Racial Perceptions on Tyra

[LegendZ]

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I think this still shows that racism in the US IS STILL A LARGE FACTOR. I personally was disgusted. Being from the South myself. I STILL SEE RACISM EVERYDAY IN SCHOOL. And people tell me racism isn't a factor? bullshit.

TBH everyone pissed the fuck off out of me except the Arabic and black woman and the Dominican.The white people pissed the fuck off out of me the most. I wanted to know the fuck out of the Christian with my Euphonium. The ignorance in this WORLD pisses me off. I almost died when I heard the white girls excuse. "Christianity taught me it's ok to be racist." I don't give a fuck what religion you are. You can be spaghettilasagnanity. When you grown the fuck up. It's time you make up your own damn mind on issues. Not stay in the same world because your parents taught you or because of where you came from.

The last video just shows that kids are brainwashed in the homes from at their age. It's funny how they believe the lies before Barack was president through. Personally I don't think any of them changed. Maybe that's why I don't watch Tyra, because the end is usually fucked up and pisses me off.

[Nox]

1:47 in the first video

Awkward moment...

[LegendZ]

1:47 in the first video

Awkward moment...The first thing I thought was.

"Ass-whopping incoming"

[Sensible Socialist]

I thought it was interesting that 3:13 of the first video, the girl says that blacks are always portrayed in a negative light in the media. It's not an excuse for her racism, but she did inadvertantly point out the fact that discrimination and racism is present in the news. People are drawn to a story about a black menace, but very rarely do you see a story about community organizers in poor minority neighborhoods.

Those people are proof that racism is alive and well. The next time someone tells me that parents should be able to raise their children any way they like, I'll show them those videos and say that's the consequence of giving two people total control over their children.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I was screaming "This is because of class!!!!!! Not race!" in my head...the whole time.

[ifeelyou]

Why is there always someone on RevLeft trying to minimize the significance of race and racism by promoting class determinism? Ugh.

[WeAreReborn]

Why is there always someone on RevLeft trying to minimize the significance of race and racism by promoting class determinism? Ugh.
I hardly consider it minimizing. It just reinforces the point that classes cause racism and social divisions. Its a simple fact and doesn't take away from how horrible racism really is.

[ifeelyou]

I hardly consider it minimizing. It just reinforces the point that classes cause racism and social divisions. Its a simple fact and doesn't take away from how horrible racism really is.

The statement was:


I was screaming "This is because of class!!!!!! Not race!" in my head...the whole time.

This person has decided that the issue has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with class-- despite the show's analysis of clear racial perceptions. This, my friend, is a minimization (if not outright dismissal) of race in favor of class.

[jake williams]

This person has decided that the issue has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with class-- despite the show's analysis of clear racial perceptions. This, my friend, is a minimization (if not outright dismissal) of race in favor of class.
Well look. "Race" isn't a real thing, so it can't be the root cause of racism. Racism is a real social phenomenon, but it's not coming from the fact that white people and black people are different and need to respect each others' different cultures and skills and propensities to commit crimes.

"Class" is a real thing and it is the root cause of racism (as a social phenomenon). Racism is a class phenomenon whereby the ruling class organizes different groups of workers against each other. It might be "reductionism" but it's also "correct".

I've explained elsewhere that yes, you can have low-level xenophobia and personal preferences for people like oneself, but "racism" as an organized phenomenon isn't representative of "races" as real categories, but of hundreds of years of class activity to repress the working class.

The fact that racism is a real problem in the US has again and again been a major barrier to working class organizing in the United States. So, the US labour movement has a long history of organizing on a racial basis, privileging white workers, and so on. "Races" are cast as groups with common collective interests, making it credible to argue that the small black bourgeoisie, including Barack Obama, has any intent or desire to expand welfare programs for poor black people whom he's never met, and probably hates, however paternalistically. When white workers are totally abandoned by any semblance of a working class left, and the only outlet they for their legitimate rage against the recession is racist right wing populism - the liberals decide that they're just "privileged" because they're white and they're just trying to protect their race privilege against Obama. Here the liberals are very much complicit in promoting the notion that racial groups are coherent entities with common interests, which they aren't. There are lots of ignorant white workers who are racists and that's a problem, but the problem is that they're ignorant and don't understand the class basis of society and their problems, not that they're white or that the president is black.

[Aspiring Humanist]

And I actually thought America was getting better
http://www.nope.org/images/nope_logo1.gif

[Decolonize The Left]

And I actually thought America was getting better
http://www.nope.org/images/nope_logo1.gif

This is unnecessary. Please don't spam threads.

- August

[Aspiring Humanist]

I'll post how I want to thanks

[ifeelyou]

Well look. "Race" isn't a real thing, so it can't be the root cause of racism. Racism is a real social phenomenon, but it's not coming from the fact that white people and black people are different and need to respect each others' different cultures and skills and propensities to commit crimes.

"Class" is a real thing and it is the root cause of racism (as a social phenomenon). Racism is a class phenomenon whereby the ruling class organizes different groups of workers against each other. It might be "reductionism" but it's also "correct".

I've explained elsewhere that yes, you can have low-level xenophobia and personal preferences for people like oneself, but "racism" as an organized phenomenon isn't representative of "races" as real categories, but of hundreds of years of class activity to repress the working class.

