Hate crime laws (inclusion of women)

[Azula]

One thing which has been bothering me.

It is illegal to for example verbally attack ethnic minorities or slur them. In a few countries, it is also illegal to slur members of the LGBTQ community.

At the same time, it is legal to write or state really horrendous things about women.

Women are 51% of humanity. We are doing 60% of the total work. Several millions of us are raped or killed by men every year. Yet, sexism seems perfectly fine amongst males to tell tasteless jokes about us, denigrate us (porn industry) and discriminate against us.

I believe that hate crime laws should be stricter, bringing prison sentences instead of fines.

I also think that women should be included in hate crime laws. It should be illegal to:

Make pornography where females are abused, either in script or as actors.

Promote violence against women.

Promote the pick-up artist culture (blogs like Roissy in D.C).

Promote Pro-life positions which are heavily abusive against women.

What do you think about the subject?

[Sensible Socialist]

I don't want to come off as some liberal wanker who clings to the word freedom without knowing what it means, but your ideas cut severely into any concept of free speech. Instead of banning certain types of pornography, why not get to the root of the problem instead? If two consenting adults want to make a certain type of video, who are you to stop them? What authority do you have to judge their actions? I'm not about to cut into the private lives of two people to make an ideological point.

You want to make promoting pro-life positions illegal? Are there any other political positions you'd like banned, dear Supreme Leader?

[Azula]

Pornography is not about two persons agreeing to make a film, but about the exploitation of people. Many porn actresses are East European or people of colour.

it is usual with exploitative relations within porn, where females are hooked on drugs in order to still their angst.

Many female (and male) porn actors have physical injuries.

To not speak about the reactionary message which porn perverts the next generation with, where males are abusing females sexually.

It is not about the personal life any more when it has been turned into a commercial practice.

And even if it was a matter of their personal life, we cannot allow abusive relationships to exist. The society needs to prevent that females are exploited by males.

[RGacky3]

It is illegal to for example verbally attack ethnic minorities or slur them. In a few countries, it is also illegal to slur members of the LGBTQ community.


Not its not, it is perfectly legal in almost all countries to verbally attack ethnic minorities.

In many countries it is shunned and condemned as it should be, but it is not illigal, nor should it be.


Pornography is not about two persons agreeing to make a film, but about the exploitation of people. Many porn actresses are East European or people of colour.


All labor is exploitation, all wage labor should be illigal.


And even if it was a matter of their personal life, we cannot allow abusive relationships to exist. The society needs to prevent that females are exploited by males.

I agree, and that should happen by education and criminalizing abuse, not speach.

YOu really have no concept of free speach do you?

The way you get rid of anti-social behavior is by getting rid of the causes of it, not by banning speach, thy tried that in Germany with neo-nazis look how well that went.

[Azula]

It went quite well in Germany.

Their racist parties have no representation on the federal level.

[NGNM85]

One thing which has been bothering me.

It is illegal to for example verbally attack ethnic minorities or slur them. In a few countries, it is also illegal to slur members of the LGBTQ community.

Not in the United States.


At the same time, it is legal to write or state really horrendous things about women.

Yes.


Women are 51% of humanity.

Yes.


We are doing 60% of the total work.

How are you coming up with this number?



Several millions of us are raped or killed by men every year.

That is true, and horrifying. However, it bears mentioning that;

A: Overwhelmingly, the victims of homicides committed by men are other men. We are statistically far more likely to kill eachother, than to kill you.

B: Men may commit the majority of homicides, but men do not have a monopoly on homicide. Similarly, not all rape victims are women, and not all sexual predators are men.


Yet, sexism seems perfectly fine amongst males to tell tasteless jokes about us, denigrate us (porn industry) and discriminate against us.

It's not 'perfectly fine', at least not in all cases, it's just not illegal.


I believe that hate crime laws should be stricter, bringing prison sentences instead of fines.
I also think that women should be included in hate crime laws. It should be illegal to:
Make pornography where females are abused, either in script or as actors.
Promote violence against women.
Promote the pick-up artist culture (blogs like Roissy in D.C).
Promote Pro-life positions which are heavily abusive against women.
What do you think about the subject?

Putting this as nicely as I can, I think you are horribly misguided. What you are suggesting is deeply authoritarian, and an assault on free speech. Unlike many issues, free speech is a binary issue, you're either for it, or you're against it. Supporting free speech means protecting speech you find, personally, abhorrent. As an Anarchist, I couldn't disagree more. That isn't to say some of the greivances you've mentioned aren't legitimate, but the remedy you propose is even worse.

[Azula]

Putting this as nicely as I can, I think you are horribly misguided. What you are suggesting is deeply authoritarian, and an assault on free speech. Unlike many issues, free speech is a binary issue, you're either for it, or you're against it. Supporting free speech means protecting speech you find, personally, abhorrent. As an Anarchist, I couldn't disagree more. That isn't to say some of the greivances you've mentioned aren't legitimate, but the remedy you propose is even worse.

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?

I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.

Authoritarianism is sensible in many cases.

Look at it like this:

It is authoritarian to force people who are carrying Tuberculosis to go to a doctor. They might not want it, but the risk for an epidemic outweighs the individual's integrity.

It is authoritarian to force children to go to school, but the alternative is a generation of illiterates.

It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).

It is authoritarian to put murderers in prison, but... well, isn't it obvious?

[gendoikari]

Women are 51% of humanity. We are doing 60% of the total work.

wait.... WHAT... you want to make the case for quotas because women are underrepresented in the workplace and yet you say they do 60% of the work? your logic train has derailed.


It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).

yes the government has no right to tell you what you can do to YOUR body.

[Azula]

wait.... WHAT... you want to make the case for quotas because women are underrepresented in the workplace and yet you say they do 60% of the work? your logic train has derailed.



yes the government has no right to tell you what you can do to YOUR body.

Most women in the world are countryside or slum-dwelling females in the Third World who work very hard both on the fields and with raising their families.

[Azula]

yes the government has no right to tell you what you can do to YOUR body.

The society has the right to prevent people to stray too far off from what is beneficial for the individual and for society.

[Magón]

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?

I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.

Find a quote or something substantial, to back up that the women in porn are forced into these rolls, and aren't doing it because of their own free will.


It is authoritarian to force people who are carrying Tuberculosis to go to a doctor. They might not want it, but the risk for an epidemic outweighs the individual's integrity.

Strawman.


It is authoritarian to force children to go to school, but the alternative is a generation of illiterates.

Strawman.


It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).

Maybe the way drugs are handled in the first place, aren't the best they could be?


It is authoritarian to put murderers in prison, but... well, isn't it obvious?

Removing someone from society, who's infringed on another person's autonomy and will to live, isn't authoritarian, it's a measure to make sure that person can no longer inflict harm on any other autonomous and person wanting to live. It's common sense. How they're handled in prison on the other hand, is another matter.

[NGNM85]

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?

If I’d intended to say that, I would’ve said that. This is one of those; ‘So how long have you been beating your wife, sir?’ kind of things. Please. I think you can do better.

I’m against anyone being forced to do anything, unless it’s justified by a heavy burden of proof.

I’m for consenting adults being able to do what they want, as long as it doesn’t infringe upon, or endanger the rights of others. If adults want to make pornographic movies, that’s their business. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. Problem solved.

I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.
I think most homosexual men would argue that blowjobs and/or anal sex are not inherently disgusting, degrading, or brutalizing.

Authoritarianism is sensible in many cases.
There is a difference between exercising authority, and authoritarianism.

Look at it like this:
It is authoritarian to force people who are carrying Tuberculosis to go to a doctor. They might not want it, but the risk for an epidemic outweighs the individual's integrity.
That does not qualify one as an authoritarian. That is perfectly sensible, and justified.

It is authoritarian to force children to go to school, but the alternative is a generation of illiterates.
Children are not sufficiently aware or responsible enough to make decisions like these, so we make them for them, until they reach adulthood. Again; this is a perfectly sensible and justified exercise of authority, that meets the burden of proof.

