Why are we not at the forefront?

[Red Action]

I am so sick of being on the fringe of politics, and it seems like attacking nazi's and scum doesnt seem to be working for us.. why dont we as a movement in general only attack if we are attacked and concentrate on trying to get known to the general public!! :confused:

[gendoikari]

I am so sick of being on the fringe of politics, and it seems like attacking nazi's and scum doesnt seem to be working for us.. why dont we as a movement in general only attack if we are attacked and concentrate on trying to get known to the general public!! :confused:

amen here, here. We're going to need numbers on our side too.

[CAleftist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but something big happened between 1945 and 1991 (literally 20 years ago), and it wasn't exactly...favorable for the Left.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Being a secular missionary for communism isn't going to move us any closer to success, I'm afraid. Yes, organization is important, but no, this idea (i.e. lets hit the streets like red Jehovah's Witnesses) isn't the first time this has been thought of.

[thesadmafioso]

We are in somewhat of a recession of revolutionary momentum, it's an unavoidable occurrence and it's not worth getting discouraged over. Some periods of history are simply more open than others to outright class struggle and revolution and the world just currently happens to experiencing such an ebb of the workers movements.

It's by no means permanent and the tide of revolution will inevitably rise again in some form or another.

[agnixie]

We're not on the forefront because communist parties keep falling apart due to bullshit personality cults while any vaguely succesful anarchist group will be kept under the rug in the media, even if the much more visible green party is being outnumbered by the meetings of anarchist side groups in some places. Media is run by a very limited number of people, with very little visible independent stuff left, varying depending on the country.

[thesadmafioso]

We're not on the forefront because communist parties keep falling apart due to bullshit personality cults while any vaguely succesful anarchist group will be kept under the rug in the media, even if the much more visible green party is being outnumbered by the meetings of anarchist side groups in some places. Media is run by a very limited number of people, with very little visible independent stuff left, varying depending on the country.

I wasn't aware that the success of revolutionary organizations relied upon their access to institutions of the capitalistic media system.

[agnixie]

I wasn't aware that the success of revolutionary organizations relied upon their access to institutions of the capitalistic media system.

Tell you what, you keep trying the "throw a riot and they will come" approach and tell me how it works when the media works around the clock to demonize you.

It's not about access to the media, it's about access to people while the media is pulling this shit.

[thesadmafioso]

Tell you what, you keep trying the "throw a riot and they will come" approach and tell me how it works when the media works around the clock to demonize you.

You want a mass revolution or a small cadre of vanguardists to establish the dictatorship of the politburo?

I don't hold to that sort of methodology in agitation. And the media of the bourgeoisie is controlled by the capitalist class, it is going to voice opposition to any major revolutionary leftist movement regardless if you play at their game or not.

It is simply not possible to expect positive media coverage to be a pivotal factor in a revolutionary movement. It can be of some value in specific contexts, but it should not be treated any more significance than that.

[agnixie]

I don't hold to that sort of methodology in agitation. And the media of the bourgeoisie is controlled by the capitalist class, it is going to voice opposition to any major revolutionary leftist movement regardless if you play at their game or not.

It is simply not possible to expect positive media coverage to be a pivotal factor in a revolutionary movement. It can be of some value in specific contexts, but it should not be treated any more significance than that.

I'm not expecting positive media coverage, I'm expecting a less coordinated onslaught. Here's where you're not getting where I'm getting at.

[ellipsis]

Being a secular missionary for communism isn't going to move us any closer to success, I'm afraid. Yes, organization is important, but no, this idea (i.e. lets hit the streets like red Jehovah's Witnesses) isn't the first time this has been thought of.

A local comrade tried to organize a month long anarchist propaganda creation campaign, including street level distribution and discussion. It lasted 16 days of the month before, as a friend put it, "crashing and burning." :D

[thesadmafioso]

I'm not expecting positive media coverage, I'm expecting a less coordinated onslaught. Here's where you're not getting where I'm getting at.

It's still a rather minuscule detail that is being thrust to the front of an answer to a much larger question. As I read it, the topic was asking for an analysis of why revolutionary leftist policy has not gained more traction in the dynamic of bourgeois politics.

