Where are the leaders of the ruling class?

[Fulanito de Tal]

For example, the White House? the Fed Reserve? Pentagon? Wall Street? Pentagon? Westminster Palace? My pants? (jk...a little)

Also, does it seem like the 9/11 attacks were attempt at getting them? WTC, Pentagon, White House.

[RadioRaheem84]

:confused:

[jake williams]

Class leadership is diffuse and complex. It certainly tends to concentrate within the executives of bourgeois states (so, not Westminster Palace so much as the White House), but not always, and even to the extent that class power is exercised through the state it isn't done without contradiction. The political leadership of the ruling class is exercised in the media, in the elite universities, in the political parties, and so on. Leadership is individual and institutional. There are contradictions between different factions of the bourgeoisie, and sometimes between the bourgeoisie and its state. There's also the fact that the economy really does matter and businesspeople exercise control of society as much through their businesses as through their state.

Given the analytical difficulty of identifying how the ruling class actually rules, analyzing where it happens is even more difficult. The geography of class rule is deliberately obfuscated - the bourgeoisie cycles through a complex network of their many homes and airports and offices and so on, national and international organizations, financial and state districts around the world. They live and work in all sorts of different places.

It's an interesting question, but why do you ask?

[gendoikari]

There is not single body of rulers, it is a mechanism in capitalism itself. There is no one behind the scenes crafting the divine plan to fuck over the working class. In fact those responsible for the worst atrocities of capitalism can be the nicest of people. It is the wealth that are the driving force behind the mechanism and the way democracy currently works and the interaction between the two that have created a system unique to capitalism.

It is a system of corruption that exists above the individuals that participate in it, and those that do often have little power to change it. Until capitalism is repealed this mechanism will not stop, it will grow and consume everything we do, touch and even say.

[RadioRaheem84]

In the book The Grapes of Wrath there is this scene where the armed farmer is about to shoot the representative of the bank coming to take his farm away. The rep tells him he is just a messenger and that if wants to shoot someone he should go to the corporate office, but that won't do him any good because they just take orders from headquarters.

By the end of it, the farmer realizes that it's useless to shoot a worker over his situation because it wasn't him, heck it wasn't even people really, it was a system. And it has to be changed.

[Fulanito de Tal]

There is no one behind the scenes crafting the divine plan to fuck over the working class.

SURvey saysssssss...

http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/Common/download.aspx?filename=ThumA_081309_harmon_leon_fa mily_feud_05.jpg&loc=Forum/2011/6/2/



It's an interesting question, but why do you ask?

I want to know in which direction to point my middle finger.

[CHE with an AK]

Where are the leaders of the ruling class?
Behind the tall walls of their palacial estates, aboard their private yachts at sea, flying on their private corporate jets, on private island paradises, high up in skyline New York City penthouses, shopping at fashion boutiques for the rich in Paris, buying hideaway palaces in Dubai, lounging in their pools in Hollywood hills, enjoying the quantness of their cottage castles in rural Ireland, drinking 10,000 $ dollar vodka in their multi-million dollar downtown Moscow flats, cutting red ribbons at "charity" ventures they get tax breaks on, walking the beaches of the Hamptons, the French Riveria, and Monaco, building billion dollar homes overlooking the slums of Dubai, and "working hard" on their tans and plastic surgery while being waited on hand and foot by their minions of servants and sex slaves.

[CHE with an AK]

I want to know in which direction to point my middle finger.
Instead of your finger, point a gun.


http://dc-cdn.virtacore.com/2011/04/03-rich-and-poor-ap1.jpg

[thesadmafioso]

Instead of your finger, point a gun.


http://dc-cdn.virtacore.com/2011/04/03-rich-and-poor-ap1.jpg

Such wonderful passion, reminds me of the grand days of the late 19th century of nihilistic anarchists throwing bombs into bourgeois cafes and marching into opera houses with revolves under their coats.

Shame that revolutionary romanticism doesn't really translate into dialectical progress. This sort of thought makes for a lovely sentiment, but it is one which doesn't have much of a positive effect on the struggles of the proletariat.

[CHE with an AK]

revolutionary romanticism doesn't really translate into dialectical progress.
and debate does?

3 billion people live on less than 2 $ a day, millions starve to death every year, and 1/3 of the World can't even write or read their own name. The world's 3 richest men have more wealth than all of Sub-Saharan Africa!

An abundance of "revolutionary zeal" is hardly our biggest concern right now. Hell, half the battle is getting the youth to just put down their cell phones or game controllers long enough to even give a fuck.




This sort of thought makes for a lovely sentiment, but it is one which doesn't have much of a positive effect on the struggles of the proletariat.
Who said that reappropriating from the uber-rich (I didn't say shoot her) is about proletariat installation? It's about temporary survival, redistribution to workers, and letting them know that all of us will not just be sitting back while they rob and rape our planet with impunity.

[Fulanito de Tal]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Also, does it seem like the 9/11 attacks were attempt at getting them? WTC, Pentagon, White House.

[CHE with an AK]

Also, does it seem like the 9/11 attacks were attempt at getting them? WTC, Pentagon, White House.
The rulers of capital were not inside the WTC, Pentagon, or the White House. Although Al Qaeda could argue that they were legitimate military targets under the usual rationale nations employ.

These were/are mostly the middle level managers who merely operate the skeletal structure.