It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).
I think all drugs should be legalized, or decriminalized.

It is authoritarian to put murderers in prison, but... well, isn't it obvious?
See above.

[Azula]

What you have done is that you have explained away every action conducted against something you don't like as "not authoritarian".

The boat is floating.

But it is sinking.

[NGNM85]

What you have done is that you have explained away every action conducted against something you don't like as "not authoritarian".

The boat is floating.

But it is sinking.

No, this is a simple, fundamental distinction. Simply exercising authority does not necessarily make one an Authoritarian. Libertarians do not oppose all authority, in all forms. Libertarians do believe that people should be granted the maximum amount of freedom in their personal and public lives, and that any exercise of authority must be justified by a heavy burden of proof, increasing proportionally to the degree of authority being exercised. What you're describing is antithetical to Libertarianism.

[Judicator]

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?

I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.

You might find it disgusting, but as long as the individuals making the movie are both consenting adults, their production and sale of the movie doesn't violate anyone's rights, so why stop it?

[RGacky3]

It went quite well in Germany.

Their racist parties have no representation on the federal level.

THeir skinhead problem is huge, much larger than in the US.


Most women in the world are countryside or slum-dwelling females in the Third World who work very hard both on the fields and with raising their families.

And so are most of the men.


So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?

I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.


The female is not forced, any more than a poor coal mine worker is forced to risk his life and health everyday to go in an unsafe coal mine (many of them cut costs on safety).

Look I find both situations to be wrong, not the act itself, but the economic coersion involved. But just because one is sex and the other is not does'nt make one worse than the other.

On a sexual level, different strokes for different folks, many women like anal sex.

[#FF0000]

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?

I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.

There's nothing wrong with pornography (no matter the content) as long as the people in it are consenting and are of age. I mean obviously the point you make about many pornstars being eastern european, poor, etc. etc. etc. is something to consider but then the problem is the industry, not necessarily porn itself.

[LegendZ]

One thing which has been bothering me.

It is illegal to for example verbally attack ethnic minorities or slur them. In a few countries, it is also illegal to slur members of the LGBTQ community.

At the same time, it is legal to write or state really horrendous things about women. Both happen in the US


I believe that hate crime laws should be stricter, bringing prison sentences instead of fines.Don't we all?


I also think that women should be included in hate crime laws. It should be illegal to:

Make pornography where females are abused, either in script or as actors.Ok infringing on rights... there are women that like being dominated just as there are men who like being dominated.


Promote violence against women.Who does this?


Promote the pick-up artist culture (blogs like Roissy in D.C).Why should this be illegal? Do you know anything about the PUA culture or have you just heard the stereotype about it and based your opinion on that with an obvious bias.


Promote Pro-life positions which are heavily abusive against women.Free speech?


What do you think about the subject?I think you are trying to be overly protective of women. At the same time you are bordering on violating rights.

[#FF0000]

tbh i think a lot of these problems can helped a little bit by executing every bro which i think everyone can support

[Demogorgon]

The society has the right to prevent people to stray too far off from what is beneficial for the individual and for society.
You are defining "straying too far" as absolutely anything that slightly offends you. You see the problem?

Incidentally you seem to have a strange view of the way hate crime laws work. They don't ban any kind of expression of intolerance, rather they put added sanctions against crimes committed due to hatred.

What you want is a society of thought police with people in fear of what they say, lest it be interpreted as violating the very narrow confines of what you accept.

[Zealot]

One thing which has been bothering me.

It is illegal to for example verbally attack ethnic minorities or slur them. In a few countries, it is also illegal to slur members of the LGBTQ community.

Really?


At the same time, it is legal to write or state really horrendous things about women.

Women are 51% of humanity. We are doing 60% of the total work. Several millions of us are raped or killed by men every year. Yet, sexism seems perfectly fine amongst males to tell tasteless jokes about us, denigrate us (porn industry) and discriminate against us.

No it's not perfectly fine at all, I don't think anyone here promotes that.


I also think that women should be included in hate crime laws. It should be illegal to:

Make pornography where females are abused, either in script or as actors.
I agree, to a point. Some pornography can be degrading and often reinforces sexist stereotypes. Your other claims are debatable though.


Promote the pick-up artist culture (blogs like Roissy in D.C).

A lot of that seems to be about money (i think) and for incompetent men, don't make me pull out some Marx :lol:


Promote Pro-life positions which are heavily abusive against women.

Sorry but is this directed towards us? Hope not. You're right but this is impinging on free speech to a degree

[Demogorgon]

Incidentally, if I were to make a point with no subtlety at all, I could point out that Azula identifies herself as a Hoxhaist. Given theextreme pro-life position of that particular regime, not to mention the hideous homophobia, simply supporting Hoxha could be considered a very sexist and homophobic position. Is Azula arguing that she herself should be persecuted as a result? Or perhaps would she in fact prefer some leeway for free debate?

[Azula]

Really?

Yes, in more developed countries at least.


No it's not perfectly fine at all, I don't think anyone here promotes that.

Good.


Sorry but is this directed towards us? Hope not. You're right but this is impinging on free speech to a degree

And pro-lifers infringe on a woman's right to choose. If they get into power, they will abuse females and deprive her of the control of her own body.

Therefore, we have to illegalise their ideas in order to defend ourselves.



Incidentally, if I were to make a point with no subtlety at all, I could point out that Azula identifies herself as a Hoxhaist. Given theextreme pro-life position of that particular regime, not to mention the hideous homophobia, simply supporting Hoxha could be considered a very sexist and homophobic position. Is Azula arguing that she herself should be persecuted as a result? Or perhaps would she in fact prefer some leeway for free debate?

And Marx treated his wife badly.

So what?

I am not upholding Socialist Albania because of their gender equality laws, but because Hoxha had the correct line of thinking.

[RGacky3]

Yes, in more developed countries at least.


Like what, the only one I know of is sweeden.


And pro-lifers infringe on a woman's right to choose. If they get into power, they will abuse females and deprive her of the control of her own body.

Therefore, we have to illegalise their ideas in order to defend ourselves.


No you argue against them, if someone in power has the right to illigalize ideas your basically justifying banning your own ideas as well.

[Azula]

No you argue against them, if someone in power has the right to illigalize ideas your basically justifying banning your own ideas as well.

All ideas are not equivalent.

Some ideas are correct, and some ideas are not.

You are not allowed to teach that the world is flat at college.

Pro-life ideas are incorrect and therefore wrong and should therefore be combatted.

Pro-choice ideas are the correct line of thinking.

[RGacky3]

You are not allowed to teach that the world is flat at college.


Yeah you are, infact you can stand up all day long and say the world is flat, you'll get fired, but thats not banning anything.


Pro-life ideas are incorrect and therefore wrong and should therefore be combatted.

Pro-choice ideas are the correct line of thinking.

So who gets to choose which ideas are wrong and which are right? Which ideas get banned and which do not?

[Azula]

So who gets to choose which ideas are wrong and which are right? Which ideas get banned and which do not?

The working class?

[PhoenixAsh]

Women are 51% of humanity. We are doing 60% of the total work.

No...they are not. I have pointed this out before. World wide there are 102 men for every 100 women.

I would like you to give us some statistical evidence for your assertion that women do 60% of the work....and your definition of what you mean by work.

[PhoenixAsh]

The working class?

ah...the same working class which you accuse of being sexist and mysogenist?

[Azula]

ah...the same working class which you accuse of being sexist and mysogenist?

Where have I spoken about that? I have never claimed anything like that.

Do you believe that the working class is reactionary?

[Azula]

(Double Post)

[RGacky3]

The working class?

So lets say the working class is pro-life, will you accept that you will have to go to prison if you speak your mind?

So they decide that they are pro-life and CASE CLOSED, you go to a gulag if you open your mouth about it.

Why are you against free speach?

