Religion

[Nikolay]

I'm a Catholic and I believe in God and read the Bible, and pray once in awhile (however, I don't believe Catholicism should be the state religion. I believe religion should have no role in government). Is this a bad thing if I describe myself as a Marxist?

[Sensible Socialist]

I don't believe there is any rule against studying the world around you from a Marxist perspective and following organized religion, although you're bound to encounter signifigant anti-piety from most Marxists and leftists in general.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I believe Marx did not view personal religious beliefs as great of a threat as he did organized religion working its way into positions of political power, if he did he would have written far more against it. As long as churches/mosques/synagogues/etc. stay out of the politics of a nation, then they should be left alone.

[Koba1917]

I'm a Catholic and I believe in God and read the Bible,
and pray once in awhile (however, I don't believe Catholicism should be the state religion.
I believe religion should have no role in government). Personally I have no problem with this,
most Catholics I know are Secular in the sense separation between church and the State.


Is this a bad thing if I describe myself as a Marxist?Well, In the sense of Marx and Engels ideas,
I would say probably (people call themselves Marxists for different reasons). Saying that Marxism is based upon a
Historical Materialist interpretation of history.
Which is opposed to Theological views and Metaphysical views.
Though it is possible to accept Marx and Engels view on Capital, Socialism, State ect.
It's just one major part of Marxist philosophy is based upon anti-metaphysical views.
Saying all this I think you should maybe look into Theological Liberation thought....
Jesus was a pretty cool guy, eh doesn't afraid of anything and dislikes the rich and gives out free healthcare xD

[Frank Zapatista]

I've always been really interested in religions, I know the bible better than most Christians and have read other religious holy books such as the Qur'an aswell. I have a particular interest in Islam, Sikhism and Judaism. I don't belong to any religion (although I was baptised Catholic) but I consider myself very spiritual and study Kabbalah. As for the leftist movement, I think it depends exactly what views you hold as a Catholic, what you agree with. Are you homophobic?

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

I'm a Catholic and I believe in God and read the Bible, and pray once in awhile (however, I don't believe Catholicism should be the state religion. I believe religion should have no role in government). Is this a bad thing if I describe myself as a Marxist?

I would say not. I'm Muslim, I pray the fard prayers, I attend jum'uah every week, I read the Qur'an every now and again, I plan to make hajj eventually and consider myself a fairly pious Muslim and a Marxist proper. I don't think being religious has anything to do with anything really.

[RedMarxist]

being young and still learning all that I can learn about Marxism(although I still consider myself a Marxist), I'd have to definitely say that I'm an atheist. I just cannot believe in Creationism, the Jesus Miracles, and the like. I did not 'become' an atheist to be rebellious or because I wanted excuses to be amoral, but because of the logical flaws in Religion, specifically Christianity.

That said what I do know if Marx is: he was as others have said against religion, or at least had strong views against it personally. He once said in his writings that it it is the opium of the masses. How true. religion was/is used by Iran to justify the government's rule. It was used by colonialists to justify killing Native Americans. It was used to justify the Crusades. It IS used to justify hate today, in the guise of West Borough Baptist Church.

I have been told by teachers, friends, etc. that I'm "freaking brilliant" "highly intelligent." etc. Figures that I'd turn to atheism, eh?

But if you knew me, you'd know I'm a caring, kind, compassionate, funny person who everyone gets along with. I'm that guy in the corner reading communist history books, biographies on 1800's politicians and Civil War generals. I'm that guy in class who always has something funny to say, as well as something smart and brainy to say too. The guy who "knows his history". I'm the guy who comes to school wearing the Che Guevara t-shirts, and actually can tell you what he really stood for.


I know this is long and personal, but I'm trying to make a point. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I'm amoral, a jerk, trying to indoctrinate people into my 'beliefs'

I just can't believe in religion because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Ya, I'm that guy.

[Nikolay]

I've always been really interested in religions, I know the bible better than most Christians and have read other religious holy books such as the Qur'an aswell. I have a particular interest in Islam, Sikhism and Judaism. I don't belong to any religion (although I was baptised Catholic) but I consider myself very spiritual and study Kabbalah. As for the leftist movement, I think it depends exactly what views you hold as a Catholic, what you agree with. Are you homophobic?

