Gaddafi speech

[Azula]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTa4yAqqSI8

It is a duty for every serious and determined Anti-imperialist to defend the independence of the Libyan people and the gains of the September Revolution of 1969. We should all wear green in solidarity with the Libyan people.

[thesadmafioso]

I thought these topics fell out of fashion a few months ago or something.

Anti imperialism does not mean supporting any figure who the US opposes, such a crude line of reasoning is doomed to lead to the adoption to some seriously counter productive positions. If you want to talk about duty to anti imperialism, we still hold a responsibility as leftists to oppose American involvement in the conflict, but that is not to say we need to support Gaddafi just because he happens to be on the wrong side of US bombs at the moment.

The Gaddafi regime maintains a structure of power which is by no means socialist or even leftist, it is a rather straightforward autocracy wherein the workers have no control over the means of production and no institutions through which to exercisesuch power at their disposal. It is deserving of denunciation from the left and it is certainly not worthy of this sort of unconditional defense.

[Azula]

The Jamahirya?

Libya is probably the most democratic non-socialist country in the world. They have direct democracy.

[Susurrus]

"All these innate characteristics form differences because of which men and women are not the same. These characteristics in themselves are the realities that define male and female, men and women; they assign to each of them a different role or function in life. "

"A woman, whose created nature has assigned to her a natural role different from that of man, must be in an appropriate position to perform her natural role."

"To demand equality between them[men and women] in any dirty work which stains her beauty and detracts from her femininity is unjust and cruel. Education that leads to work unsuitable for her nature is unjust and cruel as well."

"In view of his different nature and in line with the laws of nature, the male has played the role of the strong and striving not by design, but simply because he is created that way. The female has played the role of the beautiful and the gentle involuntarily because she was created so. "

Gaddafi's Green Book.

[Susurrus]

The Jamahirya?

Libya is probably the most democratic non-socialist country in the world. They have direct democracy.

I wish. Sadly, the direct democracy is in name only, Gaddafi has complete control over it and the councils serve little function beyond enforcing his will.

[Azula]

That is indeed sexist, but we cannot expect that gender liberation would work in a traditionalist clan society. At the same time, we need to defend the gains of the Jamahariya.

[Thirsty Crow]

The independence of Lybian people? Which would mean that the Gaddafir regime has maintained independence for the Lybian working class, in relation to social and economic forces engendered by their specific position in the world market? Does it also mean that this regime has maintained the independence of the workers' movement in Lybia, strenghtening working class organizations autonomous from the state?
And of course, independence from exploitation?

So much empty rhetoric.

[Azula]

Gaddafi is preferable before the alternative, a corrupt clan-ruled state or anarchy.

[Jose Gracchus]

Anti-imperialism = support for welfare Bonapartism v. proletarian communism

[Azula]

Anti-imperialism = Resistance against the USA

[Susurrus]

Gaddafi is preferable before the alternative, a corrupt clan-ruled state or anarchy.

Isn't a leftist form of the state preferable?

[agnixie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTa4yAqqSI8

It is a duty for every serious and determined Anti-imperialist to defend the independence of the Libyan people and the gains of the September Revolution of 1969. We should all wear green in solidarity with the Libyan people.

Long live the fascist national bourgeoisie, long live his majesty the king of Africa. Long live the glorious Janjaweed warriors.


Gaddafi is preferable before the alternative, a corrupt clan-ruled state or anarchy.

Gaddafist libya is a corrupt clan-ruled state and fuck the horse you rode on, sectarian piece of shit. Choke on the flag you wrap yourself in.

[Susurrus]

Anti-imperialism = Resistance against the USA

"The bourgeoisie incites the workers of one nation against those of another in the endeavour to keep them disunited. Class-conscious workers, realising that the break-down of all the national barriers by capitalism is inevitable and progressive, are trying to help to enlighten and organise their fellow-workers from the backward countries." Lenin

[thesadmafioso]

Anti-imperialism = Resistance against the USA

And that resistance doesn't mean actively defending any individual, organization, or nation which is opposed to the US. Principle in political ideology is not something to be thrown to the wayside whenever the US decides to bomb some autocracy or another.

If you maintain this logic regularly, you are going to run into some serious cognitive dissidence in dealing with foreign policy at some point.

