Is Macedonia Greek?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

There has been this conflict for years and it confuses me alot.Nationalists say it is Greek Macedonians say it is not.

Is Macedonia Greek?Yes or No and Why?

[Tommy4ever]

Its complicated.

This is the region of Macedonia, as it is considered today:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc433/ATTACK77/Macedonia_disambiguation.png

Now, the Republic of Macedonia (officially, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) has no connection with Greece. The people who live there speak a slavic language. Whilst they are pretty distinct from neighbouring peoples they are closest to the Bulgarians.

The real problem between Macedonia and Greece is about names and history.

The region of Macedonia is actually largely in Greece whilst the historical regional capital (Salonika) is in Greece. The ancient kingdom of Macedonia is even more firmly in Greek territory. By calling their Republic Macedonia the country infers some degree of claim over the whole territory of Macedonia and the historical figures associated with the ancient kingdom (read - Alexander the Great).

Things probably wouldn't be so bad if the Macedonians didn't insist on doing IRL nationalist trolling. In the past there have been controversies over Macedonia placing monuments on its money which were in Salonika (the city in Greece), the recently built an enormous statue of Alexander etc etc.

The Republic of Macedonia is in no way Greek. The majority of the region of Macedonia has been solidly Greek since the Turks were expelled in the 1920s and the Jews murdered in the 1940s (between the 20s and 40s Jews were actually the majority in Salonika).
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=macedonia+region&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=607&tbm=isch&tbnid=T0m-tGax5c1zgM:&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia&docid=7uEJ7msKu_k2_M&w=286&h=332&ei=Y6pSTtvqH8eu8gPLv8mtBw&zoom=1 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=macedonia+region&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=607&tbm=isch&tbnid=T0m-tGax5c1zgM:&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia&docid=7uEJ7msKu_k2_M&w=286&h=332&ei=Y6pSTtvqH8eu8gPLv8mtBw&zoom=1)http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=macedonia+region&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=607&tbm=isch&tbnid=T0m-tGax5c1zgM:&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia&docid=7uEJ7msKu_k2_M&w=286&h=332&ei=Y6pSTtvqH8eu8gPLv8mtBw&zoom=1 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Macedonia_%28disambiguation%29.png)

[syndicat]

the socalled language of macedonian is merely a dialect of Bulgiarian. calling it "Macedonian" was part of the state-building scheme of the nationalist leaders in the Republic of Macedonia. they are trying to fabricate a national history that doesn't exist.

[thefinalmarch]

Geographical regions do not belong to any nation, assuming such a thing as a nation can actually be said to exist.

[A Marxist Historian]

the socalled language of macedonian is merely a dialect of Bulgiarian. calling it "Macedonian" was part of the state-building scheme of the nationalist leaders in the Republic of Macedonia. they are trying to fabricate a national history that doesn't exist.

A language is a dialect with flags and postage stamps. Therefore Macedonian is a language. The differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian are bigger than the differences between Serbian and Croatian, which everybody accepts as two different languages these days.

And now they are trying to invent "Bosnian," publishing Bosnian dictionaries etc.

There is a national history. You have had a Macedonian nationalist movement for more than a century now, going back to when Bulgaria was independent but all Macedonia, including Salonika, was under the Turks. The Slavic speakers in the area were never sure quite sure whether they wanted to be part of Bulgaria or go independent. But during WWII, when the Bulgarians occupied what is now independent Macedonia in alliance with the Nazis, the local population said to hell with Bulgaria, and decided they were Macedonians not Bulgarians, and were perfectly happy to be part of Yugoslavia, which was supposed to be for all Slavic nationalities.

There are still quite a few Macedonians in the Greek part of Macedonia, though they are definitely a minority. During and after the Second Balkan War in 1912, which Bulgaria lost and Greece won, a lot of the Slavs in the Greek half of Macedonia were kicked out or killed. The survivors lie low, as it isn't quite legal to speak Macedonian in public. Greece is very nationalist.

-M.H.-

[Magdalen]

A language is a dialect with flags and postage stamps. Therefore Macedonian is a language. The differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian are bigger than the differences between Serbian and Croatian, which everybody accepts as two different languages these days.

And now they are trying to invent "Bosnian," publishing Bosnian dictionaries etc.

There is a national history. You have had a Macedonian nationalist movement for more than a century now, going back to when Bulgaria was independent but all Macedonia, including Salonika, was under the Turks. The Slavic speakers in the area were never sure quite sure whether they wanted to be part of Bulgaria or go independent. But during WWII, when the Bulgarians occupied what is now independent Macedonia in alliance with the Nazis, the local population said to hell with Bulgaria, and decided they were Macedonians not Bulgarians, and were perfectly happy to be part of Yugoslavia, which was supposed to be for all Slavic nationalities.

