Care to turn me into a leftist ?

[PassTheBeer]

by leftist I mean far left..

How exactly are you going to make millions of people join "the revolution" if those asking for a debate get banned, or are am not welcome here etc. Begin growing your red worker army with me, I'm your average right-wing Joe. I drive a yellow Volvo and work in the commerce department of a firm that sells agricultural parts.

I couldn't remember my account so I tried to make a new one.. This caught my eye:

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!

Yeah, this just shines with style and intellectualism. I mean seriously, the first association were a bunch of punks with red mohawks writing this in the basement. No style at all.. I mean seriously, here is what Von Thronsthal would say:

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/299630/Von+Thronstahl.jpg

and yes, you need style..

Here is what I support:

Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values
Green politics
Intelectualism
Pan-europeanism
Strict immigration laws
Conscription (and light militarism)
Palestine state
Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
Don't ask don't tell
Anti-communism

Lets keep it civil.
I'm not a fascist, nazi, national-bolshevik, monarchist, national-syndicalist bla bla bla , so admin, please don't satisfy your urge to ban me, I've heard the admins here are easy on the trigger.

game on (I'm still guessing I will be banned or mocked.. please surprise me)

[Susurrus]

Well, what exactly do you want to know, what causes you to support what you do, and what are your problems with communism?

[Nox]

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!

Yeah, this just shines with style and intellectualism. I mean seriously, the first association were a bunch of punks with red mohawks writing this in the basement.

I feel this is justified. 95%+ of the non-Communists on here are either attention seekers or trolls. This is a Communist forum, if you're a right-winger and can't accept our rules then simply fuck off.

[danyboy27]

non-leftist asking for debates are not banned but restricted, and while you are restricted nothing is stopping you from creating thread and engaging in such debates.

[Obs]

Well that's great but if you can't explain why you hold your views we can't discuss with you, because then it's fairly obvious you're just stubbornly clinging to these views rather than basing them on thought.

[Nox]

I think the best thing to do first would be for someone to explain to him how bad Capitalism is, once you make them anti-Capitalist all you have to do is make them interationalist and boom, they're all yours :D

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Here is what I support:

Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values
Green politics
Intelectualism
Pan-europeanism
Strict immigration laws
Conscription (and light militarism)
Palestine state
Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
Don't ask don't tell
Anti-communism

Given this list, I'm not at all sure that I can reason you out of positions you don't appear to have reached using reason.

[danyboy27]

what do you think about teaching gay history in class?

[Thirsty Crow]

I don't think it's fair to just drop a list and expect people to construct arguments dealing with why these positions are reactionary or whatever.

You should first explain your positions.

[Ocean Seal]

Fiscal conservatism

We don't subscribe to the fiscally liberal/conservative label. We're communists and support the planned economy. So debating on this seems rather meaningless.



Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values

Just because something has been around a long time doesn't make it good.


Green politics

Within reason most of us do to.



Intelectualism
Pan-europeanism
Strict immigration laws
Anti-communism
Conscription (and light militarism)
Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)

All of these things combined sound a little quasi-fascist. You really can't be fiscally conservative with the later two.
Also there is no such thing as a military invasion for humanitarian causes.



Palestine state

So do we.




Don't ask don't tell

Herp. Why?



Lets keep it civil.
I'm not a fascist, nazi, national-bolshevik, monarchist, national-syndicalist bla bla bla , so admin, please don't satisfy your urge to ban me, I've heard the admins here are easy on the trigger.

game on (I'm still guessing I will be banned or mocked.. please surprise me)
I'm guessing you've trolled here before. Troll on good sir.

[Rafiq]

The revolution does not happen by 'getting support'. It just happens. Kind of like whats happening in Britain.

You selfish fucking prick, you obviously haven't been hit by this fucking capitalist mess and therefore can go on "I'm an objectivist, I'm a tea partyer" blah blah fucking blah blah.

Fuck off and die. We don't need you in our movement, just like we don't need the fackin bourgeoisie.

[Rafiq]

http://opportunitymontana.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/che-guevara-1963-51468.jpg

Oh, and we have style.

[Nox]

http://opportunitymontana.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/che-guevara-1963-51468.jpg

Oh, and we have style.

No, Comrade, THIS is what I call style...

http://files.sharenator.com/stalin_1902_small_Young_Stalin-s500x672-1655-580.jpg

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

At the tail end of the Nineteenth Century a group known as the People’s Will was trying to organize the workers of Saint Petersburg. The workers weren’t impressed. Finally, one of them told the organizers, "I listen to you and all the time I have the feeling that you want to get us mad. We want you to give us the facts, and when we know everything and the time comes to get mad, we will get mad ourselves."

One day a grizzled old museum visitor told me, "I hear you lecture and I have the feeling that you want to sell me something: Beauty, revolution, the joys of being rich. Give me the facts, and when the time comes to produce or to consume—the time when I decide what to produce, how to consume—I’ll make my own decisions, thank you."

There’s really not much need to get folks mad these days; just tell them what they’re mad about.

- from The Red Museum. Art, economics and the ends of capital. New York: The Orange Press (http://theorangepress.com/publications/theredmuseum.html).

[PassTheBeer]

Well, what exactly do you want to know, what causes you to support what you do, and what are your problems with communism?

I'm conservative, to say at least. I think communism could only work if there was no sin. People are not fair , they want power

[PassTheBeer]

I feel this is justified. 95%+ of the non-Communists on here are either attention seekers or trolls. This is a Communist forum, if you're a right-winger and can't accept our rules then simply fuck off.

Debate could strengthen your viewpoints or make you realize some errors you did not see earlier. I'm gouseeing most of you here are impressionable teenagers or students in their rebel phase.

[PassTheBeer]

non-leftist asking for debates are not banned but restricted, and while you are restricted nothing is stopping you from creating thread and engaging in such debates.

I'm cool with that

[PassTheBeer]

Well that's great but if you can't explain why you hold your views we can't discuss with you, because then it's fairly obvious you're just stubbornly clinging to these views rather than basing them on thought.

Fair enough. An open market encourages competition, it makes people study and contribute more to the society. Its a high risk, high reward system. I don't see a alternative. I'm guessing center left is also a valid option. Although its more "human friendly" It still works well. I am what I am because I think its the best system and because I think communism and anarchism are impossible while there is sin (to explain that as a christian). Besides, I relay relay hate the concept of not having private property.

There are practical problems also.. lets say there is no money and you take what you want. I wouldn't work.. why should I ? I work to achieve my goals, sustain the people I care for. I really wouldn't work if I didn't have to. For whom should I ? For you ? No thanks. I'm a lone wolf.

[PassTheBeer]

I think the best thing to do first would be for someone to explain to him how bad Capitalism is, once you make them anti-Capitalist all you have to do is make them interationalist and boom, they're all yours :D

Capitalism works fine for me and the people I know. There are ups and downs but society is advancing all the time. Communism/anarchism is just too much of a radical change

[PassTheBeer]

Given this list, I'm not at all sure that I can reason you out of positions you don't appear to have reached using reason.

Oh wow, what a hardcore answer. It seems the majority of the world is dumb and the little fraction of intellectuals is on this forum. Gee, I feel warm having the honor of not being banned from here yet :rolleyes:

[PassTheBeer]

what do you think about teaching gay history in class?

Not necessary for compulsory education. Humanistic, sociologist etc. studies can have that.

[RGacky3]

Ok here we go.

1: When you have undemocracic power structures that control resources and capital and also control profit you'll have undemocratic outcomes, this is the reason we went from monarchies to democracies, and this is why we need to go from an economy where capitalists (board of directors, bankers and so on) control and allocate all the capital and resources to a system where communities control the economies that affect them and workers control the workplace they work in, and the value they produce.

2: Its moral, under capitalism you basically have a tyrannical system of domination by the capitalists over the rest of the world, they control much of the state, they control resources, they control capital, they control distribution, and this is innately immoral, socialism calls for democratic control of the economic structures of society, it takes economic freedom and extends it to everyone, everyone can have a say in the economic aspects that directly affect their life, starting with the workplace.

Capitalism forces people to be selfish and greedy, by rewarding it, and then excluding empathy and compassion and solidarity from economic activity, human nature has nothing to do with it, its simple cause and effect, if you reward something, more people will do it.

3: It works, Capitalism does not. Capitalism requires constant growth (This is due to its very nature, competition the profit motive and so on, if you want a further explination of this I'll give it to you, but this is not disputed by any economists) to survive, once it has grown up to the point that the market can handle, it does one of 3 things,
a:it cuts variable costs (almost always labor),
b:it creates bubles, or
c:it collapses,
the first one is what generally happens, but that leads to a lack of demand further exhasberating the problem, infact then you have a recession which ends up leading go collapse. If you have the second one eventually the bubble will burst exhasburating the problem and leading to a collapse. THe last one is what inveriably always happens.

Socialism gets rid of that problem by creating and economy based on human need, and democratic participation rather that purpetual profits and growth, it also replaces some markets (different socialists thing differently as to what type of markets need to be replaced, they all agree on the capital market and labor market) with democratic structures which essencially replaces FORCED competition with cooperation.

4: The USSR and Leninist states were not socialist, heres how you know, did the workers control the means of production? No, not even a bit, was the economy democratically run? No, not even a bit.

Infact the German Co-Determination law, and publicly accountible productive companies (Statoil) are some of the best national examples of socialism today, as well as non-national examples, such as the Zapatistas, worker controlled companies (like the takeovers in Argentina or other cooperatives under the capitalist system), and so on and so forth.


You selfish fucking prick, you obviously haven't been hit by this fucking capitalist mess and therefore can go on "I'm an objectivist, I'm a tea partyer" blah blah fucking blah blah.

Fuck off and die. We don't need you in our movement, just like we don't need the fackin bourgeoisie.

You should see someone.

[PassTheBeer]

We don't subscribe to the fiscally liberal/conservative label. We're communists and support the planned economy. So debating on this seems rather meaningless.


1. Just because something has been around a long time doesn't make it good.

2. All of these things combined sound a little quasi-fascist. You really can't be fiscally conservative with the later two.
Also there is no such thing as a military invasion for humanitarian causes.

3. Herp. Why?

4. I'm guessing you've trolled here before. Troll on good sir.

1. I believe they prevent our society from decaying.

2. Well.. it does sound a bit.. but just a little bit. Yes, they can go together.. Republican Party anyone ? :D Anyway.. I believe conscription is good for several practical reasons.. you learn teamwork, are not allowed to drink, smoke or do drugs, you upgrade your health and your body. You also learn to defend yourself and your kin, you learn a neat amount of other things like psychology, history, mechanics etc. Its like school.. with more firepower.

3. Their sexual preferences are not the issue of society.. Do we really need to know what they like in bed ?

4. not true, but thanks anyway

[Susurrus]

Try reading some Kropotkin some time, here's a link: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/KropotkinCW.html

Emma Goldman's good too: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/GoldmanCW.html

[PassTheBeer]

The revolution does not happen by 'getting support'. It just happens. Kind of like whats happening in Britain.

You selfish fucking prick, you obviously haven't been hit by this fucking capitalist mess and therefore can go on "I'm an objectivist, I'm a tea partyer" blah blah fucking blah blah.

Fuck off and die. We don't need you in our movement, just like we don't need the fackin bourgeoisie.

I'm guessing you were among the rioters and got yourself a nice capitalistic 40" LCD.

You obviously need more manpower, I'm sure the tea party members pack more firepower.

By being rude you make yourself look stoopid, I recommend you listen to Von Thronstahl and get some more of that style.

[Susurrus]

Anyway, here's a critique of capitalism in a handy phrase "If a man has a dollar he didn't work for, another man worked for a dollar he didn't get."

[PassTheBeer]

No, Comrade, THIS is what I call style...

http://files.sharenator.com/stalin_1902_small_Young_Stalin-s500x672-1655-580.jpg

http://www.yaare.com/wp-content/themes/gazette/2010/01/arnold-schwarzenegger11.jpg
(http://www.yaare.com/wp-content/themes/gazette/2010/01/arnold-schwarzenegger11.jpg)

[Susurrus]

I'm conservative, to say at least. I think communism could only work if there was no sin. People are not fair , they want power

Yes, I could tell, but why are you conservative?

In communism, the motivation to "sin" will be lost. People will have what they need, and be free to do what they want.(That is, in anarcho-communism)

That's why hierarchy, privilege and inequality should be abolished.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm conservative, to say at least. I think communism could only work if there was no sin. People are not fair , they want power

First of all, you need to prove the existence of such a thing as "sin" in the first place, which is a tenet of Christianity rather than a scientific observation.

Secondly, I think it would be reasonable to say that even children have an innate sense of fairness - how many times has a child said "that's not fair!" and been given the thought-terminating cliche of "life's not fair" as if it were some kind of meaningful response?

Thirdly, yes, people want power. They usually want power over their own lives, which is fair enough as it goes, the fact that some sociopathic types seek power over others' lives is no reason we should condone it as a society.


Debate could strengthen your viewpoints or make you realize some errors you did not see earlier. I'm gouseeing most of you here are impressionable teenagers or students in their rebel phase.

Guess again.


Fair enough. An open market encourages competition, it makes people study and contribute more to the society. Its a high risk, high reward system. I don't see a alternative. I'm guessing center left is also a valid option. Although its more "human friendly" It still works well. I am what I am because I think its the best system and because I think communism and anarchism are impossible while there is sin (to explain that as a christian). Besides, I relay relay hate the concept of not having private property.

Why?


There are practical problems also.. lets say there is no money and you take what you want. I wouldn't work.. why should I ? I work to achieve my goals, sustain the people I care for. I really wouldn't work if I didn't have to. For whom should I ? For you ? No thanks. I'm a lone wolf.

The mistake here is in assuming that there is absolutely no overlap between the goals of society and your own. I want a long, healthy and entertaining life, and I realise that a system that fucks over 95% of the human species to various degrees is not in my own best interest. I'd also like to become a scientist, a career that would be both personally fulfilling and beneficial to society.

What about you? What potentials of your own do you want to realise?


Capitalism works fine for me and the people I know.

Try looking harder, and you'll see that most people in this world aren't getting the goods under the current socioeconomic regime. The political establishment is complicit in maintaining this situation.


There are ups and downs but society is advancing all the time.

Advancing in what way? The rich-poor divide is increasing (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0614/p01s03-usec.html?s=itm), so economically we're going backwards I'd say.


Communism/anarchism is just too much of a radical change

By what standard?


Oh wow, what a hardcore answer. It seems the majority of the world is dumb and the little fraction of intellectuals is on this forum. Gee, I feel warm having the honor of not being banned from here yet :rolleyes:

I never said anything about the intelligence of the rest of the world, I was quite specific.

In any case, you couldn't be more wrong about my position on other peoples' intelligence. Experience has taught me that almost anyone can learn critical thinking, provided they are truly willing to learn, and not just looking to score rhetorical points.

[PassTheBeer]

Ok here we go.

1: When you have undemocracic power structures that control resources and capital and also control profit you'll have undemocratic outcomes, this is the reason we went from monarchies to democracies, and this is why we need to go from an economy where capitalists (board of directors, bankers and so on) control and allocate all the capital and resources to a system where communities control the economies that affect them and workers control the workplace they work in, and the value they produce.

2: Its moral, under capitalism you basically have a tyrannical system of domination by the capitalists over the rest of the world, they control much of the state, they control resources, they control capital, they control distribution, and this is innately immoral, socialism calls for democratic control of the economic structures of society, it takes economic freedom and extends it to everyone, everyone can have a say in the economic aspects that directly affect their life, starting with the workplace.

Capitalism forces people to be selfish and greedy, by rewarding it, and then excluding empathy and compassion and solidarity from economic activity, human nature has nothing to do with it, its simple cause and effect, if you reward something, more people will do it.

3: It works, Capitalism does not. Capitalism requires constant growth (This is due to its very nature, competition the profit motive and so on, if you want a further explination of this I'll give it to you, but this is not disputed by any economists) to survive, once it has grown up to the point that the market can handle, it does one of 3 things,
a:it cuts variable costs (almost always labor),
b:it creates bubles, or
c:it collapses,
the first one is what generally happens, but that leads to a lack of demand further exhasberating the problem, infact then you have a recession which ends up leading go collapse. If you have the second one eventually the bubble will burst exhasburating the problem and leading to a collapse. THe last one is what inveriably always happens.

Socialism gets rid of that problem by creating and economy based on human need, and democratic participation rather that purpetual profits and growth, it also replaces some markets (different socialists thing differently as to what type of markets need to be replaced, they all agree on the capital market and labor market) with democratic structures which essencially replaces FORCED competition with cooperation.

4: The USSR and Leninist states were not socialist, heres how you know, did the workers control the means of production? No, not even a bit, was the economy democratically run? No, not even a bit.

Infact the German Co-Determination law, and publicly accountible productive companies (Statoil) are some of the best national examples of socialism today, as well as non-national examples, such as the Zapatistas, worker controlled companies (like the takeovers in Argentina or other cooperatives under the capitalist system), and so on and so forth.

