APL and PSL

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

What can members tell me of the American Party of Labour and the Party for Socialism and Liberation? I'm currently trying to find a national party in the states that I wish to join and work with. Points of interest would be numbers, level of activity, group dedication, history, party commitments, etc. things of that general nature.

[Red Future]

The APL produces a good newspaper The Red Phoenix..the online content is pretty good and manageable,I used to read its articles in my lunch breaks at college.

http://theredphoenixapl.org/

I don't know much about the PSL but they are numerically bigger (in terms of numbers and active branches than the APL.Kassad I thinkwasa member.

[Property Is Robbery]

Check out the PSL group on this site or go to the website for more info.

(http://www.revleft.com/vb/pslweb.org)pslweb.org (http://pslweb.org)

[The Douche]

APL has less than 100 members. Its not really a party, more like a group trying to organize into a party.

PSL is probably the only communist party in the US that remotely matters.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

APL has less than 100 members. Its not really a party, more like a group trying to organize into a party.

Are you talking about the usergroup here on Revleft or the actual group in reality?

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Are you talking about the usergroup here on Revleft or the actual group in reality?

The actual group in reality. If you want a large and active ML party, I'd say PSL is probably your best bet. Though I've been told they still read Permanent Revolution or some other Trotsky book, I'm not sure if they still hold to any Trotsky theory. My perception of them has always been that of an ML party.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

PSL is probably the only communist party in the US that remotely matters.

In what sense?

The WSWS matters to the extent that it's website is one of the most visited on the internet.

The CPUSA matters to the extent that it prints a lot of "classics" and brings in money and votes for the Democrats.

The WWP matters to the extent that it organizes a lot of activist fronts and builds support for politicians from the Green Party and Democrats.

Etc.

[Rusty Shackleford]

PSL = Pan Socialist Brezhnevites
APL = Bunkerists

:lol:

PSL is a party of work. we work. we dont just sit around and theorize and stuff all day. (yes, we have educational candidacy period that is 12 weeks/6months or however long you need) We have weekly meetings at most established branches and forums and conferences and stuff but its all geared towards increasing our ability to take and make effective action.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

The actual group in reality. If you want a large and active ML party, I'd say PSL is probably your best bet. Though I've been told they still read Permanent Revolution or some other Trotsky book, I'm not sure if they still hold to any Trotsky theory. My perception of them has always been that of an ML party.

That's why I have some reservations about the PSL, their historical support of Trotsky(ism) and this 'Marcyite' (whatever that means) jazz.


PSL = Pan Socialist Brezhnevites

Eh?



APL = Bunkerists


This seems more appealing than the above, lol.


PSL is a party of work. we work. we dont just sit around and theorize and stuff all day. (yes, we have educational candidacy period that is 12 weeks/6months or however long you need) We have weekly meetings at most established branches and forums and conferences and stuff but its all geared towards increasing our ability to take and make effective action.

I will say this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for.

I had read that the numbers of the APL are low due to their stringent acceptance policy in the attempts to only recruit the best of the best cadre.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Oh some APL dude tried to recruit me and called the PSL Pan Socialist Brezhnevites.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

increasing our ability to take and make effective action.

Can you list some of the PSL's "effective action"?

[black magick hustla]

PSL is probably the only communist party in the US that remotely matters.

not really. even among the "ostentibly" communist parties and among useless activist rituals, the psl is not the most visible. i see more ISOites and Solidarity-ites than PSLites on the streets, which do basically the same shit that the PSL does except they actually have a labor union prescence. the psl is insignificant

[#FF0000]

not really. even among the "ostentibly" communist parties and among useless activist rituals, the psl is not the most visible. i see more ISOites and Solidarity-ites than PSLites on the streets, which do basically the same shit that the PSL does except they actually have a labor union prescence. the psl is insignificant


they got lots of votes in that one election one time though

[manic expression]

Can you list some of the PSL's "effective action"?
As a leading part of the most vocal and active anti-imperialist (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/thousands-march-nyc-april-9.html) coalition (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/san-francisco-protest.html) in the US, action against (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/oakland-march-killer-cop.html) police (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/hundreds-protest-fullerton.html) brutality (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/say-no-to-law-enforcement.html), in solidarity (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/verizon-workers-determined-to.html) with union (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/mass-action-hyatt-workers.html) struggles (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/grocery-workers-march-on.html), opposing capitalist crimes (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/protesters-denounce-bailed.html) against (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/picketers-confront-racism-continental-bar-nyc.html) the workers, in solidarity with LGBT rights (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/thousands-march-for-lgbt.html), in solidarity with international socialism (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/cuban-revolution-celebrated.html).