I mean, it's definitely important to subvert and disrupt the process of bourgeois hegemony in the media whenever the opportunity should arise, but I don't think we can primarily attribute our lack of traditional attention in orthodox political circles to this factor.

[agnixie]

It's still a rather minuscule detail that is being thrust to the front of an answer to a much larger question. As I read it, the topic was asking for an analysis of why revolutionary leftist policy has not gained more traction in the dynamic of bourgeois politics.

I mean, it's definitely important to subvert and disrupt the process of bourgeois hegemony in the media whenever the opportunity should arise, but I don't think we can primarily attribute our lack of traditional attention in orthodox political circles to this factor.

It's not a minuscule detail. Propaganda is a massive overwhelming detail. And there's also my point about sectarianism which still stands.

[Susurrus]

Propaganda of the deed in the form of direct action to help the oppressed, and, later, to fight the oppressor.

[thesadmafioso]

It's not a minuscule detail. Propaganda is a massive overwhelming detail.

I agree on the scale of the operations which should be undertaken by any leftist organization in agitating against the capitalistic status quo, but once more, the question at hand here really wasn't pertaining to these sorts of operations. It was asking for an assessment of the material conditions which have led to the marginalization of revolutionary parties and organizations in capitalist culture.

This is not the sole result of some massive failure on the behalf of every major leftist group to properly issue propaganda, it is largely an outcome which is the result of the predominant conditions of the time.

[KurtFF8]

Being a secular missionary for communism isn't going to move us any closer to success, I'm afraid. Yes, organization is important, but no, this idea (i.e. lets hit the streets like red Jehovah's Witnesses) isn't the first time this has been thought of.

Exactly, and groups do that quite often actually, and often with little success.

There are a host of reasons why the Left has declined, and there are volumes of books on it. There's no simple answer to this question, which can certainly be frustrating to folks who are looking for "the reason" why the Left isn't leading the masses to revolution in times of economic crisis.

But a starting point for rebuilding is agitation and getting involved in struggle. Granted, the best way to do that is hotly contest by the million segments of the Left.

Although I don't believe that a fragmented Left is the sole reason that the socialist part of the working class movement is smaller now, although it certainly does play its part

[Rusty Shackleford]

We are in somewhat of a recession of revolutionary momentum, it's an unavoidable occurrence and it's not worth getting discouraged over. Some periods of history are simply more open than others to outright class struggle and revolution and the world just currently happens to experiencing such an ebb of the workers movements.

It's by no means permanent and the tide of revolution will inevitably rise again in some form or another.

I have to disagree with the position of radical politics growing negatively. i think its the other way around.

the whole world over youve seen a moderate left shift in the politics of the people, not necessarily the governments. In Greece the KKE and Anarchists are very active and the KKE for example is still popular with at least 10-20% of the population.

In the UK the riots were a result of austerity measures and joblessness. it was an explosion of rage that had a class root. afterwards the turkish-kurdish community of london spoke on the streets about being against the imperial british police.

In the US, like everywhere else, politicians are shifting right but more and more are trickling into farther left politics it seems.


Also, missionary work doesnt work if you have no credibility of if no one knows the the hell you are. im sure the KKE could do door to door stuff effectively (albeit getting into fights probably with anarchists)

[thesadmafioso]

I have to disagree with the position of radical politics growing negatively. i think its the other way around.

the whole world over youve seen a moderate left shift in the politics of the people, not necessarily the governments. In Greece the KKE and Anarchists are very active and the KKE for example is still popular with at least 10-20% of the population.

In the UK the riots were a result of austerity measures and joblessness. it was an explosion of rage that had a class root. afterwards the turkish-kurdish community of london spoke on the streets about being against the imperial british police.

In the US, live everywhere else, politicians are shifting right but more and more are trickling into farther left politics it seems.


Also, missionary work doesnt work if you have no credibility of if no one knows the the hell you are. im sure the KKE could do door to door stuff effectively (albeit getting into fights probably with anarchists)

I certainly agree with you on this point, revolutionary activity and the conditions which allow for there spread are quickly rising. I meant the use of recession there to take on a broader scope of meaning, in the sense that it was saying that the US and other developed capitalist nations are still faced largely with non revolutionary situations.

