Kill God.

[Susurrus]

If it turns out that there is a god, that controls everything according to it's will, shouldn't we leftists try to kill or otherwise overthrow this irresponsible sociopathic tyrant?

[Sensible Socialist]

If it turns out that there is a god, that controls everything according to it's will, shouldn't we leftists try to kill or otherwise overthrow this irresponsible sociopathic tyrant?


Controls everything according to it's will
The above statement puts any plan of killing a god to rest.

[Susurrus]

The above statement puts any plan of killing a god to rest.

Yes, but a. it's an ethical question and b. we can always try...who knows? it might be one of those blind idiot gods.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

If there is a god like figure than yes, we should try and kill it.lol...but a more interesting question to ask if there is a god than shouldn't we be trying to win him over to our side?

I would add more but the amount of logical fallacies are clouding my judgment.

[o well this is ok I guess]

If everything is by his will, what can we hope to do that isn't simply an expression of his will?
From that point, there can be no opposing him, as any opposition is simply another expression of obedience to his will.

[Susurrus]

If there is a god like figure than yes, we should try and kill it.lol...but a more interesting question to ask if there is a god than shouldn't we be trying to win him over to our side?

That's like saying that we should try to make kings socialists rather than overthrow them.

[Susurrus]

If everything is by his will, what can we hope to do that isn't simply an expression of his will?
From that point, there can be no opposing him, as any opposition is simply another expression of obedience to his will.

Assisted suicide then.

[RED DAVE]

If it turns out that there is a god, that controls everything according to it's will, shouldn't we leftists try to kill or otherwise overthrow this irresponsible sociopathic tyrant?Chill out, Comrade. The Spanish anarchists already did it.


http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8d/SpanishLeftistsShootChrist.jpg/180px-SpanishLeftistsShootChrist.jpg

RED DAVE

[Luc]

Chill out, Comrade. The Spanish anarchists already did it.


http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8d/SpanishLeftistsShootChrist.jpg/180px-SpanishLeftistsShootChrist.jpg

RED DAVE

Nice pic. are there any others like them around?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Nietzsche thought we already did kill God. He appears to have died sometime in the mid 19th century, after a long illness. What this means of course is that "God" , as the organizing principle of society died by that time and we are living in a world in which God doesn't exist, although organized religion still continues its grip.

Micheal Harrington, the US social democrat, wrote "The Politics of God's Funeral", interesting book.

http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Gods-Funeral-Spiritual-Civilization/dp/0030621526

For some reason this book seems to have sunk into obscurity on Amazon although I thought it was quite interesting. No reviews and you can get the book merely for the cost of shipping and handling.The fact that Harringtron was a socdem means Marxists and New Atheists won't read him, and that he was an atheist means conservatives and fashionable liberals won't touch him

Of course, if one believes that God is a brutal sociopath (this idea isn't without some validity) then one takes the Gnostic position.Liberation, or killing God/Deicide if you will, consists in breaking God's power by realization of true Gnosis. Either the Matrix movies or Elaine Pagels could fill you in on the rest.

[Klaatu]

Let me state the obvious; how will you 'kill god' if it is HE that controls you? :confused:

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

For what reason should the creature attempt to 'kill' the creator, exactly?

[Euronymous]

If there is a god he should be like this:

www _ .fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal

(Had to put a _ in the link cuz I don't have link privleges yet.)

[Rafiq]

If such an individual welded such power, then yes.

However, 'God' seems to have traits very similar to that of humans. Perhaps it is because humans invented such an imaginary tyrant.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

That's like saying that we should try to make kings socialists rather than overthrow them.

It would still serve its purpose: with all the theists seeing their all mighty creator embracing the ideas of their sworn enemies it would essentially end all debate and user in socialism.

At any rate the concept of "god" and a "king" are pretty different and if I was going to violently overthrow one I would chose the one in which I would actually have a chance at destroying.

[Magón]

I don't think you can kill something that doesn't exist. But if for some weird phenomenon reasoning, God does exist, I think it would be kind of hard since God's supposed to be all knowing and whatever.

Fuck him either way.

