The Dificulty of Defending My Ideology

[Battlecat]

As we all know, it's hard being a communist. We're constantly questioned about our beliefs, told we're idealists or told that we're dictators. However, we do have combacks to these arguments, I assume. Detailed responses and counter arguments to be made to cappies who question us. Thing is, I don't know how to defend communism properly, so I decided to ask you, revleft, to help me with anything the reactionary puppets of the bourgeoisie throw at me.

Basically, how do I counter the following arguments?

1. Greed will always exist, and has always existed. People always want more, ever since we lived in tribal society: There was always a chief with the biggest hut, nicest wife and largest stick

2. How will we decide who does what in a communist society? Also, how will distribution work? What if the people of the local soviet don't like a person, will they get less then everyone else?

3. Who will take all the shitty jobs no one wants? Such as being a janitor, working as a cleaner and such?

I've read the High School Commies Guide, briefly, but couldn't find the exact answers I'm looking for. So, could one of you fine comrades on this website help me out with these questions, or at least point me to similar threads/posts that have the answers?

EDIT: Damn, I spelt difficulty wrong. Could some kind mod please change it?

[Wubbaz]

1. Greed will always exist, and has always existed. People always want more, ever since we lived in tribal society: There was always a chief with the biggest hut, nicest wife and largest stick

Surely greed has always existed and surely greed will always exist. I don't think any serious revolutionary leftist would think that greed would disappear in some magical way in a socialist/communist society. I think that all people want to live in a dynamic society, where new inventions, products and gadgets constantly are developed and produced.

In other words: People crave for a constant stream of novelty items. I think that you should point out, that while all people surely are greedy by varying degrees, personal traits such as cooperation, solidarity and likewise have meant much more than greed. I mean, really: If all people were just greedy bastards who could only think for themselves, why even bother to create a civilazation? Why do people show signs of altruism under capitalism then?


2. How will we decide who does what in a communist society? Also, how will distribution work? What if the people of the local soviet don't like a person, will they get less then everyone else?

All this will be decided by the proletariat once it takes control of society. Planning out how to do stuff in communism is utopian. There are hundreds of ways to organize society with common ownership of the means of production, and when the time comes, I think we should be able to decide on the best way - through real democracy.


3. Who will take all the shitty jobs no one wants? Such as being a janitor, working as a cleaner and such?

In a socialist/communist society, technology would be used to reduce the working time for people. The jobs you mentioned would most likely be undertaken by all people, or taken over be technology.

[RedAtheist]

If all people were just greedy bastards who could only think for themselves, why even bother to create a civilazation?

'think for themselves', don't we want people to do that? Be carefull how you phrase things. :p

Good response overall, but you didn't address the issue of how to stop greedy people from ruining socialism/communism, which is a key problem.

If you don't mind, could you respond to the list of objections to socialism which I posted on the 'High School Commie's Guide' thread?

[#FF0000]

I always thought that point about civilization that Wubbaz brought up was interesting. Humans formed social groups in the first place because it was better than going it alone, so what sense does it make to get rid of things like social safety nets and unemployment when the entire point of "society" is to make life easier for everyone?

I never understood the "people are greedy" thing either. First of all, greed is not the same as self-interest. Greed is self-interest taken to the point that it's no longer self-interest, and harmful to the person and those around him/her. As far as self-interest goes, I would say that communism is 100% about self-interest. I'm a working class person. Isn't it in my interests to establish a society where I'm not exploited, and abolish one in which I am?

[Zealot]

Arguments? This is run-of-the-mill shit that people like to fling around



1. Greed will always exist, and has always existed. People always want more, ever since we lived in tribal society: There was always a chief with the biggest hut, nicest wife and largest stick

I have a hard time believing that every human on earth wants more than they need. Bill Gates has more money than he knows what to do with which makes his massive sum of wealth an essentially useless trophy that would be better spent elsewhere. Ironically, this argument works against capitalism because let us look at the system for what it really is; a reliance upon a class of people who need more but can never have more. If everyone in the world was a capitalist there would be no capitalism, because who would be left to exploit?