[Uncle Rob]

What can members tell me of the American Party of Labour and the Party for Socialism and Liberation? I'm currently trying to find a national party in the states that I wish to join and work with. Points of interest would be numbers, level of activity, group dedication, history, party commitments, etc. things of that general nature.

As an affiliate of the APL I can tell you this:

a.) It is not my place to disclose the amount of people involved with our party. However I will say our numbers are small. However do remember, a party is most characterized by it's influence, not it's numbers.

b.) In terms of activity we are very active, and activity is demanded by our membership. We have weekly meetings, several divisions that span across the U.S. and both online and live classes. In terms of education; we are second to none.

c.) The APL membership is highly dedicated for we consider ourselves to be the only representatives of anti-revisionist Marxist-Leninism in the United States. As such we do a lot in order to distinguish ourselves from the other would-be ML parties such as the PSL and the CPUSA. Not only that but because our numbers are small the membership has a sense of duty in terms of helping the party grow which is currently one of our primary objectives.

d.) In terms of history I am not the one to ask. I'm relatively new and have yet to delve into such questions.

e.) Party membership is expected to, above all, work towards growing the party. For the most part you do what you are good at, be it writing, agitation, organizing website design, teaching or whatever. Our educational classes are compulsory to assure our cadres are "on the same page" so to speak as to not send mixed messages to the broader working class as some pan-leftist parties do.


I would also mention that I previously tried to join the PSL. The contact in particular seemed egar to get me started but eventually stopped contacting me altogether which prevented me from becoming a full member. I've spoken with some of the PSL's leadership on numerous occasions and attended several of their meetings. For the most part they are a bright and jolly group of fellows. However, what finally lead to my disillusionment of the PSL is when I reproached a member of the leadership on the question of theory and practice. As Shackleford so rightly expressed, they do not sit around and theorize all day. In fact they specifically feel no need to theorize at all. You'll notice that they have no theoretical journal and their publications are mostly concerned with clarifications on which "socialist" country they support etc. The PSL is weak on theory and their pan-leftism does not help this one iota. To me it seems they avoid theoretical questions altogether for if they didn't it would probably lead to some ideological split. These characteristics lead me to two conclusions

1.) Their unwillingness (or perhaps inability?) to address issues of theory will lead them and is already leading them to vulgar econonism.

2.) If they were to rectify this I could see no other consequence than a split for up until now they have allowed such a broad membership. The PSL has everything between Democrats and Trotskyists. Assuming that they continue as they have been, when a revolutionary situation arises, they will probably split because membership will be torn as to what the proper course of action to take and will therefore inhibit it's ability to lead properly.

Of course the above criticisms are my own and do not reflect the views of the APL. I am also aware that my convictions my be incorrect, but this is the PSL as they have shown me through their actions.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Can you list some of the PSL's "effective action"?
oh looks like you got me there!

i said


towards increasing our ability to take and make effective action.

Jeremy Marks Defense Committee Victory (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/victory-in-jeremy-marks-case.html)

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

As an affiliate of the APL I can tell you this:

a.) It is not my place to disclose the amount of people involved with our party. However I will say our numbers are small. However do remember, a party is most characterized by it's influence, not it's numbers.

b.) In terms of activity we are very active, and activity is demanded by our membership. We have weekly meetings, several divisions that span across the U.S. and both online and live classes. In terms of education; we are second to none.

c.) The APL membership is highly dedicated for we consider ourselves to be the only representatives of anti-revisionist Marxist-Leninism in the United States. As such we do a lot in order to distinguish ourselves from the other would-be ML parties such as the PSL and the CPUSA. Not only that but because our numbers are small the membership has a sense of duty in terms of helping the party grow which is currently one of our primary objectives.

d.) In terms of history I am not the one to ask. I'm relatively new and have yet to delve into such questions.

e.) Party membership is expected to, above all, work towards growing the party. For the most part you do what you are good at, be it writing, agitation, organizing website design, teaching or whatever. Our educational classes are compulsory to assure our cadres are "on the same page" so to speak as to not send mixed messages to the broader working class as some pan-leftist parties do.