No, I'm not homophobic. I believe homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals all have the right to marry and adopt.

[Nikolay]

being young and still learning all that I can learn about Marxism(although I still consider myself a Marxist), I'd have to definitely say that I'm an atheist. I just cannot believe in Creationism, the Jesus Miracles, and the like. I did not 'become' an atheist to be rebellious or because I wanted excuses to be amoral, but because of the logical flaws in Religion, specifically Christianity.

That said what I do know if Marx is: he was as others have said against religion, or at least had strong views against it personally. He once said in his writings that it it is the opium of the masses. How true. religion was/is used by Iran to justify the government's rule. It was used by colonialists to justify killing Native Americans. It was used to justify the Crusades. It IS used to justify hate today, in the guise of West Borough Baptist Church.

I have been told by teachers, friends, etc. that I'm "freaking brilliant" "highly intelligent." etc. Figures that I'd turn to atheism, eh?

But if you knew me, you'd know I'm a caring, kind, compassionate, funny person who everyone gets along with. I'm that guy in the corner reading communist history books, biographies on 1800's politicians and Civil War generals. I'm that guy in class who always has something funny to say, as well as something smart and brainy to say too. The guy who "knows his history". I'm the guy who comes to school wearing the Che Guevara t-shirts, and actually can tell you what he really stood for.


I know this is long and personal, but I'm trying to make a point. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I'm amoral, a jerk, trying to indoctrinate people into my 'beliefs'

I just can't believe in religion because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Ya, I'm that guy.

I respect your point. I don't try to bring my religion onto others, I think it's wrong. I also think it's wrong what some churches are doing, and what some theocratic nations are doing as well (like Iran).

Also, a little off-topic. You kind of remind me of... me in a way. :P I'm still going through the process of studying Marx, and trying to get a grip of revolutionary thought, etc. And my personality isn't far from yours either.

[Frank Zapatista]

No, I'm not homophobic. I believe homosexuals, lesbians, transsexuals all have the right to marry and adopt.
As someone that's really into theology, I'd like to know why you reject the church's views on homosexuality. I don't believe that the scripture in Leviticus applies, I've heard both Christians and Atheists try to quote that passage in debate about homosexuality but the rules of leviticus are void for the same reason that circumcision is no longer a requirement of Christians, the law of leviticus are the old covenant. Nobody sacrifices to god as prescribes in Leviticus either because the laws of Leviticus are void now. The laws are clearly made void in passages like Galatians 3:24-25, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18-19. The reason the church rejects homosexuality has NOTHING to do with scripture as the laws of Moses are now void by the new gospel and Christ never mentioned homosexuality. Their reasoning has more to do with the fact that sex that isn't for procreation is a sin in Catholicism (hence their views on things like condoms) and homosexuals can't reproduce therefor all homosexual sex is viewed as an act of lust which is a sin. INFACT, homosexuals can become priests in the Catholic faith, well technically, they have to of course be celebate (as that is required of all priests) and not be involved in the "gay community", as it's seen as promoting sex for lusts sake. A gay person who doesn't have sex wouldn't be a sinner. Sorry, I apologize for the wall of text here but I love discussing this kind of thing.

[Tommy4ever]

I'm a Catholic and I believe in God and read the Bible, and pray once in awhile (however, I don't believe Catholicism should be the state religion. I believe religion should have no role in government). Is this a bad thing if I describe myself as a Marxist?

Marx viewed religion as essentially something that is negative in terms of your consciousness, but not destructive. The famous ''opium of the masses' quote is basically Marx comparing faith to things like alcohol and soft drugs. They might make you feel better in the short term, but they don't solve any or your problems, distract you from your problems and if taken to excessive levels can be harmful.

So a Marxist can be religious, although it is not helpful.

Personal faith is one thing, organised religion another. To be a Marxist one really should be against organised religion and the established Churches - not only to these Churches have a malignant influence on society every day, they are also the closest ally of the ruling class. The ultimate propoganda organ - the Catholic Church is certainly the worst Christian Church for this historically.