4. If people are just, yes, socialism can work.. For example, if 30 friends are stranded on a small island. But world wide anarcho-communism ? No way
I'm not sure what you are, however I could live in a Cuban like socialist state if the living standards are decent. I just like the feeling of earning something. I'm not really motivated to work If I gain null.

3. Yes, capitalism needs to grow... If we had the technology they have on star trek where they create stuff out of nothing, I could somewhat imagine a communist world.. But its still very early for that. I advocate a capitalistic system that has anti-globalist elements. Take for example Sweden. What are the chances their economy will collapse ? Not by their fault but by the collapse that happens in the US monetary system for example. I guess returning to the gold standard could prevent a lot of problems.

2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it. Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.

1. later about this

[PassTheBeer]

Anyway, here's a critique of capitalism in a handy phrase "If a man has a dollar he didn't work for, another man worked for a dollar he didn't get."

explain that further

[Susurrus]

explain that further

Long Version: http://books.google.com/books?id=afUtAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=capital+marx#v=onepage&q&f=false

Shorter version: Basically, the capitalist pays the worker for his labor, then sells what is produced for more than what he has paid the worker for it.

Oh, and the quote is from Bill Haywood.

[RGacky3]

4. If people are just, yes, socialism can work.. For example, if 30 friends are stranded on a small island. But world wide anarcho-communism ? No way
I'm not sure what you are, however I could live in a Cuban like socialist state if the living standards are decent. I just like the feeling of earning something. I'm not really motivated to work If I gain null.

No, it works the same way as democracy, you don't need people to be "just" or whatever, the same way you don't need people to be just in democracy.

Infact you diceminate power, meaning individuals being just is less important, when you have capitalism you basically require an insanely altruistic capitalist (which never happens).


3. Yes, capitalism needs to grow... If we had the technology they have on star trek where they create stuff out of nothing, I could somewhat imagine a communist world.. But its still very early for that. I advocate a capitalistic system that has anti-globalist elements. Take for example Sweden. What are the chances their economy will collapse ? Not by their fault but by the collapse that happens in the US monetary system for example. I guess returning to the gold standard could prevent a lot of problems.


Why on earth would you need technology of startred to create socialist? Capitalism REQUIRES growth, constant, thats why it does'nt work, Sweedens economy is less likely to crash than the US because its implimented some socialistic reforms.

Going back to the gold standard would created insane deflation and contract the economy to the point to where you'd essencially have the collapse of capitalism, which is inevitable anyway.

ANyway I don't think you get it, socialism is nothing more than a democratic economy and a democratic mode of production, you don't nee super technology, you don't need people to be magically just.


2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it. Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.


Actually if you invent something in Capitalism you don't profit from it, in the real world its the funders that profit, actually many inventions are made in the public sphere and passed on to the private for profit (because inventing has a bad cost-profit ratio).

Its not Capitalism that forces people to work, its life, Capitalism just organizes in a way where the profits benefit a few, and exploit the rest.

Freedom IS a basic human right, which is why it should be extended to everyone and not just a rich elite.

If your against big corporatiosn then your against Capitalism, because thats what you get when you have capitalism, the very nature of capitalism concentrates wealth in a few, more and more.

BTW, large corporations control the vast vast vast majority of the economy.


1. later about this

By all means, but make sure you read my posts carefully and think about what I'm saying before you respond, because it seams like your not doing that.

[Susurrus]

Shorter version: Basically, the capitalist pays the worker for his labor, then sells what is produced for more than what he has paid the worker for it.



More on the subject:

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-07-22/1279803439906.jpg

[PassTheBeer]

Yes, I could tell, but why are you conservative?

In communism, the motivation to "sin" will be lost. People will have what they need, and be free to do what they want.(That is, in anarcho-communism)

That's why hierarchy, privilege and inequality should be abolished.


Conservative is somewhat of a wide term. I'm really not sure how to explain that. I'm economically and socially conservative.. why ? I guess its not enough if I say that my consciousness says its for the best (social) ?
Economically I'm conservative because , well, look at history.. Because of the free market and competition, humanity made huge advances and continues to do so. In theory its good, however there have been crises, like in other systems that we seen in history (soviet famine anyone?).. It gives chance to the individual, if you offer something others want (work,land,product), you get your reward, pretty simple.


In communism, the motivation to "sin" will be lost. People will have what they need, and be free to do what they want.(That is, in anarcho-communism)

What about power and hierarchy ? If we are all equal and have everything, you think everyone will join a circle and sing kum-ba-ya ? Why would anyone work ? Capitalism is like a reward system.. contribute and you get a cookie. It has its flaws, but it can be smoothed out. I'm trying to imagine a communist world.. I'd go take myself a Maserati , a bottle of vodka and drive around doing nothing.. I have everything, why should I torture myself with education if I'm doing so well. And guess what, other people would think that. People will not become "good" magically as soon we introduce anarchy. You think everyone (100%) will be fair and support the system (or lack of system)? Its almost inevitable it would be a world wide civil war (with hundreds of factions).. You will never rid the world its desire for power, or nationalism or religions or racism etc. I think a world wide Stalinist regime could work better than world wide anarchy. The sheep need a shepard.

[Hit The North]

2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it.


If you believe this, then you must concede that the majority of people under capitalism do not enjoy economic freedom in that they are not free from economic compulsion. The economy has the whip hand and the worker has no option but to bend. It is also clear that capitalism creates the most divided and unequal societies where a lot of human potential is squandered.

The point of communism is too give everyone freedom from economic compulsion by fully socialising the means of production.

Meanwhile, large corporations are not an accidental fact of history but are an inevitable outgrowth of the accumulation of capital and the competitive dynamic of markets. Free markets based on bourgeois property relations will tend towards monopoly, notwithstanding certain countervailing tendencies such as state interference in the form of anti-monopoly legislation.


Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.Yes, despite the potential technology holds for liberating mankind from much existing labour, under the capitalist mode of production, where profit is king, technology is used to maintain profitability, often by forcing people to work longer hours for shrinking rates of pay. So actually, forcing people to work (that is, negating their economic freedom) is a bad thing. It is another way in which capitalism negates out potential to be truly free.

[PassTheBeer]

More on the subject:

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-07-22/1279803439906.jpg

Then the worker should open his own machine shop, leas a machine and do what the does. However, the fat capitalist had the idea, recruited the manpower, found the market. But most importantly, he took risk, that's what business is about.

[PassTheBeer]

First of all, you need to prove the existence of such a thing as "sin" in the first place, which is a tenet of Christianity rather than a scientific observation.

Secondly, I think it would be reasonable to say that even children have an innate sense of fairness - how many times has a child said "that's not fair!" and been given the thought-terminating cliche of "life's not fair" as if it were some kind of meaningful response?

Thirdly, yes, people want power. They usually want power over their own lives, which is fair enough as it goes, the fact that some sociopathic types seek power over others' lives is no reason we should condone it as a society.



Guess again.



Why?



The mistake here is in assuming that there is absolutely no overlap between the goals of society and your own. I want a long, healthy and entertaining life, and I realise that a system that fucks over 95% of the human species to various degrees is not in my own best interest. I'd also like to become a scientist, a career that would be both personally fulfilling and beneficial to society.

What about you? What potentials of your own do you want to realise?



Try looking harder, and you'll see that most people in this world aren't getting the goods under the current socioeconomic regime. The political establishment is complicit in maintaining this situation.



Advancing in what way? The rich-poor divide is increasing (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0614/p01s03-usec.html?s=itm), so economically we're going backwards I'd say.



By what standard?



I never said anything about the intelligence of the rest of the world, I was quite specific.

In any case, you couldn't be more wrong about my position on other peoples' intelligence. Experience has taught me that almost anyone can learn critical thinking, provided they are truly willing to learn, and not just looking to score rhetorical points.

I'm having trouble answering to this since I don't see what I wrote when replying. Tips ?

[28350]

derp herp he took the risk

if you're not working class, no, i don't care to turn you into anything

[Obs]

Then the worker should open his own machine shop, leas a machine and do what the does. However, the fat capitalist had the idea, recruited the manpower, found the market. But most importantly, he took risk, that's what business is about.

What does the capitalist produce? How does he earn his money? Is he worth all that money just for "taking risk" when in fact, he is only an unnecessary middle man between the worker and his product?

[Blackburn]

I couldn't remember my account so I tried to make a new one.. This caught my eye:


This is right out of the Encyclopaedia Dramatica instructions on how to troll revleft.

Don't let the door hit you on your reactionary ass on the way out.

[PassTheBeer]

If you believe this, then you must concede that the majority of people under capitalism do not enjoy economic freedom in that they are not free from economic compulsion. The economy has the whip hand and the worker has no option but to bend. It is also clear that capitalism creates the most divided and unequal societies where a lot of human potential is squandered.

It has its flaws, but its a sustainable system. Take any western countries and look at the facts: you get healthcare, education and food.. almost any job you take can make your life sustainable.

The point of communism is too give everyone freedom from economic compulsion by fully socialising the means of production.
Sound good.. I doubt it would work good

Meanwhile, large corporations are not an accidental fact of history but are an inevitable outgrowth of the accumulation of capital and the competitive dynamic of markets. Free markets based on bourgeois property relations will tend towards monopoly, notwithstanding certain countervailing tendencies such as state interference in the form of anti-monopoly legislation.
There is truth in that , however, like them or not, companies did not become big because they sell bad stuff. Audi isn't a rich company because they sell horrible carps.. McDonald's isn't big because their food tastes bad.

Yes, despite the potential technology holds for liberating mankind from much existing labour, under the capitalist mode of production, where profit is king, technology is used to maintain profitability, often by forcing people to work longer hours for shrinking rates of pay. So actually, forcing people to work (that is, negating their economic freedom) is a bad thing. It is another way in which capitalism negates out potential to be truly free.

Varies case by case... if you have low education, expected a according salary. If you educated yourself to be a doctor or to be extremely good at cooking you can have a very nice life.

[PassTheBeer]

derp herp he took the risk

if you're not working class, no, i don't care to turn you into anything

I work for my employer.. not good enough ?

[PassTheBeer]

This is right out of the Encyclopaedia Dramatica instructions on how to troll revleft.

Don't let the door hit you on your reactionary ass on the way out.

Freedom of expression.. sometimes it really does suck, right ?

[hatzel]

Because I'm more of a herp-a-derper than somebody who actually takes these kinds of people seriously, I'll just point out that my favourite bit was when the word


Intelectualism

was misspelt :)

...not that I actually care, though...

[PassTheBeer]

Because I'm more of a herp-a-derper than somebody who actually takes these kinds of people seriously, I'll just point out that my favourite bit was when the word



was misspelt :)

...not that I actually care, though...

I dropped an L.. I apologize mr. grammar red guard, for a mistake I made in a tongue that is not my own.. In fact, a language not even from my language group. I really really apologize for that. Please don't deport me to a gulag

[Zealot]

Just for clarification, have you read the communist manifesto or other?


Capitalism is like a reward system.. contribute and you get a cookie.

This is where we think you're wrong, it's more like contribute and get half a cookie. Why? As it was already explained, the capitalist pays you less then what the product you made is actually worth. For example, the capitalist pays you $50 to make a chair, the materials you use to make that are pre-bought by the capitalist at a value of also $50. On the face of it, the chair should be worth $100, but then he goes and sells it for $200, essentially stealing $100 of your unpaid labor.



I'm trying to imagine a communist world.. I'd go take myself a Maserati , a bottle of vodka and drive around doing nothing.. I have everything, why should I torture myself with education if I'm doing so well. And guess what, other people would think that.

You seem to think communism is utopian, which is why I have doubts you have read das kapital or any of the more condensed articles Marx wrote. In fact, Marx and Engels spent a great deal of time rebuking utopian ideas.

[Susurrus]

I apologize mr. grammar red guard, for a mistake I made in a tongue that is not my own.. In fact, a language not even from my language group. I really really apologize for that. Please don't deport me to a gulag

That's Spell Cheka around these parts.

[gendoikari]

How exactly are you going to make millions of people join "the revolution" if those asking for a debate get banned

Can't really talk on here at all anyway, you'd get seen and have a tail put on you in no time. PM's are your friend.

[gendoikari]

Debate could strengthen your viewpoints or make you realize some errors you did not see earlier. I'm gouseeing most of you here are impressionable teenagers or students in their rebel phase.

24, Became a socialist when I actually studied capitalism, realized it can't work in conjunction with a democracy, and looked for alternatives.

[Bardo]

Here is what I support:

Fiscal conservatism

Fair enough ;)


Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values

What does this mean? That there is a template outlining how we should live our lives? Who decides which values are to be accepted? Is this conducive to social freedom? In other words, who cares how others live their lives?


Green politics
Intelectualism
Palestine state

I'm sure many here would agree.






Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)

Iraq, Afghanistan ect ect.







I'm conservative, to say at least. I think communism could only work if there was no sin. People are not fair , they want power

This is exactly why power should be spread out across society, rather than placed into the hands of a landlord or the rich. Capitalism gives a few people power over the majority, while communism gives power to the majority over the few. When people have the means to gain more and more influence over the lives of others they will take it. I don't understand your argument here, people naturally want power and control over others, so let's give it to them?

I would use this statement but in reverse. Capitalism could work if there was no sin. People are not fair, they want power.




1. I believe they prevent our society from decaying.

Capitalism is preventing society from decaying? Do you live in the same universe that I live in?


2. Well.. it does sound a bit.. but just a little bit. Yes, they can go together.. Republican Party anyone ? :D Anyway.. I believe conscription is good for several practical reasons.. you learn teamwork, are not allowed to drink, smoke or do drugs, you upgrade your health and your body. You also learn to defend yourself and your kin, you learn a neat amount of other things like psychology, history, mechanics etc. Its like school.. with more firepower.

You know what else is like school? School :P

Which would be compulsory and absolutely free in a communist society.



3. Their sexual preferences are not the issue of society.. Do we really need to know what they like in bed ?

We don't. However, this shouldn't determine whether or not they are fit for service.

[hatzel]

Please don't deport me to a gulag

You know I would have spared you, if it weren't for...


I'm gouseeing most of you here...

...and...


I relay relay hate the concept...

Unfortunately we operate a three-strikes-and-you're-out system here in the Spell Cheka, so...sorry about that, my hands are tied by the system :)

(Oh, but also gulags were something them pesky Marxists did and I'm not a Marxist, so don't make assumptions! To be honest, I should deport you to a gulag just for claiming I'd deport anybody to a gulag! :lol:)

[Agent Ducky]

, I should deport you to a gulag just for claiming I'd deport anybody to a gulag! :lol:)
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/320/e/9/gir_head_asplode_by_captainvendetta-d330mzd.gif

[gendoikari]

Fair enough. An open market encourages competition, it makes people study and contribute more to the society. Its a high risk, high reward system. I don't see a alternative. I'm guessing center left is also a valid option. Although its more "human friendly" It still works well. I am what I am because I think its the best system and because I think communism and anarchism are impossible while there is sin (to explain that as a christian). Besides, I relay relay hate the concept of not having private property.


I think you have been misled to believe communism is something that is isn't. By private property what is mean is the means of production, factories, assembly lines and the like. your home, your car, your TV are PERSONAL property. Those are fully yours.



There are practical problems also.. lets say there is no money and you take what you want. I wouldn't work.. why should I ? I work to achieve my goals, sustain the people I care for. I really wouldn't work if I didn't have to. For whom should I ? For you ? No thanks. I'm a lone wolf.

Here lies the difference between true communism (AKA NOT what the soviet union, china or north korea were) and socialism. Under socialism, the means of production are owned in common, basically "corporations" would be run by the people and the profit motive would be eliminated. Why is that a good thing?

The profit motive under capitalism creates competition, which is good for getting people to race to the top.... on the bodies of others. By instilling the profit motive what you have done is create an ultra efficient mechanism for generating Currency. To do that it dictates that your income be higher than your costs. ergo under capitalism where profit is sought at all cost, those costs... workers wages are cut to the bare minimum that they will accept, and those that are good at doing this profit from it as they take a bit off the top, or in some cases all of it. so while you have people working under you, they aren't paid what they deserve but mearly by the mechanism of capitalism the bare minimum. Which is why some socialist have taken to calling it wage slavery. This dichotomy creates a capital class of owners, who have a great deal of the wealth by doing comparatively little compared to their share, and working class which receive very little. Over time this wealth difference widens and the capital class can actually use it to further their own ends cutting wages for the working class even further and further. Making them less and less willing to fight and more willing to accept lower wages.

What socialism does is it take this ultra comparative mode out. It's still there, but for a different reason, the competitiveness is more a sense of creation, and instead of having people who own the means of production and exploit the workers you have managers who oversee the means of production, whom are elected by the workers on their behalf and can be recalled. In this sense you will never see an export of american jobs overseas. In fact globally the jobs market would increase due to the nature of socialism being to the betterment of mankind rather than to the pursuit of capital.

