Do teachers want to share ideas?

[harum scarum]

I have looked around this site for a good place for teachers to share ideas and this section seems best. Sharing is a big part of teaching: book titles, classroom activities, curriculum, essay prompts. Sometimes, though, it is difficult to find local colleagues who share a leftist prespective. So I'd like to see if there are other teachers on RevLeft who'd like to discuss teaching ideas, especially techniques for getting students to think about and explore non-capitalist perspectives. I teach composition and lit at a community college and have had some very limited success with this.

[Ele'ill]

I like this idea.

I like this idea applied towards radical organizing as well. We hear a lot of theory, positions on current events but not a whole lot on strategy from those working with people one on one and with groups. What works and what does not?

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Short and sweet: have you read Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed?

[harum scarum]

Short and sweet: have you read Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed?
I have not read it. What is the book's thesis? And is it purely theoretical or does it have concrete suggestions?

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I have not read it. What is the book's thesis? And is it purely theoretical or does it have concrete suggestions?
Freire is so far ahead of those scholastic considerations that I couldn't even answer your questions. Read it; if you've lived what he's talking about it will be crystal clear; the man is by far the most influential revolutionary educator of the 20th c.

[RED DAVE]

Frankly, having dutifully read Freire, I find his ideas to be of very limited value in actually working as a teacher in a school in a city in the US. The critical frame is okay, but when you have to get up in the morning and teach five classes a day, with lesson plans, according a curriculum, understanding the dialectic between oppressor and oppressed is of little help.

RED DAVE

[black magick hustla]

Frankly, having dutifully read Freire, I find his ideas to be of very limited value in actually working as a teacher in a school in a city in the US. The critical frame is okay, but when you have to get up in the morning and teach five classes a day, with lesson plans, according a curriculum, understanding the dialectic between oppressor and oppressed is of little help.

RED DAVE

that is why a lot of teachers essentially fullfill the role of prison guards lite or foremen, and this comes from someone who's dad was a math teacher. i don't blame children for hating teachers and disrespecting their authority. i guess i don't blame teachers for being assholes either. i guess we areall fucked

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Frankly, having dutifully read Freire, I find his ideas to be of very limited value in actually working as a teacher in a school in a city in the US. The critical frame is okay, but when you have to get up in the morning and teach five classes a day, with lesson plans, according a curriculum, understanding the dialectic between oppressor and oppressed is of little help.

RED DAVE
Agreed, he's of little help in helping you keep your job - or mine. Tough noogies. Freire doesn't simply tell us what we should be doing hypothetically, he tells us what we're doing wrong, the 500 ways we collude in the reproduction of capitalist hegemony.

[RED DAVE]

Frankly, having dutifully read Freire, I find his ideas to be of very limited value in actually working as a teacher in a school in a city in the US. The critical frame is okay, but when you have to get up in the morning and teach five classes a day, with lesson plans, according a curriculum, understanding the dialectic between oppressor and oppressed is of little help.
that is why a lot of teachers essentially fullfill the role of prison guards lite or foremen, and this comes from someone who's dad was a math teacher. i don't blame children for hating teachers and disrespecting their authority. i guess i don't blame teachers for being assholes either. i guess we areall fuckedHowever, I blame you for taking a basically petit-bourgeois attitude towards teachers. Nothing is easier than to condemn the role of teacher in capitalist society. Everyone from supporters of Freire to Barack Obama, plus the Tea Party, do it. But is this a Marxist analysis?

Just for openers, such an analysis fails to understand (a) teachers as workers; (b) teachers as potential comrades; (c) teachers as educators; the critical analyses that teachers have developed and put forth themselves.


Agreed, he's of little help in helping you keep your job - or mine. Tough noogies.At which point the teacher, who struggles every day under miserable conditions to support a family, will say, "Fuck You!" An analysis of the education system that does not take into account the contradictions in the role of the teacher is radically incomplete.


Freire doesn't simply tell us what we should be doing hypothetically, he tells us what we're doing wrong, the 500 ways we collude in the reproduction of capitalist hegemony.And ... where do we go from there with this? To base an analysis on such a stance, without consider some (and there are more) points I've made, is, as I said, petit-bourgeois radicalism, not Marxism.

RED DAVE

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

At which point the teacher, who struggles every day under miserable conditions to support a family, will say, "Fuck You!" An analysis of the education system that does not take into account the contradictions in the role of the teacher is radically incomplete.
Like Charlie said, we have to educate the educator. It's not that Freire doesn't take these contradictions into account, it's that he demands you take responsibility for them. Not that it's easy, mind you


And ... where do we go from there with this? To base an analysis on such a stance, without consider some (and there are more) points I've made, is, as I said, petit-bourgeois radicalism, not Marxism.
RED DAVE
To the extent that your "Marxism" (your idea of Marxism anyhow) means moral and economic CYA, it's merely Proudhonian double-entry book-keeping: "Yeah, I know I'm just doing the work of the hegemony, but my purpose in being a 'Marxist' is merely to feel properly guilty for it and to pursue a "revolutionary" career on my time." Freire never said it was going to be easy; At least he gives you the tools to figure out what you're doing. Whether you have the guts or the smarts to use them is up to you.