[Susurrus]

a corrupt clan-ruled state

From the Green Book:

THE MERITS OF THE TRIBE

Since the tribe is a large family, it provides its members with much the same material benefits and social advantages that the family provides for its members, for the tribe is a secondary family. What must be emphasized is that, in the context of the tribe, an individual might indulge himself in an uncouth manner, something which he would not do within the family. However, because of the smallness in size of the family, immediate supervision is not exercised, unlike the tribe whose members continually feel that they are under its supervision. In view of these considerations, the tribe forms a behaviour pattern for its members, developing into a social education which is better and more noble than any school education. The tribe is a social school where its members are raised to absorb the high ideals which develop into a behaviour pattern for life. These become automatically rooted as the human being grows, unlike classroom education with its curricula - formally dictated and gradually lost with the growth of the individual. This is so because it is formal and compulsory and because the individual is aware of the fact that it is dictated to him.

The tribe is a natural social "umbrella" for social security. By virtue of social tribal traditions, the tribe provides for its members collective protection in the form of fines, revenge and defence; namely, social protection. Blood is the prime factor in the formation of the tribe, but it is not the only one because affiliation is also a factor in the formation of the tribe. With the passage of time, the differences between the factors of blood and affiliation disappear, leaving the tribe as one social and physical unit, though it remains fundamentally a unit of blood in origin.

[Crux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTa4yAqqSI8

It is a duty for every serious and determined Anti-imperialist to defend the independence of the Libyan people and the gains of the September Revolution of 1969. We should all wear green in solidarity with the Libyan people.
You are aware Gaddafi initially propagataed for a "holy war against communism", right? Of course he later changed his mind, but he is an opportunist through and through.

[agnixie]

You are aware Gaddafi initially propagataed for a "holy war against communism", right? Of course he later changed his mind, but he is an opportunist through and through.

So that's why stalinoids like him so much >.>

[Thirsty Crow]

Isn't a leftist form of the state preferable?
There is no such a thing as a "leftist form of the state". The state is crucially connected to the relations of production - as the organization of these in the form of legitimate power and the monopolization of legitimate violence - which makes of it not an agglomerate of conflicting ideologies, but rather a concentration of class interests.
This means that the state is always a class state, no matter the actual forms of a general notion of a class state which one of the national states may take on. Liberal democratic, authoritarian, fascist, or military dicatorship - these are all forms of the capitalist state.

What is meant by the welfare state are specific relations of class power manifest in specific legal concessions which result in the modification of relations of production (for instance, the economic results of a legal increase in the minimum wage, child labour laws, then the effect of public healthcare programs on the social reproduction of the workforce, education and so on) which is perceived as beneficial to the position of the working class.

The institutional reality of the state remains more or less unaffcted by the presence of specific ideologies (thus, for instance, nationalization in post WW2 Great Britain did not entail an implementation of any kind of workers' control over the labour process and means of production).


Anti-imperialism = Resistance against the USA
Woow, here's a clear expression of "anti-imperialism": one-eyed criticism against one of the links in the imperialist chain.
Nevermind China, nevermind Russia and the European Union, and most of all nevermind what actually constitutes imperialism as imperialism.

[Azula]

Gaddafi's regime is not perfect, but at least it is better than for example Chàvez's Venezuela, which many people uphold despite that it is more theoretically flawed.

[agnixie]

Gaddafi's regime is not perfect, but at least it is better than for example Chàvez's Venezuela, which many people uphold despite that it is more theoretically flawed.

It's hard to be more theoretically flawed than fascism.

[Azula]

Proof that Gaddafi is a Fascist? He has supported various Anti-imperialist movements.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Proof that Gaddafi is a Fascist? He has supported various Anti-imperialist movements.

This has been proven numerous times.

(1) Gaddafi supported various North African militias which became the Janjaweed in Sudan. You know, the same people targeting blacks for the Sudanese military state.

(2) He also supported Idi Amin in Uganda

(3) ... and Charles Taylor of Libya

(4) ... Foday Sankoh in Sierra Leone ...

(5) ... Emperor Bokassa of the Central African Empire ...

(6) ... and Omar Bashir in Sudan, among others

(7) his government is selective in how it distributes the public wealth, particularly in that preferences go to tribal, geographic or class groups which are loyal to Gaddafi

(8) He has not allowed state recognition or teaching in minority languagess such as Berber and has repressed them

(9) Despite the billions in oil money, the government runs poor services with no public oversight. Instead of efficient management of public resources the state spins an elaborate ideological narrative which it uses to justify everyone's poor conditions.