I would also mention that I previously tried to join the PSL. The contact in particular seemed egar to get me started but eventually stopped contacting me altogether which prevented me from becoming a full member. I've spoken with some of the PSL's leadership on numerous occasions and attended several of their meetings. For the most part they are a bright and jolly group of fellows. However, what finally lead to my disillusionment of the PSL is when I reproached a member of the leadership on the question of theory and practice. As Shackleford so rightly expressed, they do not sit around and theorize all day. In fact they specifically feel no need to theorize at all. You'll notice that they have no theoretical journal and their publications are mostly concerned with clarifications on which "socialist" country they support etc. The PSL is weak on theory and their pan-leftism does not help this one iota. To me it seems they avoid theoretical questions altogether for if they didn't it would probably lead to some ideological split. These characteristics lead me to two conclusions

1.) Their unwillingness (or perhaps inability?) to address issues of theory will lead them and is already leading them to vulgar econonism.

2.) If they were to rectify this I could see no other consequence than a split for up until now they have allowed such a broad membership. The PSL has everything between Democrats and Trotskyists. Assuming that they continue as they have been, when a revolutionary situation arises, they will probably split because membership will be torn as to what the proper course of action to take and will therefore inhibit it's ability to lead properly.

Of course the above criticisms are my own and do not reflect the views of the APL. I am also aware that my convictions my be incorrect, but this is the PSL as they have shown me through their actions.

I just wanted to thank you comrade for your input, it has been most helpful.

[Roach]

PSL is a party of work. we work. we dont just sit around and theorize and stuff all day.

I don't think that that is actually a good thing to say, nor a good thing to a party to be proud of, a Marxist-Leninist should know that correct theory leads to efficient action, and incorrect theory leads to bad results, if you dont believe in that, why even call yourself Marxist?

[The Douche]

not really. even among the "ostentibly" communist parties and among useless activist rituals, the psl is not the most visible. i see more ISOites and Solidarity-ites than PSLites on the streets, which do basically the same shit that the PSL does except they actually have a labor union prescence. the psl is insignificant

I'm not here to defend the PSL.

But I have literally never met a solidarity member in real life, at least not one who identified themselves as such. And I haven't encountered any ISO people in a while, though I used to see them a lot.


Strength of communist groupings varies a lot by region.

[Communist]

I don't think that that is actually a good thing to say, nor a good thing to a party to be proud of, a Marxist-Leninist should know that correct theory leads to efficient action, and incorrect theory leads to bad results, if you dont believe in that, why even call yourself Marxist?
Exactly. Theory and work are inseparable dialectically. Without theory, work is pointless.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Did i say we dont look at theory? I said we have functions for that but we arent the IMT or whatever. We arent a debate society. It doesnt mean we dont work on theoretical development of members.

[Weezer]

I'm not a Stalinist, but I think the APL is really cool. Their About Us section on their website was one of the best defenses and explanations of socialism ever. Sadly, they are not a party, they're an e-Party.

The PSL is pretty great and is a real party, though I feel they should merge with Worker's World. The PSL and the SPUSA are the only parties active in my area.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I asked about "effective action." Effective is the key word there. So...


As a leading part of the most vocal and active anti-imperialist coalition in the US

Has that been effective in eliminating U.S. imperialism?


action against police brutality

Has that been effective in ending police brutality?


in solidarity with union struggles

Has that been effective in winning those struggles?

I won't go on. We can all see just how "effective" the PSL has been.