True COMMUNISM however on the other hand is a true classless society where currency is even eliminated. I contend that this is possible with the robotization of the workforce, something marx himself forsaw 163 years ago, however not in what way it would be accomplished. With this done the average person would not have to work, and all means would be produced almost totally automatically. However we would still need inventors, creators and scientists and the like. But most of these people would be happy to do those jobs free of charge anyway in a society where their needs are met anyway. I for one could not see my self sitting alone at home all day. I am an engineer I create, I design it is my passion. I mean most scientists aren't that well paid, and are smart enough that with a business degree they could make 100k mid career easy, they don't. Care to guess why?

So You see the advantages of the capitalist system can be found in a communist/socialist one, only without the exploitation.

[gendoikari]

I'm guessing you were among the rioters and got yourself a nice capitalistic 40" LCD.

You make it sound like only capitalism can have 40" flatscreens..... Not true. So not fucking true.


By being rude you make yourself look stoopid, I recommend you listen to Von Thronstahl and get some more of that style.

yes well there are a lot more of us whom can have a clam debate about this rather than flame. Please ignore the flamers.


There is truth in that , however, like them or not, companies did not become big because they sell bad stuff. Audi isn't a rich company because they sell horrible carps.. McDonald's isn't big because their food tastes bad.

FALSE: Core tenant of capitalism is to make more profit which means make it as cheap as you can. Sell it for as high as you can. Audi makes good cars because it occupies that niche in the market but more often then not products are made with planned obsolescence with a high initial quality to appear as good as a well made product of a different brand. But lasting half as long means they earn twice as much. Just compare products made in the 60's before this became too popular and products made now. I've got several staplers for the 60's that still work. But the one at school made of plastic my teacher has on her desk she bought two months ago... broken.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm having trouble answering to this since I don't see what I wrote when replying. Tips ?

Open a new window/tab with your original post in it. Alternate between that and the reply you're composing as needed.

[PassTheBeer]

That's Spell Cheka around these parts.

good one ;)

[RGacky3]

pass the beer, respond to my points.

[PassTheBeer]

True COMMUNISM however on the other hand is a true classless society where currency is even eliminated. I contend that this is possible with the robotization of the workforce, something marx himself forsaw 163 years ago, however not in what way it would be accomplished.

Yes, that way I can imagine communism.

Good post.. made me think.

[gendoikari]

pass the beer, respond to my points.

yeah mine too if your really here to have a discussion on socialism/communism.

Edit: thank you. See the robotization of the workforce i see as an instigation for communism whether in a capitalist state or a socialistic one. but under socialism everyone is paid according to their labor. The bosses who take risk and MANGAGE, not own anymore, but MANAGE won't be taking a risk anymore because the initial capital investments will be owned by the people, and they will simply manage things.... however, they won't make inflated pay checks, they will mearly make what is a fair wage for managing things.

[Revolution starts with U]

Poof, you're a leftist :cool:

[PassTheBeer]

pass the beer, respond to my points.

I did, after the admin post, page 2, scroll down

[RGacky3]

I mean my response to what you wrote after, because as I replied, you did'nt actually grasp what I was saying or make a real response to what I was saying.

[PassTheBeer]

[QUOTE=ÑóẊîöʼn;2207148]First of all, you need to prove the existence of such a thing as "sin" in the first place, which is a tenet of Christianity rather than a scientific observation.

Sin, aka. greed, selfishness, lust for power, sloth.

Secondly, I think it would be reasonable to say that even children have an innate sense of fairness - how many times has a child said "that's not fair!" and been given the thought-terminating cliche of "life's not fair" as if it were some kind of meaningful response? Children are often more pure than adults. I'm not sure where you're getting at.

Thirdly, yes, people want power. They usually want power over their own lives, which is fair enough as it goes, the fact that some sociopathic types seek power over others' lives is no reason we should condone it as a society. I would say they want more power over their peers.

Guess again. Ok

Why? Its a basic human right. I find an acorn, its mine now. But I'm guessing I don't qute undertand that part of communism yet. Lets say I have a ice cream machine, I think its my right to use it how I want, or exchange the ice cream for other assets. I'm not really fond of forced sharing. However, I do support charity.

The mistake here is in assuming that there is absolutely no overlap between the goals of society and your own. I want a long, healthy and entertaining life, and I realise that a system that fucks over 95% of the human species to various degrees is not in my own best interest. I'd also like to become a scientist, a career that would be both personally fulfilling and beneficial to society.

What about you? What potentials of your own do you want to realise? I'd like to start my own business, probably as a used equipment dealer. I'd also make spare parts like cogs and sprockets with my brother. We have some machines in our garage.. they are old but they can be used. But to sum it up, I want to succeed. I want to be able to wield economic power and to help my countrymen build a stronger and more prosperous nation.

Try looking harder, and you'll see that most people in this world aren't getting the goods under the current socioeconomic regime. The political establishment is complicit in maintaining this situation. Food is being sold, cars are running, people are drinking and roasting lambs, schools are full, people are laughing and feeling secure.



Advancing in what way? The rich-poor divide is increasing (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0614/p01s03-usec.html?s=itm), so economically we're going backwards I'd say.

We are getting fatter, technology is progressing, life standard is increasing, buildings are being built and most importantly, our expected age is rising all the time.


By what standard?

? By mine

[PassTheBeer]

I mean my response to what you wrote after, because as I replied, you did'nt actually grasp what I was saying or make a real response to what I was saying.


I'm having trouble finding that, can you please quote it ?
Thank you Mr. Olympia.

[PassTheBeer]

Ok, enough for now.. Thank you for the nice conversation, I have a hunters exam coming soon and need to study. Have a nice evening proletarians, I'll drop by tomorrow

[gendoikari]

Food is being sold, cars are running, people are drinking and roasting lambs, schools are full, people are laughing and feeling secure.

In america, well your about half true. Most of the people I know are doing so but swimming in debt scrambling to make the next house payment with their two jobs.


We are getting fatter, technology is progressing, life standard is increasing, buildings are being built and most importantly, our expected age is rising all the time.

actually after the flow of wealth into the country afforded by WWII the standard of living has pretty much been flat. In fact it's decreased a little lately.


I'd like to start my own business, probably as a used equipment dealer. I'd also make spare parts like cogs and sprockets with my brother. We have some machines in our garage.. they are old but they can be used. But to sum it up, I want to succeed. I want to be able to wield economic power and to help my countrymen build a stronger and more prosperous nation.

Capitalism: you take out a loan to get the things you need to do this, and start on your own. If you succeed you can do what you want, good. your workers will be at your mercy, though. So if you want you can pay them a decent wage but you could also fall back on the artificially low market price. If you fail, your in trouble. Unless you incorporated in which case your share holders and workers are in trouble.

Socialism: you get the things you need from the local commune, who depending on the branch of socialism that wins will either tell you how many they need or will simply tell you to be fair and play nice. If it's a planned economy socialist system, you probably won't fail unless your lazy in which case you will be replaced. If you succeed you can still make a decent living but your workers will too as all "profit" will be divvied based on merit and contributions you know, because you aren't taking a risk anymore, all your doing is managing. and while it won't be easy or maybe even impossible to be rich you and everyone that's willing to work hard will earn a decent wage. If it's not a planned economy and you still fail. Big whoop it wasn't you that bought the machines your free to try something else and the machines will go to someone that can utilize them to an advantage.


oh and by decent wage I mean the equivalent of upper middle class. A very comfortable life indeed. But basically socialism is waste not want not.

[RGacky3]

4. If people are just, yes, socialism can work.. For example, if 30 friends are stranded on a small island. But world wide anarcho-communism ? No way
I'm not sure what you are, however I could live in a Cuban like socialist state if the living standards are decent. I just like the feeling of earning something. I'm not really motivated to work If I gain null.


No, it works the same way as democracy, you don't need people to be "just" or whatever, the same way you don't need people to be just in democracy.

Infact you diceminate power, meaning individuals being just is less important, when you have capitalism you basically require an insanely altruistic capitalist (which never happens).


3. Yes, capitalism needs to grow... If we had the technology they have on star trek where they create stuff out of nothing, I could somewhat imagine a communist world.. But its still very early for that. I advocate a capitalistic system that has anti-globalist elements. Take for example Sweden. What are the chances their economy will collapse ? Not by their fault but by the collapse that happens in the US monetary system for example. I guess returning to the gold standard could prevent a lot of problems.

Why on earth would you need technology of startred to create socialist? Capitalism REQUIRES growth, constant, thats why it does'nt work, Sweedens economy is less likely to crash than the US because its implimented some socialistic reforms.

Going back to the gold standard would created insane deflation and contract the economy to the point to where you'd essencially have the collapse of capitalism, which is inevitable anyway.

ANyway I don't think you get it, socialism is nothing more than a democratic economy and a democratic mode of production, you don't nee super technology, you don't need people to be magically just.



2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it. Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.


Actually if you invent something in Capitalism you don't profit from it, in the real world its the funders that profit, actually many inventions are made in the public sphere and passed on to the private for profit (because inventing has a bad cost-profit ratio).

Its not Capitalism that forces people to work, its life, Capitalism just organizes in a way where the profits benefit a few, and exploit the rest.

Freedom IS a basic human right, which is why it should be extended to everyone and not just a rich elite.

If your against big corporatiosn then your against Capitalism, because thats what you get when you have capitalism, the very nature of capitalism concentrates wealth in a few, more and more.

BTW, large corporations control the vast vast vast majority of the economy.


1. later about this

By all means, but make sure you read my posts carefully and think about what I'm saying before you respond, because it seams like your not doing that.

[Bardo]

I find an acorn, its mine now. But I'm guessing I don't qute undertand that part of communism yet. Lets say I have a ice cream machine, I think its my right to use it how I want, or exchange the ice cream for other assets. I'm not really fond of forced sharing. However, I do support charity.

That's fine, make your ice cream. However, if you want to hire someone to work your ice cream machine for you,the person working the machine will be entitled to the ice cream they produced while they were using it.

This isn't forced sharing, this is giving the producer what is theirs.

[Obs]

We are getting fatter, technology is progressing, life standard is increasing, buildings are being built and most importantly, our expected age is rising all the time.
Speak for yourself.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_GtCPIIJiG2JCuzFCPEbcgDfXW8-sl6eQ3GIctm2c5tNmLb3eEg

[Bardo]

Get that baby some charity, stat!

[gendoikari]

Speak for yourself.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_GtCPIIJiG2JCuzFCPEbcgDfXW8-sl6eQ3GIctm2c5tNmLb3eEg

God that kid creeps me out.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

by leftist I mean far left..

How exactly are you going to make millions of people join "the revolution" if those asking for a debate get banned, or are am not welcome here etc. Begin growing your red worker army with me, I'm your average right-wing Joe. I drive a yellow Volvo and work in the commerce department of a firm that sells agricultural parts.

I couldn't remember my account so I tried to make a new one.. This caught my eye:

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!

Yeah, this just shines with style and intellectualism. I mean seriously, the first association were a bunch of punks with red mohawks writing this in the basement. No style at all.. I mean seriously, here is what Von Thronsthal would say:

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/299630/Von+Thronstahl.jpg

and yes, you need style..

Here is what I support:

Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values
Green politics
Intelectualism
Pan-europeanism
Strict immigration laws
Conscription (and light militarism)
Palestine state
Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
Don't ask don't tell
Anti-communism

Lets keep it civil.
I'm not a fascist, nazi, national-bolshevik, monarchist, national-syndicalist bla bla bla , so admin, please don't satisfy your urge to ban me, I've heard the admins here are easy on the trigger.

game on (I'm still guessing I will be banned or mocked.. please surprise me)

Okay, I can't resist responding to OPs like this. I just typed a long reply, then lost it.

First, socialism starts out as a systemic critique of capitalism. Capitalism today obviously is in severe crisis. This is something which affects the vast majority of people on the planet.For the past 30 years living standards for the working classes have diminished, as the power of a tiny elite has grown. Why is this?

Naomi Klein in the Shock Doctrine brilliantly describes how neo-liberalism, that is privatisation, and the concentration of ownership has been shifted to capital worldwide, have been imposed against the will of the vaast majority of people. Crisis have been deliberately engineered to do this. We can see this happening with the recent (and highly bogus) budget debate.

Why does capitalism need to do this?

CDeclining rate of profitability due to a change in the organic composition of capital.Under consumption. Ultimately an over accumulation of capital.To undersatand we have leave Naomi Klein and go to David Harvey and then Uncle Karl.

In a nutshell the productive capacity of humanity has expanded beyond the limits where capitalists can make an adequate profit off our labor.An adequate level of profit can only be maintained though squeezing and squeezing and sqeezing. So destruction of public service worker unions, mass lay offs of teachers, famine in Somalia, "austerity" in Europe, squeezing Greece til it bleeds (literally) world wide decline in food security, wars are the results.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

by leftist I mean far left..

How exactly are you going to make millions of people join "the revolution" if those asking for a debate get banned, or are am not welcome here etc. Begin growing your red worker army with me, I'm your average right-wing Joe. I drive a yellow Volvo and work in the commerce department of a firm that sells agricultural parts.

I couldn't remember my account so I tried to make a new one.. This caught my eye:

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!

Yeah, this just shines with style and intellectualism. I mean seriously, the first association were a bunch of punks with red mohawks writing this in the basement. No style at all.. I mean seriously, here is what Von Thronsthal would say:

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/299630/Von+Thronstahl.jpg

and yes, you need style..

Here is what I support:

Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values
Green politics
Intelectualism
Pan-europeanism
Strict immigration laws
Conscription (and light militarism)
Palestine state
Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
Don't ask don't tell
Anti-communism

Lets keep it civil.
I'm not a fascist, nazi, national-bolshevik, monarchist, national-syndicalist bla bla bla , so admin, please don't satisfy your urge to ban me, I've heard the admins here are easy on the trigger.

game on (I'm still guessing I will be banned or mocked.. please surprise me)

Okay, I can't resist responding to OPs like this. I just typed a long reply, then lost it.

First, socialism starts out as a systemic critique of capitalism. Capitalism today obviously is in severe crisis. This is something which affects the vast majority of people on the planet.For the past 30 years living standards for the working classes have diminished, as the power of a tiny elite has grown. Why is this?

Naomi Klein in the Shock Doctrine brilliantly describes how neo-liberalism, that is privatisation, and the concentration of ownership has been shifted to capital worldwide, have been imposed against the will of the vaast majority of people. Crisis have been deliberately engineered to do this. We can see this happening with the recent (and highly bogus) budget debate.

Why does capitalism need to do this?

Declining rate of profitability due to a change in the organic composition of capital.Under consumption. Ultimately an over accumulation of capital.To understand we have leave Naomi Klein and go to David Harvey and then Uncle Karl.

In a nutshell the productive capacity of humanity has expanded beyond the limits where capitalists can make an adequate profit off our labor.An adequate level of profit can only be maintained though squeezing and squeezing and squeezing. So destruction of public service worker unions, mass lay offs of teachers, famine in Somalia, "austerity" in Europe, squeezing Greece til it bleeds (literally) world wide decline in food security, wars are the results.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Sin, aka. greed, selfishness, lust for power, sloth

People exhibit those traits for (in some cases well-understood) material reasons, which can be analysed and worked around.


Children are often more pure than adults. I'm not sure where you're getting at.

Pure? What does that mean in this context? Children can and have done terrible things, or they can be as sweet as a nut. Much like adults.


I would say they want more power over their peers.

Why? And why should we go along with it, whatever the answer?


Its a basic human right. I find an acorn, its mine now. But I'm guessing I don't qute undertand that part of communism yet.

What you describe would fall under "personal possessions". This includes everything you use every day that is particular to you, such as your clothes, your home and its contents.


Lets say I have a ice cream machine, I think its my right to use it how I want, or exchange the ice cream for other assets. I'm not really fond of forced sharing. However, I do support charity.

The thing is, somebody else made that machine, and under a capitalist system the worker who made that machine has no input with regards to the whole process. The worker is forced by her boss to give the fruits of her labour to whoever the boss decides. How about that for forced sharing?


I want to be able to wield economic power and to help my countrymen build a stronger and more prosperous nation.

You say you want to "wield economic power", but since you're here talking to us I'm going to assume that you don't wield all that much at the moment, because otherwise you would have far more interesting things to do. Tell me, in which scenario do you think you would likely end up with more power: the egalitarian society that gives everyone a voice, enthrones reason and promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest amount of people, or the situation we have at the moment, with a professional political class whose overriding interest is remaining in office, an economic system that encourages plunder and rewards incompetence, and where people are increasingly immiserated and our common environment trashed?


Food is being sold, cars are running, people are drinking and roasting lambs, schools are full, people are laughing and feeling secure.

It's clear you lead a very sheltered existence. For a start, we're in a major economic depression with a gloomy outlook, we're still pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and stripping the oceans bare with trawlers, and all the while we're in the shocking and absurd situation where people are going hungry despite there being plenty of food.