(10) He justifies his shitty government with an absurd ideology which claims to be a balance between socialism, religion, democracy and nationalism, which, when enforced with a police state loyal to the center's definition of state identity

and so on. Even if he's not a fascist by definition (and you can make a good case for him being so based on the ideology of his state), it's certainly an unusual form of authoritarianism which deserves no praise or respect in a modern society.

[Azula]

(1) Gaddafi supported various North African militias which became the Janjaweed in Sudan. You know, the same people targeting blacks for the Sudanese military state.

You know that the West is desiring, and have partially succeeded in achieving, the dismemberment of Sudan?


(2) He also supported Idi Amin in Uganda

Who also aligned with anti-imperialist forces.


(3) ... and Charles Taylor of Libya

(4) ... Foday Sankoh in Sierra Leone ...

(5) ... Emperor Bokassa of the Central African Empire ...

Don't know anything about them, but if you want to unify Africa you need to speak with African leaders.


(6) ... and Omar Bashir in Sudan, among others

See (1).


(7) his government is selective in how it distributes the public wealth, particularly in that preferences go to tribal, geographic or class groups which are loyal to Gaddafi

Sadly, Libya is still largely a tribal society, yes.


(8) He has not allowed state recognition or teaching in minority languagess such as Berber and has repressed them

That is wrong then, but maybe Berber movements earlier have acted as stooges for the imperialists?


(9) His government lacks public transparency and accountability

(10) Despite the billions in oil money, the government runs crap services


It is better that the resources are mismanaged by Libyans than well-managed by the Americans or the French.


(11) He justifies his shitty government with an absurd ideology which claims to be a balance between socialism, religion, democracy and nationalism, which, when enforced with a police state loyal to the center's definition of state identity


It is not a Marxist ideology, no. But what I find progressive about Gaddafi is his dream of the United States of Africa, which would liberate the continent's resources from Western exploiters.

[Susurrus]

But what I find progressive about Gaddafi is his dream of the United States of Africa, which would liberate the continent's resources from Western exploiters.

But then the resources go to African exploiters, with dictatorial power that will suppress any people's revolutions or movements.

[agnixie]

You know that the West is desiring, and have partially succeeded in achieving, the dismemberment of Sudan?


You're a disgusting, worthless individual.

[Azula]

You're a disgusting, worthless individual.

Thank you for this.

I will remember it.

[Susurrus]

Thank you for this.

I will remember it.

Just ignore that sort of post, it serves no purpose.

[Thirsty Crow]

Just ignore that sort of post, it serves no purpose.
No, in fact it does. When you remind yourself that this is a person caliming Christian theocracy, and especially the methods used to cleanse the world of so called pagan beliefs, were progressive as Christianity is a "more advanced religion".

[Azula]

No, in fact it does. When you remind yourself that this is a person caliming Christian theocracy, and especially the methods used to cleanse the world of so called pagan beliefs, were progressive as Christianity is a "more advanced religion".

I said that it possibly was. Also, the replacement of slavery with feudalism was progressive.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

You know that the West is desiring, and have partially succeeded in achieving, the dismemberment of Sudan?
...
See (1).


How is that in any way relevant to genocide? Now in the creepy retro-stalinoid view of the world, black Sudanese are somehow at fault for resenting genocidal repression against them? Perhaps Sudan wouldn't be so easy for the West to "dismember" if its fascist Arab government didn't seem obsessed with obliterating thousands of innocent people, giving blacks no option but to rebel.



Who also aligned with anti-imperialist forces.
Yeah and he was a mass murderer. Why does it matter that he aligned with anti-Imperialists when this is the thug who invaded neighboring Tanzania and murdered many of his own people? Mussolini invaded Imperialist Ethiopia and fought Imperialist Britain, that in no way made him a force for progress.



Don't know anything about them, but if you want to unify Africa you need to speak with African leaders.
What is this supposed to mean? Yeah Africa needs indigenous leaders, but it needs indigenous leaders who aren't mass murdering autocrats who repeat the same rape against their people that European colonizers did 100 years ago.



Sadly, Libya is still largely a tribal society, yes.
Yes, no thanks to a government willing to use tribal politics to stay in power.



