Abortion

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

So, we all recognise that recognising a woman's right to abortion is an absolutely pivotal pillar of Socialism, as non-recognition of this important right leads to the notion of sexism and gender inequality, in addition to acceptance of the 'traditional' role of the woman in the nuclear family, a hallmark of Capitalism (the traditional role, not the nuclear family).

So, with that being so, how do people square calling the USSR under Stalin Socialist, given that abortion was illegal, given that i'm fairly sure many people who do support the USSR here have supported the banning of anti-abortion posters on here before?

[ColonelCossack]

umm... errrr... :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

I think it might be to do with something that it was linked with religion that Stalin reintroduced in WW2 to increase morale, so abortion wouldn't have had enough support...
or maybe in the 40's the technology was a bit dodgy so it might have been dangerous? I dunno... :confused:

[Nox]

This is just a guess, but I think it may have been a conditional decision made to help provide the huge workforce needed to keep up with the rapid economic growth and industrialisation.

[Thirsty Crow]

umm... errrr... :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

I think it might be to do with something that it was linked with religion that Stalin reintroduced in WW2 to increase morale, so abortion wouldn't have had enough support...
or maybe in the 40's the technology was a bit dodgy so it might have been dangerous? I dunno... :confused:
The ban on abortion was introduced prior to WW2.

[Kamos]

It was an imperfect form of socialism, simple as that. Back in that day many progressives opposed or ignored the question of abortion.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

So when did abortion become a make or break decision in terms of Socialism, and why did it become so?

A progressive is different to a Socialist.

[F9]

This is just a guess, but I think it may have been a conditional decision made to help provide the huge workforce needed to keep up with the rapid economic growth and industrialisation.

The real question is, do you(in you put any "supporter" of USSR) support such a reasoning or any reasoning may existed?
Be careful though to distinguish history from ideology cause while they do meet at a certain point and continue along, its not the same always.So this is just a situation merely depending on how ussr supporters see that ban, not an ideology matter.
If you had the same situation in hand, if you were at that time in the past, would you justify such an action?Would you see a reasoning to justify that ban?Cause i saw that reasoning coming up a few times.

Fuserg9:star:

[Thirsty Crow]

This is just a guess, but I think it may have been a conditional decision made to help provide the huge workforce needed to keep up with the rapid economic growth and industrialisation.
Thus a part of the population was dominated by the demands of rapid economic growth.
And how exactly does this differ from capitalist accumulation (i.e. rapid economic growth)?

[Nox]

The real question is, do you(in you put any "supporter" of USSR) support such a reasoning or any reasoning may existed?
Be careful though to distinguish history from ideology cause while they do meet at a certain point and continue along, its not the same always.So this is just a situation merely depending on how ussr supporters see that ban, not an ideology matter.
If you had the same situation in hand, if you were at that time in the past, would you justify such an action?Would you see a reasoning to justify that ban?Cause i saw that reasoning coming up a few times.

Fuserg9:star:

I think that for the tiny difference that it would have made, it wasn't worth it.

[Nox]

Thus a part of the population was dominated by the demands of rapid economic growth.
And how exactly does this differ from capitalist accumulation (i.e. rapid economic growth)?

You're making the incorrect assumption that I support that decision/reasoning.

[Salabra]

So when did abortion become a make or break decision in terms of Socialism, and why did it become so?

A progressive is different to a Socialist.

Free, safe, abortion on demand at every stage of pregnancy is, for me, a sine qua non (“make or break,” in your terms) of a socialist programme, part of a comprehensive regime of gynaecological health, including reliable contraceptive advice, ante-, peri- and post-natal care, childcare centres and the socialization of domestic work.

Such a regime is necessary to allow women the opportunity for full participation in the social, economic and political life of their societies.

IIRC, such questions had arisen in the works of early C20 feminists and socialists, but it was the Bolshevik government of 1920 that first struck down penalties on abortion.
Hardly an ‘in-depth’ reply, but sufficient to start the ball rolling!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

So, that would all be fair enough, but in the 18 years that abortion was illegal, were there any great strides made to ensure that abortion could be performed, as you say, freely and safely, on a mass scale? That would surely be the first consideration of any Socialist, right?

[gendoikari]

So, we all recognise that recognising a woman's right to abortion is an absolutely pivotal pillar of Socialism, as non-recognition of this important right leads to the notion of sexism and gender inequality, in addition to acceptance of the 'traditional' role of the woman in the nuclear family, a hallmark of Capitalism (the traditional role, not the nuclear family).

So, with that being so, how do people square calling the USSR under Stalin Socialist, given that abortion was illegal, given that i'm fairly sure many people who do support the USSR here have supported the banning of anti-abortion posters on here before?

I wasn't aware of abortion as a pillar of socialism. If I recall correctly I remeber the pillars being something about the means of production....

all joking aside I support abortion for a much more pragmatic reason. Logistics. we simply don't need unwanted children. In fact we need to be cutting back on the birthrate as is.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Hang around here long enough and you'll see how much of a fuss gets kicked up when someone bares their anti-abortion credentials.

No, you're right that Socialism as a school of political philosophy is mainly based on an economic conception of development, but as a wide school it obviously has social tenets as well (a few!), and abortion is certainly one of the base ones. As I said, it has wide ranging repurcussions on the issue of gender equality.

[Desperado]

So, we all recognise that recognising a woman's right to abortion is an absolutely pivotal pillar of Socialism, as non-recognition of this important right leads to the notion of sexism and gender inequality, in addition to acceptance of the 'traditional' role of the woman in the nuclear family, a hallmark of Capitalism (the traditional role, not the nuclear family).


Not at all. It's entirely possible to see abortion as immoral and want the workers to control the means of production, just as it is entirely possible to see abortion as immoral and want gender equality.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

In what sense is abortion immoral?

I don't buy the 'cos you're killing a baby' argument, because there are times when abortion is needed to save the mother's life. Or times (such as after a rape or similar sensitive situation) when not having an abortion could psychologically scar the mother.

If we dis-regard the above situations, then there is no argument against abortion being available for at least part of the pregnancy i.e. until a certain point in the embryo's development.

Arguments against such really do weaken the ability of women to make independent decisions, particularly as it seems that amongst women there is majority support for abortion. It is their body, after all.

[Desperado]

In what sense is abortion immoral?


I didn't say that it was (I think it's fine in most cases). I said the belief that it's immoral is compatible with socialism and gender equality.

[ColonelCossack]

The ban on abortion was introduced prior to WW2.

ok


I dunno

[Quail]

I didn't say that it was (I think it's fine in most cases). I said the belief that it's immoral is compatible with socialism and gender equality.
No it isn't. If women are forced to carry a child they don't want (because even with great access to contraception, accidents do happen) then they can't participate fully in society and have the same opportunities to live their life to the full as men do, so the belief that abortion is immoral (or the consequences and logical conclusion of that belief, i.e. banning or restricting abortion) is not compatible with a free and equal society with gender equality. Saying that women shouldn't have abortions is saying that women shouldn't have the right to bodily autonomy and the right to choose whether or not to have a child.

[Rafiq]

The soviets did not ban abortion because they deemed it immoral, they banned it for economic reasons.

It's still not an excuse.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This thread should be in the Discrimination forum.

That said, a modern solution to the abortion debate may be found in this discussion:

Public orphanages: dangerous anti-abortion precedents? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/public-orphanages-dangerous-t146796/index.html)