We are getting fatter, technology is progressing, life standard is increasing, buildings are being built and most importantly, our expected age is rising all the time.

All of which benefits only a minority of the planet's population. A planet we have little chance of leaving any time soon.


By mine

OK, by my standards it isn't radical enough. Now what?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Fiscal conservatism

At the risk of sounding like a Keynesian, which I'm not, govt policy can be effective in redistributing wealth upwards or downwards. In recent decades the govt has been ding an excellent job of redistributing wealth upwards. Look up CEO salaries. Look up how much wealth the top 1% of the US population controls.

Traditional values
Social conservatism
Family values
What does this mean though? More families are being destroyed by Bank of America and the hedge fund bozos than by allowing homosexuals to be treated like humans or openly join the US military.


Green politics
Carbon "cap n' trade" policies don't work. Only democratic control over the economy can save the environment.

Intelectualism
Market driven forces have been responsible for the Massive "dumbing down" that's occurred in the US. People are naturally intellectually hungry. Given have a chance I think most people would prefer engaging intellectual entertainment over our "200 channels of shit to chose from" to paraphrase Bruce Springsteen. "The Borgia's" and The Game of Thrones" can out poll Donald Trump or To Marry a Bachelor , if people were given have a chance, any day.

Pan-europeanism
The current crisis shows the European integration can't occur under capitalism.

Strict immigration laws
Why? Though out the 90s there was a large increase in Hispanic immigration to the US. This can be directly traced to US policies which destroyed the economies of many Latin American Countries. Also, 7 billion people in the world and European conservatives are complaining about a demographic crisis? The contradictions and insanity of capitalism.

Conscription (and light militarism)

Why? Socialists see wars as a part of imperialism, to benefit the ruling classes. How is my (or anybodies) life made better by NATO war in Afghanistan, war in Iraq, Libya and many other places? The level of PTSD in the US and UK military is huge and is regarded by people who work with vets as a "ticking time bomb".

Palestine state
Agree. The experience of the past 60 years show it can't happen under capitalism.

Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
Richard Seymour shows how "benevolent interventionism" is a myth. Intervention has never made things better.

Don't ask don't tell
Google "Calpernia Adams" and then check out the movie about her life, "Soldier's Girl". DADT has made many people's lives a nightmare.

Anti-communism

That was over 20 years ago. Now the popular meme is "anti-Islamism" Same thing though

[gendoikari]

The thing is, somebody else made that machine, and under a capitalist system the worker who made that machine has no input with regards to the whole process. The worker is forced by her boss to give the fruits of her labour to whoever the boss decides. How about that for forced sharing?

Careful you might start making sense to right wingers.... and that's kinda like dividing by zero.


At the risk of sounding like a Keynesian, which I'm not, govt policy can be effective in redistributing wealth upwards or downwards. In recent decades the govt has been ding an excellent job of redistributing wealth upwards. Look up CEO salaries. Look up how much wealth the top 1% of the US population controls.

I'll save you the trouble in 2006 that number was 50%, and it's gone up from there.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sin, aka. greed, selfishness, lust for power, sloth. So these things are inherent in your view? These are relative moral judgments, not physical and universal things. Is hording food during a famine selfish or self-preservation as opposed to someone with more food than they can eat throwing it away rather than giving it to someone who asks and is starving. You'd probably say that workers striking so they can actually feed their families is greedy... is is the same as the greed of the employer who has increased their profits but refuses to pay more in wages so they can further increase their profits?


Children are often more pure than adults. I'm not sure where you're getting at.I think you are mistaking purity with lack of acquired experience. What is "pure" about children? Young children are actually much more selfish than adults and older children because they can not yet provide for themselves and are dependent on others. Learning not to grab everything and put it in your mouth or learning empathy are what would be considered the process of maturation by most people.

But again it comes back to the question of moral judgements: are babies greedy when they cry for food or milk? Or is that merely the self-preservation instinct - do babies every cry for a second bottle of milk to horde... or are content and "unselfish" once their immediate needs have been met.

Its a basic human right. I find an acorn, its mine now. But I'm guessing I don't qute undertand that part of communism yet. Lets say I have a ice cream machine, I think its my right to use it how I want, or exchange the ice cream for other assets. I'm not really fond of forced sharing. However, I do support charity.
Food is being sold, cars are running, people are drinking and roasting lambs, schools are full, people are laughing and feeling secure. In the last week a cop shot a homeless person a block away from where I was and a couple of blocks from my appartment. The BART train I use to commute broke down for an hour.

Interesting you bring up food when there have been two widespread uprisings in the last couple of years due to price fluxuations caused by trading in staple food commodities. In the first wave in 2007 there were riots in a number of countries - during the second, there were a couple of North African regimes overthrown.

Interesting that you mention schools when in my state tuition has more than doubled for public universities over the last 10 years and the amount of student debt in the US has reached epidemic proportions... and soon students will have to pay increased interest rates while going to school.


We are getting fatter, technology is progressing, life standard is increasing, buildings are being built and most importantly, our expected age is rising all the time.In ranking countries by life expectancy, the US is number 36... given that it is still the biggest economy and the champion of neoliberalism, I think a rational view would be that health care systems, not capitalism are a bigger part of this. In fact most of the advances in people's personal lives and living standards are not due to capitalism (which actually caused huge social problems during early industrialization and decreased life expectancy leading to reforms such as anti-child labor laws) but due to RESISTANCE AND REFORMS on the profit-system. So it's more correct to say that people are living longer or have some stability (though from the view of people in the US, this is very debatable irregardless of your political allegiance) DESPITE the system, not because of it.

[Viet Minh]

Here is what I support:


Fiscal conservatism
Agreed, the first major cuts need to be the Government, then military, then police

Social conservatism
You'll need to be more specific..

Family values
Every family, or just yours?

Traditional values
How traditional exactly? Are we talking 1960's or 1860's?

Green politics
So would you agree to imposing limits or taxes on environmentally unfriendly businesses?

Intelectualism
You spelt that wrong

Pan-europeanism
Why pan europeanism, why not pan Worldism?

Strict immigration laws
Except for Europeans right?

Conscription (and light militarism)
Except for out of the closet homosexuals though right? :rolleyes:

Palestine state
At the moment there is no unified Palestinian state

Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
..oil, uranium..?

Don't ask don't tell
Don't join a clearly homophobic institution

Anti-communism
And you were doing so well..!

[Revolution starts with U]

Agreed, the first major cuts need to be the Government, then military, then police
Personally, I would say the last two first, then the first last. I dont have nearly half a problem with feeding old and poor people as I do blowing up brown and yellow people.


How traditional exactly? Are we talking 1960's or 1860's?

Im talking like 2650s values... BCE that is.


..oil, uranium..?
Dude, I get oil, I get richer. That's the best humanitarian cause ever! :D

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Question: Care to turn me into a Leftist?
Answer: No.

Next.

[CHE with an AK]

In the same way that right-libertarians rethink their ‘no government values’ when their house is on fire, and tea partiers rethink their views on social security when they become disabled …. capitalists usually rethink their ‘free market values’ when they find out their job has been sent to China.

[Red And Black Sabot]

I bet you right wingers are really shit in bed,
You're probably shit at oral, you probably don't give head,
And to maintain some sense of dignity,
You never try anything but missionary.
Well oh how boring, yeah oh how boring,
When you fuck your ugly wife she's probably snoring,
And oh how boring, yeah oh how boring,
When you fuck your ugly wife she's probably snoring.

You've got all the charisma of a garden snail,
And you get your sex tips from the daily mail,
Well we don't give a fuck about what you say,
Cause we know that anarchists make better lover anyway

I wouldn't like to fuck a Stalinist,
They'd probably tie me up by my ankles and my wrists,
Cause they like authority, they love authority,
The thought of dictatorships makes them horny,
And you State-Communists are just dominators,
Dishing out punishment on your fellow workers,
Well that kind of love is just not what I wish cause I'd rather feel the sweet tender touch of an anarchist

My Dad says I'm a bastard anarchist, "You should vote for the tories you daft piece of shit", but Daddy, you just don't realize how good it feels to look in their eyes and say;
Fuck you and your system, fuck you and your system, there is nothing that I'd rather do than resist them
Fuck you and your system, fuck you and your system, there is nothing that I'd rather do than resist them

Cause I get kicks seeing cops hit with rocks, that might kinda scare you, it might be a shock, but if you're demanding the state to fall well peaceful protest will do fuck all.
This government divides us constantly on grounds of class, race and sexuality. It's all indoctrinated by men in robes, and all we're left with is sexist, racist homophobes.
But if we did some research, I'm sure it would be found, that homophobes aren't too well endowed. And it's so pathetic you pathetic bunch of pricks, you're taking out your anger cause you've got small dicks.

Well love is all that's needed in this world, it doesn't matter if you like boys or girls,
Yeah love is all that's needed in this shitty world, it doesn't matter if you like boys or girls.
Masochistic attitudes just aren't for me, but neither is being overtly P.C, so apologies if you're offended by the lyrics of this song but there's bigger things to worry about so move the fuck on. Now, I'll finish this if I may - with a recollection of something that happened today;

I was on the train this morning, when a pretty girl smiled at me, yet I wasn't attracted to her sexually. She had a posh accent, she was wearing a fur coat, she had a big gold necklace clasped around her throat. Well I knew she was a posh kid from the rich part of town, and that's the kind of girl on who'd I'd never go down.
So save your kisses my love, for the others, cause in my opinion anarchists make better lovers...

[Thirsty Crow]

How can one wish to wield economic power and still cling to Christian morals? Why do you think that the law of love is antiquated and how does all this cut throat striving for domination square with ethics of compassion?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Good gods, did you write that yourself? If so you've got more lyrical talent than I...

[Kamos]

Guys... you all forgot something very important...

http://www.indiastudychannel.com/pictures/gallery/warriorkhan__cute-animals-7.jpg

[Viet Minh]

In the same way that right-libertarians rethink their ‘no government values’ when their house is on fire

I don't know if I fully understood what you were saying there, but I had an image of some guy shouting his credit card details through the phone to the fire dept.

[CommieTroll]

I'm conservative, to say at least. I think communism could only work if there was no sin. People are not fair , they want power

Taking that you believe in mortal sin leads me to the conclusion that you are religious, highly religious? The concept of sin (like the concept of a supreme being) is pathetic, what? Punish humans for being human?

[CommieTroll]

I bet you right wingers are really shit in bed,
You're probably shit at oral, you probably don't give head,
And to maintain some sense of dignity,
You never try anything but missionary.
Well oh how boring, yeah oh how boring,
When you fuck your ugly wife she's probably snoring,
And oh how boring, yeah oh how boring,
When you fuck your ugly wife she's probably snoring.

You've got all the charisma of a garden snail,
And you get your sex tips from the daily mail,
Well we don't give a fuck about what you say,
Cause we know that anarchists make better lover anyway

I wouldn't like to fuck a Stalinist,
They'd probably tie me up by my ankles and my wrists,
Cause they like authority, they love authority,
The thought of dictatorships makes them horny,
And you State-Communists are just dominators,
Dishing out punishment on your fellow workers,
Well that kind of love is just not what I wish cause I'd rather feel the sweet tender touch of an anarchist

My Dad says I'm a bastard anarchist, "You should vote for the tories you daft piece of shit", but Daddy, you just don't realize how good it feels to look in their eyes and say;
Fuck you and your system, fuck you and your system, there is nothing that I'd rather do than resist them
Fuck you and your system, fuck you and your system, there is nothing that I'd rather do than resist them

Cause I get kicks seeing cops hit with rocks, that might kinda scare you, it might be a shock, but if you're demanding the state to fall well peaceful protest will do fuck all.
This government divides us constantly on grounds of class, race and sexuality. It's all indoctrinated by men in robes, and all we're left with is sexist, racist homophobes.
But if we did some research, I'm sure it would be found, that homophobes aren't too well endowed. And it's so pathetic you pathetic bunch of pricks, you're taking out your anger cause you've got small dicks.

Well love is all that's needed in this world, it doesn't matter if you like boys or girls,
Yeah love is all that's needed in this shitty world, it doesn't matter if you like boys or girls.
Masochistic attitudes just aren't for me, but neither is being overtly P.C, so apologies if you're offended by the lyrics of this song but there's bigger things to worry about so move the fuck on. Now, I'll finish this if I may - with a recollection of something that happened today;

I was on the train this morning, when a pretty girl smiled at me, yet I wasn't attracted to her sexually. She had a posh accent, she was wearing a fur coat, she had a big gold necklace clasped around her throat. Well I knew she was a posh kid from the rich part of town, and that's the kind of girl on who'd I'd never go down.
So save your kisses my love, for the others, cause in my opinion anarchists make better lovers...

Conservatives never get anal :laugh:

[Red And Black Sabot]

Good gods, did you write that yourself? If so you've got more lyrical talent than I...


The song?
No. That gem is by The Casual Terrorist.
It's an anarchist folk-punk singer song writer.

[Blackburn]

Freedom of expression.. sometimes it really does suck, right ?

Thanks for admitting that your sole purpose here is to troll.

[Rafiq]

I'm conservative, to say at least. I think communism could only work if there was no sin. People are not fair , they want power

So, are you a person? Do you want fucking power then?

People are nothing. People are what their surroundings make out of them.

[Rafiq]

I'm guessing you were among the rioters and got yourself a nice capitalistic 40" LCD.

You obviously need more manpower, I'm sure the tea party members pack more firepower.

By being rude you make yourself look stoopid, I recommend you listen to Von Thronstahl and get some more of that style.

Von Thronstahl is a fascist prick and doesn't even try to hide it.

Televisions are not capitalistic, and even if they were I don't care, I will take TV's, phones, whatever, those are products of human advancement (Yes, made possible by capitalism) and, like houses and agriculture, will still exist under socialism.

[Rafiq]

4. If people are just, yes, socialism can work.. For example, if 30 friends are stranded on a small island. But world wide anarcho-communism ? No way
I'm not sure what you are, however I could live in a Cuban like socialist state if the living standards are decent. I just like the feeling of earning something. I'm not really motivated to work If I gain null.

World wide anarcho communism could not exist, not at least now. Perhaps when humans are more intelligent such things could be made possible. However, global communism is probably possible. Either way, solutions to capitalism must and will be found.

Cuba is a small island, under an embargo and sabatoge by the world's largest superpower. If you expect better living standards than the U.S. there, socialism or no socialism you're fooling yourself.


3. Yes, capitalism needs to grow... If we had the technology they have on star trek where they create stuff out of nothing, I could somewhat imagine a communist world.. But its still very early for that. I advocate a capitalistic system that has anti-globalist elements. Take for example Sweden. What are the chances their economy will collapse ? Not by their fault but by the collapse that happens in the US monetary system for example. I guess returning to the gold standard could prevent a lot of problems.

It's the opposite, if commodities could be produced without the exploitation of labor, that would be a perfect solution to communism.


2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it. Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.


If economic freedom exists, it is far from the capitalist mode of production.

If people invent things they will be rewarded no doubt, with benefits and such (not everyone is equal under communism).

Actually, big buisness never invents anything good, that is not how capitalists get money. Capitalists hire intelligent people to invent things for them. Kind of like how microsoft hired bungie, or how Apple's stuff is invented by a bunch of geeks who make not as much profit.

[Rafiq]

Freedom of expression.. sometimes it really does suck, right ?

Not really, it's just we honestly don't care about what you (a member of the bourgeoisie) has to say, because we (Members of the proletariat) don't plan on winning 'the hearts and minds' of the slave owners, instead we plan to burn them/purge them.

[Agent Equality]

PassTheBeer If you really want to be turned into a leftist(as your thread suggests) then you need to come into these forums with an open mind and not be so closed off. You must be able to look at your own views and question them, views on socio-economic outlooks as well as religious ones. Justifying everything you think by faith is, believe it or not, pretty much useless.

[Bandito]

We are not here either to preach or to feed the trolls.

We are here to discuss among ourselves.

If you were genuinely interested in what we have to say, you'd probably read through the discussions, and possibly engage in certain topics you don't agree on.

One thing is certain though, and that is that you are not serious about your political emancipation.

[Nox]

Capitalism works fine for me and the people I know. There are ups and downs but society is advancing all the time. Communism/anarchism is just too much of a radical change

That's because you live in a rich country you selfish bourgeois scum!

You don't give a shit about the 90% of the world's population who are poorer than you.

[Zav]

Careful you might start making sense to right wingers.... and that's kinda like dividing by zero.
Perhaps he's Jesus.

[PassTheBeer]

Speak for yourself.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_GtCPIIJiG2JCuzFCPEbcgDfXW8-sl6eQ3GIctm2c5tNmLb3eEg

"Africa is not poor. Africa is just poorly managed"

I agree with that statement.. Africa has massive economic potential, however they really suck at managing. I'm guessing the revleft crew will point their fingers at big business neglecting draughts and tribal conflicts.
Maybe the shouldn't have kicked out he Europeans (just sayin) before developing a good economic plan.