That is wrong then, but maybe Berber movements earlier have acted as stooges for the imperialists?
This is reaching for excuses. Who cares? Indigenous people in the mountains have every right to use their 3,000 year old language no matter what their ancestors did (also when were the berbers "stooges for the imperialists" I'd like to see this).



It is better that the resources are mismanaged by Libyans than well-managed by the Americans or the French.
Petty nationalism. An exploiter is an exploiter whether his flag is foreign or domestic.



It is not a Marxist ideology, no. But what I find progressive about Gaddafi is his dream of the United States of Africa, which would liberate the continent's resources from Western exploiters.His "United States of Africa" was just another attempt by Gaddafi to gain power over a broader base than tiny Libya. It's no help to liberate the "continent's" resources if it is only "liberated" by continental elites. What you're saying would imply that Japanese Imperialism during WWII was progressive because somehow the elites of that empire were better suited for exploiting the locals than the elites of European empires. If this were actually a bottom-up working class effort, this would make sense.

[agnixie]

I said that it possibly was. Also, the replacement of slavery with feudalism was progressive.

There was no replacement of slavery. Slavery lasted into the 19th century with no interruption. When the pope started whining about christian slaves (never heathens), the very christian italian merchant republics moved their operations to byzantium, north africa and the middle east.

[Salyut]

It is better that the resources are mismanaged by Libyans than well-managed by the Americans or the French...But what I find progressive about Gaddafi is his dream of the United States of Africa, which would liberate the continent's resources from Western exploiters.

So...what was with the whole 'invade Chad and seize control of the Aouzou Strip' thing?

[Azula]

So...what was with the whole 'invade Chad and seize control of the Aouzou Strip' thing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Chad allied with Imperialist France?

[Susurrus]

No, in fact it does. When you remind yourself that this is a person caliming Christian theocracy, and especially the methods used to cleanse the world of so called pagan beliefs, were progressive as Christianity is a "more advanced religion".

Then say that, don't just insult people.

[agnixie]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Chad allied with Imperialist France?

No, actually, Chad only went to France after Qaddafi had invaded.

I'll note that one of the Libyan equipped militias was a militant islamist group.

Also, imperialists fighting each other doesn't mean one of the imperialists is right, you're still a detestable person.


Then say that, don't just insult people.

Everything she says insults our intelligences.

[Per Levy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Chad allied with Imperialist France?

correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the gadaffi regime on pretty good terms with the imperialistic powers until this year? yes he was, he was arresting africans who wanted to get to europe in camps, wich he did for the european union. he was a good buddy of italys berlusconi and so on. not to mention that gadaffi is billionare, and how did he got that money? from the oil and that money should belong to the lybian people and not to him and his family alone.

[Susurrus]

I believe he's still on pretty good terms with Putin.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44579000/jpg/_44579447_bothmengetty226body.jpg

[Crux]

Proof that Gaddafi is a Fascist? He has supported various Anti-imperialist movements.
How about supporting the FPÖ then?

[agnixie]

How about supporting the FPÖ then?

And the BNP.

Maybe we found a troll trying to imitate third worldism?

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

You're a disgusting, worthless individual.

Are you going to offer nothing in this thread but your inane bullshit? Seriously, I have tried to read through this thread and I keep seeing you offering nothing to the discussion but idiotic insults against Azula, if this is all you have to offer then shut the fuck up and get the fuck out or let me put this in a way you might understand given the intellectual level represented by your posts; stfu + gtfo. Got it? Cool.

[bietan jarrai]

You're a disgusting, worthless individual.

How is this helpful? I'm not picking sides but this certainly sounds like lack of argument.

Anyway, I think we should just go with what the conscious working class wants, but there is certainly some support for Gaddafi. Obviously there's no way I'll be supporting the rebels and NATO.

[agnixie]

Are you going to offer nothing in this thread but your inane bullshit? Seriously, I have tried to read through this thread and I keep seeing you offering nothing to the discussion but idiotic insults against Azula, if this is all you have to offer then shut the fuck up and get the fuck out or let me put this in a way you might understand given the intellectual level represented by your posts; stfu + gtfo. Got it? Cool.

I actually gave some serious comments. All you have literally done in this thread is what you accuse me of having done. So, do you actually have anything relevant to say regarding the subjects at hand or are you just going for hypocritical "callouts"