There are still quite a few Macedonians in the Greek part of Macedonia, though they are definitely a minority. During and after the Second Balkan War in 1912, which Bulgaria lost and Greece won, a lot of the Slavs in the Greek half of Macedonia were kicked out or killed. The survivors lie low, as it isn't quite legal to speak Macedonian in public. Greece is very nationalist.

-M.H.-

According to Wikipedia, Slavic Macedonian culture in Greece experienced a brief renaissance in areas under Communist control during the Greek Civil War in the late 1940s, with Macedonian schools and theatres being established. A leading Communist organiser, Andreas Tsipas or Andreja Čipov, was of Macedonian extraction. During the subsequent monarchist regime, many Macedonians fled losing their property and citizenship, and most of these institutions were closed or destroyed. Apparently there is evidence of several villages being co-erced into taking 'language oaths', renouncing their indigenous culture altogether.

Nowadays their exists a relatively small organisation called the Rainbow Party which represents the Slavic Macedonian community (in the past it has operated in alliance with elements of the Greek Left). However, their calls for Macedonian to be re-introduced into the education system have fallen upon deaf ears, and it seems that Slavic Macedonian activists are often seen as pro-Skopje separatists, even if the Rainbow Party denies this. There is certainly still some repression against the Slavic Macedonians today, particularly from ultra-nationalists - just last week, an Orthodox priest called for a Macedonian-language radio station in Florina/Lerin to be burnt down.

[chegitz guevara]

In ancient time, Macedonians were barbarians who became Hellenized. This is why Phillip and Alexander, who had not a drop of Greek blood in them, are consider Greeks by the Greeks. Macedonia became largely Slavic during the Serbian invasions of the Roman Byzantine) Empire. It remained mostly Slavic until the Ottomans conquered the area, and waves of Turkish colonists settled the region. Salonika remained Greek, however, until the expulsion of the Jews from Spain. Many settled in Solonika, and until the Jews were deported by the Nazis in 1944, Ladino, a Jewish Spanish dialect, was the majority language there.

Starting in the late 17th Century, the Ottomans fought a number of losing wars in the Balkans, and Turks began moving out of the region. Bulgarians began moving in. When the Ottomans lost the whole region, Greece got part, Serbia got part, and Bulgaria got part. That's when the area started become Greek again. But for nearly a thousand years, Macedonia wasn't Greek.

[Nox]

Greek Nationalists are fucking crying about the name of another country, why the fuck does it even matter? It really shows that nationalists have all their priorities wrong...

[chegitz guevara]

BTW, until independence from the Ottomans, Greeks called themselves Romani, Romans. When they became their own country, nationalists started saying, 'you're not Romans, you're Hellenes.' After which, the Vlachs took the name Roman for themselves. Romania used to be Greece. Now it's Moldavia/Wallachia.

[syndicat]

A language is a dialect with flags and postage stamps. Therefore Macedonian is a language. The differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian are bigger than the differences between Serbian and Croatian, which everybody accepts as two different languages these days.


uh no. the language is called serbocroatian for a reason.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Is Macedonia Greek?

Is Kosovo Serbia?

All of this at the end of the day, is petty nationalistic squabbling. All of these territories have been inhabited by so many nationalities it is quite pointless to argue over it anymore. Yes Macedonia was once "Greek". It was also part of the Roman empire, Byzantine empire, Ottoman empire, and the medieval Serbian empire. Yet it's Macedonia, not any of the above, today.


uh no. the language is called serbocroatian for a reason.

It is basically the same language. But within different national territories it is considered to be distinct. Politically distinct that is. Marxist Historian has a point.

In Croatia, you speak Croatian. In Serbia, you speak Serbian. It's stupid but that's how it is.

There's also the matter of Serbia using the Cyrillic alphabet while Croatia doesn't.

[DarkPast]

Personally, I couldn't care less.

The Communists are further reproached with desiring to abolish countries and nationality. The working men have no country.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

[electro_fan]

the socalled language of macedonian is merely a dialect of Bulgiarian. calling it "Macedonian" was part of the state-building scheme of the nationalist leaders in the Republic of Macedonia. they are trying to fabricate a national history that doesn't exist.
it doesnt change the fact that that national identity is there now though.

[Tim Finnegan]

uh no. the language is called serbocroatian for a reason.
I think that you're missing his point ever so slightly.

[manic expression]

There's also the matter of Serbia using the Cyrillic alphabet while Croatia doesn't.
Off topic but I heard Croatian right-wingers were actually trying to bring back the old glagolitic script just to differentiate Croatian from rest of Serbocroatian...ridiculous.

[syndicat]

a comrade in my group is from Yugoslavia. he still calls it that. vehemently refuses to accept the breakup. his family was from Sarajevo (now part of Bosnia), he has a Serbian passport, and his mother lives on the Dalmatian coast (in Croatia). he tells me that he can understand Bulgarian...it is not so far off from Serbocroatian. he believes the idea of a Balkan Federation is still a viable concept.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Off topic but I heard Croatian right-wingers were actually trying to bring back the old glagolitic script just to differentiate Croatian from rest of Serbocroatian...ridiculous.