Something I say to theists when they attack Marxism for its atheism is ''I am not against the religious, I am against your Churches''.

[hatzel]

He once said in his writings that it it is the opium of the masses. How true. religion was/is used by Iran to justify the government's rule. It was used by colonialists to justify killing Native Americans. It was used to justify the Crusades. It IS used to justify hate today, in the guise of West Borough Baptist Church.

Just because I know somebody else is going to say it: you don't understand that opium of the masses thing. At all. Nothing that you've written has anything to do with it. You've just thrown yourself on some far-from-'freaking-brilliant' tangent into the depths of irrelevance. And that's a shame.

For you and the OP, I'll just go onto Wikipedia to get that section to quote below (don't worry, it's only been quoted on this site about a million bagillion times, so I'm still being new and original here...), so that we can all know Marx's personal opinions, in case knowing some guy's personal opinions is important to anybody here:


Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

The OP may also be interested to know that there is actually a religion forum (http://www.revleft.com/vb/religion-f38/index.html) where this thread is 'debated' ad nauseum each and every day, and if that doesn't sound appealing, I don't know what does...

[Azula]

I'm a Catholic and I believe in God and read the Bible, and pray once in awhile (however, I don't believe Catholicism should be the state religion. I believe religion should have no role in government). Is this a bad thing if I describe myself as a Marxist?

You cannot serve two masters.

Christianity is about loving your enemy (the oppressors), while Communism is about destroying your enemies (that is an important part of Communism).

[DarkPast]

As Comrade Lenin wrote:

"We must not only admit workers who preserve their belief in God into the Social-Democratic Party, but must deliberately set out to recruit them; we are absolutely opposed to giving the slightest offense to their religious convictions, but we recruit them in order to educate them in the spirit of our programme, and not in order to permit an active struggle against it."

source: http://marxistsfr.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm

EDIT: Also, this:

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[hatzel]

Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule.

Yet another interesting example of hijacking a disparate range of tendencies (fundamentally concerned with the economic arrangement of society) and attaching a great deal of pre/proscriptive metaphysical, philosophical and moral baggage to it. This metaphysical, philosophical and moral baggage, of course, being the metaphysical, philosophical and moral baggage of Marxism-Leninism, which obviously has no inherent right to claim monopoly over the term 'socialism,' as it so often seems to...

/criticism

[RedMarxist]

You cannot serve two masters.

Christianity is about loving your enemy (the oppressors), while Communism is about destroying your enemies (that is an important part of Communism).


excuse me? I remember you-your the deranged psychopath who said they'd be 'ready to kill in times of revolution' right? Since when did communism become a blood letting ritual in which the only goal is to crush your enemies?


Sure, it has been romanticized as such by such figures as Che Guevara and Mao Zedong. But for me, Communism is this:

first and foremost, a wake up call. A wake up call in the form a red pill. For a long time I've been taking the blue pill, living in a world of blissful ignorance-but armed with the knowledge of the horrors of capitalism and white terror-I've become a communist.

Secondly, it is not about wonton destruction. For me, my duty is to spread the word of this system, to propagandize in the streets and on campus nad all places. lack of education is our true enemy-THAT must be crushed.

A little about me: I have aspirations to be a writer and a hobbyist game programmer. I have already become deeply involved in my mod(game modification), A World To Win. i know, I'm a nerd, but that mod gave me the chance to propagandize my beliefs, subtlety as not to be annoying.

why kill when you can use your talents to spread communist ideals instead? killing seems rather counter productive. killing turns people off to an idelogy that has seen plenty of killing. why do we need more?

specifically speaking I have made a choice: I'm a Marxist-Leninist. Only through the vanguard party may the revolution be completed, only through the vanguard party may the proletariat overcome white terror.

You may call me an authoritarian. why would you believe in a single party dictatorship? To that I say, has not Council Communism ever had a single victory? no it has not. Has not anarchism had a single victory? NO, it has not. Has not Leninism, despite it's glaring flaws, successfully led revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba, and so far India, Bangladesh, Nepal, and the Philippines?