Look at UAE...

http://famousbuildings.net/wallpapers/burj-dubai-lights-wallpaper.jpg

Now thats capitalism !

[Nox]

Maybe the shouldn't have kicked out he Europeans (just sayin) before developing a good economic plan.

What's your Stormfront username? ;)

[PassTheBeer]

Agreed, the first major cuts need to be the Government, then military, then police

Fine

You'll need to be more specific..

Every family, or just yours? How traditional exactly? Are we talking 1960's or 1860's?
I'm not sure If this is actually valid for debate, most of it represent my personal belifs that are not-so-important in politics I guess. I'd like my child to recive religious education, I'd like him to be conscripted, I'd like my wife to be a homemaker. I'd curb gay rights and racial benifits (affrmative action), and similar rules mandated from the EU, like that there needs to be a certain amount of women and minorities in goverment institutions.I'd castrate peodphiles and ban abortions.

So would you agree to imposing limits or taxes on environmentally unfriendly businesses? If they are polluters, they should be forced to pay fines and develop a more eco-friendly strategy. I like nature :D..besides, alternative energy eleminiates the need for petrol, makes our enviroment cleaner thus reducing medical expenses.

You spelt that wrong Thank you spell-cheka

Why pan europeanism, why not pan Worldism? I'd like the world to unite in blocks. Europe (Western world maybe), Africa, Middle east, Latin America etc.Not a chance for pan-worldism, I don't like the idea of that. We are too different, economicly , culturely etc.

Except for Europeans right? Maybe :rolleyes:

Except for out of the closet homosexuals though right? :rolleyes:

Gays can join the military if they keep that their little secret.

At the moment there is no unified Palestinian state Too bad

..oil, uranium..? To deliver grain and water to the needy.. Look at Somalia.. I'd have no problem if NATO would invade it and stabilise it. Train a somali army, police, make hospitals, and install a stable government

And you were doing so well..!

I like you, you made me giggle. Don't go all spell-cheka on me, my spellchecker isn't working and I'm rushing a bit.

[Tomhet]

Why should women "be a homemaker" I.E??? What if they don't want to do that? are you going to force them to go along with your plans?? One of the many things I disagree with that post on...

[PassTheBeer]

What's your Stormfront username? ;)

Not funny ! (:laugh:)
But I mean seriusly, most of the conflicts erupted after the decolonisation. Maybe the UN should have influenced Africa more to guide it to prosperity. its still possible.. they should unite

[PassTheBeer]

Why should women "be a homemaker" I.E??? What if they don't want to do that? are you going to force them to go along with your plans?? One of the many things I disagree with that post on...

Then I would hit her harder !

... :sleep:

Of course I wont force her. I'd just prefer that. She can do what she wants, shes a free human being.

[PassTheBeer]

Von Thronstahl is a fascist prick and doesn't even try to hide it.

Televisions are not capitalistic, and even if they were I don't care, I will take TV's, phones, whatever, those are products of human advancement (Yes, made possible by capitalism) and, like houses and agriculture, will still exist under socialism.

Instead of looting shops, you should join the somali navy. I've heard Sony is having regular shipments passing the horn of africa. Ahoy sailor !

[PassTheBeer]

Personally, I would say the last two first, then the first last. I dont have nearly half a problem with feeding old and poor people as I do blowing up brown and yellow people.

Im talking like 2650s values... BCE that is.

Dude, I get oil, I get richer. That's the best humanitarian cause ever! :D

No blood for oil ! Go alternative !

[RGacky3]

Considering you still hav'nt responded to any my points, I'll take it that you have no response.

[PassTheBeer]

I bet you right wingers are really shit in bed,
You're probably shit at oral, you probably don't give head,
And to maintain some sense of dignity,
You never try anything but missionary.
Well oh how boring, yeah oh how boring,
When you fuck your ugly wife she's probably snoring,
And oh how boring, yeah oh how boring,
When you fuck your ugly wife she's probably snoring.

You've got all the charisma of a garden snail,
And you get your sex tips from the daily mail,
Well we don't give a fuck about what you say,
Cause we know that anarchists make better lover anyway

I wouldn't like to fuck a Stalinist,
They'd probably tie me up by my ankles and my wrists,
Cause they like authority, they love authority,
The thought of dictatorships makes them horny,
And you State-Communists are just dominators,
Dishing out punishment on your fellow workers,
Well that kind of love is just not what I wish cause I'd rather feel the sweet tender touch of an anarchist

My Dad says I'm a bastard anarchist, "You should vote for the tories you daft piece of shit", but Daddy, you just don't realize how good it feels to look in their eyes and say;
Fuck you and your system, fuck you and your system, there is nothing that I'd rather do than resist them
Fuck you and your system, fuck you and your system, there is nothing that I'd rather do than resist them

Cause I get kicks seeing cops hit with rocks, that might kinda scare you, it might be a shock, but if you're demanding the state to fall well peaceful protest will do fuck all.
This government divides us constantly on grounds of class, race and sexuality. It's all indoctrinated by men in robes, and all we're left with is sexist, racist homophobes.
But if we did some research, I'm sure it would be found, that homophobes aren't too well endowed. And it's so pathetic you pathetic bunch of pricks, you're taking out your anger cause you've got small dicks.

Well love is all that's needed in this world, it doesn't matter if you like boys or girls,
Yeah love is all that's needed in this shitty world, it doesn't matter if you like boys or girls.
Masochistic attitudes just aren't for me, but neither is being overtly P.C, so apologies if you're offended by the lyrics of this song but there's bigger things to worry about so move the fuck on. Now, I'll finish this if I may - with a recollection of something that happened today;

I was on the train this morning, when a pretty girl smiled at me, yet I wasn't attracted to her sexually. She had a posh accent, she was wearing a fur coat, she had a big gold necklace clasped around her throat. Well I knew she was a posh kid from the rich part of town, and that's the kind of girl on who'd I'd never go down.
So save your kisses my love, for the others, cause in my opinion anarchists make better lovers...

I actually tricked a red girl into beliving I was on the red side. They are quite easy to bring to bed..interesting. Good times indeed.. :rolleyes:

[PassTheBeer]

Considering you still hav'nt responded to any my points, I'll take it that you have no response.

Please be patient, I'm alone against the red army. Give me some time

[PassTheBeer]

Taking that you believe in mortal sin leads me to the conclusion that you are religious, highly religious? The concept of sin (like the concept of a supreme being) is pathetic, what? Punish humans for being human?

How are you imagining a world where there is no currency.. In other words, there is no proof you actully deserved a commodity ? People will cheat and lie... big time.. If they were sinless, yes, then communism would work becouse everyone would do their task.

[Kamos]

How are you imagining a world where there is no currency.. In other words, there is no proof you actully deserved a commodity ? People will cheat and lie... big time..

No, they won't, because they won't have any reason to.

[PassTheBeer]

[QUOTE=ÑóẊîöʼn;2207334]People exhibit those traits for (in some cases well-understood) material reasons, which can be analysed and worked around.

I'm under the impression that most of you here think that one we tranist into worldwide communisim, crime will suddenly dissapear. Fat chance


Pure? What does that mean in this context? Children can and have done terrible things, or they can be as sweet as a nut. Much like adults. -

Why? And why should we go along with it, whatever the answer? I've read somewhere that people like the feeling of achiving something (getting rich)

What you describe would fall under "personal possessions". This includes everything you use every day that is particular to you, such as your clothes, your home and its contents. Thank you

The thing is, somebody else made that machine, and under a capitalist system the worker who made that machine has no input with regards to the whole process. The worker is forced by her boss to give the fruits of her labour to whoever the boss decides. How about that for forced sharing?



You say you want to "wield economic power", but since you're here talking to us I'm going to assume that you don't wield all that much at the moment, because otherwise you would have far more interesting things to do.

Correct

Tell me, in which scenario do you think you would likely end up with more power: the egalitarian society that gives everyone a voice, enthrones reason and promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest amount of people, or the situation we have at the moment, with a professional political class whose overriding interest is remaining in office, an economic system that encourages plunder and rewards incompetence, and where people are increasingly immiserated and our common environment trashed? Second option


It's clear you lead a very sheltered existence. For a start, we're in a major economic depression with a gloomy outlook, we're still pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and stripping the oceans bare with trawlers, and all the while we're in the shocking and absurd situation where people are going hungry despite there being plenty of food. I'm not sure what you mean with sheltered. like, having a good life or something ? Again, I'm no one special.. I live in a apartment, I enjoy hiking, and I pay my rent. I do accomulate enough capital to go drinking with my friends here and then without jeoprdizing my financial situation.When I finish college I am expecting a better job and a better salary

All of which benefits only a minority of the planet's population. A planet we have little chance of leaving any time soon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India

As of 2009, about 300 million people—equivalent to the entire population of the United States—have escaped extreme poverty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India#cite_note-5) The fruits of liberalisation reached their peak in 2007, when India recorded its highest GDP growth rate of 9%.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India#cite_note-6) With this, India became the second fastest growing major economy in the world, next only to China.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India#cite_note-astaire-7) An Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_Economic_Co-operation_and_Development) (OECD) report states that the average growth rate 7.5% will double the average income in a decade, and more reforms would speed up the pace.

OK, by my standards it isn't radical enough. Now what?

Conflict of ideas

[PassTheBeer]

No, they won't, because they won't have any reason to.

Why should they work then ? What would be the motivation if they can just go and take a new BMW. Why would they clean fish at the market if the world is at their disposal. And waht about the pockets of resistance ? You thinik terrorists, serial killers, hardline capitalists, and other pesky troublemakers will just dissapear ? We are not the smurfs, people suck, we can't work together !

[gendoikari]

How are you imagining a world where there is no currency.. In other words, there is no proof you actully deserved a commodity ? People will cheat and lie... big time.. If they were sinless, yes, then communism would work becouse everyone would do their task.

the currencyless world comes after the automisation of the workforce I.E. you don't need to work, you just go to a " store" pick up what you want and walk out. At that point all the jobs that can't be done with robots will be professions people will still do without any extra incentive.

[Nox]

Not funny ! (:laugh:)
But I mean seriusly, most of the conflicts erupted after the decolonisation. Maybe the UN should have influenced Africa more to guide it to prosperity. its still possible.. they should unite

You're implying that the supposed 'superiority' of Europeans who left Africa is why Africa is in a bad state today.

In fact, it was the European colonialisation in the first place that caused all the problems we see in Africa today.

[Kamos]

Why should they work then ? What would be the motivation if they can just go and take a new BMW. Why would they clean fish at the market if the world is at their disposal.

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat."
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."


And waht about the pockets of resistance ? You thinik terrorists, serial killers, hardline capitalists, and other pesky troublemakers will just dissapear ? We are not the smurfs, people suck, we can't work together !

Hardline capitalists and other pesky troublemakers will just disappear, yes. Mentally ill criminals will not, but that's not a question of the economic system.

[PassTheBeer]

We are not here either to preach or to feed the trolls.

We are here to discuss among ourselves.

If you were genuinely interested in what we have to say, you'd probably read through the discussions, and possibly engage in certain topics you don't agree on.

One thing is certain though, and that is that you are not serious about your political emancipation.

I'm not honestly expecting to get converted, I just want you to open some new doors for me. How can I know if my belifs are right if there is no one to dissprove them ? If you manage to convince me to follow other ways, good, I'm thankful, if not, I will just be more sure in my belifs. Simple as that.

[PassTheBeer]

You're implying that the supposed 'superiority' of Europeans who left Africa is why Africa is in a bad state today.

In fact, it was the European colonialisation in the first place that caused all the problems we see in Africa today.

I don't belive in racial supremacism.
I think if Europe didn't colonise Africa, they would still be in the stone age. But seriusly now, someone should teach them commerce.

[gendoikari]

I'm not honestly expecting to get converted, I just want you to open some new doors for me. How can I know if my belifs are right if there is no one to dissprove them ? If you manage to convince me to follow other ways, good, I'm thankful, if not, I will just be more sure in my belifs. Simple as that.

Seeing as you consistently ignore the posts with the most real conent I'm just gunna go ahead and label you a stormfront troll.

[RGacky3]

Please be patient, I'm alone against the red army. Give me some time

Ignore the posts that are pointless and answer posts like mine that are making real arguments. If you want to be taken seriously (which some capitalists on this forum are), you have to debate seriously.

[Nox]

I don't belive in racial supremacism.
I think if Europe didn't colonise Africa, they would still be in the stone age. But seriusly now, someone should teach them commerce.

Why do you think that?

[gendoikari]

Particularily respond to this:


there are two major flaws with capitalism in the way it is practice. When your selling labor it is the guy BUYING your labor that has leverage because of a flooded market for labor, this is inherent in the world. and when you buy an ITEM it is the seller that has leverage. That guy that has the leverage is the same one everytime, it's the capitalists. and under capitalism where exploitation via externalities is rampant since no one has leverage over that guy he has pretty much free reign and also meets the qualifications for a sociopath.

[PassTheBeer]

Particularily respond to this:

I didn't quite understand it.. I remind you I'm no economist.. make it simple for me please ?

[PassTheBeer]

Why do you think that?

The Americas were in the stone age when the explorers came

[PassTheBeer]

Ignore the posts that are pointless and answer posts like mine that are making real arguments. If you want to be taken seriously (which some capitalists on this forum are), you have to debate seriously.

I shall admit some of the things you say are a little to complicated for me to understand. Can you explain or ask me things in a more user friendly way ? Please note I'm not Ron Paul whose goal is to recruit you to the capitalist army, I'm here becouse I'm looking for motives to join your cause. Please understand that

[PassTheBeer]

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat."
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

And how can you tell who is working and who is slacking ? If I can get anything without money, I'd just drive around the world and take what I want.. how will they know I'm not working ?


Hardline capitalists and other pesky troublemakers will just disappear, yes. Mentally ill criminals will not, but that's not a question of the economic system. You really think that.. realllly ? How can you make Ron Paul or mr McCain-like people all over the world join your cause ? There is 0% you will be able to make everyone happy with the establishment. Its more possible to unite everyone under Juche by eliminating the resistance.

I really think the more serious revleft users should comment on this.

[Nox]

I really think the more serious revleft users should comment on this.

Oh no he didn't!

Where's Ismail when you need him?

[Nox]

The Americas were in the stone age when the explorers came

So? They were nearly extinct after the explorers came.

[gendoikari]

I didn't quite understand it.. I remind you I'm no economist.. make it simple for me please ?

Okay. Basically there are a few problems with capitalism as it is practiced.

1. The owners of the means of production, factories, and the like. They have leverage. Basically they make the decisions. This affords them a small degree of power in both buying labor, because of the overabundance of people who need jobs (this is and always will be the case it is not simply due to the recession). So the "market" for labor is called flooded, and flooded goods decrease in value rapidly. It's like having a guy who wants to make lemonade. The markets for lemons are flooded so the lemon sellers are desperate to unload their goods, and will do so at a loss if it means they at least get to sell them. So the lemonade maker gets the lemons are half their price or less. The markets for lemonade however are fine. The seller, here does not exist in a haggling state and simply sets the price of lemonade himself. and if someone does not want to pay what he's offering them at he can simply sell his limited supply of lemonade to another individual who is. So there is a huge profit for the lemonade seller but the guy selling the lemons has taken a loss.

2. The prices economists like to state as the reason why socialism will never work, is also imaginary under capitalism as wages are set by the market to be artificially low due to the problem of overflooding. well prices on the market are also determined by demand which is determined who much people are willing to spend. Now if the guy selling the widgets only goal is to take what he can he will set that price extremely high. or at least as high as he can. so the value or price of an object is going to be on the lowest level that the average worker, whos labor market is flooded, can afford. While the capitalist who is doing relatively little reaps the rewards at both ends. Well what this does is artificially inflate an items "value" to the highest point that doesn't have people in the streets protesting. In this the capitalists aren't just skimming off the top, they are feeding the lower class the bare minimum they need to survive instead of simply skimming off the top as they should and allowing the lower class to flourish.

[RGacky3]

Ok, I'm going to redo my post in a user friendly way, beause I still have faith that you want an honest discussion, I hope thats the case. What I wrote is in quotes and I simplify it below.
4. If people are just, yes, socialism can work.. For example, if 30 friends are stranded on a small island. But world wide anarcho-communism ? No way
I'm not sure what you are, however I could live in a Cuban like socialist state if the living standards are decent. I just like the feeling of earning something. I'm not really motivated to work If I gain null.

No, it works the same way as democracy, you don't need people to be "just" or whatever, the same way you don't need people to be just in democracy.


socialism basically means eocnomic democracy, so juts like political democracy, it does not require people to be good or bad or whatever.


Infact you diceminate power, meaning individuals being just is less important, when you have capitalism you basically require an insanely altruistic capitalist (which never happens).