I've never heard that. That is quite pathetic, since it would never work.


a comrade in my group is from Yugoslavia. he still calls it that. vehemently refuses to accept the breakup. his family was from Sarajevo (now part of Bosnia), he has a Serbian passport, and his mother lives on the Dalmatian coast (in Croatia). he tells me that he can understand Bulgarian...it is not so far off from Serbocroatian. he believes the idea of a Balkan Federation is still a viable concept.

i think it is as well. Just like a socialist federation of the entire world is a viable concept.

However that doesn't mean the political situation in the Balkans is anywhere near such a thing. If anything, the Balkan countries are moving away from any kind of international/transnational unity.

[Nox]

If anything, the Balkan countries are moving away from any kind of international/transnational unity.

Hell yeah, the situation in the Balkans is pretty fucked up, from what I know, everyone hates everyone else pretty much.

[Forward Union]

However that doesn't mean the political situation in the Balkans is anywhere near such a thing. If anything, the Balkan countries are moving away from any kind of international/transnational unity.

Except that they all want to join the EU.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Hell yeah, the situation in the Balkans is pretty fucked up, from what I know, everyone hates everyone else pretty much.

That's not quite true. Some would see it that way though. Lots of folks in the Balkans are tolerant of others. It comes with the close proximity i guess.


Except that they all want to join the EU.

Hahah that is the only exception. However i think its a dead end goal. It might not even happen. i for one doubt that Macedonia, or for that matter Serbia, will ever join the EU. Surely, the working people of said countries are against it.

[Tim Finnegan]

Except that they all want to join the EU.
Is that the same thing, ideologically, as specifically regional transnational organisation, though? I imagine that the whole thing becomes an easier pill to swallow when they can claim that they're not having to make nice with Serbia and Montenegro and Croatia, they're making nice with France and Germany and Italy, and, oh yeah, those other jerks happened to turn up as well.

[Thirsty Crow]

uh no. the language is called serbocroatian for a reason.
There is no language called serbocroatian nowadays, and I think that the UN list of spoken languages includes both Serbian and Croatian as distinct languages.

Though, just to make it clear, there is no nationalism underpinning this statement of mine. I agree fully what MH stated, that (official) languages are in fact dialects with postal stamps and flags. The two languages (Macedonian and Bulgarian) in fact differ to a greater extent than Croatian and Serbian, which are genetically related languages, so it doesn't make sense to conclude that the language spoken in contemporary FYROM is in fact Bulgarian. Any way this could make sense would be to adopt a Bulgarian nationalist viewpoint, although, of course, the languages are closely related.

[Welshy]

uh no. the language is called serbocroatian for a reason.

The underlying point is that the distinction between languages and dialects tends to be rather subjective. In the case of Macedonian, even though it's similar enough to Bulgarian for both languages to be dialects of the same language, because Macedonia exists as a country the dialect spoken with in its borders has been raised to the level of language for nationalistic reasons. It's a similar situation to northern europe where the Standard dialects for Scandinavian languages are consider separate languages despite the fact they are similar enough to be dialects of the same language.

[Commissar Rykov]

Yes finally a debate about Balkan Nationalism! Actually no this is horrible and honestly having dealt with Balkan Nationalists it isn't very pleasant especially if you are a smartass like myself.

[A Marxist Historian]

uh no. the language is called serbocroatian for a reason.

Not in Serbia or Croatia.

-M.H.-

[syndicat]

the language used to be called serbocroation. it is mutually intelligible...as are macedonian and bulgarian...or catalan and valenciano...or, i'm told, the language spoken around Oslo (bokmal dialect of Norwegian) and Danish. mutual intelligibility is a more objective standard for "the same language".

of course the names they are given or used in a region has its political dimension.

[A Marxist Historian]

the language used to be called serbocroation. it is mutually intelligible...as are macedonian and bulgarian...or catalan and valenciano...or, i'm told, the language spoken around Oslo (bokmal dialect of Norwegian) and Danish. mutual intelligibility is a more objective standard for "the same language".

of course the names they are given or used in a region has its political dimension.

That gets tricky too.

How about Russian and Ukrainian? Russian is intelligible to Ukrainian speakers. Ukrainian is *not* intelligible to Russian speakers.

Or the famous example Engels wrote about somewhere, I forget where.

Take a town in the Netherlands, circa the early 19th Century. Draw a straight line on a map to a town in Bavaria. Along that line, every town speaks a dialect mutually intelligible with that of the town on either side of it.

The town in the Netherlands speaks Dutch. The town in Bavaria speaks German. Not mutually intelligible at all.

At what point, as the dialecticians put it, does a dialect turn into a language, and quantity turn into quality?

At the point where one particular dialect acquires a flag and postage stamps.

-M.H.-