[Uncle Rob]

I'm not a Stalinist, but I think the APL is really cool. Their About Us section on their website was one of the best defenses and explanations of socialism ever. Sadly, they are not a party, they're an e-Party

No we're not.

[Weezer]

No we're not.

Membership count? What do you guys do IRL?

[Uncle Rob]

Membership count? What do you guys do IRL?

As I said in my previous post, It is not my place to disclose membership numbers. Doing so would be a breach of discipline.

A recent example of our activity would be our work with the Verizon strike. We were one of the first party's to participate with the IBEW in the strike when in first occurred on the 7th.

As any party, we are doing things in order to gain traction. Our divisions deal with the struggles in their locality and when national things occur we send cadres to conduct agitation and organizational work (I.e. The Verizon strike, The Lybia anti-intervention protest, etc etc.)in addition to our live classes.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Strength of communist groupings varies a lot by region.

This is absolutely true. For instance, the only groups which exist in any real sense of the term as activists and leaders in political struggles in the community are the ISO and Solidarity here in Atlanta. And our local Solidarity has had some major problems with discipline and infighting. We also have an RCP branch which comes out to a lot of protests but doesn't really organize. Same can be said for the SWP. And the local WWP is essentially non-existent and can only be mentioned due to the woman who runs the IAC here in Atlanta and does a great job of organizing and building various movements and publicizing the WWP at them by handing out papers. I've met two APL folks once. They were from bum-fuck-nowhere North Georgia and came down to Atlanta to hand out flyers at an anti-war demo dressed in non-matching suit coats and suit pants with red dress shirts and black ties, fedoras, and black gloves. In the summer. In Atlanta. And then they left once the march got started. It was a weird experience. The PSL and SPUSA don't exist here. There was a brief attempt at starting a CPUSA branch. The only real open DSA folks are a guy who's involved with labor and two twenty-somethings who got to a bunch of protests and just hang out with eachother but always wear DSA stuff. Oh, and I think there's some CCDS folks in town too.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What ideologies do the APL allow into their group? It is for Stalinists and Trostskyists and/or somewhere in between?

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

What ideologies do the APL allow into their group? It is for Stalinists and Trostskyists and/or somewhere in between?

Someone can correct me if I am mistaken here but I believe the APL is ML anti-revisionist. I don't think they would agree much with Trotsky and the like.

[Imposter Marxist]

Workers World Party is a really good party, and its active in many cities. The PSL is comparable to the WWP politically. We've actually been growing a lot in recent months. We're a Marxist-Leninist organization and we're look for new people to join, or even just work with us, to help build up a real left movement in the US.

Honestly, I recommend just working with whatever is in your area. It is better to be involved with something than isolated doing nothing.

Message me if you have any questions.

[Nuvem]

Yeah, APL is Hoxha-brand anti-Revisionist. Very small party as far as I'm aware. The PSL is a great party, as is the Workers World Party- they hold the same party line in virtually everything and why the PSL split from the WWP is still baffling and asinine to me. In any case, I would personally go for the WWP, PSL or FRSO. All great parties with quite similar lines, all Marxist-Leninist. Were I you, I would base my decision for the time being on whichever party has a stronger base in your area. Who knows, they may end up merging in time anyway. At least that's what my colleagues and I are working at.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yes, The WWP PSL and FRSO have very similar lines.

As for mergers, they do happen from time to time. Im pretty sure all 3 parties have a clause in their constitutions about mergers.

[Weezer]

Yes, The WWP PSL and FRSO have very similar lines.

As for mergers, they do happen from time to time. Im pretty sure all 3 parties have a clause in their constitutions about mergers.

The most bizarre sectarianism I've ever seen is from the FRSO.

There is the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (www.frso.org/), and then there is the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (www.freedomroad.org/).

That's right. Same name. Different websites.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The most bizarre sectarianism I've ever seen is from the FRSO.

There is the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (http://www.frso.org/), and then there is the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (http://www.freedomroad.org/).