Cannot Leninism be reformed? cannot the self described vanguard, like the "old" Bolshevik party, function alongside multiple parties of all types? Power doesn't always corrupt you know.

that is my two cents. Peace.

P.S I'm not trying to sound harsh. And I'm not directly attacking Azula, nor am I trying to attack anyone. I'm just stating my opinion. as for religion, I don't think it should be banned, yet organized Religion's power post revolution should be severely limited, yet not completely abolished with state atheism enforced.

[Nikolay]

As someone that's really into theology, I'd like to know why you reject the church's views on homosexuality. I don't believe that the scripture in Leviticus applies, I've heard both Christians and Atheists try to quote that passage in debate about homosexuality but the rules of leviticus are void for the same reason that circumcision is no longer a requirement of Christians, the law of leviticus are the old covenant. Nobody sacrifices to god as prescribes in Leviticus either because the laws of Leviticus are void now. The laws are clearly made void in passages like Galatians 3:24-25, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18-19. The reason the church rejects homosexuality has NOTHING to do with scripture as the laws of Moses are now void by the new gospel and Christ never mentioned homosexuality. Their reasoning has more to do with the fact that sex that isn't for procreation is a sin in Catholicism (hence their views on things like condoms) and homosexuals can't reproduce therefor all homosexual sex is viewed as an act of lust which is a sin. INFACT, homosexuals can become priests in the Catholic faith, well technically, they have to of course be celebate (as that is required of all priests) and not be involved in the "gay community", as it's seen as promoting sex for lusts sake. A gay person who doesn't have sex wouldn't be a sinner. Sorry, I apologize for the wall of text here but I love discussing this kind of thing.

I view homosexuals, lesbians and transsexuals as equals, and therefore have the right to marry and adopt. I believe if you love someone, you have the right to marry them. And if you can't reproduce with that person, then you have the right to adopt. I'm not a hardcore Catholic, so some stuff the Bible says or what the Church says, just goes in one ear and out the other (concerning homosexuals).

[eyeheartlenin]

I think tommy4ever's stance that he is opposed to churches, not to believers (I hope I got that right) is a good one. I seem to remember, from my years among the Grantists that at some point Lenin said the party would accept workers who were believers. (I'm sure once those working-class believers started attending party meetings, they were exposed to a lot of atheism. When I was in college, as a Russian language major, back in the 60's, there was still atheist agitation in the USSR; Soviet atheism even had its own magazine.)

Both places I have lived in recently have been working-class neighborhoods, and in each my apartment looked out on an enormous Catholic church with a bell tower, so I don't think adherence to atheism could be made a requirement for joining leftist organizations in the US, not if those organizations want to recruit workers, and I really doubt that there is any correlation between religion and working-class consciousness in the US. I think many, if not most, Catholics are hip enough to follow their own inclinations and common sense regarding things like abortion and homosexuality.

It is funny that I found this thread today, since I have my first interview with the anarchists tomorrow morning. I did not think I could tell (my future) comrade that I am usually at church at the time he proposed for the interview, but there is nothing in the principles of the group I want to join that says their supporters have to be atheists. (But probably most of them are, which is fine: I am for the right to believe and the right not to believe. I just think religious organizations should pay taxes on their wealth.) -- ProvFT

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

You cannot serve two masters.

:rolleyes:


Christianity is about loving your enemy (the oppressors), while Communism is about destroying your enemies (that is an important part of Communism).

I may not know much about Christianity but I don't think this is a fair assessment of Christianity in relation to Communism. One can certainly be Christian or Sikh or whatever and be a Marxist and anyone that says any different is just a militant Atheist twit.

[Frank Zapatista]

I view homosexuals, lesbians and transsexuals as equals, and therefore have the right to marry and adopt. I believe if you love someone, you have the right to marry them. And if you can't reproduce with that person, then you have the right to adopt. I'm not a hardcore Catholic, so some stuff the Bible says or what the Church says, just goes in one ear and out the other (concerning homosexuals).
But as a Catholic you must believe the church's views on homosexuality as I've explained, no? The pope is infallible when he speaks about theology on the behalf on the church.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

But as a Catholic you must believe the church's views on homosexuality as I've explained, no? The pope is infallible when he speaks about theology on the behalf on the church.