[Queercommie Girl]

Let me state the obvious; how will you 'kill god' if it is HE that controls you? :confused:

What if "god" wishes to commit assisted suicide? "Killing god" would be a part of his overall plan. :cool::laugh:

[Zealot]

It has already been proved that a god cannot be all-powerful but if, in his limited power, he was in control of the universe, he should be taken to an international court and convicted of almost every crime under the sun. If he was the sort of god that a deist believes in then I wouldn't be all that hostile towards him, I would probably want to have an intellectual discussion with him.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

How about a non-deistic god, like maybe at a deep level we're "God". Maybe somehow "God" is actually us, or humanity a million years from now, designing the universe in a sort of bootstrap operation?

[¿Que?]

I didn't read all the comments, but did someone already quote Bakunin. Cuz if not, someone should.

[Dean]

Moved to religion for obvious reason. 08-17-11 Dean

[Decolonize The Left]

When Zarathustra was alone, however, he said to his heart: "Could it be possible! This old saint in the forest hath not yet heard of it, that God is dead!"


Once blasphemy against God was the greatest blasphemy; but God died, and therewith also those blasphemers. To blaspheme the earth is now the dreadfulest sin, and to rate the heart of the unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth!

In short, if there was such a thing as a god, 'he' was entirely dependent upon those who created him - namely, people. For before there was a god to explain natural phenomena, there were spirits, other gods, etc...

When humankind moved away from simply religious explanations and through the methods of science and logic attempted to figure out natural phenomena, we effectively 'killed' that which we had created.

We killed 'him' because 'he' is nothing more than an explanation, and explanations die when they are no longer useful.

- August

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

I didn't read all the comments, but did someone already quote Bakunin. Cuz if not, someone should.

I believe the entire thread is inspired by the Bakunin quote. Not to piss on the parade and call it rain but this seems more like an over-glorified chit-chat thread than a philosophical one. But, I'm content with being cool with the Chief, stories of the sons of Qarun come to mind, I'm not fucking with that, no sir.

[Rss]

Just what kind of gun would we need to kill him anyways? Some kind of dyson sphere-sized particle beam cannon or anti-matter bomb of monumental proportions? I mean, Captain Kirk indirectly killed god by bullshitting him for a while, giving a free shot for Spock.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Just what kind of gun would we need to kill him anyways? Some kind of dyson sphere-sized particle beam cannon or anti-matter bomb of monumental proportions? I mean, Captain Kirk indirectly killed god by bullshitting him for a while, giving a free shot for Spock.

I think to address the question in the OP we would first need to flesh out what/who is 'God' (or rather isn't) before you all can make war plans. Given apophatic theological definitions it would seem impossible and slightly absurd even if does make cool slogans.

[piet11111]

Wont we just need to touch ourselves ;)

[Klaatu]

What if "god" wishes to commit assisted suicide? "Killing god" would be a part of his overall plan. :cool::laugh:

I didn't think of that.

I wonder on how he would do it (by nuking the entire Earth, perhaps, or making the sun blow up or something) :confused:

Although I did hear a claim made back in the 1960s that "God is Dead"

[Luc]

I didn't think of that.

I wonder on how he would do it (by nuking the entire Earth, perhaps, or making the sun blow up or something) :confused:

He would probably just read some Nietzsche:thumbup1:

[Apoi_Viitor]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nasa-completes-52year-mission-to-find-kill-god,19263/

[Misanthrope]

God doesn't exist so we don't have to worry about it. The whole idea of "God" is completely contradictory.

OP: Reading Bakunin I see!

[Nox]

How do you kill that which doesn't exist?

[Susurrus]

As I said in the first post, this is based on an alternate reality where god exists.

Also, this is more of an ethical question rather than a tactical one, though since you asked how:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9526/kratosh.jpg

[Nox]

In that case, we deprive him of his food source (the souls of tens of thousands of people he kills every day)

[Rss]

In the Warhammer 40k God-Emperor of All Mankind and Guiding Light of Man wanted to kill off chaos gods by starving them by making all people atheists.

[Luc]

In the Warhammer 40k God-Emperor of All Mankind and Guiding Light of Man wanted to kill off chaos gods by starving them by making all people atheists.

Fuck yeah love WH 40k! That could work but only if god (like the chaos gods) is a manifestation of emotion or w/e

[Klaatu]

Notice in the picture that God is wearing a wife-beater T-shirt... (where IS his wife, anyway?)

[Iron Felix]

The West mortally wounded that shameless oppressor when the Church was stripped of most of it's power, it is time we kill him for good. Much progress will be made when that is accomplished.