If people ARE naturally bad, then it makes sense that people as individuals have less power over other individuals, under capitalism, the wealthy elite and corporate elite have insane amounts of economic power over other people, which means that they can do more bad, infact it only works if they are naturally good, whereas under socialism you have economic democracy, meaning bad people have less opportunity to do bad things to other people because you have a democratic process.
3. Yes, capitalism needs to grow... If we had the technology they have on star trek where they create stuff out of nothing, I could somewhat imagine a communist world.. But its still very early for that. I advocate a capitalistic system that has anti-globalist elements. Take for example Sweden. What are the chances their economy will collapse ? Not by their fault but by the collapse that happens in the US monetary system for example. I guess returning to the gold standard could prevent a lot of problems.

Why on earth would you need technology of startred to create socialist? Capitalism REQUIRES growth, constant, thats why it does'nt work, Sweedens economy is less likely to crash than the US because its implimented some socialistic reforms.


Thats basically me saying that your claim that you need a lot of technology for socialism makes no sense at all.

And that Socialist reforms in the nordic countries are what made them strong economically.

Capitalism needs more and more growth, this is a more complicated economic concept and you may not understand it, but if you need I'll write it out simply.


Going back to the gold standard would created insane deflation and contract the economy to the point to where you'd essencially have the collapse of capitalism, which is inevitable anyway.


Having gold would limit the supply of money, less money means its worth a lot more, which means that prices would go down a lot, what that would mean is that profits would drop really quickly and companies would cut and cut and cut and cut, they would'nt be able to produce things and the economy could not grow. Look up deflation and its economic effects, point is its a disaster, not only that but gold is a commodity that is produced in different countries, making it a major problem for capitalism.


ANyway I don't think you get it, socialism is nothing more than a democratic economy and a democratic mode of production, you don't nee super technology, you don't need people to be magically just.


Already explained
2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it. Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.

Actually if you invent something in Capitalism you don't profit from it, in the real world its the funders that profit, actually many inventions are made in the public sphere and passed on to the private for profit (because inventing has a bad cost-profit ratio).


Self explanitory, when I say public sphere I mean the government. When you invet something you need funding, from banks, you need producers, you need marketers and so on, utlimarely in almost all cases the profits go to the bankers.

Also inventing does not generally get funding from the private sphere, (its a high high risk endevour), so most of it comes from the government anyway.


Its not Capitalism that forces people to work, its life, Capitalism just organizes in a way where the profits benefit a few, and exploit the rest.


Just needing good and sevices forces people to work, not capitalism, people worked before capitalism and they will after, capitalism forces people to work without benefiting from their work, thats the problem.


Freedom IS a basic human right, which is why it should be extended to everyone and not just a rich elite.


self-explanitory, socialism makes freedom a human right all can enjoy, not a for sale commodity only available for a monied few.


If your against big corporatiosn then your against Capitalism, because thats what you get when you have capitalism, the very nature of capitalism concentrates wealth in a few, more and more.


Big corporations ARE capitalism, capitalism naturally (for complex economic reasons, which I will explain if you want me to) concentrates more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands, and the end result is corporatism, like we have today.


BTW, large corporations control the vast vast vast majority of the economy.


Self explanitory


By all means, but make sure you read my posts carefully and think about what I'm saying before you respond, because it seams like your not doing that.

Self explanitory

[Jimmie Higgins]

The Americas were in the stone age when the explorers came

Below are the ruins of Palenque, a city located in what is now Mexico: 100 BC to 800 BCE. The stone-age ended for this region 2000 years before the city was founded.

http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/palenque-mex032.jpg

It's true that colonization and conquest sometimes do have an effect of spreading ways of organizing things or technology... but so too do non-colonization interactions!

The effect of "civilizing" the Americas was overthrowing their civilizations, plundering their wealth, enslaving people, and murdering countless others, and then a continuing legacy of pumping wealth out of the Americas for the enrichment of aristocrats and then merchants and eventually capitalists. I'd hardly call that a bonus for people who had their own civilizations and large urban cities at the same time as Rome.

You keep insisting that you are not a racist, but it's a bit confusing since you keep making racist arguments and statements.

[hatzel]

The Americas were in the stone age when the explorers came

Here's a quote from José de Acosta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_de_Acosta) about the Andeans, with emphasis added:


To see them use another kind of calculator, with maize kernels. In order to carry out a very difficult computation for which an able computer would require pen and paper, these Indians make use of their kernels. They place one here, three somewhere else and eight. They move one kernel here and there and the fact is that they are able to complete their computation without making the smallest mistake. As a matter of fact, they are better at practical arithmetic than we are with pen and ink. Whether this is not ingenious and whether these people are wild animals let those judge who will! What I consider as certain is that in what they undertake to do they are superior to us.Not that I necessarily consider such a little thing as the yupana to be the single greatest innovation in human history, but it's interesting that whole advanced civilisations which, in some aspects, rivaled or even surpassed the European civilisations which usurped them, can be written off so readily, not for being inherently inferior, but for being different. In fact, the European culture of the time was widely derided, particularly by the Arab neighbours, but also by the Jews and Roma living in its midst, for being utterly barbaric. An example would be a line I've often heard from the Roma: "they see rubbish outside our homes and think we're dirty, but they keep their rubbish in their kitchens." (For those who haven't figured out what that means: it's about bins. Bins in kitchens...)

It reminds me of those who claim that pre-colonial Africa was just a bunch of primitive bushmen, totally ignoring the various sub-Saharan empires, some of which the European colonialists actually had to overthrow, like the conquistadores in the Americas. It's a perfect example of totally ignoring the periphery, all too prevalent in colonialist rhetoric, and still widely held today, unfortunately.

[Nox]

Debate could strengthen your viewpoints or make you realize some errors you did not see earlier. I'm gouseeing most of you here are impressionable teenagers or students in their rebel phase.

Trust me, there are many arguments and disagreements between us Communists, we spent the majority of time bickering between ourselves rather than doing anything.

We do debate people with other views in the appropriately named 'Opposing Ideologies' section, but not with fascists/nazis. This is mainly for 2 reasons:

- Their beliefs are always fuelled by racism, and that's always what the argument boils down to.
- The owner of this forum lives in Germany and could get in legal trouble for having that sort of shit on his website.

[Viet Minh]

Every family, or just yours? How traditional exactly? Are we talking 1960's or 1860's?
I'm not sure If this is actually valid for debate, most of it represent my personal belifs that are not-so-important in politics I guess. I'd like my child to recive religious education, I'd like him to be conscripted, I'd like my wife to be a homemaker. I'd curb gay rights and racial benifits (affrmative action), and similar rules mandated from the EU, like that there needs to be a certain amount of women and minorities in goverment institutions.I'd castrate peodphiles and ban abortions.

re: religious education (though I guess you knew that!) yeah I agree, but religious education for me at a catholic school was basically christian indoctrination, if thats what you had in mind from my experience it only put me off organised religion. For me it should be a chance to learn about all religions, and atheism, and different cultures too. If a family want their child to be brought up with religious values thats the job of the family and the church, not the school.
conscription: If he wants to join the army that more than anything should be his choice, can you honestly imagine going to your teenagers funeral?
You say you want your wife to be a homemaker, she can be a homemaker if she wants to, are you saying women should only be allowed to be homemakers? I don't even know where to begin with that one if thats the case..
'Curb gay rights' - make it illegal for consenting adults to be in a relationship?
Affirmative Action - affirmative action isn't perfect perhaps, but at least its a start in allowing minorities a right to work (if you can call wage labor a right as such).
Castrate pedophiles - what about female pedophiles? Female circumcision? Or are we talking chemical castration? Why not the same treatment for rapists? Also are we talking pedophiles as in anyone who has intercourse with a child under 18 (even if they were unaware of their age) in the same category as someone who sexually molests or hurts infants? I know there's a lot of questions here, I'm not the Cheka/ Gestapo :lol: just trying to clarify a few things you've said.
Banning abortions is another issue that has been discussed at length on here, but just briefly I will say that as a man you should not seek to impose the most painful thing a woman can experience upon her simply because she has made a mistake.


So would you agree to imposing limits or taxes on environmentally unfriendly businesses? If they are polluters, they should be forced to pay fines and develop a more eco-friendly strategy. I like nature :D..besides, alternative energy eleminiates the need for petrol, makes our enviroment cleaner thus reducing medical expenses.

Clean energy is not very realistic at the moment but yeah things can be improved.


You spelt that wrong Thank you spell-cheka

:D We are watching!!


Why pan europeanism, why not pan Worldism? I'd like the world to unite in blocks. Europe (Western world maybe), Africa, Middle east, Latin America etc.Not a chance for pan-worldism, I don't like the idea of that. We are too different, economicly , culturely etc.

What part of europe are you from?I put it to you that Amsterdam and Rotterdam are too different economically and culturally, let alone Holland and Germany..


Except for Europeans right? Maybe :rolleyes:

Okay what sort of immigration restrictions are we talking about? And what about refugees fleeing from persecution?


Except for out of the closet homosexuals though right? :rolleyes:

Gays can join the military if they keep that their little secret.


TBH I don't care about the rules there, I don't think anyone should join the military right now.


..oil, uranium..? To deliver grain and water to the needy.. Look at Somalia.. I'd have no problem if NATO would invade it and stabilise it. Train a somali army, police, make hospitals, and install a stable government

One that supports the US no doubt? Unlikely, I don't think you could find enough US supporters in Somalia to organise a basketball team let alone a stable government.. NATO perhaps..
I actually used to think like that, for instance before the Iraq war I saw Kurdish people being massacred by Saddam Hussein, or Iraq invading Kuwait for oil, or Afghan women being executed etc and I wondered why a powerful country doesn't intervene to help. But the actual result of that is usually far worse.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm under the impression that most of you here think that one we tranist into worldwide communisim, crime will suddenly dissapear. Fat chance

What has that to do with the fact that people commit crimes for reasons that can be examined and dealt with?


I've read somewhere that people like the feeling of achiving something (getting rich)

One shouldn't have to get rich in order to achieve something.


Second option

The second option vastly increases your chances of ending up destitute and powerless, like a majority of the world's population.


I'm not sure what you mean with sheltered. like, having a good life or something ? Again, I'm no one special.. I live in a apartment, I enjoy hiking, and I pay my rent. I do accomulate enough capital to go drinking with my friends here and then without jeoprdizing my financial situation. When I finish college I am expecting a better job and a better salary

All of those things do make you "special", or at least privileged compare to a large portion of the rest of the world's population, who get nowhere near the amount of breaks and opportunities that you do as a relatively wealthy member of a developed country.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India

As of 2009, about 300 million people—equivalent to the entire population of the United States—have escaped extreme poverty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India#cite_note-5) The fruits of liberalisation reached their peak in 2007, when India recorded its highest GDP growth rate of 9%.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India#cite_note-6) With this, India became the second fastest growing major economy in the world, next only to China.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India#cite_note-astaire-7) An Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_Economic_Co-operation_and_Development) (OECD) report states that the average growth rate 7.5% will double the average income in a decade, and more reforms would speed up the pace.[/B][I]

Now you're confusing economic growth with increased quality of life. The wealth divide in India is still atrocious.


Conflict of ideas

Indeed, but "it's too radical" is a poor place to start criticism, because it's not substantive, just your personal opinion.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Gays can join the military if they keep that their little secret.


Honestly, who the fuck cares? If you're in a fire fight and bombs are going off, does it really matter if the guy carrying you're injured carcass once revealed to you that his penis has been in some sweet, sweet man ass? I mean seriously, it just seems ridiculous.

[Astarte]

Capitalism works fine for me and the people I know. There are ups and downs but society is advancing all the time. Communism/anarchism is just too much of a radical change

Do you know why capitalism has worked 'just fine' for you? It is because you are still riding the crest of elevated living standards the USA and Western Europe were forced to provide to their citizenry when the Soviet Union was around.

During the Cold War the Western Bloc was forced to make capitalism seem legitimate in the eyes of Western workers - hence the reformism of the post-war period. Once the Cold War ended, of course, the assault on the wage earners and pettiest of the petty bourgeoisie has been resumed.

You will see now, and over the course of the next few decades how "capitalism is progressing all the time".

[PassTheBeer]

Okay. Basically there are a few problems with capitalism as it is practiced.

1. The owners of the means of production, factories, and the like. They have leverage. Basically they make the decisions. This affords them a small degree of power in both buying labor, because of the overabundance of people who need jobs (this is and always will be the case it is not simply due to the recession). So the "market" for labor is called flooded, and flooded goods decrease in value rapidly.

I understand

It's like having a guy who wants to make lemonade. The markets for lemons are flooded so the lemon sellers are desperate to unload their goods, and will do so at a loss if it means they at least get to sell them. So the lemonade maker gets the lemons are half their price or less. The markets for lemonade however are fine. The seller, here does not exist in a haggling state and simply sets the price of lemonade himself. and if someone does not want to pay what he's offering them at he can simply sell his limited supply of lemonade to another individual who is. So there is a huge profit for the lemonade seller but the guy selling the lemons has taken a loss. Yes


Ok.. I wouldn't exactly call that a problem of capitalism. If you study to be a cashier you can except trouble finding a job and low pay, however if you become something that is required on the labour market like a doctor , structural engineer , electromechanic , manager, CNC technician etc. you can live the good life. Capitalism rewards your use to society, meaning the more wanted your profession is, you will have it easier. That sounds good. Be useful or drown in the labor market.

2. The prices economists like to state as the reason why socialism will never work, is also imaginary under capitalism as wages are set by the market to be artificially low due to the problem of overflooding (yes). well prices on the market are also determined by demand which is determined who much people are willing to spend. Now if the guy selling the widgets only goal is to take what he can he will set that price extremely high (a great business chance.. open a s shop nearby and sell for less money.. risk and hope you earn) or at least as high as he can. so the value or price of an object is going to be on the lowest level that the average worker, whos labor market is flooded, can afford. While the capitalist who is doing relatively little reaps the rewards at both ends. (the capitalist masterminded the operation.. you shouldn't be able to profit only from doing physical work.. brainpower = $$ )Well what this does is artificially inflate an items "value" to the highest point that doesn't have people in the streets protesting. In this the capitalists aren't just skimming off the top, they are feeding the lower class the bare minimum they need to survive instead of simply skimming off the top as they should and allowing the lower class to flourish. But that's the basic of economy..the basic of human development.. supply & demand.. prices go up, prices go down.. mr. Warner Buffet didn't become rich by moping schools and doing nothing. Same goes for Bill Gates.

[PassTheBeer]

Do you know why capitalism has worked 'just fine' for you? It is because you are still riding the crest of elevated living standards the USA and Western Europe were forced to provide to their citizenry when the Soviet Union was around.

During the Cold War the Western Bloc was forced to make capitalism seem legitimate in the eyes of Western workers - hence the reformism of the post-war period. Once the Cold War ended, of course, the assault on the wage earners and pettiest of the petty bourgeoisie has been resumed.

You will see now, and over the course of the next few decades how "capitalism is progressing all the time".

That's nice, but I'm from Eastern Europe. My uncle from Italy had to bring us detergent for the washing machine as it was not available here. :hammersickle:

[PassTheBeer]

Honestly, who the fuck cares? If you're in a fire fight and bombs are going off, does it really matter if the guy carrying you're injured carcass once revealed to you that his penis has been in some sweet, sweet man ass? I mean seriously, it just seems ridiculous.


The GOP does :lol:

[PassTheBeer]

So? They were nearly extinct after the explorers came.

Your point being ? They didn't bring the flu on purpose

[PassTheBeer]

Trust me, there are many arguments and disagreements between us Communists, we spent the majority of time bickering between ourselves rather than doing anything.

We do debate people with other views in the appropriately named 'Opposing Ideologies' section, but not with fascists/nazis. This is mainly for 2 reasons:

- Their beliefs are always fuelled by racism, and that's always what the argument boils down to.
- The owner of this forum lives in Germany and could get in legal trouble for having that sort of shit on his website.

Good.. I'm neither
True fascism does not have to include racism btw.

[PassTheBeer]

religious education (though I guess you knew that!) yeah I agree, but religious education for me at a catholic school was basically christian indoctrination, if thats what you had in mind from my experience it only put me off organised religion. For me it should be a chance to learn about all religions, and atheism, and different cultures too. If a family want their child to be brought up with religious values thats the job of the family and the church, not the school.

A child should be able to learn about Christianity in a Christian majority country.. there should be another option like ethics for non-Christians.

conscription: If he wants to join the army that more than anything should be his choice, can you honestly imagine going to your teenagers funeral?

At the moment yes... I may be grief stricken but duty is a constant.

You say you want your wife to be a homemaker, she can be a homemaker if she wants to, are you saying women should only be allowed to be homemakers? I don't even know where to begin with that one if thats the case..

Don't jump to conclusions.. she can be what she wants, I'd simply prefer for her to be a homemaker.


'Curb gay rights' - make it illegal for consenting adults to be in a relationship?

In their 4 walls they can do what they want. No adoptions or unions etc.