The first rule of revolutionary teaching is, "Don't get fired or you won't be able to organize anything." The second rule is, "Revolution is not a weekend hobby or a second career."

[ellipsis]

Freire is so far ahead of those scholastic considerations that I couldn't even answer your questions. Read it; if you've lived what he's talking about it will be crystal clear; the man is by far the most influential revolutionary educator of the 20th c.

I haven't read it, but am aware of it's canonical status.

I had a good history teacher, who I wouldn't even have called him progressive, but he recommended and I bought Lies my Teacher Told me by James W Loewen It goes through all the major American history text books, finds and dispels the myths, unthruths, ommisions and straight up lies that the history texts tell. It is a perfect companion to Zinn's People's History of the United States, which has a graphic novel adaptation (http://therevolutionscript.blogspot.com/2009/08/peoples-history-of-american-empire.html), A people's history of American Empire.

For example, After Hellen Keller began to read and speak, she became a socialist organizer.

[black magick hustla]

However, I blame you for taking a basically petit-bourgeois attitude towards teachers. Nothing is easier than to condemn the role of teacher in capitalist society. Everyone from supporters of Freire to Barack Obama, plus the
Tea Party, do it. But is this a Marxist analysis?
first, i am not "condemning" teachers. second, i think you are abusing the term "petit-bourgeois". it is true teachers are workers, and their labor does build up value but it is also true they occupy a special role in capitalist, ideological reproduction and a special role in their authority and disciplinary actions towards children. you are being completely uncritical of your role. tough shit you have to deal with wild inner city youngins but put yourself in their shoes for a second. for the record, i am a "TA" so i have to deal with similar issues than yourself. what you are putting forward is not marxism, but some weird "working class" identity politic that is more similar to oi skinhead punk than marxism.




Just for openers, such an analysis fails to understand (a) teachers as workers; (b) teachers as potential comrades; (c) teachers as educators; the critical analyses that teachers have developed and put forth themselves.

this is just strawmanning

[RED DAVE]

Just as another starting point, let me point out that Freire was a social democrat. He presided over one of the largest education systems in the world under the auspices of a capitalist government.


In 1979, he was able to return to Brazil, and moved back in 1980. Freire joined the Workers' Party (PT) in the city of São Paulo, and acted as a supervisor for its adult literacy project from 1980 to 1986. When the PT prevailed in the municipal elections in 1988, Freire was appointed Secretary of Education for São Paulo.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_%28Brazil%29

RED DAVE

[syndicat]

Just for openers, such an analysis fails to understand (a) teachers as workers; (b) teachers as potential comrades; (c) teachers as educators; the critical analyses that teachers have developed and put forth themselves.
yes but: the disciplinary nature of the school system prepares working class children for working under bosses, being punctual, doing what they're told.

so the situation of the teacher is internally conflicted.

there is also a class division internal to the schooling system. for example, tracking systems based on standardized tests enable children of the middle class to be siphoned off into advanced classes. there is also a similar tracking system that has developed in community colleges, now that something like 65 percent of high school grads start college. and then there is the class differentiation between school systems in inner cities versus well to do suburbs. at Beverly Hills high school the "vocational training" section of the curriculum includes architecture and engineering type studies and allows students more realm for creativity and discretion...training them for positions in the elite classes.

this conflicted situation is not unique to teachers but also characterizes the position of other lower level professionals such as programmers...who work on software systems that may be designed to do things like monitor and track workers or otherwise be advantageous to management in terms of marshalling info. or social workers who are expected to control and track welfare applicants and cut out as many applicants as possible.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Just as another starting point, let me point out that Freire was a social democrat. He presided over one of the largest education systems in the world under the auspices of a capitalist government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_%28Brazil%29

RED DAVE How is this at all a starting point for anything?

[RED DAVE]

Just for openers, such an analysis fails to understand (a) teachers as workers; (b) teachers as potential comrades; (c) teachers as educators; the critical analyses that teachers have developed and put forth themselves.
yes but: the disciplinary nature of the school system prepares working class children for working under bosses, being punctual, doing what they're told.Marxists learn that in daycare. What else is new?


so the situation of the teacher is internally conflicted.Again, we know that. What we are looking for, or at least I'm looking for, is a strategy for organizing teachers.


there is also a class division internal to the schooling system. for example, tracking systems based on standardized tests enable children of the middle class to be siphoned off into advanced classes. there is also a similar tracking system that has developed in community colleges, now that something like 65 percent of high school grads start college. and then there is the class differentiation between school systems in inner cities versus well to do suburbs. at Beverly Hills high school the "vocational training" section of the curriculum includes architecture and engineering type studies and allows students more realm for creativity and discretion...training them for positions in the elite classes.C'mon, Comrade. Everyone knows this. Even teachers. Why are you reiterating the obvious, unless you think people around here don't know this?


this conflicted situation is not unique to teachers but also characterizes the position of other lower level professionals such as programmers...who work on software systems that may be designed to do things like monitor and track workers or otherwise be advantageous to management in terms of marshalling info. or social workers who are expected to control and track welfare applicants and cut out as many applicants as possible.Okay. But what have we learned here?