[NGNM85]

Excellent idea! Where do I sign up?

[Triple A]

If it turns out that there is a god, that controls everything according to it's will, shouldn't we leftists try to kill or otherwise overthrow this irresponsible sociopathic tyrant?


He would be hard to hit since he is invisible but easy to it since he is everywhere, it would be hard to find an invisible gun to kill and invisible god tough.

[Susurrus]

I love how this is pretty much the one thing on revleft everybody is agreeing on.

[pastradamus]

Well to answer the original post I'll open with Marx.

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
Karl Marx

What Marx is saying here is that Religion exists because Capitalism exists. Capitalism is what must be destroyed in order to destroy the control religion has over people. Marx, still felt however that Religion cannot be destroyed.
Capitalism is the main enemy of the Socialist and so that must be his / her main focal point and not relgion. Lenin on the otherhand directly attacked it and hated religion whereas Marx tolerated religious beliefs.

[Susurrus]

Well to answer the original post I'll open with Marx.

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
Karl Marx

What Marx is saying here is that Religion exists because Capitalism exists. Capitalism is what must be destroyed in order to destroy the control religion has over people. Marx, still felt however that Religion cannot be destroyed.
Capitalism is the main enemy of the Socialist and so that must be his / her main focal point and not relgion. Lenin on the otherhand directly attacked it and hated religion whereas Marx tolerated religious beliefs.

And again, this is based on an IF. IF a god exists should we overthrow it?

[tradeunionsupporter]

I agree God is bad.

[NGNM85]

Well to answer the original post I'll open with Marx.
Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
Karl Marx
What Marx is saying here is that Religion exists because Capitalism exists. Capitalism is what must be destroyed in order to destroy the control religion has over people. Marx, still felt however that Religion cannot be destroyed.
Capitalism is the main enemy of the Socialist and so that must be his / her main focal point and not relgion. Lenin on the otherhand directly attacked it and hated religion whereas Marx tolerated religious beliefs.

This couldn't be more wrong. Religious fanaticism totally transcends class barriers.

[RadioRaheem84]

This couldn't be more wrong. Religious fanaticism totally transcends class barriers.

Religion is a tool. It's not an ideal that transcends class boundaries.

Just because there are rich people who are religious fanatics, it doesn't mean that religion is tied in with class.

[NGNM85]

Religion is a tool. It's not an ideal that transcends class boundaries.

Just because there are rich people who are religious fanatics, it doesn't mean that religion is tied in with class.

You seem to be arguing with yourself. Religion is a belief system, as well as a failed science, etc. You are quite correct, however, that it exists irrespective of class, which is exactly the point I was making. It's refreshing to almost be in agreement, for once.

[00000000000]

Right, I'll get working on some deity-slaying weaponry...a few Surface to Heaven Missiles should work...
Better be ready for the inevitable power vaccum and have a couple of exorcists handy in case ol' Lucifer decides to make a play

[NGNM85]

Right, I'll get working on some deity-slaying weaponry...a few Surface to Heaven Missiles should work...
Better be ready for the inevitable power vaccum and have a couple of exorcists handy in case ol' Lucifer decides to make a play

No worries. The OP seems to have it covered, he even included a helpful diagram. As I understand the plan; all we need to do is locate Kratos, then unleash him, and he kills god. :D

[pastradamus]

This couldn't be more wrong. Religious fanaticism totally transcends class barriers.

99.9% of religious people are not fanatics. They are usually working-class people who live in hope that by praying and going to a place of worship might change their circumstances. I remember when I was young (I was raised a catholic) the church was packed full with working class people. I cant remember seeing a person I would describe as wealthy in any church. Then I noticed that when a so-called "economic boom" hit Ireland and the living standard of working class people increased a little and suddenly church attendances dropped sharply.

Marx was right, Religion is a place where people turn to if they have nowhere else to go. Im not religious and nor do I believe in god anymore but I understand the reason people go to church on a sunday.

[pastradamus]

And again, this is based on an IF. IF a god exists should we overthrow it?

That question makes no sense. Taking it as if a God does really exist who would you overthrow it? God is not defined in any of the major religions as being a physical person that you can overthrow - thats kind of the point.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Marx was right, Religion is a place where people turn to if they have nowhere else to go. Im not religious and nor do I believe in god anymore but I understand the reason people go to church on a sunday.