[Nox]

Why are you against free speach?

Ideas are more powerful than guns. We do not let our enemy have guns, so why should we let them have ideas?

[Nox]

So lets say the working class is pro-life, will you accept that you will have to go to prison if you speak your mind?

That's like saying 'What if the working class wants to go back to Capitalism?'

It's an absurd idea and will never happen.

[Azula]

That would be false consciousness. The working class are on the side of progress, and would of course manifest the progress in an ideologically correct manner.

[gendoikari]

Yeah you are, infact you can stand up all day long and say the world is flat, you'll get fired, but thats not banning anything.

actually you won't be fired, you'll quit.... from being laughed out of town.


So who gets to choose which ideas are wrong and which are right? Which ideas get banned and which do not?

Apparently our dear supreme ruler Azula here. Just let me know when then start to put us in the breeding camps. I'll hide out till all the "untouchables" are exterminated and sneak in, have some fun, and then organize a revolt.


I would like you to give us some statistical evidence for your assertion that women do 60% of the work....and your definition of what you mean by work.

because men are obviously lazy ass motherfuckers.

[RGacky3]

That's like saying 'What if the working class wants to go back to Capitalism?'

It's an absurd idea and will never happen.

Capitalism is an economic concept, and btw, if thats the case why would you need to bann speach? Do you need to ban pro-monarchy speech because your afraid it might catch on???



That would be false consciousness. The working class are on the side of progress, and would of course manifest the progress in an ideologically correct manner.


I suppose the working class in China was representing in Mao right?


Ideas are more powerful than guns. We do not let our enemy have guns, so why should we let them have ideas?

Because thats idiotic semantics, ideas, and freedom of ideas are the basis of democracy, you cannot have democracy without freedom of speach, and without both of those you cannot have socialism.

[Azula]

I suppose the working class in China was representing in Mao right?

Yes. Now you start to understand.


Because thats idiotic semantics, ideas, and freedom of ideas are the basis of democracy, you cannot have democracy without freedom of speach, and without both of those you cannot have socialism.

And you cannot have socialism without defending it. The more exposed and vulnerable it is, the more authoritarian it has to get in order to survive in a hostile world.

[Nox]

Capitalism is an economic concept, and btw, if thats the case why would you need to bann speach? ?


It doesn't matter what type of concept it is. They are both absurd concepts that will never actually happen in real life.

[Nox]

And you cannot have socialism without defending it. The more exposed and vulnerable it is, the more authoritarian it has to get in order to survive in a hostile world.

True dat. That's why Anarchism is so ideal but also unrealistic.

[RGacky3]

Yes. Now you start to understand.


I'm being sarcastic, saying mao represented the working class is close to diafication.


It doesn't matter what type of concept it is. They are both absurd concepts that will never actually happen in real life.

yeah so then why ban it? Unless your not confident your ideas are progressive,


And you cannot have socialism without defending it. The more exposed and vulnerable it is, the more authoritarian it has to get in order to survive in a hostile world.

Yeah you defend it, authoriatriansim does'nt defend shit, unless your afraid of the people, which stalin was and was mao, because they wanted to protect themselves from their own population, why? Because their power was unjustified.

Authoritarianism does'nt defend a country from outside forces, it defends a dictator (or ruling class) from the people.

[#FF0000]

The working class?

How?

[#FF0000]

Ideas are more powerful than guns. We do not let our enemy have guns, so why should we let them have ideas?

Think about this for a minute and try and see what is problematic about this dumb quote

[PhoenixAsh]

That's like saying 'What if the working class wants to go back to Capitalism?'

It's an absurd idea and will never happen.

Like...you know...the USSR? Poland? And just about every other country which ever had something that professed to be socialist in manner which Azula supports?

[Demogorgon]

I am not upholding Socialist Albania because of their gender equality laws, but because Hoxha had the correct line of thinking.
One questions the sanity of someone who thinks that, but I'll let that slide and home in on the key point.

You have advocated making illegal anything that might be pro-life or homophobic, yet you explicitly identify yourself with one of the most pro-life and homophobic regimes in history. You can see why there appears to be some cognitive dissonance on your part, I think?

[Demogorgon]

Like...you know...the USSR? Poland? And just about every other country which ever had something that professed to be socialist in manner which Azula supports?
Yeah, that's what always gets me. It is clear that all of these countries turned to Western style economics as a result of internal events, yet the usual suspects tell us they were democratic and worker run. For both of these to be true, it would involve the working class voluntarily returning to capitalism.

[Skooma Addict]

One thing which has been bothering me.

It is illegal to for example verbally attack ethnic minorities or slur them. In a few countries, it is also illegal to slur members of the LGBTQ community.Two wrongs don't make a right. It shouldn't be illegal to slur or insult anybody.



At the same time, it is legal to write or state really horrendous things about women.So? You can write or state horrendous things about men.


Women are 51% of humanity. We are doing 60% of the total work. Several millions of us are raped or killed by men every year. Yet, sexism seems perfectly fine amongst males to tell tasteless jokes about us, denigrate us (porn industry) and discriminate against us.What do you mean you are doing 60% of the total work? Also, telling jokes is a little different than raping or killing people. It is also perfectly fine for males to tell jokes about other males. You say porn is denigrating but it is consensual, and plenty of people find their jobs denigrating.


I believe that hate crime laws should be stricter, bringing prison sentences instead of fines.
You are a nutjob who should not be taken seriously.


I also think that women should be included in hate crime laws. It should be illegal to:

Make pornography where females are abused, either in script or as actors.

Promote violence against women.

Promote the pick-up artist culture (blogs like Roissy in D.C).

Promote Pro-life positions which are heavily abusive against women.

What do you think about the subject?Hate crime laws should be abolished.

Idk what you mean by "promote violence." Would it be okay to promote violence against men but not women?

You are against free speech. Most feminists attempt to hide this belief of theirs, but I appreciate how you come right out and say it.

Against free speech.

Get used to life.

[DinodudeEpic]

Yeah, limit our rights to free speech! We've got to help those poor hardworking women against the lazy-ass hairy males who want to sexually exploit them. Free speech is for the weak! Authoritarianism FTW! Unleash the gulags! Hail Supreme leader Azula! Quee-I mean great People's Primer of the Democratic People's Republic of Tyr-I mean Worker's Liberation! Don't kill me! /Sarcasm with lots of humorous effect

Anyways, why is this forum so conductive to authoritarianism via limiting free speech, fetishizing dictators who use socialist rhetoric to enslave their peoples, and not caring much about civil liberties and democracy problems at all. (Electoral college in the USA, rights of free speech across the world, corporations corrupting the democratic process.)

It's really stupid, ruins our name even more, and even more. Like how many fascists were former socialists, and how there was never a stable country where the workers own the means of production with corporate/state coercion.

As for limiting hate speech, I think everyone else has covered this well. All I'm doing is stating what's wrong with the people around here since Azula here just threw in the final straw.

[#FF0000]

Anyways, why is this forum so conductive to authoritarianism via limiting free speech, fetishizing dictators who use socialist rhetoric to enslave their peoples, and not caring much about civil liberties and democracy problems at all. (Electoral college in the USA, rights of free speech across the world, corporations corrupting the democratic process.)

I don't know what you're talking about.


how there was never a stable country where the workers own the means of production with corporate/state coercion.

there was never a country where the workers controlled the means of production, period.

[DinodudeEpic]

Well, there was Anarchist Catalonia, Anarchist Ukraine, the Paris Commune, and the Russians did have Soviets during the year of 1917. But, they were very short-lived/abandoning socialism quickly. Note the word stable.

I meant that many of users fetishize people like Stalin, Fidel, and Mao. And then, they pretty much call anyone who opposes their attitudes 'Liberals'. Some of the users (As exemplified by the thread.) apparently like to limit free speech. And, the current Socialist movement as a whole focuses too much on the economy, and not on actual civil liberties and rights. The fetishism I talk about above also plagues the movement quite a bit.