Affirmative Action - affirmative action isn't perfect perhaps, but at least its a start in allowing minorities a right to work (if you can call wage labor a right as such).

There is no such thing as a minority, there is only a citizen with different racial or ethnic background. If you came to someone else's country you must blend in.

Castrate pedophiles - what about female pedophiles? Female circumcision? Or are we talking chemical castration? Why not the same treatment for rapists? Also are we talking pedophiles as in anyone who has intercourse with a child under 18 (even if they were unaware of their age) in the same category as someone who sexually molests or hurts infants? I know there's a lot of questions here, I'm not the Cheka/ Gestapo :lol: just trying to clarify a few things you've said.

Chemical castration for men... Lighter sentences for women.. and you can pass if your like 20+ and she is around 16 and you didn't know. Yeah, chemical castration for rapists also.

Banning abortions is another issue that has been discussed at length on here, but just briefly I will say that as a man you should not seek to impose the most painful thing a woman can experience upon her simply because she has made a mistake.

A unborn baby should not be killed for its moms mistake.

What part of europe are you from?I put it to you that Amsterdam and Rotterdam are too different economically and culturally, let alone Holland and Germany..

good to know

Okay what sort of immigration restrictions are we talking about? And what about refugees fleeing from persecution?

No green card for non-Europeans unless they are very needed... like expert brain surgeons.. foreigners can come as tourists , buy real-estate and educate themselves. No working permits. About refugees.. they can go to other places similar to their home or occupied by their people. Example, Libyan refs can go to Tunisia or Morocco. Worst case scenario, we set up camps for them to live in until the crisis is over.

TBH I don't care about the rules there, I don't think anyone should join the military right now.

cute

One that supports the US no doubt? Unlikely, I don't think you could find enough US supporters in Somalia to organise a basketball team let alone a stable government.. NATO perhaps..
I actually used to think like that, for instance before the Iraq war I saw Kurdish people being massacred by Saddam Hussein, or Iraq invading Kuwait for oil, or Afghan women being executed etc and I wondered why a powerful country doesn't intervene to help. But the actual result of that is usually far worse.

I still believe we should help.. and not by opening our borders but by making their countries better.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

The GOP does :lol:

I'm not interested in how knuckle dragging buffoons (the GOP) feel about the issue, I'm interested in why do you personally care enough to make it a political point.



Good.. I'm neither
True fascism does not have to include racism btw.

In theory, perhaps not but in actual and historical practice, it has.

[Le Rouge]

I still believe we should help.. and not by opening our borders but by making their countries better.

Making their countries better... lol. For whom? How? By bombing their homes? By Killing brown people with turbans?

[Rusty Shackleford]

youve made up your mind. either you will realize it yourself that workers deserve control over the products of their labor or you will continue to stand for the status quo and reaction.



i post on The Blaze mostly mocking white-supremacists(so much so that it looks like my posts will not be registered on the website anymore lol) but i dont go there challenging people to ideological fights. why? because in such a political atmosphere like this one, minds mostly have been made up.


plus, you are already here expecting a fight. you just built up a mental barrier. you will cling to your points (as others have said) and deny or denounce points that contradict your own.


so...


thats it.

[gendoikari]

Ok.. I wouldn't exactly call that a problem of capitalism. If you study to be a cashier you can except trouble finding a job and low pay, however if you become something that is required on the labour market like a doctor , structural engineer , electromechanic , manager, CNC technician etc. you can live the good life. Capitalism rewards your use to society, meaning the more wanted your profession is, you will have it easier. That sounds good. Be useful or drown in the labor market.

Yeah lets break this down....

1. Not everyone has a degree, not everyone can afford to go out and get a degree and student loans often mean spending your life in near poverty trying to pay them back. So essentially your saying that the lucky few that do get to go to school are the only ones who deserve to earn a decent wage while the manual laborers are pieces of shit and deserve to be treated like the pieces of shit they are. Yeah, that's just the kind of world we're trying to make. :rolleyes: (BTW, it's the working class that keeps the lights on and the water running.)

2. As those professions are not in the controll bracket they are still kept artificially lower via the lack of leverage. as in the core problem here is one party setting all the prices.

3. Capitalism does not reward your use to society it crushes the proletariat (meaning all those professions you mentioned above plus the working class, basically anyone who is not an owner) into doing what the owners want.


a great business chance.. open a s shop nearby and sell for less money.. risk and hope you earn

The Flaw in this theory is that when someone comes along to compete, both parties are trying to do the same thing, which is make more money, so the two will only set prices at a marginally lower rate, which will still be at the upper limit of what people are able to pay. The only way to get around this is to have a competitor enter the market whom does not work for a net profit. Just look at the clothing industry. Clothes are made, generally speaking, in third world nations for pennies on the hour if not day. The total cost of materials due to vertical integration is usually very low, so the total cost for production is usually around $3-5 after calculating in overhead. Now how much do you pay for these clothes.... well at my local walmart, a store that's sole marketing strategy is to be consistently lower than it's competetors it's about $15 or more. Now When I say overhead I mean shipping, transportation, the bills for the property the factory is on, everything, including the managers wages. So the clothes are sold at a 500% or more of their production cost. That's again, EVERYTHING the company did to make them. The rest of the money goes to the owners. the stock holders who have done nothing along the process of production except clicked on "buy" on their stock account. So effectively you aren't really even paying the people that did everything including manage the whole deal even a real fraction of what the owners get.

Now that's the textile industry which is heavily based on avoiding socialist principals like, lol, minimum wage laws, so they find the most free market enterprises in the world, the most desperate of the third world nations and build their factories.


the capitalist masterminded the operation.. you shouldn't be able to profit only from doing physical work.. brainpower = $$

Wow hypocrite, know how much a scientist doing research at a university makes... about $40-70k a year. Average income is about 63k, Now, know how much an equivalent capitalist makes... doing just as much math and science? Anywhere between $200,000 and $100,000,000 and they don't contribute anything to society, other than playing with stocks.

[PassTheBeer]

Ok, I'm going to redo my post in a user friendly way, beause I still have faith that you want an honest discussion, I hope thats the case. What I wrote is in quotes and I simplify it below.
4. If people are just, yes, socialism can work.. For example, if 30 friends are stranded on a small island. But world wide anarcho-communism ? No way
I'm not sure what you are, however I could live in a Cuban like socialist state if the living standards are decent. I just like the feeling of earning something. I'm not really motivated to work If I gain null.


socialism basically means eocnomic democracy, so juts like political democracy, it does not require people to be good or bad or whatever.



If people ARE naturally bad, then it makes sense that people as individuals have less power over other individuals, under capitalism, the wealthy elite and corporate elite have insane amounts of economic power over other people, which means that they can do more bad, infact it only works if they are naturally good, whereas under socialism you have economic democracy, meaning bad people have less opportunity to do bad things to other people because you have a democratic process.
3. Yes, capitalism needs to grow... If we had the technology they have on star trek where they create stuff out of nothing, I could somewhat imagine a communist world.. But its still very early for that. I advocate a capitalistic system that has anti-globalist elements. Take for example Sweden. What are the chances their economy will collapse ? Not by their fault but by the collapse that happens in the US monetary system for example. I guess returning to the gold standard could prevent a lot of problems.


Thats basically me saying that your claim that you need a lot of technology for socialism makes no sense at all.

And that Socialist reforms in the nordic countries are what made them strong economically.

Capitalism needs more and more growth, this is a more complicated economic concept and you may not understand it, but if you need I'll write it out simply.



Having gold would limit the supply of money, less money means its worth a lot more, which means that prices would go down a lot, what that would mean is that profits would drop really quickly and companies would cut and cut and cut and cut, they would'nt be able to produce things and the economy could not grow. Look up deflation and its economic effects, point is its a disaster, not only that but gold is a commodity that is produced in different countries, making it a major problem for capitalism.



Already explained
2. I'm guessing your typical capitalistic is a fat cigar smoking guy in a suit that controls 300,000 people. I'm not a fan of huge corporations but economic freedom is a basic human right. Why should someone who invents something not be able to profit from it. Capitalism advocates work, you can also say, it forces you to work. Not a bad thing really.


Self explanitory, when I say public sphere I mean the government. When you invet something you need funding, from banks, you need producers, you need marketers and so on, utlimarely in almost all cases the profits go to the bankers.

Also inventing does not generally get funding from the private sphere, (its a high high risk endevour), so most of it comes from the government anyway.



Just needing good and sevices forces people to work, not capitalism, people worked before capitalism and they will after, capitalism forces people to work without benefiting from their work, thats the problem.



self-explanitory, socialism makes freedom a human right all can enjoy, not a for sale commodity only available for a monied few.



Big corporations ARE capitalism, capitalism naturally (for complex economic reasons, which I will explain if you want me to) concentrates more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands, and the end result is corporatism, like we have today.



Self explanitory



Self explanitory

You cleared some things up, thank you.

[PassTheBeer]

Making their countries better... lol. For whom? How? By bombing their homes? By Killing brown people with turbans?

How do you plan to improve the living standard in Somalia ? I vote for full scale land invasion and then gradually build up their armed forces, police etc. And then start a campaign of economic revitalization. Look at Kuwait today, after USA intervention :rolleyes:

[PassTheBeer]

[QUOTE=Dzerzhinsky's Ghost;2208363]I'm not interested in how knuckle dragging buffoons (the GOP) feel about the issue, I'm interested in why do you personally care enough to make it a political point.

Look, I really don't care what 2 dudes do in their bedroom.. I really don't care and I really don't want to know. A gay adult should keep that to himself, there is no reason for others to know that.

[gendoikari]

How do you plan to improve the living standard in Somalia ? I vote for full scale land invasion and then gradually build up their armed forces, police etc. And then start a campaign of economic revitalization. Look at Kuwait today, after USA intervention :rolleyes:

Oh crap that's right kuwait, We DO have another star to add on the flag.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Look, I really don't care what 2 dudes do in their bedroom.. I really don't care and I really don't want to know. A gay adult should keep that to himself, there is no reason for others to know that.

Then the question arises, why should homosexuals keep their personal life a dirty little secret while their comrades can brag about how many women they've fucked, how hot their wife is, etc.? If one should have to keep their sex/personal life a secret then other should as well, that's equality, therefore I propose DADT of any naughty business of any sort; let's see how many service people we have left after that. The issue seems so trivial it's absurd.

[gendoikari]

What the fuck is so bad to right wingers about letting homosexuals get married and have the same damn life experience as the rest of us?

Do they just really like gay people and want to save them from getting married?

[Le Rouge]

How do you plan to improve the living standard in Somalia ? I vote for full scale land invasion and then gradually build up their armed forces, police etc. And then start a campaign of economic revitalization. Look at Kuwait today, after USA intervention :rolleyes:

What do you think Nato intervention in afghanistan is for? Surely not for liberating the country or to increase the living standard of it's citizens. It's for economic purposes in the interest of NATO.

Uncle Joe just said : Let's bomb brown people. They are all terrorists anyway.

Why the fuck do you think there's more talibans now in afghanistan since the invasion?
Hint : Not because the living standard increased

I don't support Taliban . I also don't support NATO

[Luc]

How do you plan to improve the living standard in Somalia ? I vote for full scale land invasion and then gradually build up their armed forces, police etc. And then start a campaign of economic revitalization. Look at Kuwait today, after USA intervention :rolleyes:

It just doesn't work like that, I'm sorry. Everytime I hear about what the mid. east far right does to humans, I wish I could invade them too and solve the problem but invading them just doesn't work.

Invading causes a more favorable look at the Taliban and others because they can say that the West really do want to take over the mid. east, destroy Islam, etcetera and it will be believable since there are Westerners occupying their lands.

Not to mention the incidences of Western soldiers killing civillians and other (for lack of a more severe sounding word) abuses. as Le Rouge said, they will get more militants not necessarily in the name of Jihad but sometimes anti-imperialism and nationalism.

You also have to take into account the idea of the West invading the "holy lands" because of its relation to the Crusades in which Western Crusaders commited many atrocities; not only to Muslims but also Jews and their fellow Christians.I think those stories are still told in bars &lounges and didn't George Bush use the word "crusade" once?:confused:

Sorry I started focusing on the Mid. East...

All that is extremely expensive and in Capitalism, if you don't make a profit it's not worth spending money on it.

Also, economic plans? That sounds like Socialism!:)

[RGacky3]

You cleared some things up, thank you.

So seeing as you don't have a response, I take it you agree with what I said and are now a socialist.

[Nox]

Good.. I'm neither
True fascism does not have to include racism btw.

Exactly... That's why you haven't been banned yet, because the Admins don't think you're a fascist.

And yes it does. Please explain how you think true fascism doesn't include racism.

[Nox]

That's nice, but I'm from Eastern Europe. My uncle from Italy had to bring us detergent for the washing machine as it was not available here. :hammersickle:

Where in Eastern Europe were you from?

[gendoikari]

Exactly... That's why you haven't been banned yet, because the Admins don't think you're a fascist.

And yes it does. Please explain how you think true fascism doesn't include racism.

seeing as one of the core tenants is racial superiority..... of course that's the outside looking in, who knows maybe we're as wrong about fascism as the rest of the world is about socialism. We'll just have to ask someone on the inside, Passthebeer, care to explain what you mean?

[Nox]

Your point being ? They didn't bring the flu on purpose

My point being what the fuck was the point of going in and killing them all then taking over their land and saying "it's ours because we developed the technology" when you could have easily lived peacefully and co-operated with them so that they would still be alive and have the same technology they do now.

You don't need to colonialise/kill to give people technology.

[gendoikari]

My point being what the fuck was the point of going in and killing them all then taking over their land and saying "it's ours because we developed the technology" when you could have easily lived peacefully and co-operated with them so that they would still be alive and have the same technology they do now.

You don't need to colonialise/kill to give people technology.

did they really need technology in the first place. I mean maybe they didn't develope it for a reason, like you know, they were at peace with the land. I mean I can see if they asked for it but...

[Nox]

did they really need technology in the first place. I mean maybe they didn't develope it for a reason, like you know, they were at peace with the land. I mean I can see if they asked for it but...

Yes, I'm just saying that in response to the common fascist argument that they developed the area by colonialising it. The same applies for African nations etc

[Viet Minh]

religious education (though I guess you knew that!) yeah I agree, but religious education for me at a catholic school was basically christian indoctrination, if thats what you had in mind from my experience it only put me off organised religion. For me it should be a chance to learn about all religions, and atheism, and different cultures too. If a family want their child to be brought up with religious values thats the job of the family and the church, not the school.

A child should be able to learn about Christianity in a Christian majority country.. there should be another option like ethics for non-Christians.

A child should be able to learn about christianity in a church, ethics should be taught to all children, especially christians!


conscription: If he wants to join the army that more than anything should be his choice, can you honestly imagine going to your teenagers funeral?

At the moment yes... I may be grief stricken but duty is a constant.

What if the 'duty' was in Palestine, supporting the IDF? Not to go down that road, just asking because you mentioend supporting Palestine. What if your Government didn't share your views and forced you to fight against them? How far do you compromise your principles or beliefs in the name of duty?


You say you want your wife to be a homemaker, she can be a homemaker if she wants to, are you saying women should only be allowed to be homemakers? I don't even know where to begin with that one if thats the case..

Don't jump to conclusions.. she can be what she wants, I'd simply prefer for her to be a homemaker.

And if you lost your job and couldn't perform your own stereotypical gender role would you expect her to leave you?


'Curb gay rights' - make it illegal for consenting adults to be in a relationship?

In their 4 walls they can do what they want. No adoptions or unions etc.

Marriage is a religious ceremony it should have no legal repercussions.


Affirmative Action - affirmative action isn't perfect perhaps, but at least its a start in allowing minorities a right to work (if you can call wage labor a right as such).

There is no such thing as a minority, there is only a citizen with different racial or ethnic background. If you came to someone else's country you must blend in.

That's hard if you don't speak the language, have the predominant skin color, or speak with the right accent. Its even harder when you can't get a job and even schools don't let your kids join.


Castrate pedophiles - what about female pedophiles? Female circumcision? Or are we talking chemical castration? Why not the same treatment for rapists? Also are we talking pedophiles as in anyone who has intercourse with a child under 18 (even if they were unaware of their age) in the same category as someone who sexually molests or hurts infants? I know there's a lot of questions here, I'm not the Cheka/ Gestapo :lol: just trying to clarify a few things you've said.

Chemical castration for men... Lighter sentences for women.. and you can pass if your like 20+ and she is around 16 and you didn't know. Yeah, chemical castration for rapists also.

Lighter sentences for women, why?


Banning abortions is another issue that has been discussed at length on here, but just briefly I will say that as a man you should not seek to impose the most painful thing a woman can experience upon her simply because she has made a mistake.

A unborn baby should not be killed for its moms mistake.

I had a bad choice of words there, abortions are rarely due to mistakes, what do you think about a pregnant woman who has been raped?

Anyway its not an unborn baby, its barely even a fish at that stage.