That is not to say that I am ignorant of the struggles that still exist and that are emerging, I was just saying that they are not currently at a point where we should expect a massive uptick in political and class consciousness.

[#FF0000]

because we're a bunch of nerds who roleplay like it's early 20th century russia and do everything in our power to appeal more and more to awkward college philosophy club dorks and less to people who actually work for a living

[Rusty Shackleford]

I certainly agree with you on this point, revolutionary activity and the conditions which allow for there spread are quickly rising. I meant the use of recession there to take on a broader scope of meaning, in the sense that it was saying that the US and other developed capitalist nations are still faced largely with non revolutionary situations.

That is not to say that I am ignorant of the struggles that still exist and that are emerging, I was just saying that they are not currently at a point where we should expect a massive uptick in political and class consciousness.

In the West, the closest place to revolutionary struggle is probably Greece. But it is still a ways away from that.

and you are right, there isnt going to be any massive uptick in class consciousness(tied to class action, because without it then it doesnt matter) but there is still a revitalization going on right now, however weak it is.

[thesadmafioso]

In the West, the closest place to revolutionary struggle is probably Greece. But it is still a ways away from that.

and you are right, there isnt going to be any massive uptick in class consciousness(tied to class action, because without it then it doesnt matter) but there is still a revitalization going on right now, however weak it is.

And I never tried to deny the existence of the emerging class consciousness, I just don't think that it has reached a point where any situation for revolution has emerged as of yet.

The recent events in Greece and even to a lesser and more limited sense Britain show that progress is certainly being made on this front, but we are still quite far off from reaching any point where the masses are radicalized to a point where they would be able to sustain a movement capable making revolution possible.

[agnixie]

A local comrade tried to organize a month long anarchist propaganda creation campaign, including street level distribution and discussion. It lasted 16 days of the month before, as a friend put it, "crashing and burning." :D

I feel for him, I know how these sorts of rushes can go. Sadly they're sometimes more productive than 100 so-called propaganda of the deed actions because you don't have to then have the problem that people see the deed and don't get what it meant.

[Azula]

I am so sick of being on the fringe of politics, and it seems like attacking nazi's and scum doesnt seem to be working for us.. why dont we as a movement in general only attack if we are attacked and concentrate on trying to get known to the general public!! :confused:

Because we are too civilised.

We appear as academic and indecisive.

We must project an image of order, strength and certainty around ourselves. We must also believe in that image.

Then people will join us simply because they are afraid of us, or because we are the only ones who seem to be able to provide people with what they want.

[Obs]

Then people will join us simply because they are afraid of us
You are a psychopath who should stay away from all leftist organisations.

[Azula]

When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, they will choose the strong horse.

[Obs]

May I recommend you a book? It's called Atlas Shrugged. You'll love it.

[agnixie]

When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, they will choose the strong horse.

Sometimes horses are also taken out and shot.

[Azula]

In the west, leftism is generally associated with disorder and weakness.

We need new aesthetics and a new spirit, as well-organised as an army.

[Susurrus]

In the west, leftism is generally associated with disorder and weakness.

We need new aesthetics and a new spirit, as well-organised as an army.

Problem is, how to get that, and get people for that.

[thesadmafioso]

Because we are too civilised.

We appear as academic and indecisive.

We must project an image of order, strength and certainty around ourselves. We must also believe in that image.

Then people will join us simply because they are afraid of us, or because we are the only ones who seem to be able to provide people with what they want.

What the hell is going on in this topic? Paramilitary organizations, political intimidation, using fear to fabricate artificial support?

How is any of this even mildly communists? I hate to throw the word around, but these honestly sound like the sort of tactics applied by fascist organizations in their rise to power in Germany and Italy.

We seek to work with the people on behalf of their interests, they should align with our views out of their own accord and not out of the vague looming threat of aggression. Communists should work in conjunction with the proletariat and arm them with the revolutionary theory which will allow them to seize power, we do not need to resort to such disgusting political tactics.

[Pretty Flaco]

Left politics won't become more popular in the United States until the labor movement is reignited and strengthened. A bunch of little political groups bickering with one another over rhetoric and theory matters very little. What matters is working class organization. People don't realize that they have a lot more power in the workplace if they stand together and so the labor movement needs to regain momentum that it lost to show them that.