[#FF0000]

I meant that many of users fetishize people like Stalin, Fidel, and Mao.

I don't see this. At worst there's a handful of people who roleplay. Other than that, they're sure are maoists (not many) and Marxist-Leninists (not many serious ones), but they hardly "fetishize" stalin and mao.

And I am no fan of Marxism-Leninism of Maoism.


And then, they pretty much call anyone who opposes their attitudes 'Liberals'.

Well man, I have to be honest, the people who complain most about people throwing around the word "liberal" are uh, pretty liberal I think.

Still it's a dumb political slur w/e.


Some of the users (As exemplified by the thread.) apparently like to limit free speech. And, the current Socialist movement as a whole focuses too much on the economy, and not on actual civil liberties and rights. The fetishism I talk about above also plagues the movement quite a bit.

real talk, not trying to be a dick, but do you actually have anything to do with the "socialist movement" outside of revleft?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Pornography is not about two persons agreeing to make a film, but about the exploitation of people. Many porn actresses are East European or people of colour.

The most popular porn site on the internet today is an amateur porn site (YouPorn).


And even if it was a matter of their personal life, we cannot allow abusive relationships to exist. The society needs to prevent that females are exploited by males.

So this would mean that, say, role-play or consensual BDSM would be banned?

It's not for us to interfer in the minutiae of people's lives in such a manner.

[Azula]

So this would mean that, say, role-play or consensual BDSM would be banned?

It should at least be condemned as exploitative and supportive of reactionary institutions.

Do you use to watch Youporn?

[gendoikari]

It should at least be condemned as exploitative and supportive of reactionary institutions.

Do you use to watch Youporn?

What about female dominatrix's

[Azula]

What about female dominatrix's

That, on the other hand, is theoretically acceptable, since it is showing females as the stronger gender.

[gendoikari]

That, on the other hand, is theoretically acceptable, since it is showing females as the stronger gender.

See that's just reverse of the sexism, not that I have any problem with female domination in the bedroom. But is a bit hypocritical.

[Azula]

It is not sexism, it is anti-sexism.

A man denigrating a woman on film = Sexism

A woman denigrating a man on film = Anti-sexism

[Nox]

It is not sexism, it is anti-sexism.

A man denigrating a woman on film = Sexism

A woman denigrating a man on film = Sexism in the opposite direction

fix'd

[#FF0000]

It is not sexism, it is anti-sexism.

A man denigrating a woman on film = Sexism

A woman denigrating a man on film = Anti-sexism

man you have to be a troll

[#FF0000]

fix'd

wrong. the correction would be "Still sexism".

The thing is, we live in a patriarchal society and all soooooo

[Azula]

man you have to be a troll

I am not a troll.

Dominant females on media are a generally speaking progressive feature.

[#FF0000]

It should at least be condemned as exploitative and supportive of reactionary institutions.

Actually it should be deemed a private matter and literally no more thought should be given to it. It is not supportive of reactionary institutions because what people do in the bedroom has nothing to do with anything else. People who like to be dominant and aggressive in the bedroom aren't necessarily dominating and aggressive people in general.

[#FF0000]

I am not a troll.

Dominant females on media are a generally speaking progressive feature.

Depends. What I am saying, though, is that a matriarchal society is just as sexist as a patriarchal society.

[Azula]

And I am not striving towards a matriarchy. I am striving towards female empowerment.

[Magón]

I am striving towards female empowerment.

You keep using that line, but it really isn't working for you, since wanting women more empowered then men is just as sexist as men over women. Neither side wins when the other wants more power over the other, they should come to realize neither is better or worse, they're just equals.

[#FF0000]

And I am not striving towards a matriarchy. I am striving towards female empowerment.

That's fine, as long as, like Nin says, the aim is legitimate equality, and not the dominance of one over the other.

[Dogs On Acid]

What's wrong with the Pick-Up Artist scene and Amateur pornography? The rest I agree on.

[Azula]

What's wrong with the Pick-Up Artist scene? The rest I agree on.

It is sexist? Assuming that females *want* to be dominated.

[#FF0000]

What's wrong with the Pick-Up Artist scene? The rest I agree on.

Nothing if you're the most pathetic dude alive i guess

[gendoikari]

It is sexist? Assuming that females *want* to be dominated.

some do, most don't. Same with men. Point being, who are you to tell them what they can do with their own bodies?

[#FF0000]

some do, most don't. Same with men. Point being, who are you to tell them what they can do with their own bodies?

* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \

[gendoikari]

* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \

Your point non existant.

[LegendZ]

Nothing if you're the most pathetic dude alive i guessExcellent analysis.


* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \:lol:^^

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_I2uQkGxIykM/TF-f1QyhgyI/AAAAAAAAMVA/PDyFqrq2r14/s1600/merit+fyrs.jpg

[Nox]

* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \

Your arrogance level is OVER 9000!!

[#FF0000]

Excellent analysis.

It's the pick up artist scene, dude.

People seriously aren't going to start defending that dumbness are they?


Your point non existant.

Her point was that the pick up artist thing makes assumptions about women, that they want dominant men or whatever it was. It might be true for some women, but to assume anything about all women is hella dumb.

But honestly that's not even the beginning of it. If you don't get tremendous douchechills just thinking of the PUA scene then there is just no hope for you


Your arrogance level is OVER 9000!!

Don't do that again thanks

[LegendZ]

It's the pick up artist scene, dude.

People seriously aren't going to start defending that dumbness are they?The dumbness of guys wanting to attract a girl they like before they die? The entire PUA scene isn't just SEX SEX SEX FUCKING GIRLS MANLYNESSSSSSSSSSS.

* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \

look familiar?


Her point was that the pick up artist thing makes assumptions about women, that they want dominant men or whatever. It might def. be true for some women, but to assume that about all women is hella dumb.Ever heard of Cosmopolitan? I wonder how many articles a year they do that say "How to control your man."


But honestly that's not even the beginning of it. If you don't get tremendous douchechills just thinking of the PUA scene then there is just no hope for youAhh yes. If you don't see X position as Y then you are Z.

[Game Girl]

About the porno thing;

If the adults present are consenting, then I don't see the problem. If the woman, in her own free will, decides to do such things, then that is her choice. She woulden't do it if she didn't want to. You might find it hard to believe, but some women "get off" on rough sex. It's personally not my thing, but who am I to infringe on another womans right to explore her sexual fantasies?

[Nox]

Don't do that again thanks

*points to my previous post*

[Azula]

About the porno thing;

If the adults present are consenting, then I don't see the problem. If the woman, in her own free will, decides to do such things, then that is her choice. She woulden't do it if she didn't want to. You might find it hard to believe, but some women "get off" on rough sex. It's personally not my thing, but who am I to infringe on another womans right to explore her sexual fantasies?

Others are viewing porn and might get ideas.

[#FF0000]

The dumbness of guys wanting to attract a girl they like before they die? The entire PUA scene isn't just SEX SEX SEX FUCKING GIRLS MANLYNESSSSSSSSSSS.

Well a friend of mine told me "we are broken people living in sad times" and so I am inclined to sympathy here. Then again the image of a bunch of dudes sitting in and watching a seminar on how to get women to fuck them by using backhanded compliments almost makes me glad I share a world with neutron bombs.



Ever heard of Cosmopolitan? I wonder how many articles a year they do that say "How to control your man."

Cosmopolitan is hella dumb too and more often I see things about "lol how 2 pleez ur man" than "how to control your man"
[/QUOTE]


* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \

look familiar?

Yeah it looks a lot like my joke.

[#FF0000]

Others are viewing porn and might get ideas.

So what? The only problem I can see from that is unrealistic expectations.

[Magón]

Others are viewing porn and might get ideas.

On how to try and do something new in bed?

[gendoikari]

Her point was that the pick up artist thing makes assumptions about women, that they want dominant men or whatever it was. It might be true for some women, but to assume anything about all women is hella dumb.