That's right. Same name. Different websites.
Fight Back and OSCL

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Honestly, I recommend just working with whatever is in your area. It is better to be involved with something than isolated doing nothing."To be for a moment in a minority with a correct programme – quoad organization – is still better than to have a big but thereby almost nominal semblance of a following." - Engels

[eyeheartlenin]

Both FRSO's reportedly backed Obama in the last election, and one of the things the Obama administration did was to repress pro-Palestinian activists in the US through scary Federal intimidation, which seems a mite ungrateful, given that the FRSO's supported Obama's candidacy.

[graymouser]

Both FRSO's reportedly backed Obama in the last election, and one of the things the Obama administration did was to repress pro-Palestinian activists in the US through scary Federal intimidation, which seems a mite ungrateful, given that the FRSO's supported Obama's candidacy.
FRSO (Fight Back!) was the organization that has faced FBI repression. They took a slightly different line at the time, one focused less on electing Obama and more on defeating McCain; they backed into a position of electoral support. FRSO/OSCL was more entirely pro-Obama, along with DSA, CCDS and CPUSA.

The FRSO/OSCL has had a long and lengthy flirtation with Solidarity but the Democratic Party question is too deep a division even for those groups. Reportedly FRSO (Fight Back!) has been closer to Workers World lately.

As to the two parties in this thread: the APL is at least interesting in that it didn't form like most Hoxhaist groups. For the most part, Hoxhaism came out of the Maoist "anti-revisionist" milieu that followed Albania in the Sino-Albanian split. There was a lot of confusion in the 70s between parties that had been pro-China during Mao's lifetime over what to do next; Max Elbaum's book Revolution in the Air is a great look at it. The APL is different, in that it's the first retro-Hoxhaist party that I've ever heard of.

Programmatically, the PSL shouldn't exist. They have no serious differences in terms of politics with Workers World, who they split from 7 years ago. The two groups' analysis may not have been identical in the meantime, but it's been close enough that if you stripped off the header it's hard to tell whether something comes from WWP or PSL. In terms of their activism, PSL has continued to run ANSWER which has kept the antiwar movement divided for the past eight years - from UFPJ but also from UNAC which has the participation of Socialist Action, the ISO and WWP as well as non-socialist groupings in it. As an antiwar activist I can't really respect that.

[manic expression]

I asked about "effective action." Effective is the key word there. So...
Both are key words, but it's natural for you to ignore action altogether. :laugh:


Has that been effective in eliminating U.S. imperialism?
It's been very effective at organizing workers and progressives to oppose imperialism and the capitalist class.


Has that been effective in ending police brutality?
It's been very effective at letting pigs know they can't do whatever they want without workers opposing them, and it's been very effective at showing workers they can fight for control of their own communities.


Has that been effective in winning those struggles?
It has been very effective at increasing militant class consciousness amongst unions and their allies, it's been very effective at drawing more workers into solidarity with unions.


I won't go on. We can all see just how "effective" the PSL has been.
Yes, we certainly can, especially when juxtaposed with those who do absolutely nothing. :sneaky:

[Uncle Rob]

What ideologies do the APL allow into their group? It is for Stalinists and Trostskyists and/or somewhere in between?

We don't pay particular attention to political labels. All that concerns us is that you follow the party line.

[A Marxist Historian]

In what sense?

The WSWS matters to the extent that it's website is one of the most visited on the internet.

The CPUSA matters to the extent that it prints a lot of "classics" and brings in money and votes for the Democrats.

The WWP matters to the extent that it organizes a lot of activist fronts and builds support for politicians from the Green Party and Democrats.

Etc.

The biggest group, which at least has the sense to call itself an organization not a party, is the ISO. Maybe the CP is bigger on paper, but a lot of its membership these days comes from signing up over the Internet and sending in a few bucks maybe.

But it is a mostly student affair, with little roots in the working class after their fiasco in the Teamsters Union with TDU, and lately is as deeply in the orbit of the Democratic Party as the WWP. More so in some ways in fact.

-M.H.-

[TheGodlessUtopian]

We don't pay particular attention to political labels. All that concerns us is that you follow the party line.

What is the party line in a nutshell?

[Uncle Rob]

http://americanpartyoflabor.org/publications/general-information