Marxist Lenninism compared 2 MARXISM???

[Unrelenting Steve]

tittle says it all, I have read some lenin quotes that talks about how Marxism is all wrong and he has seen the light (it didnt go into ne idealogical detail). So thats wat im asking for!........ plz enlighten me.......

[redstar2000]

I doubt very much that there are any authentic quotes from Lenin that flatly state that "Marxism is all wrong". That sounds like the fabrication of a bourgeois propagandist.

There are, in fact, many differences between Marxism and Leninism...but Lenin always presented his views "as if" his views were shared by Marx, even when that was clearly not the case.

And that has been the situation ever since...all "Marxist-Leninists" are really Leninists who have some views in common with Marx.

What Leninists like to claim is that Lenin "developed" Marxism, or "creatively applied" Marxism to Russian conditions, or even that Leninism "is Marxism in the age of imperialism".

I'm afraid there are no "quick & easy" answers to your question; you have to actually read what Marx and Engels said and then compare those things to what Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, etc. said.

I know, that's hard work! :o

But if you don't do that work, then you end up taking someone's word for it. I've written a lot of posts on this subject...but suppose I was wrong?

Others here have defended Leninism in the phrases that I quoted above...but suppose they were wrong?

If you are serious about wanting to become a real communist, then sooner or later you have to undertake some serious theoretical work. That doesn't mean that you have to read Capital or the entire Collected Works of Lenin.

It does mean that you have to familiarize yourself with many of the shorter works of both Marx and Lenin. You also need to read two or three histories of the Russian Revolution...so you have a context to understand why Lenin, etc. took the positions they did.

You can rely on me or many others to do that work for you...or you can turn off the dummyvision and do it yourself.

I think you know which is the better choice.

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[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Hmmmm :unsure:
Are you referring to the ongoing feud around here between Anarcho-communists and Marxist-Leninists?
Leninists seek to bring the working class to power by first bringing the communist party to power, using their power to organize the proletariat centraly, and destrying the bourgeoisie. Only once the working has taken the role of ruling class in class society, can a truly egalitarian society be achieved. Am I right?
Anarchists seek to simply create a perfectly egalitarian society sprouting from a workers' revolution.
Please don't lynch me for perhaps excluding some potentialy essential details, I don't think I have, though.

[Unrelenting Steve]

it was the begining of a book called "Refuting Marx" its very bad, it doesnt make ne sense at all, It is quiet stupid.

[Saint-Just]

Lenin was an orthodox Marxist because he still saw the need to fundamentally change the economic base to change society. He subscribed to dialectical materialism and pretty much everything else Marxist... however, there were a few fundamental things he altered.

He said that Leninism was Marxism in the age the epoch of Imperialism.

He developed and critised Marxism:

1. He said that underdeveloped nations could develop a revolutionary consciousness.

2. He created the theory of the party, that a party should have a strict organisational structure and adhere to the principles of democratic centralism.

3. He created the notion of a working-class vanguard. He said: 'Class consciousness can only be brought to the workers from without [the prevailing economic structure - capitalism or feudalism].

Lenin said that in the age of imperialism, underdeveloped countries had become important in the revolutionary struggle. He also talks a lot of the working-class interest, and a group of dedicated middle-class intellectuals bringing about revolution in the working-class interest.

He also created a theory of Imperialism. That nations are pursuing economic, cultural and political imperialism. He said that this would create war, looking at what happened in 1914 and later you can see he was right.


Trotsky critisied Lenin in the 3rd party congress the, at the time, social democratic party. He affirmed his joining of the Mensheviks with this statement:

referring to Lenin's theory of the party he said:
'the organisation of the party takes the place of the party itself. The Central Committee takes the place of the organisation, the dictator takes the place of the Central Committee.'

Around this time a lot of people were criticising Lenin for his ideas, saying they deviated from Marxism, Lenin said that ammendments had to be made to Marxism to succeed. Thus the split in the party to form the Mensheviks (minority of pure Marxists) and the Bolsheviks, the majority.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

So what was Trostky's substitute for a leading communist party?, which I'm assuming he condemned since he said it causes a dictator to take power.

[Saint-Just]

Trotsky became a Bolshevik by 1917 so he did embrace the idea of a vanguard party eventually. People like Trostky, in this period, followed the pure Marxian interpretation that the working-class would gain a revolutionary consciousness themselves. However, Marx did also note that they could be helped into doing this by a party, that could educate workers, but the bulk of the enlightenment would come from alienation. Marx did not see a vangaurd of intellectuals leading the working-class into revolution from a feudal society as Lenin did, he did not see that it was possible for the workers to gain class consciousness from without.

Anyway, the key to your question is that Trotsky was not condemning the party but rather Lenin's theory of the party, specifically that it would lead the working class and impose revolution upon them. he was also criticising the idea of democratic centralism and Lenin's idea of organisation and discipline. Trotsky saw the party as far more sporadic in its influence and mainly concerned with being a small part of the catalyst for gaining a revolutionary consciousness.

But that does not mean the Mensheviks, Trotsky included, were going to sit around and wait for a communist revolution, no one wants to miss out on power. What they would rather do is create a bourgeois revolution, that would then eventually lead to a communist revolution. The Bolsheviks opted for total worker control and a socialist system of society. Not suprising most people followed Lenin because it was to go furthest, fastest in creating a socialist society, in addition Lenin was important as a leader and a theoritician.

However, Trotsky decided to follow the Leninist path much later. My quote from Lenin was rather concerned with being characteristic of the Menshevik view. They didn't have the same view of what Lenin's idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat would be.

[Don't Change Your Name]

The difference may be that Marx thought that the working class should guide a revolution together and Lenin thought that there was a need for a vanguard party that leads the revolution and that aims to take power in the name of the proletarians.