But honestly that's not even the beginning of it. If you don't get tremendous douchechills just thinking of the PUA scene then there is just no hope for you

well duh but you can ignore the pickup artists. and probably should.

[#FF0000]

well duh but you can ignore the pickup artists. and probably should.

I was doing a good job of it until today. Now I remember they exist and just want to build a cabin in the woods and never talk to anyone ever again

[LegendZ]

Then again the image of a bunch of dudes sitting in and watching a seminar on how to get women to fuck them by using backhanded compliments almost makes me glad I share a world with neutron bombs. Well thanks for proving your ignorance. I would assume you were in the seminar? You surely must have seen tons of things about backhanded compliments. I have never seen such things. But surely you have. So I'll just take your word for it.

[#FF0000]

Well thanks for proving your ignorance. I would assume you were in the seminar? You surely must have seen tons of things about backhanded compliments. I have never seen such things. But surely you have. So I'll just take your word for it.

It was something that was brought up last time people mentioned pick-up artists but whatever dude I don't need to read a book or take a class by someone like this

http://i.imgur.com/vGfvf.jpg

to at least kind of understand how to communicate with people.

[LegendZ]

Good for you. Unfortunately, not everyone has the same social skills as YOU. Just as some people don't have the same leadership qualities as others, some people don't have the same social skills that involve relationships as others. So they need to learn it. You don't want them walking around with a porn addiction and a hatred of women do you? One of the more notable times that happened the guy killed himself an a couple of other women. When they found his diary it showed he had an extreme hatred of women and probably lacked the necessary social skills to interact properly with them.

[#FF0000]

Good for you. Unfortunately, not everyone has the same social skills as YOU.

I can manage to greet people well enough and carry a hella basic conversation and keep myself from sputtering some dumb thing about Dwarf Fortress around people who don't give a shit. I guess that counts as social skills.


Just as some people don't have the same leadership qualities as others, some people don't have the same social skills that involve relationships as others. So they need to learn it. You don't want them walking around with a porn addiction and a hatred of women do you? One of the more notable times that happened the guy killed himself an a couple of other women. When they found his diary it showed he had an extreme hatred of women and probably lacked the necessary social skills to interact properly with them.

There are better places to get them than from the fucking PUA scene though holy shit.

[LegendZ]

I can manage to greet people well enough and carry a hella basic conversation and keep myself from sputtering some dumb thing about Dwarf Fortress around people who don't give a shit. I guess that counts as social skills.Good for you. Now go kick some rocks.




There are better places to get them than from the fucking PUA scene though holy shit.Cosmo?

[Os Cangaceiros]

It should at least be condemned as exploitative and supportive of reactionary institutions.

No I don't think so. BDSM is about the consentual exploration of power dynamics between adults for the purpose of titilation. The dominance and submission involved is purely fictional when compared to the dominance of, say, one economic class over another, or social discrimination. To compare the two is absurd.


Do you use to watch Youporn?

Nah, I got my statistics on that from this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2197868&postcount=11) post. (You might do well to read both of NHIA's posts in that thread)

Although I have watched porn, on more than one occassion. No use denying that!

[#FF0000]

Cosmo?

No.

[LegendZ]

No.That was sarcasm...

[Os Cangaceiros]

Cosmo?

It keeps telling me that you're fat. But I ain't down with that. :mellow:

[LegendZ]

It keeps telling me that you're fat. But I ain't down with that. :mellow:I'm surprised it hasn't tried to brainwash you into buying more copies. ;)

[Os Cangaceiros]

Cosmo = proof that capitalism is in decay

[gendoikari]

There are better places to get them than from the fucking PUA scene though holy shit.yeah like .... actual women.

[NGNM85]

It is not sexism, it is anti-sexism.

A man denigrating a woman on film = Sexism

A woman denigrating a man on film = Anti-sexism

Jesus Christ. You're like a caricature. Sane, principled Libertarians shouldn't walk away from nonsense like this; they should run.

[Dogs On Acid]

It was something that was brought up last time people mentioned pick-up artists but whatever dude I don't need to read a book or take a class by someone like this

http://i.imgur.com/vGfvf.jpg

to at least kind of understand how to communicate with people.

Wow, you seem to know quite a few things about PUA for somebody who claims to ignore it.

Backhanded compliments, PUA personalities....

Strange :rolleyes:

[gendoikari]

Wait seminars? and whats up with that stupid hat?

[gendoikari]

Her point was that the pick up artist thing makes assumptions about women, that they want dominant men or whatever it was. It might be true for some women, but to assume anything about all women is hella dumb.

But honestly that's not even the beginning of it. If you don't get tremendous douchechills just thinking of the PUA scene then there is just no hope for you


Look just because someones an idiot does not take away their right to free speech. You can make all the assumptions in the world, it doesn't mean your right, and it certainly doesn't mean people will listen to you. Hell if you want to keep these kinds of guys out of the gene pool let them keep doing what they do. No woman is going to take them seriously.

[NGNM85]

Just one more nutcase stalking the boards. She'll probably end up a Mod.

[Leftsolidarity]

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?
Umm....some girls like anal and some girls like getting facials. They are not forced into it and some people actually enjoy it.


I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.


Then don't watch it.



It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).


So do you support the arrest of drug dealers? I think that's a foolish stance to take. I'm one of those 'stoned children who won't excel in school' but what does that have to do with you? I'll get high or drink or whatever the fuck I want to do with my body. You don't own anyone else, you own yourself.

[Agent Equality]

Azula needs to gtfo of these forums is what I think. Her psycho authoritarian bullshit isn't even funny, its just sad.

The fact that people like her can be considered leftist is quite disheartening. The fact that people like her can even be considered mentally sane or emotionally stable is even more disheartening.

[Nox]

Azula needs to gtfo of these forums is what I think. Her psycho authoritarian bullshit isn't even funny, its just sad.

The fact that people like her can be considered leftist is quite disheartening. The fact that people like her can even be considered mentally sane or emotionally stable is even more disheartening.

Don't be hatin' on Authoritarianism :(

[Jimmie Higgins]

The dumbness of guys wanting to attract a girl they like before they die? The entire PUA scene isn't just SEX SEX SEX FUCKING GIRLS MANLYNESSSSSSSSSSS.

* <----- the point

.o <---- your dumb head
/|\
/ \



Man this site is bad on sexism sometimes. Really the pick-up artist and similar things in "men's magazines" treat dating like it's "The Dog Whisperer" and women are the dogs to be dominated by the alpha male in the room. If anyone here thinks that shit has any connection to "attracting a woman" I'm sorry but you will be a very lonely person. At best it might help you get laid in a club or something but you never make a real connection by lieing, playing mind-games, and all that.


Just as some people don't have the same leadership qualities as others, some people don't have the same social skills that involve relationships as others. So they need to learn it.True people need to learn it, but you can't learn chemistry from an alchemist. Shows like that and all the books and articles in the same vein are to relationships what jr. High School locker-room talk is to sexual intercourse.

[RGacky3]

Don't be hatin' on Authoritarianism http://www.revleft.com/vb/hate-crime-laws-t159903/revleft/smilies/sad.gif

The reason people hate on authoritarianism is the same people hate on capitalism and the capitalist class.


Really the pick-up artist and similar things in "men's magazines" treat dating like it's "The Dog Whisperer" and women are the dogs to be dominated by the alpha male in the room. If anyone here thinks that shit has any connection to "attracting a woman" I'm sorry but you will be a very lonely person. At best it might help you get laid in a club or something but you never make a real connection by lieing, playing mind-games, and all that.


I've never mett a guy that was into all that "pick up" shit, that ever had a healthy self-esteem or even managed to form meaninful relationships. I would'nt call it sexist perse, but I would call it sad.

[gendoikari]

Don't be hatin' on Authoritarianism :(

Meh, it has it's practical advantages, which is why i'd probably vote for a stalinist if it was a choice between him and the two current parties. but there are also some very negative sides of authoritarianism.