2. How will we decide who does what in a communist society? Also, how will distribution work? What if the people of the local soviet don't like a person, will they get less then everyone else?
Democracy.
3. Who will take all the shitty jobs no one wants? Such as being a janitor, working as a cleaner and such?

The same people who do it now? Why not, I've actually met a few cleaners who made quite good money doing it. What Wubbaz said is also a possibility.

[Thirsty Crow]

The same people who do it now? Why not, I've actually met a few cleaners who made quite good money doing it. What Wubbaz said is also a possibility.
I think that Wubazz's suggestion is far superior to the notion of such jobs being a profession. In other words, it's not a possibility, but a necessity, in my opinion, that technological advance and the recomposition of work funtion towards a decrease in working hours and eliminating dangerous/menial jobs.

[maya]

1. Greed will always exist, and has always existed. People always want more, ever since we lived in tribal society: There was always a chief with the biggest hut, nicest wife and largest stick

Greed will exist. So will theft, murder and every other negative emotion.

What changes under socialism is the relation between people. Capitalism makes greed good. It is good to be grasping, to envy and to dominate others. A socialist system must be founded on the idea that the people cannot be bought and sold.

Without the perverse incentives that capitalism creates, the extremes between rich and poor, powerful and not-powerful, are diminished.

2. How will we decide who does what in a communist society? Also, how will distribution work?

Rational and democratic production and distribution.

Production and distribution of goods can be done in a rational, scientific way. There are entire fields of science and mathematics dedicated to this. Corporations employee these complex planning techniques to generate profit.

Distribution can be democratic. Under capitalism, it is possible to protest the government and make issues and grevenices known, but the most common form of 'democracy' is special interest lobbying by corporations. They twist the system to allocate resources to their particular interests, based on influence of 'elected' politicians.

In socialism, the government will be where the people come together in a mutally benefitial way, not corporations.

What if the people of the local soviet don't like a person, will they get less then everyone else?

There will always be conflict between people. But socialism gurantees rights to every single person, and with the rational distribution of goods will not take into consideration if they are 'liked' or not.

3. Who will take all the shitty jobs no one wants? Such as being a janitor, working as a cleaner and such?

Why is being a janitor a shitty job? The heirarchical nature of capitalism forces people to think in terms of rank, as if society is a massive army. In a socialist society, all labor is given the respect it deserves.

That is not to say there cannot be incentives, just that those incentives will be aimed a peaceful, productive work rather than the greed-fuelled aggression that drives modern capitalism.

[Hit The North]

Surely greed has always existed and surely greed will always exist. I don't think any serious revolutionary leftist would think that greed would disappear in some magical way in a socialist/communist society.


Firstly you need to define what you mean by "greed" and secondly you need to show how this greed has been an ever-present universal trait of human beings. How, for instance, does the average individual express greed in a pre-industrial society where commodity exchange is peripheral to average social existence?

I think you'll find that the idea that greed is a universal and eternal human trait is an abstraction typical of bourgeois ideology.


I think that all people want to live in a dynamic society, where new inventions, products and gadgets constantly are developed and produced.

In other words: People crave for a constant stream of novelty items. Again, you are making the mistake of seeing present social convention as somehow a result of human nature rather than human history. What might be true of many people in present day capitalist society is not necessarily true of people who lived in non capitalist societies. So, for instance, what "constant stream of novelty items" was available to satisfy the desires of a feudal peasant?

As Marx argued in the German Ideology, "What individuals are, therefore, depends on the material conditions of their production." The acquisitive individual is a function of the capitalist mode of production and the consumerism that necessarily arises from it. Because our mission is to transcend this mode of production, our mission is also to transcend the conditions in which greed is a defining characteristic of social life.

[Delenda Carthago]

1. Greed will always exist, and has always existed. People always want more, ever since we lived in tribal society: There was always a chief with the biggest hut, nicest wife and largest stick

First of all, considering "the nicest wife" as a motherfuckin trophy is sexism on its purest fuckin sence. Women are not to be considered something you own. And that goes for the stupidity of "well, in communism we will share anything, so you gonna share your wife too"? And this is something that goes way back, since Marx wrote about it in Manifesto.