[Azula]

Problem is, how to get that, and get people for that.

Have zero tolerance against drug abuse within the movement should be a starter.

Also, the Party should offer martial arts training. It is very good for self-control and self-esteem.

Maybe party uniforms would be an idea. When the Party marches into a town, it should look like a military occupation is on the way.

[Azula]

What the hell is going on in this topic? Paramilitary organizations, political intimidation, using fear to fabricate artificial support?

How is any of this even mildly communists? I hate to throw the word around, but these honestly sound like the sort of tactics applied by fascist organizations in their rise to power in Germany and Italy.

We seek to work with the people on behalf of their interests, they should align with our views out of their own accord and not out of the vague looming threat of aggression. Communists should work in conjunction with the proletariat and arm them with the revolutionary theory which will allow them to seize power, we do not need to resort to such disgusting political tactics.

It is not a question of morality. It is a question of success.

[thesadmafioso]

Have zero tolerance against drug abuse within the movement should be a starter.

Also, the Party should offer martial arts training. It is very good for self-control and self-esteem.

Maybe party uniforms would be an idea. When the Party marches into a town, it should look like a military occupation is on the way.

Why on earth would you want to convey that message? How is a quasi military occupation suppose to emancipate the working class from the bounds of capitalism?

Absolutely none of what you are saying is based in any sort of communist theory and it is incredibly counter productive, if not mildly frightening. This is quite the disheartening dichotomy you are falling into here, and I can assure you that it will do nothing more than harm to any leftist movement should it actually be applied. I'm not even entirely convinced you are even a leftist at this point, honestly.

[agnixie]

In the west, leftism is generally associated with disorder and weakness.

We need new aesthetics and a new spirit, as well-organised as an army.

Yeah, so we can threaten violence and establish a politburo. Let's do this. And shoot you, first.

[Azula]

Why on earth would you want to convey that message? How is a quasi military occupation suppose to emancipate the working class from the bounds of capitalism? Absolutely none of what you are saying is based in any sort of communist theory and it is incredibly counter productive, if not mildly frightening.

Because it will impress the people and give them a sense of belonging, of security, of being a part of a grand purpose.

[Susurrus]

Have zero tolerance against drug abuse within the movement should be a starter.

Also, the Party should offer martial arts training. It is very good for self-control and self-esteem.

Maybe party uniforms would be an idea. When the Party marches into a town, it should look like a military occupation is on the way.

Well, I should think that the types of drugs should be taken into account, and the harmful ones should be banned, and we should help those addicted.

Yup, that would be a good idea.

I think that some sort of unifying thing is good. The Black Panthers had the right idea. Not so much a military occupation as people coming to help.

[thesadmafioso]

Because it will impress the people and give them a sense of belonging, of security, of being a part of a grand purpose.

Wow. Do you have a copy of Mein Kampf open on your desk at the moment? Perhaps some Mussolini speeches? I am perfectly aware that I've just broken goodwins law and all, but the similarities between this rhetoric and that of fascist organizations is simply too apparent to ignore.

The proletarian does not need some paramilitary band to give it belonging and purpose, it needs a vanguard party to blaze a path forward of revolution. They demands workers democracy and control over the means of production, not your borderline fascist drivel.

[Magón]

Azula, out of all the stuff that's been said on RevLeft, you take the cake when it comes to being the best at coming up with ideas that would alienate, rather than educate, people.

[Azula]

Well, I should think that the types of drugs should be taken into account, and the harmful ones should be banned, and we should help those addicted.

Yup, that would be a good idea.

I think that some sort of unifying thing is good. The Black Panthers had the right idea. Not so much a military occupation as people coming to help.

Yes. Columns of marching communists who are cleaning away sexist graffiti and helping to improve the local communities. That is also a part of how the new vanguard party should organise.

[Azula]

Azula, out of all the stuff that's been said on RevLeft, you take the cake when it comes to being the best at coming up with ideas that would alienate, rather than educate, people.

My idea is aimed at attracting the kind of people who actually are able to lead a revolution.