[gendoikari]

At best it might help you get laid in a club or something but you never make a real connection by lieing, playing mind-games, and all that.

the only women who are going to actually listen to that crap, are the ones that just want to get laid. The only men who are stupid enough to try and use that crap are those who are just wanting to get laid. So it begs the question, why not just be upfront and honest?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I've never mett a guy that was into all that "pick up" shit, that ever had a healthy self-esteem or even managed to form meaninful relationships. I would'nt call it sexist perse, but I would call it sad.Maybe not the people looking for advice, but the people selling this sort of stuff are really perpetuating sexism as "natural" (in fact a lot of these kinds of articles use animal metaphors - like alpha-male or being on the hunt etc) and play on men's insecurities.

I mean really what would a real relationship book be like: be open, be friendly, and ask someone out... why buy that book? Of course these gurus have some "secret formula" and techniques that are sure-fire ways to "meet anyone you want"... how else would they be able to sell these books without such promises of a secret formula. If it works, you hook up and that's it, maybe it was the formula or maybe in a club people are looking to meet other people... then again, if it doesn't work, well you must not be doing the formula right and you better get the updated edition! It's the same as all the "Beat the Casino" books. It's a scam on a very basic level. Like I said, it's alchemy: a secret that will help you control what you don't understand and is out of your control. The main problem here is the uncontrollable thing is not gold or blackjack games, but in this case other humans!

The sexist part is promoting ideas like women respond to emotional abuse or neglect. Just the very idea of getting "any women you want" suggests that women don't have desires or will of their own that matters more than some mechanical dating trick or formula - well it's just inherently sexist.

[Nox]

Meh, it has it's practical advantages, which is why i'd probably vote for a stalinist if it was a choice between him and the two current parties. but there are also some very negative sides of authoritarianism.

There's no such thing as being a 'Stalinist'...

The term 'Stalinist' was coined by Trotskyists and Ultra-Leftists to try and distance Stalin's regime from Socialism. In reality, 'Stalinism' is identical to Marxism-Leninism.

[Dumb]

Maybe not the people looking for advice, but the people selling this sort of stuff are really perpetuating sexism as "natural" (in fact a lot of these kinds of articles use animal metaphors - like alpha-male or being on the hunt etc) and play on men's insecurities...

The sexist part is promoting ideas like women respond to emotional abuse or neglect. Just the very idea of getting "any women you want" suggests that women don't have desires or will of their own that matters more than some mechanical dating trick or formula - well it's just inherently sexist.

I won't go into the misogynist aspect of the pick-up culture, only because that's been covered adequately in this thread already and I agree with every critique thereof.

That being said, it's also interesting how the pick-up culture manages to be so obviously sexist against both men and women all at the same time. Women with no desires or will of their own...men who need to quit being a bunch of nancy boy sissies...it's predicated on an idea that women already conform to whatever prescriptive notion of femininity the pickers-up subscribe to, and that men need to totally distort their individuality in order to conform to the corresponding prescription of masculinity.

I'll admit that five years ago, I flirted ever-so-briefly with the pick-up racket - about two weeks or so, and gave up when I realized I was an utter failure at the game. That, and I felt like I was being reduced to a label or a role, that nothing about me was even remotely acceptable. Learning to be a pick-up "artist" is much like military boot camp...you're taught to hate everything about yourself the way you were before.

It's woman as sex object, man as sex subject - walking breasts, walking penis.

[gendoikari]

there's no such thing as being a 'stalinist'...

The term 'stalinist' was coined by trotskyists and ultra-leftists to try and distance stalin's regime from socialism. In reality, 'stalinism' is identical to marxism-leninism.

.......................__ ............
......<rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl>.
........................| |...........
................... __\||/____......
.\\...............|'-|--| .\\....\.....
..\ \_...........|--|---|..\\ ....\....
../ l \____,/-------\___\___\
.|lol|-------------o----- ----,\..
..\ l /______,---''-----------, /...
../ /.............\_________ ,/....
.//.............____//___ __\\__/.

[khad]

So some of you are keen on defending the PUA culture. Know that this is not an acceptable position on revleft.

LegendZ, for his aggressive trolling, has been banned.

Gendoikari, for trying to shut down legitimate discussion (and trolling) has received his second troll warning and has been banned. "Speaking out about sexism only gives sexists attention, so don't do it"--bullshit. If only black people and all those uppity minorities took your advice.

[Kamos]

Just one more nutcase stalking the boards. She'll probably end up a Mod.

My exact thoughts as well. Pro-woman sexism and extreme witchhunting? Yep, those are pretty good qualifications.

[Leftsolidarity]

So some of you are keen on defending the PUA culture. Know that this is not an acceptable position on revleft.

LegendZ, for his aggressive trolling, has been banned.

Gendoikari, for trying to shut down legitimate discussion (and trolling) has received his second troll warning and has been banned. "Speaking out about sexism only gives sexists attention, so don't do it"--bullshit. If only black people and all those uppity minorities took your advice.

Is the OP getting warned or banned for sexism or anything?

[bietan jarrai]

Is the OP getting warned or banned for sexism or anything?
I'd support the attribution of a warning or the restriction of Azula, as she has proved to be a reactionary more than once.

[RGacky3]

but the people selling this sort of stuff are really perpetuating sexism as "natural" (in fact a lot of these kinds of articles use animal metaphors - like alpha-male or being on the hunt etc) and play on men's insecurities.


Yeah, I would'nt call that sexism, its just playing off men's insecurities, its the market, its what happens when you put sex in capitalism, its like all the stuff that they sell to women claiming it will make them more attractive to the opposite sex.


The sexist part is promoting ideas like women respond to emotional abuse or neglect. Just the very idea of getting "any women you want" suggests that women don't have desires or will of their own that matters more than some mechanical dating trick or formula - well it's just inherently sexist.

Unfortunately some women do, and the point is that the guys that buy those books don't care about what women's desires are, they want to get theirs, and I don't find anything sexist about that perse.

The point is the guys who buy this stuff are people who basically want to boost their self-esteem through their dicks, it has nothing to do with being with a woman or whatever, its simply feeling better about your sad self through your dick.

I think the concept of women or men as sex objects is not sexism in itself, considering people who go on one night stands are neccessarily objectifying the other sex for that purpose, I think it becomes sexism when you consider that to be the only thing women are good for in society, or that a woman as an object of sexual desire negates the womans own desires and wishes.

Pick up artists in my opinion are in a sad situation, because they lack natural human connections, anyone that see's it as a "game" or a "competition" obviously has a problem with inter-personal relationships.

[Agent Equality]

There's no such thing as being a 'Stalinist'...

The term 'Stalinist' was coined by Trotskyists and Ultra-Leftists to try and distance Stalin's regime from Socialism. In reality, 'Stalinism' is identical to Marxism-Leninism.

Does it really matter? If you say that Stalinism is identical to Marxism-Leninism then you merely condemn Marxism Leninism's reputation even further down the shit hole than it is already in. Either way, both are authoritarian so if you feel the need to combine them then all the more power to you :thumbup:

[Leftsolidarity]

Does it really matter? If you say that Stalinism is identical to Marxism-Leninism then you merely condemn Marxism Leninism's reputation even further down the shit hole than it is already in. Either way, both are authoritarian so if you feel the need to combine them then all the more power to you :thumbup:

They are not the same thing. That is just the stupidity of tendency wars. There are differences and if you still choose to not care for Marxism-Leninism so be it but it is not the same as Stalinism.

[Dogs On Acid]

They are not the same thing. That is just the stupidity of tendency wars. There are differences and if you still choose to not care for Marxism-Leninism so be it but it is not the same as Stalinism.

Of course Marxism-Leninism isn't the same as Stalinism, It's Stalinism that's the same as Marxism-Leninism.

Wait...