Just because someone is X doesn't mean they are going to conform strictly to the teachings of their religion. For example, I'm Muslim, alcohol is expressly forbidden but I drink it in excessive quantities.

[Caj]

Marxism is based upon a
Historical Materialist interpretation of history.
Which is opposed to Theological views and Metaphysical views.

. . .
It's just one major part of Marxist philosophy is based upon anti-metaphysical views.


Wait, what? :confused: One can accept historical materialism while still holding metaphysical and/or theological views. The "materialism" in historical materialism
isn't referring to philosophical materialism. It is referring to the materialistic processes by which history progresses.

[Bostana]

I am a former Catholic, and I asked the same question you did. There are different views one Catholic would say this another Catholic would say that. So no one can really say.

[Mythbuster]

I'm a Catholic and I believe in God and read the Bible, and pray once in awhile (however, I don't believe Catholicism should be the state religion. I believe religion should have no role in government). Is this a bad thing if I describe myself as a Marxist?

I think you could be religious and communist as well. There is a theistic group on here (somewhere) and I'm sure they'd glad to have you join.

So many people feel they need to give up their religion for communism, I honestly don't think that isn't true.

[Koba1917]

Wait, what? :confused: One can accept historical materialism while still holding metaphysical and/or theological views. The "materialism" in historical materialism
isn't referring to philosophical materialism. It is referring to the materialistic processes by which history progresses.

I misspoke, the Theological views and Metaphysical views of the bible. The view that 'god' controls humanity and its progression. Though that changes Christian to Christian.

[eyeheartlenin]

Average Marxist wrote: "But as a Catholic you must believe the church's views on homosexuality as I've explained, no? The pope is infallible when he speaks about theology on the behalf on the church."

* * *

Actually, when you talk to Catholics in the US, you discover that they themselves decide what they think about the teachings of the Church and what they are going to observe, as other people have suggested.

In my experience, Jewish people also consciously fashion their own degree of religious observance, and, in Judaism, there are exceptions to nearly all the rules. There is a marvelous novel, The Romance Reader, that begins on the Sabbath, with the mother being pregnant, and the father calls a taxi, carries the suitcase (prepared for the trip to the hospital) to the taxi, and pays the driver in cash, all of which is proscribed on the Sabbath, but since human life, that of the mother, is at stake, Sabbath rules do not apply.

Interestingly, in Judaism, as it was explained to me, if carrying the baby to term is going to endanger the life of the mother, then it is mandatory that an abortion be performed, to save her life. The fetus is considered to have slipped into the category of a "roDEF" a "pursuer," who threatens someone's life. Very enlightened, I think.

[Frank Zapatista]

Just because someone is X doesn't mean they are going to conform strictly to the teachings of their religion. For example, I'm Muslim, alcohol is expressly forbidden but I drink it in excessive quantities.
I disagree. You cannot be a Catholic who doesn't believe in the infallibility of the pope for the same reason you can't be a racist communist, it may just be a label but labels have specific meanings. Try this for an example, one of the defining features of Calvinism is it's belief in Predestination, sure a person who attends a Calvinist church can choose not to believe in it but they won't really be a Calvinist because they're not following the ideology of the church or Calvin. Or try the Nation of Islam, they certainly believe that they are muslims even though their beliefs go against the Qur'an. The pope's infallibilty is a defining feature of Catholicism, if you don't believe the pope's devinely inspired, you're a Protestant.

[Seresan]

I'm in your boat here... I'm a Catholic but not a mindless sheep. I believe in evolution, the right for homosexuals to marry, that the Church and state should be separate, etc, yet 'intelligent atheists' bash my views before even learning them.

And to pay homage to RedMarxist for his delightful post, I feel the need to state that I have been praised for my ability to think abstractly, reason logically, and other semi-related things that I really shouldn't be bragging about.

[CAleftist]

As long as you can keep your personal beliefs completely separate from politics, it shouldn't be a problem.