RED DAVE

[RED DAVE]

Just as another starting point, let me point out that Freire was a social democrat. He presided over one of the largest education systems in the world under the auspices of a capitalist government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers...y_%28Brazil%29 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_%28Brazil%29)

How is this at all a starting point for anything?Freire is an ideologist, among other things. And his idelogy has a class base. In order to get a handle on what class he is "representing," a good methodology (far from infallible but good) is to see who is paying for him and where he works. Freire was supported by and worked for a social democratic party: the party that now governs very capitalist Brazil. And he ran, not worked for as a teacher but ran, a capitalist education system. If we want to use Freire as some kind of a guide, we have to look at where he's coming from before we start to idealize him as many radical educational reformers do.

RED DAVE

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

In order to get a handle on what class he is "representing," a good methodology (far from infallible but good) is to see who is paying for him and where he works.
RED DAVE
And who do you work for, again? Remind me...

[RED DAVE]

In order to get a handle on what class he is "representing," a good methodology (far from infallible but good) is to see who is paying for him and where he works.
And who do you work for, again? Remind me...I am a classroom teacher, a union member, trying to organize a union in the school I work in.

Friere was the Secretary of Education, the head, of one of the largest capitalist school systems in the world.

Do you understand the difference?

RED DAVE

[syndicat]

Again, we know that. What we are looking for, or at least I'm looking for, is a strategy for organizing teachers.i'm not sure everyone knows that. how to organize depends on the context. depends on the particular situation of the teachers. things like, who are their students? what are they concerned about? who is their employer -- a private school, a well off suburban public school, a cash-strapped school that has cut everything to the bone? are they temps without job security or benefits? (my situation in my last teaching job teaching young adults.)

another feature of lower level professionals is that they are often concerned about the people who they are paid to work with, students in this case. if they teach children (primary or secondary), then there is also the potential for an alliance with the parents.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I am a classroom teacher, a union member, trying to organize a union in the school I work in.

Friere was the Secretary of Education, the head, of one of the largest capitalist school systems in the world.

Do you understand the difference?

RED DAVE

Sure do. Freire was trying to work with an excluded social/ethnic class by working through his own ideology and by teaching his readers to work through their own prejudices.

You - and you've made that very clear - have no interest whatsoever in understanding your student's point of view; you don't even believe they can be educated. As in the case of Freire, the fact that most of them are people of color is a contributing factor.

In fact, you're using your two-penny "Marxist" political correctness to hide from yourself your own drift into reaction - I've seen plenty of folks like that. It's no accident that in France, for instance, the voting block most likely to support Le Pen is composed of ex- or present CP members. And, as in America, they're almost all white. As we've seen from discussions about England recently, the same is likely to happen there.

Go play with your "comrades" in the UFT. You'll have plenty of company.

[RED DAVE]

I am a classroom teacher, a union member, trying to organize a union in the school I work in.

Friere was the Secretary of Education, the head, of one of the largest capitalist school systems in the world.

Do you understand the difference?
Sure do. Freire was trying to work with an excluded social/ethnic class by working through his own ideology and by teaching his readers to work through their own prejudices.And he made a alliance with the ruling class in the one of the largest school districts in the world. Is that how you work for liberation? I don't think so.


YouLittle old RED DAVE; that's me.


and you've made that very clearVery clear, huh. Let's see what you allege I've made clear.


have no interest whatsoever in understanding your student's point of view; you don't even believe they can be educated.Listen, jtm, I was working organizing teachers, students and parents, in some of the worst ghettos in the heart of the roaring beast probably while you were still having your diapers changed. You don't know my political history as an organizer or my work as a teacher. It takes a lot more than a chapter or two of Freire to be a red and a teacher.


As in the case of Freire, the fact that most of them are people of color is a contributing factor.Are you pulling the race card? Really? Do you also do stand-up?


In fact, you're using your two-penny "Marxist" political correctness to hide from yourself your own drift into reaction - I've seen plenty of folks like that.Big mouth; no brain. When you're ready to talk politics, let me know. Petit-bourgeois radical ideologues like Freire are often used to bludgeon teachers over the head by people who have no concept of the depth of contradictions inside a school system, sort of like yourself.


It's no accident that in France, for instance, the voting block most likely to support Le Pen is composed of ex- or present CP members. And, as in America, they're almost all white. As we've seen from discussions about England recently, the same is likely to happen there.Rave on.


Go play with your "comrades" in the UFT. You'll have plenty of company.Funny you should mention the UFT. I was forced from my teaching postion for being a left-wing teacher and for being one of the leaders of the opposition to Shanker in the UFT. I met plenty of big-mouth "reds" back then who could criticize all day but would never stand up for a student or a teacher.

RED DAVE