:laugh:

[Kamos]

Of course Marxism-Leninism isn't the same as Stalinism, It's Stalinism that's the same as Marxism-Leninism.

Wait...

:laugh:

M-L to Stalinism is like Anarchism to Liberalism.

[Dogs On Acid]

M-L to Stalinism is like Anarchism to Liberalism.

http://mariamuir.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bullshit.gif

Your talking to an ex-ML, not some new kid on da block homie.

[Leftsolidarity]

Your talking to an ex-ML, not some new kid on da block homie.

Good for you, you obviously had your own tendency. There are other MLs would disagree that ML and Stalinism are the same. Of course each tendency will claim that it is the rightful one though and that the others are not actually Marxism-Leninism.

[Dogs On Acid]

Good for you, you obviously had your own tendency. There are other MLs would disagree that ML and Stalinism are the same. Of course each tendency will claim that it is the rightful one though and that the others are not actually Marxism-Leninism.

It's called denial. Stalin worked well within the M-L paradigm whether you personally like it or not.

Discussion is over.

[Leftsolidarity]

It's called denial. Stalin worked well within the M-L paradigm whether you personally like it or not.

Discussion is over.

It's not denial seeing as though I wouldn't care anyways because I am not a Marxist-Leninist. It's just not how it is.

Discussion is over.

[#FF0000]

Stalinism is a political slur for Marxist-Leninists. They are not seperate things.

[Kamos]

Your talking to an ex-ML, not some new kid on da block homie.

Well, I didn't know that. To my credit, though, you seem to have forgotten quite a bit about ML, including the fact that a lot of us don't care for Stalin at all. You may impress a few anarchists but you don't impress me.

[RGacky3]

Stalinism is a political slur for Marxist-Leninists

Its more of an accurate term, there are many people who consider themselves marxists and leninists that do not support of defend stalin.

[Dogs On Acid]

It's not denial seeing as though I wouldn't care anyways because I am not a Marxist-Leninist. It's just not how it is.

Discussion is over.

Is that your argument? :lol:

[Leftsolidarity]

Is that your argument? :lol:

I thought the discussion was over.......

[Dogs On Acid]

I thought the discussion was over.......

So did I.

[bietan jarrai]

Of course Marxism-Leninism isn't the same as Stalinism, It's Stalinism that's the same as Marxism-Leninism.

Wait...

:laugh:

Stalinism is a term created by anti-leftists, to define what marxist-leninists are not. There is a distinction to be made: marxist-leninism and hoxhaism. Just like maoists are not the same as marxist leninists. Hoxhaists and maoists may be marxist-leninists but marxist-leninists aren't hoxhaists or maoists.

[RGacky3]

But the common thread in all of them is they are all becoming more and more irrelivant on the left.

[bietan jarrai]

But the common thread in all of them is they are all becoming more and more irrelivant on the left.

http://lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

[Kamos]

But the common thread in all of them is they are all becoming more and more irrelivant on the left.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Jazzratt]

Jesus christ knock off the fucking tendency dick-measuring semantics bullshit right now. Try to at least pretend to stay on topic.

[RGacky3]

Pics or it didn't happen.

You want pictures of marxism-leninism becoming irrelivant???

[Azula]

Hate crime laws are anti-fascist in their very nature (to go back to the subject) and the elimination of fascist sentiments should begin with their illegalisation.

[RGacky3]

Is'nt it the very nature of fascism to restrict freedom of speach? Or to have such state power that you can restrict freedom of speach?

hate-crime laws is one thing, but restricting freedom of speach is another.

[Azula]

Is'nt it the very nature of fascism to restrict freedom of speach? Or to have such state power that you can restrict freedom of speach?

hate-crime laws is one thing, but restricting freedom of speach is another.

When Freedom of Speech is limited by Fascists, it is wrong.

When it is limited by Communists, in order to silence reactionaries, it is right.

That is how I see it at least.

[RGacky3]

When Freedom of Speech is limited by Fascists, it is wrong.

When it is limited by Communists, in order to silence reactionaries, it is right.

That is how I see it at least.

Thats a very unprincipled way of looking at it.

If you have communists that have the same policies of fascists then whats the difference? Other than the name.

If oppression is done by communists or fascists the oppressed don't care the name of the oppressor, or what color their flag is.

[Azula]

Thats a very unprincipled way of looking at it.

If you have communists that have the same policies of fascists then whats the difference? Other than the name.

If oppression is done by communists or fascists the oppressed don't care the name of the oppressor, or what color their flag is.

The oppressed in this case would be Fascists, so their opinion doesn't matter.

The difference is that oppression by the Communists is done to protect the working masses from the Fascists, while oppression by the Fascists is done to protect the capitalist exploiters from the Communists.

[RGacky3]

The oppressed in this case would be Fascists, so their opinion doesn't matter.


Not neccessarily, nothing guarantees that the ruling class in your situatoin (who ever runs the state, or the party or whatever) does'nt extend their oppression to anyone that opposes them, or anyone whatsoever.


The difference is that oppression by the Communists is done to protect the working masses from the Fascists, while oppression by the Fascists is done to protect the capitalist exploiters from the Communists.

In Stalinist Russia, the oppression was to protect the ruling elite, the ruling party and Stalin from anyone and anything that would destroy or threaten their personal power, including oppressing huge sections of the working class themselves.

Nothing guarnatees that the power your want to put into the hands of a few does'nt become corrupted, infact history tells us that it neccessarily is always corrupted.

[Skooma Addict]

When Freedom of Speech is limited by Fascists, it is wrong.

When it is limited by Communists, in order to silence reactionaries, it is right.

That is how I see it at least.

You simply believe everyone must hold the same opinions as you. Opinions which you agree with can be allowed, but ones that upset you must be silenced.

[Azula]

In Stalinist Russia, the oppression was to protect the ruling elite, the ruling party and Stalin from anyone and anything that would destroy or threaten their personal power, including oppressing huge sections of the working class themselves.


Wrong.


Nothing guarnatees that the power your want to put into the hands of a few does'nt become corrupted, infact history tells us that it neccessarily is always corrupted.

I am of the opinion that the Party should hold itself to harsher standards and laws, and that weekly self-criticism sessions should be used to weed out potential revisionists which threaten the course of the revolution.

[Azula]

You simply believe everyone must hold the same opinions as you. Opinions which you agree with can be allowed, but ones that upset you must be silenced.

That is not true.

I can accept dissenting opinions when they are focusing on alternative ways to reach the same goal, as long as the ideas proposed are not undermining the purity of the revolution.

[RGacky3]

Wrong.


No right, historically that is what happened.


I am of the opinion that the Party should hold itself to harsher standards and laws, and that weekly self-criticism sessions should be used to weed out potential revisionists which threaten the course of the revolution.

Why would they? If they themselves are making those laws, and they are making those standards? Self-criticism? You mean they criticize themselves? You don't see how that is obviously a conflict of interest?

They are juts a new ruling class, and they will obviously and naturally organize things to benefit themselves first. It does'nt matter what they "should" do or not.

[Azula]

Why would they? If they themselves are making those laws, and they are making those standards? Self-criticism? You mean they criticize themselves? You don't see how that is obviously a conflict of interest?

Self-criticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism#Politics

I think it should be more prevalent. It seems to be an excellent tool.


They are juts a new ruling class, and they will obviously and naturally organize things to benefit themselves first. It does'nt matter what they "should" do or not

They are not a new ruling class since they don't control the means of production. If they are class, they would be a "serving class".

[RGacky3]

I think it should be more prevalent. It seems to be an excellent tool.


Yeah, but historically its been more of a propeganda tool, to assure the working class that the ruling class is taking care of it, and the working class does'nt need to worry about it.

Its like your boss saying "I hear you and I have a team looking into it so don't worry about it."


They are not a new ruling class since they don't control the means of production. If they are class, they would be a "serving class".

Actually they do, the Party elite in the USSR made economic policy the same way corporate boards did, who gets what, what gets made, how it gets made, where resrouces go and so on, they control the means of production and surplus value.