Other than that, there is not intignation that humans are greedy. There have been many societies that the moral factor of greed was not present(primitive communism). If something is sure about human nature, is that it is completly adjustable to the frame it has to adjust. Throw two twins, one in thw jungle and one in a bourgeois family and you will get... Tarzan and Nicola Tesla. The same with ownership. Teach a society that owning things is the key to happiness, and you have a society of bankers, robbers, blackmailers etc. Teach them that one's freedom begins where the other one's too, and you get different results.


3. Who will take all the shitty jobs no one wants? Such as being a janitor, working as a cleaner and such?

Thats a nice question. Today's technology through automation minimizes the efford needed for these kind of labour. This in capitalism means unemployntment, in communism it means that people are liberated by the unwanted labour and can focus on their true dedication: being e scientist and an artist.


Remember:These type of questions tend to dissapear the more class struggle rises up. I havent had to make these convertations for more than 3 years now. And this is because the more people see the type of struggles you give for the everyday stuff, the more they understand what you want. So in a way, the best way to answer them, is by your everyday struggle.

[Wubbaz]

Firstly you need to define what you mean by "greed" and secondly you need to show how this greed has been an ever-present universal trait of human beings. How, for instance, does the average individual express greed in a pre-industrial society where commodity exchange is peripheral to average social existence?

Sorry, I am confusing greed with self-interest. I think that #FF0000 does a much better job at explaining greed than I do.


Again, you are making the mistake of seeing present social convention as somehow a result of human nature rather than human history. What might be true of many people in present day capitalist society is not necessarily true of people who lived in non capitalist societies. So, for instance, what "constant stream of novelty items" was available to satisfy the desires of a feudal peasant?

I think a major difference between feudal society and socialist/communist society is that the needs for clothing, housing and food would be satifised for the whole of the populace in the latter. I may not be an expert historican, but I do believe that a feudal peasant simply did not have the time for even thinking about things such as novelty items. In a socialist/communist society, the labor time would be considerably lower than that of the feudal peasant, and with his basic needs covered, the worker would seek to satisfy the needs for things such as novelty items.

Well, atleast that is my theory. :)

[Hit The North]

Sorry, I am confusing greed with self-interest. I think that #FF0000 does a much better job at explaining greed than I do.


Yes, it is an important distinction to make. Self-interest can lead to all kinds of behaviour and this will depend on the circumstances. As maya points out, it is the relation between people that matters, where self-interest coincides with solidarity with others and coincides with the harmonious, rather than conflictual, relationships between people.

I think greed coincides with a number of psychological problems which are experienced by individuals but caused by capitalist society. Individuals who demonstrate greedy consumption, gorging on too much junk food or buying ridiculous bling, are quite often compensating for self-esteem issues, social estrangement, etc. Greedy over-consumption leading to obesity or gratuitous displays of conspicuous consumption, are not seen to represent a balanced approach to life, even under capitalism.


I think a major difference between feudal society and socialist/communist society is that the needs for clothing, housing and food would be satifised for the whole of the populace in the latter. I may not be an expert historican, but I do believe that a feudal peasant simply did not have the time for even thinking about things such as novelty items. In a socialist/communist society, the labor time would be considerably lower than that of the feudal peasant, and with his basic needs covered, the worker would seek to satisfy the needs for things such as novelty items.

Well, atleast that is my theory. :)

This was kind of my point - or more accurately, Marx's point. The human condition is historically determined, meaning that different social epochs create different kinds of individuals. The fixation on technological novelty might continue under socialism, but it is a comparatively recent phenomenon - and one which arises with a mode of life based on the production and exchange of commodities (i.e. capitalism). The reason the feudal peasant wasn't interested in a "constant stream of novelty items" is that they simply didn't exist. But, more than that, Feudal society was based on the slow grind of tradition and technological innovation was extremely slow. A constant stream of novelty would confuse the feudal individual and destabilise the social fabric to which he belongs. On the other hand, we live under an advanced capitalist society where the pace of technological change is getting faster and where rapid consumption is crucial to the perpetuation of the socio-economic system. No wonder we have become individuals who find exhilaration in novelty.

Incidentally, your average feudal peasant may have spent less time labouring than your average proletarian wage slave.