This is true to some extent but I don't think I'm religious solely because I'm a poor fuck.

[DarkPast]

What Marx is saying here is that Religion exists because Capitalism exists. Capitalism is what must be destroyed in order to destroy the control religion has over people. Marx, still felt however that Religion cannot be destroyed.
Capitalism is the main enemy of the Socialist and so that must be his / her main focal point and not relgion. Lenin on the otherhand directly attacked it and hated religion whereas Marx tolerated religious beliefs.

That is incorrect. Lenin actually agrees with Marx that capitalism must be destroyed before there is any chance of freeing people from the shackles of religious control:

No educational book can eradicate religion from the minds of masses who are crushed by capitalist hard labour, and who are at the mercy or the blind destructive forces of capitalism, until those masses themselves learn to fight this root of religion, fight the rule of capital in all its forms, in a united, organised, planned and conscious way.

Also:

(...) the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society.

[pastradamus]

This is true to some extent but I don't think I'm religious solely because I'm a poor fuck.

I apologise if it came off as if I was implying that people who are religious are simply this way because they are "poor" etc - and to put the OP I made into context - Religion, exists as a modus operandi based on controling people. What I was gettin at in the post menitioned was that religion is like an escape for the people who are in a hopeless situation (as Marx said) ie I know people who prayed for their friends when it seemed that these people were going to die. Even though these guys weren't Church-goers.

Yes, there are Rich people who beileve in God. But it nevertheless seems that the chuch commmands more support from the working class than anywhere else and so that is their base of support.

[Susurrus]

That question makes no sense. Taking it as if a God does really exist who would you overthrow it? God is not defined in any of the major religions as being a physical person that you can overthrow - thats kind of the point.

Ethical question, hence the "should" rather than a "how will."

[pastradamus]

That is incorrect. Lenin actually agrees with Marx that capitalism must be destroyed before there is any chance of freeing people from the shackles of religious control:

No educational book can eradicate religion from the minds of masses who are crushed by capitalist hard labour, and who are at the mercy or the blind destructive forces of capitalism, until those masses themselves learn to fight this root of religion, fight the rule of capital in all its forms, in a united, organised, planned and conscious way.

Also:

(...) the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society.

Excellent quotes. But it must be also observed that Lenin has said quotes such as "Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man" signifies to me anyway that he was much harsher on Religion than Marx - Giving alone that he committed more time to it.

[pastradamus]

Ethical question, hence the "should" rather than a "how will."

Im sorry I dont understand this question.

[Susurrus]

Im sorry I dont understand this question.

It mean ethically, would it be right to oppose this god due to it's tyrannical nature and all the crimes, horrors, and injustices it has done unto this world? Or should we submit and worship it?

[Susurrus]

Excellent quotes. But it must be also observed that Lenin has said quotes such as "Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man" signifies to me anyway that he was much harsher on Religion than Marx - Giving alone that he committed more time to it.

Perhaps, but did not advocate any action against it's adherants:
"Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated."
Collected Works, Vol. 10, pp. 83-87

[humdog]

What Marx is saying here is that Religion exists because Capitalism exists. Capitalism is what must be destroyed in order to destroy the control religion has over people. Marx, still felt however that Religion cannot be destroyed.
Capitalism is the main enemy of the Socialist and so that must be his / her main focal point and not relgion. Lenin on the otherhand directly attacked it and hated religion whereas Marx tolerated religious beliefs.

For Marx, the struggle against religion is the implicit struggle against the world order it represents; or, as Marx puts it, "the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion." On the rejection of the existence of a God, however, Marx felt that such a criticism had been completed by thinkers such as Feuerbach who essentially argued that 'God' was the product of human idealization or projection, not the other way around ('humans as the creation of God').

[ComradeMan]

Right.....

So we have three possibilities here, as I see it at least.

1) Atheists who de facto do not believe in any god are arguing about whether to kill/destroy something that does not exist- well 0-0 = 0

2) People who do believe in some kind of god and therefore, we presume through their belief, "know" that they cannot kill or destroy god.

3) Agnostics who basically wouldn't care either way.

Great thread.
:crying:

[Che a chara]

God done give the hairy side of the hand

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/gods_hand_cloud.jpg