To be a "serving class" they would have to be directly democratically accountable to the people, which they were not historically.

[NGNM85]

When Freedom of Speech is limited by Fascists, it is wrong.
When it is limited by Communists, in order to silence reactionaries, it is right.
That is how I see it at least.

Then you need to update your perscription. Like I said earlier; there are only two positions on freedom of speech; for, and against. You’ve planted your flag on the wrong side.


They are not a new ruling class since they don't control the means of production. If they are class, they would be a "serving class".

This is just the kind of rhetorical nonsense typical of authoritarian Marxists. You want to establish a class of professional commisars and managers with power far and above the rest of society, oh, but they don’t constitute a new class. Just like you can have a centralized, bureaucratic structure, with a total monopoly on the use of force within it's borders, a cult of personality, fetishization of objects and institutions, etc., oh, but it isn’t a ‘state’, because it has a command economy.

[Dogs On Acid]

When Freedom of Speech is limited by Fascists, it is wrong.

When it is limited by Communists, in order to silence reactionaries, it is right.

That is how I see it at least.

Lovin' that double standard!

Not.

[#FF0000]

It sounds kinda like you got your politics from Red Alert or something, Azula.

[anarcho-communist4]

It sounds kinda like you got your politics from Red Alert or something, Azula.

Lol

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

So you think it is okay with pornography where females are brutally penetrated in the anus, and then forced to suck off the man (until he is ejaculating over her face)?
I'm a woman and I love anal sex. Also, I like rough angry sex. I find nothing wrong with this as long as all parties to that consent to it


I find that disgusting, and denigrating both for the female forced to partake in the film and for all females everywhere.

Speak for yourself and not the rest of us. I've been videotaped preforming sexual acts with a man twice my age. There is nothing wrong there. Too bad the footage was lost...


Authoritarianism is sensible in many cases.
:laugh: :laugh: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Look at it like this:
I'm looking...

It is authoritarian to force people who are carrying Tuberculosis to go to a doctor. They might not want it, but the risk for an epidemic outweighs the individual's integrity.
It would be better to give them incentive so they are likely to go willingly. Don't make people scared to do wrong but give them a positive reason to do something right. It's called positive reinforcement.

It is authoritarian to force children to go to school, but the alternative is a generation of illiterates.
Once again give incentive. Don't let schools be hell holes where anybody who is different gets fucked with and bullied, where LGBT youth are bullied to the point of taking their own life (I know that from personal experience and a couple failed suicide attempts on my part)

Anyhow you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).
I love getting stoned but anyway, the best way to deal with that is to legalize drugs.and also separate the different drug markets from each other and you get rid of the "gateway drug" issue.


It is authoritarian to put murderers in prison, but... well, isn't it obvious?
That's not authoritarian per se as much as is just common sense. And murder is a lot different than promoting ideas that you do not like.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Self-criticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism#Politics

I think it should be more prevalent. It seems to be an excellent tool.

Ooooo like confession! Maybe we could try some penance and reconciliation too! That does tend to go well with the [forcing our ideals and ways upon everyone] idea. Did you by chance get the idea from the catholic church?


They are not a new ruling class since they don't control the means of production. If they are class, they would be a "serving class".
"Serving class" that sounds like some really kinky role playing game.

[Azula]

I'm a woman and I love anal sex. Also, I like rough angry sex. I find nothing wrong with this as long as all parties to that consent to it

Wrong doesn't equal non-consent. If a person agrees to get eaten alive because he is turned on by it, is it right or is it the abuse of a mentally unstable person?

[RGacky3]

If a person agrees to get eaten alive because he is turned on by it, is it right or is it the abuse of a mentally unstable person?

Are you claiming that women that enjoy anal sex are mentally unstable? how about homosexual men that enjoy it? Is that also a mental problem?

[Azula]

Are you claiming that women that enjoy anal sex are mentally unstable? how about homosexual men that enjoy it? Is that also a mental problem?

If you enjoy being filmed doing it, you need some help. It is not the act in itself, but rather the context.

[RGacky3]

Porn starts may or may not enjoy being filmed doing it, but its a job, most people don't enjoy their jobs, the whole concept of wage slavery needs to be destroyed.

[Azula]

Porn starts may or may not enjoy being filmed doing it, but its a job, most people don't enjoy their jobs, the whole concept of wage slavery needs to be destroyed.

What worth is the destruction of capitalism if it doesn't mean the end of human degradation?

The future should not only be equal, it should be beautiful.

[RGacky3]

As was said over and over again, many girls like it, infact many people would call it beautiful.

Just becuase YOU don't like it, does'nt mean everyone should be forced to stop it, sorry you don't get to be queen in socialism, If you don't like anal sex don't do it, thats where the it stops as far as your concerned.

[Jazzratt]

Interestling reading Azula's views on things. It seems she thinks she'll be final arbiter of what is deemed appropriate in post-revolutionary society and, of course, what is good for the working class. Why is it, do you think, that when there is some whackjob insists that revolution will come about because of some glorious elite it's always them that are part of this elite? I'm immediatly suspicious because it never sounds like what they want is proletarian revolution but "workers doing the dirty work so they can set themselves up as a dictator."

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

If you enjoy being filmed doing it, you need some help. It is not the act in itself, but rather the context.
Well I don't think it is your place to judge me for what I do in my own life.



Wrong doesn't equal non-consent. If a person agrees to get eaten alive because he is turned on by it, is it right or is it the abuse of a mentally unstable person?
Well if someone was going to literally eat me, I'd rather be dead when it happens. Personally, if my loved ones were starving I'd offer myself to them to eat if there was no other way for them to eat if it was that kind of emergency.

A little off topic, I heard that there was one indigenous culture somewhere in south America that believed that by eating someone you could consume their talents, abilities and power.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What worth is the destruction of capitalism if it doesn't mean the end of human degradation?

The future should not only be equal, it should be beautiful.

Sex isn't beautiful?

[Thirsty Crow]

A little off topic, I heard that there was one indigenous culture somewhere in south America that believed that by eating someone you could consume their talents, abilities and power.
Azula would have been safe and sound.

[Rooster]

If you enjoy being filmed doing it, you need some help.

I'm pretty sure that some people enjoy being filmed.

[Magón]

If you enjoy being filmed doing it, you need some help. It is not the act in itself, but rather the context.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Thirsty Crow]

What the hell are you talking about?
Azula thinks that a couple's enjoyment coming from being filmed during sexual intercourse and subsequent "publishing" of the video is a sign of mental distress or a kind of a disturbance.

Typical reactionary sexual morality.
Why not hold our sex acts in common (figuratively speaking) when we hold our means of production in common? Of course, this applies only to those willing and consenting individuals, apart from any kind of coercion corellative to sexism.

[Leftsolidarity]

Can Azula atleast be restricted by the bullshit she spews?

[Per Levy]

@azula: after reading through this thread i want to make some comments:

you do know that a lot of people women and men alike enjoy all kinds of sex; anal, oral and so on and that is fine, or isnt it? also about bdsm, well there happen to be people who are masochistic and people who are sadistic, its not my kind of stuff(yet), but people do this and enjoy it, id say wonderful, good for them. its there choice and not yours.

i mean it, if you would share your opinion on this matter with the working class, i promise you no one would show up for your revolution and if some do they only would come to stop you. i dont get why you promote pretty much a reactionary sexual moral that is just a bit different then the one of the catholic church.

ps:
It is authoritarian to arrest drug dealers, but the alternative is stoned children (who won't excel in school).what is your problem marijuana? millions use it a lot of working class people, you dont have to like it but you also dont need to smoke it. legalizing marijuana(and actually every drug) should be the leftist way here.

[ComradeMan]

This new member sounds like another old member whose moniker began with P.

[Leftsolidarity]

This new member sounds like another old member whose moniker began with P.

She's already been banned