[Zealot]

Unfortunately, the left is often plagued with stupid tendency wars. They also tend to give a list of demands rather than explain why we want these things. We need to concentrate on raising class consciousness and critique the current economic crisis with a marxist analysis rather than run around screaming "see look what capitalism does!". We focus more on things that are of minor importance in the larger context; while it is important to help workers get paid more and etc I think efforts should be more focused on the overall system that brings the trouble in the first place. It makes me imagine an activist from the slave period campaigning to get slaves treated better rather than trying to abolish the system itself. Just thought I would throw it out there

[Susurrus]

Yes. Columns of marching communists who are cleaning away sexist graffiti and helping to improve the local communities. That is also a part of how the new vanguard party should organise.

Exactly! The organization of the people should radicalize and unify the people by helping them through direct action.

[Azula]

Unfortunately, the left is often plagued with stupid tendency wars. They also tend to give a list of demands rather than explain why we want these things. We need to concentrate on raising class consciousness and critique the current economic crisis with a marxist analysis rather than run around screaming "see look what capitalism does!". We focus more on things that are of minor importance in the larger context; while it is important to help workers get paid more and etc I think efforts should be more focused on the overall system that brings the trouble in the first place. It makes me imagine an activist from the slave period campaigning to get slaves treated better rather than trying to abolish the system itself. Just thought I would throw it out there

You are partially correct. At the same time however, people do not follow parties because of their programmes, but because of the likelihood that they actually are able to carry out their programmes.

[thesadmafioso]

My idea is aimed at attracting the kind of people who actually are able to lead a revolution.

No, they really are not. You aim to create an organization that is certainly not any sort of vanguard or organ of the working class. No worker in their right mind would possibly seen their interests being maintained by this sort of abomination of organizing.

[Azula]

No, they really are not. You aim to create an organization that is certainly not any sort of vanguard or organ of the working class. No worker in their right mind would possibly seen their interests being maintained by this sort of abomination of organizing.

Oh yes, they would.

There is a huge, unsatisfied demand of self-improvement today.

I know, I have been active in the sports movement for the better part of my life.

[thesadmafioso]

Oh yes, they would.

There is a huge, unsatisfied demand of self-improvement today.

I know, I have been active in the sports movement for the better part of my life.

Alright, you are correct. I can't deny that fascism is an ideology capable of coming to power in late capitalist society if it is no combated whenever the opportunity should arise. Fascists have applied paramilitary gangs of thugs to suppress labor movements with a great deal of effectiveness in the past, and they did it all while feeling the sort of sense of security and belonging that you describe, I'm sure.

And you lost me with that last bit, the sports movement?

[Susurrus]

Alright, you are correct. I can't deny that fascism is an ideology capable of coming to power in late capitalist society if it is no combated whenever the opportunity should arise. They have applied paramilitary gangs of thugs to suppress labor movements with a great deal of effectiveness in the past, and they did it all while feeling the sort of sense of security and belonging that you describe, I'm sure.


So we should combat the fascists. Your point?

[Azula]

Alright, you are correct. I can't deny that fascism is an ideology capable of coming to power in late capitalist society if it is no combated whenever the opportunity should arise. They have applied paramilitary gangs of thugs to suppress labor movements with a great deal of effectiveness in the past, and they did it all while feeling the sort of sense of security and belonging that you describe, I'm sure.

And you lost me with that last bit, the sports movement?

I am not aiming to form a fascist party, but a Marxist-Leninist Vanguard.

I have been active in gymnastics since I was five. Then I have played in a junior girl team in bandy. And most recently, I started to practice Hung Gar Kung Fu.

I have, of course, excelled in all sports.

[thesadmafioso]

So we should combat the fascists. Your point?

My point is that the tactics of organization that are being discussed hardly sound like those of a proper Leninist vanguard. So far as I know, no one here is literally a fascist, I am merely pointing out some odd similarities which should not be able to be made in this sort of discussion.



I am not aiming to form a fascist party, but a Marxist-Leninist Vanguard.

I have been active in gymnastics since I was five. Then I have played in a junior girl team in bandy. And most recently, I started to practice Hung Gar Kung Fu.

I have, of course, excelled in all sports.

I know your not, as I don't think you are actually a fascist. But the point still stands that what you describe hardly fits the description of what an actual Leninist vanguard party would look like and that it shares some peculiar features with the structure of historical fascist organizations.