If you want to find the "head of the snake", don't look anywhere where people are actually doing any sort of "work" for a pay check. The idle-'lords' don't usually bother with such 'peasantry'.

[gendoikari]

SURvey saysssssss...

http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/Common/download.aspx?filename=ThumA_081309_harmon_leon_fa mily_feud_05.jpg&loc=Forum/2011/6/2/



I want to know in which direction to point my middle finger.

it really isn't the single will of any group it is an inherent flaw in capitalism. Otherwise we could just replace all CEO's everywhere with "nice" guys and fairy dust and capitalism would work. But it doesn't. Granted there are big assholes in congress, know what put them there? donations, donations by who? large corporations, know why? Because the candidates had plans that were economically beneficial for them, Why did the candidates have plans like that? Because without said donations they cannot get elected. This is the flaw in capitalism under democracy. And democratic capitalism is the best form of capitalism and even it gets fucked up.


So point your middle finger at wall st. the basic operating mechanisms that the operate under fuck over the working class but it isn't a singular will but rather a collective subconscious made of the wills of a million men, of a species known as Homo sapien arseholencis .

[thesadmafioso]

and debate does?

3 billion people live on less than 2 $ a day, millions starve to death every year, and 1/3 of the World can't even write or read their own name. The world's 3 richest men have more wealth than all of Sub-Saharan Africa!

An abundance of "revolutionary zeal" is hardly our biggest concern right now. Hell, half the battle is getting the youth to just put down their cell phones or game controllers long enough to even give a fuck.




Who said that reappropriating from the uber-rich (I didn't say shoot her) is about proletariat installation? It's about temporary survival, redistribution to workers, and letting them know that all of us will not just be sitting back while they rob and rape our planet with impunity.

You can spare me the lecture on the failings of capitalism, I'm fully aware of such and I've given it to many others myself. We are in consensus on this matter, as I'm sure most every non restricted member of revleft is.

You spoke of aiming a gun at her, it was rather overtly implied that you would support violence in that situation or at the very least that you would have no qualms over its use. I've nothing against the concept of expropriation and I support its implementation entirely, but such rhetoric is not an acceptable way defend and argue for this act. You are straying vaguely into focalism with comments like that, and such tactics are not productive to the efforts of the proletariat.

Also, can we please not have this deteriorate into another thread defending Al Qaeda? Opposition to imperialism does NOT mean that we should blindly support any force which opposes it with indiscriminate disregard for their actual ideology and methodology.

[Sensible Socialist]

Also, does it seem like the 9/11 attacks were attempt at getting them? WTC, Pentagon, White House.
That's assuming it was Al-Queda who planned and committed the attacks. You could hardly call a government orchestrated attack an attempt to get back at the ruling class.

[thesadmafioso]

That's assuming it was Al-Queda who planned and committed the attacks. You could hardly call a government orchestrated attack an attempt to get back at the ruling class.

Please tell me you are trolling. Do we really need to turn this topic into one debunking a slew of baseless conspiracy theories? The left does not need to mire itself in such nonsense, it only drains us of credibility and serves to waste our time and efforts.

[Reznov]

The rulers of capital were not inside the WTC, Pentagon, or the White House. Although Al Qaeda could argue that they were legitimate military targets under the usual rationale nations employ.

These were/are mostly the middle level managers who merely operate the skeletal structure.

If you want to find the "head of the snake", don't look anywhere where people are actually doing any sort of "work" for a pay check. The idle-'lords' don't usually bother with such 'peasantry'.

Can you please explain in detail who exactly are these idle-"lords"?

[Sensible Socialist]

Please tell me you are trolling. Do we really need to turn this topic into one debunking a slew of baseless conspiracy theories? The left does not need to mire itself in such nonsense, it only drains us of credibility and serves to waste our time and efforts.
No trolling at all. There's no need for this topic to become a 9/11 debate, but dismissing it out of hand because you don't want to be associated with a few loons is ridiculous.

[CHE with an AK]

Can you please explain in detail who exactly are these idle-"lords"?
Most of them do a good job of making sure that nobody ever knows who they are, lest the mob get angry ...

But you could start by looking at the World's royal families, the World's current billionairres and their immediate families, the expanded off-spring of the last centuries billionairres and robber barons, the expanded lineage of the last few centuries multi-millionairres and oligarchs, then start looking at the hundred-millionairres etc


Then when you get to the point where they no longer live in a castle or own things like this ...


http://www.hoayachting.com/luxury-yacht-charter/images/luxury-yacht-charter-motor-yacht.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IUYlNU10BMY/Sks7Ts11TjI/AAAAAAAAVtY/rwTwvHNJyTc/s400/super-luxury-mansion02.jpg


you might have them all.

[gendoikari]

No trolling at all. There's no need for this topic to become a 9/11 debate, but dismissing it out of hand because you don't want to be associated with a few loons is ridiculous.

PM'ed

[thesadmafioso]

No trolling at all. There's no need for this topic to become a 9/11 debate, but dismissing it out of hand because you don't want to be associated with a few loons is ridiculous.

There is more to it than that aspect, that was just the realpolitik in me talking. But seriously, there is really no foundation upon which to make such controversial remarks. It only serves to tarnish your credibility on most any other matter if you show that you are open to believing in such fallacy riddled views. I'm not dismissing these hypotheses because of the political ramifications of adopting them, I am merely focusing on them because the initial idea is so useless that it becomes a matter dominated by such questions of political collateral damage by associate.