What part of europe are you from?I put it to you that Amsterdam and Rotterdam are too different economically and culturally, let alone Holland and Germany..

good to know

Wait did I just talk you out of the little bit of progressiveness you've actually shown here? :crying: :lol:



Okay what sort of immigration restrictions are we talking about? And what about refugees fleeing from persecution?

No green card for non-Europeans unless they are very needed... like expert brain surgeons.. foreigners can come as tourists , buy real-estate and educate themselves. No working permits. About refugees.. they can go to other places similar to their home or occupied by their people. Example, Libyan refs can go to Tunisia or Morocco. Worst case scenario, we set up camps for them to live in until the crisis is over.


And Palestinians can go to Syria? Where they have been executed in the past?



One that supports the US no doubt? Unlikely, I don't think you could find enough US supporters in Somalia to organise a basketball team let alone a stable government.. NATO perhaps..
I actually used to think like that, for instance before the Iraq war I saw Kurdish people being massacred by Saddam Hussein, or Iraq invading Kuwait for oil, or Afghan women being executed etc and I wondered why a powerful country doesn't intervene to help. But the actual result of that is usually far worse.

I still believe we should help.. and not by opening our borders but by making their countries better.


We can make their countries better by not selling them guns, sending AID, writing off their national debt, not propping up dictators like Saddam or crazy groups like the Taleban..


Look, I really don't care what 2 dudes do in their bedroom.. I really don't care and I really don't want to know. A gay adult should keep that to himself, there is no reason for others to know that.

And yet you don't mind hearing about a man and a woman.. ? So you're bisexual? :lol:

Of course I'm joking, but I don't get the problem, nobody is saying you have to watch them

[Misanthrope]

Debate could strengthen your viewpoints or make you realize some errors you did not see earlier. I'm gouseeing most of you here are impressionable teenagers or students in their rebel phase.

Shut the fuck up. You asked for a debate stop acting like you're our dad. You aren't superior to us because of your age.

[Obs]

Shut the fuck up. You asked for a debate stop acting like you're our dad. You aren't superior to us because of your age.

What makes you think he's necessarily older than the users of this forum? We have several grown people on here.

[Misanthrope]

What makes you think he's necessarily older than the users of this forum? We have several grown people on here.

I know.

[Astarte]

That's nice, but I'm from Eastern Europe. My uncle from Italy had to bring us detergent for the washing machine as it was not available here. :hammersickle:

Thats an interesting point - the shortages of consumer goods in the USSR.

On an international scale though, the USSR served as a "counter-weight" to mid to late 20th century superpower capitalism-imperialism as manifest by the USA and the NATO states. The Soviet Union represented an alternative political/productive system to capitalism - something in "modern times" which had yet to be seen. Whatever the class character of the USSR was - this much can be agreed to - its very existence benefited Western wage earners since it posed a global source of counter-hegemony which did not base its power on private property, but collective state property in the name of the working class - the vanguard party became a new ruling whose role on the stage of history was diametrically opposed to all of what plutocracy stood for. Meanwhile plutocracy lulled its working class to sleep with Disneyland, and the sweet nothings of the "American Dream", lest the "asiatic" sysetm of the Reds pollute their minds by way of inferior living standards.

Though the USSR was ass backwards in its planning of consumer goods the reason why it was is both the reason why it fell and the reason why it was a kind of proto-state for a future, and perhaps global planned economy, collective property based society. The bureaucracy was a new ruling class which came to power with the objective of completing the industrial revolution in Russia - this it accomplished - where it began to falter though was when it no longer saw its historical destiny - a blind groping in the darkness for "Communism", which it knew it could never achieve on account of its own existence - the Soviet ruling class bureaucracy was like a vampire, in that it knew it existed and what it was, yet it could never identify itself in the mirror - this is why the Soviet Union fell , and why the Communist Party of China is still in power.

Future bureaucratic centrists, technocrats, and apparatus statists when they come to power will admit they are a new class; much like the Party in 1984, their historical destiny will be clear to them.

[Red Future]

Interesting that you are from Eastern Europe and consider Capitalist systems as "Superior" , when it is common knowledge (In pretty liberal circles too ..not just some "commie propaganda" ) that with a lack of central planning.... living standards with a few exceptions dropped in Eastern Europe post 1989.Hence the emergence of "Ostalge" in the Former GDR and Romania/ Hungary.

This doesn't point to progress in this region of the world ...and they have had over 20 years of Capitalism now.

[Le Rouge]

How do you plan to improve the living standard in Somalia ? I vote for full scale land invasion and then gradually build up their armed forces, police etc. And then start a campaign of economic revitalization. Look at Kuwait today, after USA intervention :rolleyes:

I vote that we deport you in Somalia and make a full scale land invasion in the city you are, just to make you know how it is (if you survive).

Kuweit = America's *****.

[Le Rouge]

What makes you think he's necessarily older than the users of this forum? We have several grown people on here.

I also think he is older than a majority of us. He's a conservative. You really rarely find Cory's younger than 30-40 Y/O

[Hiero]

How exactly are you going to make millions of people join "the revolution" if those asking for a debate get banned, or are am not welcome here etc. Begin growing your red worker army with me, I'm your average right-wing Joe. I drive a yellow Volvo and work in the commerce department of a firm that sells agricultural parts.

What's it like driving a volvo?

[The Teacher]

The rich will continue to take from you until you have nothing left. When you get to that point, you won't need anyone to convince you.

[Kamos]

Interesting that you are from Eastern Europe and consider Capitalist systems as "Superior" , when it is common knowledge (In pretty liberal circles too ..not just some "commie propaganda" ) that with a lack of central planning.... living standards with a few exceptions dropped in Eastern Europe post 1989.Hence the emergence of "Ostalge" in the Former GDR and Romania/ Hungary.

This doesn't point to progress in this region of the world ...and they have had over 20 years of Capitalism now.

Hungary?? You mean all the fascists that fill this country? Nahh. I've heard Romanians wanting Ceaucescu back (and he was one of the worst self-proclaimed communists ever), but this feeling seems to be absent here for some reason.

[Delenda Carthago]

Are you a worker? your economic status is based on your wage income? you want to be paid based on the wealth that you produce and not as much as your boss decides that you should? then get down with us...

[Le Rouge]

Capitalism (with help form propaganda and media) made the grand majority of US workers against communism, wich is a system made for workers. :(

[No_Leaders]

You sound like a right wing fascist.. Oh wait, you are one. So i don't see how you can justify or be okay with a system based on greed and exploitation. Basically you seem pretty content and okay with an economic system that keeps people oppressed and in chains to the rich. Look at the real picture, the issue is capitalism itself. Not just capitalism but hierarchy as a whole. Someone shouldn't have control and power over another human being simply because they have the title of "Officer" in front of them or "President". Rather than having one person on top telling everyone else how to live, why not have society function where everyone's voices and ideas are heard? Rather than a police force who rules with a badge and a gun through fear, why not have people who actively look out for one another because they care about their community? You might say this can't happen in society, well you need to realize the society we live in is a capitalistic society based on control and greed. You see the end results of capitalism whether it's the homeless man asking for change on the median inebetween lanes, or the local drug dealer who's resorted to dealing drugs to make income so he can make ends meet. Even the crime you see in "ghettos" are all a direct result of the system we live in. People aren't inherently evil, rather they make rash and sometimes bad decisions because of how this system is operating. The only reason "ghettos" and slums exist is because of specific policies government officials and politicians take which basically push poor people into run down neighborhoods and then term them a ghetto. The real threat isn't terrorism, it's these greedy fucks that make decisions with a swipe of the pen. ;)

[Euronymous]

I used to work at a concrete manufacturing plant a few months ago. I worked with 200 fellow employees, including the CEOs son. We all worked hard, very hard. But whenever I saw the son of the CEO, he wasn't doing anything but walk around or drive a truck with no aim but to drive around, as well as sit in the warehouse and text his buddies. He also had a brand new lexus while all the cars around his were beat up and shitty (Because we earned a shitty wage). Now I thought to myself "Why does he have so many privleges while us actual workers get shit from the foremen and occasionally injured on the job?"

I guess he was just born with privleges us ordinary workers just missed out on in the vast gene pool.

See anything wrong with capitalism yet? Or are you going to say I need to go to college to get a rap career? (Thats what the little prick was aspiring to be. So gangsta he was.)

[Hiero]

The rich will continue to take from you until you have nothing left. When you get to that point, you won't need anyone to convince you.

Not necessarily, they need workers to be able to re-produce their ability to perform labour 5 days a week. A major stratum need to have something and allowed some form of accumulation. In the recent crises that the most settled working and middle class faced lossing what they had accumulated (or at least what they thought they had accumulated, through credit).

[Azula]

by leftist I mean far left..

How exactly are you going to make millions of people join "the revolution" if those asking for a debate get banned, or are am not welcome here etc. Begin growing your red worker army with me, I'm your average right-wing Joe. I drive a yellow Volvo and work in the commerce department of a firm that sells agricultural parts.

I couldn't remember my account so I tried to make a new one.. This caught my eye:

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are a right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back!

Yeah, this just shines with style and intellectualism. I mean seriously, the first association were a bunch of punks with red mohawks writing this in the basement. No style at all.. I mean seriously, here is what Von Thronsthal would say:

and yes, you need style..

Here is what I support:

Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatism
Family values
Traditional values
Green politics
Intelectualism
Pan-europeanism
Strict immigration laws
Conscription (and light militarism)
Palestine state
Military invasions for humanitarian causes (Somalia, North Korea)
Don't ask don't tell
Anti-communism

Lets keep it civil.
I'm not a fascist, nazi, national-bolshevik, monarchist, national-syndicalist bla bla bla , so admin, please don't satisfy your urge to ban me, I've heard the admins here are easy on the trigger.

game on (I'm still guessing I will be banned or mocked.. please surprise me)

Why would anyone like to turn you? You are a reactionary.

People will join the revolutionary cause because of the material situation, not because of idealist reasons. It is important that we focus on empowering workers, unions, women, minorities, LGBTQ people, students and other oppressed groups in the meantime, in order to build a vanguard which could lead the masses in overthrowing capitalism.

You would make a lousy revolutionary from the start.

That is the sad truth.

[RGacky3]

People will join the revolutionary cause because of the material situation, not because of idealist reasons.

And because they are convinced that it will better their sutation and will work out, and many of them because of idealist reasons as well.

[PassTheBeer]

So seeing as you don't have a response, I take it you agree with what I said and are now a socialist.

Yes, thank you, you get a honorary discharge. (salutes)

Now to give some quick replies and answer short questions...

[PassTheBeer]

My point being what the fuck was the point of going in and killing them all then taking over their land and saying "it's ours because we developed the technology" when you could have easily lived peacefully and co-operated with them so that they would still be alive and have the same technology they do now.

You don't need to colonialise/kill to give people technology.

I also wouldn't advise giving away the secret of gunpowder to highly militaristic , human and child sacrificing warlords. We conquer to gain influence and riches and in return improve their lives. Or at least try to (shut up with the common flu)

[PassTheBeer]

Where in Eastern Europe were you from?

Croatia.. It can be eastern, southern or central Europe... take your pick

[Nox]

I also wouldn't advise giving away the secret of gunpowder to highly militaristic , human and child sacrificing warlords. We conquer to gain influence and riches and in return improve their lives. Or at least try to (shut up with the common flu)

Or you could just not be selfish, greedy bastards and improve their lives for free.

[PassTheBeer]

What's it like driving a volvo?

It feels good driving the worlds safest car. Are you gonna ramble how the seats were made by Pakistani orphans ?

[PassTheBeer]

Or you could just not be selfish, greedy bastards and improve their lives for free.

What do I gain ? Money, power ,women, land, fame ?

[Nox]

What do I gain ? Money, power ,women, land, fame ?

Exactly. You have the mindset of a fucking fascist scumbag. Goodbye.

[PassTheBeer]

Shut the fuck up. You asked for a debate stop acting like you're our dad. You aren't superior to us because of your age.

Says you :cool: What have you accomplished in your life to make me respect you ? Lets say nothing... What that fuck the world attitude, I doubt you will. You should be conscripted just so you could learn some manners.

[PassTheBeer]

Exactly. You have the mindset of a fucking fascist scumbag. Goodbye.

I was asking from the perspective of a conquistador... There, there (hug) :rolleyes:

[PassTheBeer]

Exactly. You have the mindset of a fucking fascist scumbag. Goodbye.

But really now, I asked a good question. They could misuse that technology.. I mean, they are sacrificing thousands of people all the time :thumbdown:

[RGacky3]

Exactly. You have the mindset of a fucking fascist scumbag. Goodbye.

Says the Stalinist.


What have you accomplished in your life to make me respect you ? Lets say nothing... What that fuck the world attitude, I doubt you will. You should be conscripted just so you could learn some manners.

A: This is an internet website, meaning you have no idea what any of us has done.
B: One thing I accomplished was make a bunch of arguments for socialism that you could not respond to.

[PassTheBeer]

Says the Stalinist.



A: This is an internet website, meaning you have no idea what any of us has done.
B: One thing I accomplished was make a bunch of arguments for socialism that you could not respond to.

Pick your favorite one and I will do my best to answer. I'm not very comfortable with the quoting system, I prefer to answer single questions...

[RGacky3]

Why don't you pick a couple, press "new reply" then inside copy what I say and paste it in the new reply then highlight it and click the quote button, then type underneath it your reply.

I don't care about your social-conservative stuff, I'm here to debate socialism vrs capitalism as economic systems.

[Kamos]

I also wouldn't advise giving away the secret of gunpowder to highly militaristic , human and child sacrificing warlords. We conquer to gain influence and riches and in return improve their lives. Or at least try to (shut up with the common flu)

Other than the "human and child sacrificing" part, the rest also applies to Europe. And no, I don't think anyone cared about the lives of the natives during the era of colonisation.

[Kamos]

Says the Stalinist.

Says the one who is restricted.

[RGacky3]

You got me.

[PassTheBeer]

Says the one who is restricted.

Restricted people are cool :cool:

[PassTheBeer]

Why don't you pick a couple, press "new reply" then inside copy what I say and paste it in the new reply then highlight it and click the quote button, then type underneath it your reply.

I don't care about your social-conservative stuff, I'm here to debate socialism vrs capitalism as economic systems.

Fine.. You are a anarcho-syndicalist.. Care to explain what do you stand for ?

[Red And Black Sabot]

I actually tricked a red girl into beliving I was on the red side. They are quite easy to bring to bed..interesting. Good times indeed.. :rolleyes:

How is this sexist fuck still allowed to post here?

[PassTheBeer]

How is this sexist fuck still allowed to post here?

I'm not sexist.. and you are rude.

[Nox]

Says the Stalinist

I expected that someone who'd been on this forum since 2002 would have the slightest idea of what Marxism-Leninism is, apparantly not.

[RichardAWilson]

No, I don't care. Right-winged minds often work differently than left-winged minds. I believe neurological studies have been conducted on the matter. Left-wingers are often more fact focused and right-wingers are more emotion driven.

http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-sci-politics10sep10,0,2687256.story


Liberals had more brain activity and made fewer mistakes

[syndicat]

passthebeer:
Ok.. I wouldn't exactly call that a problem of capitalism. If you study to be a cashier you can except trouble finding a job and low pay, however if you become something that is required on the labour market like a doctor , structural engineer , electromechanic , manager, CNC technician etc. you can live the good life. Capitalism rewards your use to society, meaning the more wanted your profession is, you will have it easier. That sounds good. Be useful or drown in the labor market.

there are only a limited number of jobs of this sort. this is a product of how capitalism defines jobs. so you're condemning the majority to less remunerative and more insecure jobs.

access to education that could lead to such jobs is also restricted in various ways...through poor early educational opportunities for working class kids, lack of funding. about twothirds of high school grads in the USA do start college but most can't complete it due to financial inability or poor preparatory education earlier on in poor schools.

[PassTheBeer]

passthebeer:

there are only a limited number of jobs of this sort. this is a product of how capitalism defines jobs. so you're condemning the majority to less remunerative and more insecure jobs.

access to education that could lead to such jobs is also restricted in various ways...through poor early educational opportunities for working class kids, lack of funding. about twothirds of high school grads in the USA do start college but most can't complete it due to financial inability or poor preparatory education earlier on in poor schools.

That seems to be an American issue as most colleges are free in the rest of the world.. aren't there any public colleges available or student loans?

[khad]

Banned this ustase shitfuck

[RGacky3]

Fine.. You are a anarcho-syndicalist.. Care to explain what do you stand for ?

It means I'm against all authority that is'nt absolutely justified to a very strict degree, it means I'm pro-union and believe that unions should look to take over industry, I believe that industry should be democratically run by the workers, thats first and formost what I believe, I think socialism should be brought about first and formost by the workers organized by taking over their workplace, and that ultimately both capitalists and states authority is illigitimate.


How is this sexist fuck still allowed to post here?

How is that sexist?