Also, the Leninist vanguard party is not some bloody sports team. I have no idea why you are trying to make this comparison, but it really has no place here.

[agnixie]

I am not aiming to form a fascist party, but a Marxist-Leninist Vanguard.

I have been active in gymnastics since I was five. Then I have played in a junior girl team in bandy. And most recently, I started to practice Hung Gar Kung Fu.

I have, of course, excelled in all sports.

Your marxist leninist vanguard doesn't sound leninist, let alone marxist. A lot of your bullshit could have been taken from Mussolini.

Also, on top of being an unconvincing troll, you're also now a mary sue. Can we just ban you restrict or ban you now and be done with it?

[Obs]

I am not aiming to form a fascist party, but a Marxist-Leninist Vanguard.

I have been active in gymnastics since I was five. Then I have played in a junior girl team in bandy. And most recently, I started to practice Hung Gar Kung Fu.

I have, of course, excelled in all sports.
I get laid. What's your point?

[Arlekino]

In our right wing media is impossible to reach our revolutionary voice and people are not too loyal to socialism or communism. Society so afraid of socialism probably planet will collapse or something like that, even we can't get good leadership because leaders would not know how to deal with right wingers.

[maskerade]

Maybe all current leftist parties should disband themselves, or at least stop with their intellectual masturbation regarding theories and abstract critiques.

We're irrelevant not only because the media narratives have successfully managed to portray us as incompetent and evil, but also because we perpetuate that very idea ourselves.

[Kadir Ateş]

Wanna be at the forefront? Fight your boss when the wages get bad, when you're overworked with no time and a half, when they try to get you to rat on your fellow workers. Worth more than a thousand jargon-laden pamphlets that nobody reads.

[Rooster]

My idea is aimed at attracting the kind of people who actually are able to lead a revolution.

You mean the proletariat, right?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You are partially correct. At the same time however, people do not follow parties because of their programmes, but because of the likelihood that they actually are able to carry out their programmes.

You miss the point.

A party convincing the working class to follow them into power, so that they can enact reforms on the working classes behalf is not Socialism.

Socialism is empowering the working class to lead society into power. You seem not to understand this.

[#FF0000]

Azula is my new favorite poster

[KC]

I'm pretty sure Azula is either a troll, a sock, or both.

[Tomhet]

Have zero tolerance against drug abuse within the movement should be a starter.
What did you have in mind, start beating up drug users?!
Also, the Party should offer martial arts training. It is very good for self-control and self-esteem.
Not everyone is effected the same way..
Maybe party uniforms would be an idea. When the Party marches into a town, it should look like a military occupation is on the way.\
Why would we want to alienate the working class though I mean the working class doesn't need a 'military occupation', as a matter of fact the working class is under military occupation, capitalism....

[Azula]

You mean the proletariat, right?

The best individuals within the proletariat.

Leading a revolution is not the same thing as partaking in one.

[agnixie]

The best individuals within the proletariat.

Leading a revolution is not the same thing as partaking in one.

Has anyone ever told you your roleplay character had control issues? This kind of elitism would be more at home with fascists.

[thesadmafioso]

I think Azula is quite possibly the best troll to ever troll the halls of Revleft. I mean, look at their post count, it is absolutely insane for just having joined the site.

At the very least, they clearly have a passionate devotion to their zealous love of fascist organizing.

[Coach Trotsky]

PLEASE read this post:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/august-uprising-britain-t160007/index.html?t=160007

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

What, y'all expect to have a leftist site without a few people that have been brainwashed into a beaurocratic leftism from poorer parts of the world showing up? And when they do you get angry at them for their bad theory?

@Azula, if you're talking in good faith, then I'm sorry if I'm presuming too much. It's certainly how you come across though. Please apply the dialectic to your ideas. You'll find logical errors.

[Obs]

What, y'all expect to have a leftist site without a few people that have been brainwashed into a beaurocratic leftism from poorer parts of the world showing up? And when they do you get angry at them for their bad theory?
Yes.

[KurtFF8]

What, y'all expect to have a leftist site without a few people that have been brainwashed into a beaurocratic leftism from poorer parts of the world showing up? And when they do you get angry at them for their bad theory?

So folks in high academia have the better theory then? Maybe I'm confused by the intent/meaning of your post.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

So folks in high academia have the better theory then? Maybe I'm confused by the intent/meaning of your post.I just think that leftists tend to bully people when it doesn't accomplish anything, particularly Lenin and his admirers. You should take a stab at convincing someone their logic is bad, and if they won't even attempt to see your point ignore them. Have some empathy and patience. We've established that we think Azula is very, very, very, wrong, the task is to point out to our potential comrade why he or she is wrong.

For example he or she mentioned cleaning up graffiti. Ask: why would that be a good thing? Isn't graffiti the raw, ugly, screaming of people who are constantly told the same lie by their TV, their books and magazines, their teachers, and their leaders but never given a chance to respond and defend their dignity and explain their poverty?

Of course I don't know this poster and I've been a little drunk both times I've posed, so maybe I'm totally off.

[KurtFF8]

I just think that leftists tend to bully people when it doesn't accomplish anything, particularly Lenin and his admirers. You should take a stab at convincing someone their logic is bad, and if they won't even attempt to see your point ignore them. Have some empathy and patience. We've established that we think Azula is very, very, very, wrong, the task is to point out to our potential comrade why he or she is wrong.

For example he or she mentioned cleaning up graffiti. Ask: why would that be a good thing? Isn't graffiti the raw, ugly, screaming of people who are constantly told the same lie by their TV, their books and magazines, their teachers, and their leaders but never given a chance to respond and defend their dignity and explain their poverty?

Of course I don't know this poster and I've been a little drunk both times I've posed, so maybe I'm totally off.

I mean I think you should always point out to someone when you feel that their analysis is quite off. But the idea that their analysis is wrong because they come from "poorer parts of the world" seems quite absurd to me, since it's the poorer parts of the world that have had much more success in terms of revolutionary movements in the entirety of the post-WWII era than folks who are involved in academia in the "advance industrialized" nations.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Well yeah, it's way harder to have a revolution in the US or China but if you have one anywhere else you still get conquered or blockaded by the US and China if you try to take your revolution in a direction that could actually achieve a socialism.

That's why I used "poor". It's easy to take power in poor countries, and most of the time the instigator of the revolution is just using socialism to take power. So backwards slave states are created for the instigators and their parties, in the name of the proletariat.

That's not to say that individuals from poor "socialist" countries should be assumed to have bad logic. We should just be aware that there are billions of people out there with a different set of brainwashing that the majority on revleft have. Americans don't know what socialism is but think it's evil, North Koreans don't know what it is and think it's good.

[00000000000]

We won't see a true revolutionary movement taking flight in the West in our lifetime, or even in the next few generations.
We are not relevant to the masses right now or they don't think we are relevant.
Who wants a revolution when you have cap's promise of gadgets, nationalism's promise of pride and a sense of power...the Left can't offer the quick, populist ideas that appeal to the current majority.

[thesadmafioso]

We won't see a true revolutionary movement taking flight in the West in our lifetime, or even in the next few generations.
We are not relevant to the masses right now or they don't think we are relevant.
Who wants a revolution when you have cap's promise of gadgets, nationalism's promise of pride and a sense of power...the Left can't offer the quick, populist ideas that appeal to the current majority.

You should not be so easy to discourage, the conditions of reaction which capitalist societies are currently experiencing only serve to prime the working class for revolutionary action. The situation in the western nations of developed capitalist may seem dire now, but as history has shown time and time again, revolution is quite impossible to accurately predict. After the July Days of 1917, Lenin was actually convinced that the situation had lost its revolutionary conditions. How incorrect he turned out to be!

The point here being that it is a most difficult act to predict revolution and the time for its emergence and that you shouldn't take such a strong stand against its chance of arising.

[Tim Finnegan]

We won't see a true revolutionary movement taking flight in the West in our lifetime, or even in the next few generations.
We are not relevant to the masses right now or they don't think we are relevant.
Who wants a revolution when you have cap's promise of gadgets, nationalism's promise of pride and a sense of power...the Left can't offer the quick, populist ideas that appeal to the current majority.
And here I thought that we were materialists... :huh:

[00000000000]

Fair enough, suppose it's true what they say about assumptions...I'm just cynical and easily discouraged by the current state of affairs