The fact that racism is a real problem in the US has again and again been a major barrier to working class organizing in the United States. So, the US labour movement has a long history of organizing on a racial basis, privileging white workers, and so on. "Races" are cast as groups with common collective interests, making it credible to argue that the small black bourgeoisie, including Barack Obama, has any intent or desire to expand welfare programs for poor black people whom he's never met, and probably hates, however paternalistically. When white workers are totally abandoned by any semblance of a working class left, and the only outlet they for their legitimate rage against the recession is racist right wing populism - the liberals decide that they're just "privileged" because they're white and they're just trying to protect their race privilege against Obama. Here the liberals are very much complicit in promoting the notion that racial groups are coherent entities with common interests, which they aren't. There are lots of ignorant white workers who are racists and that's a problem, but the problem is that they're ignorant and don't understand the class basis of society and their problems, not that they're white or that the president is black.

There are so many questionable things about all of this that I don’t even know where to begin. I’ll touch on a couple of points.

Okay, I’m a little confused about what you’re saying and why you’re saying it. What exactly are you trying to articulate and why? Are you stating that because in your view class is “real” and race isn’t that engaging in racial analysis, as this show does, shouldn’t happen? If you’re committed to organizing the “working class," which is clearly comprised of members of many different kinds of racial/ethnic groups, against the “ruling elite” then things like institutional racism, unfair individual racial perceptions, and white privilege (something that even benefits the white working class) are things you’re going to have to critically engage and not dismiss or simply reduce to class.

We can sit here and discuss the origins of racism for hours and hours because the idea that class is solely responsible for racism is certainly up for debate, as Foucault and others have acknowledged (see Race and the Education of Desire: Foucault’s History of Sexuality and the Colonial Order of Things by Ann Laura Stoler). Another point I wish to bring up is your depiction of race and racism. You’ve framed these items in binary terms, i.e., black and white. Racism clearly affects many people of color, so I ask that you please try to be a little more attentive to this reality.

[Decolonize The Left]

I'll post how I want to thanks

Well gee that sure is noble of you. But since you're posting big pictures which have absolutely no relevance to the OP, you may be making it difficult for people with slow connections or proxies when they try to load the page.

- August

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'm not going to try and downplay racism or anything like that, I've seen a lot of racism in my life especially coming from people who "aren't racist". But really I would take anything from stuff like the Tyra Banks show with a huge grain of salt, shows like these are supposed to be dramatic and shocking. I got 3 1/2 minutes into the first clip and stopped watching, you can certainly believe this group of people were purposefully picked out because they were going to make comments that were shockingly racist, the Tyra Banks show is like a scripted reality show.

[jake williams]

(see Race and the Education of Desire: Foucault’s History of Sexuality and the Colonial Order of Things by Ann Laura Stoler)
Ugh one of you.


Are you stating that because in your view class is “real” and race isn’t that engaging in racial analysis, as this show does, shouldn’t happen?
This show hardly engages in "racial analysis" for what it's worth. But, I might ask - what is "racial analysis" and why should we engage in it?

I said repeatedly and explicitly that racism is a real problem and we need to comprehend it and overcome it.


“working class,"
The fuck?


which is clearly comprised of members of many different kinds of racial/ethnic groups
Duh.


things like institutional racism, unfair individual racial perceptions ... are things you’re going to have to critically engage and not dismiss
I don't disagree.


or simply reduce to class.
Why? An historical materialist analysis of class forces in the United States more or less adequately explains its history of racism. What sort of analysis are you suggesting we use instead?


white privilege (something that even benefits the white working class)
What is "white privilege" and how does it benefit the white working class?


We can sit here and discuss the origins of racism for hours and hours because the idea that class is solely responsible for racism is certainly up for debate
Not really, not in the sense that there's a demonstrable history whereby the development of racism in US history has been fundamentally and mainly shaped by the dynamics of class struggle. I mean, whether or not there are people other than me is "up for debate" if you're one of your types, but that's stupid and we have better things to do with our time. At least I do.


Another point I wish to bring up is your depiction of race and racism. You’ve framed these items in binary terms, i.e., black and white. Racism clearly affects many people of color, so I ask that you please try to be a little more attentive to this reality.
ex·am·ple
[ig-zam-puhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngl, -zahm-] noun

1. one of a number of things, or a part of something, taken to show the character of the whole: This painting is an example of his early work.

3. an instance serving for illustration; specimen: The case histories gave carefully detailed examples of this disease.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/example

[PhoenixAsh]

Fair enough...but this conditioning can be encountered everywhere in the real world. This is nothing new and shouldn't be that shocking and surprising. We all know this, we have all seen this and we have all encountered it to some extend or another.

Just four days ago in my gym there was this guy who was "keeping it realz" about the Moroccans in Holland. Part of his considerable racist and biggotted story was that whenever he encountered a group of crows (you know...the birds) he would say to his daughter: "He look there is a group of Moroccans" because, as he explained it, in a group they are nasty and alone they are cowardly just like crows. But...he went on...he didn't mean that in a racist way and didn't mean to stereotype.

How very lucky. He almost had me going there...but, its ok, because he is not a racist or anything. :rolleyes:

This is what he teaches his daughter. And unfortunately he is not the only one. And these people genuinely think they are not racist but that this is the truth. They actually take offence if you call them racist and they actually get very upset and affronted if you explain them why.

So these video's may be scripted...but they are a real example of what is going on in the real world.

[Jose Gracchus]

Racism in the modern sense never existed until bourgeois society and rule. Discrimination, culture, sure; but the modern conception of race and the social phenomenon of racism in a discernibly modern, recognizable form was inaugurated by the social triumph of the bourgeois class.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I know there is some serious racism out there, I'm just telling the OP that he shouldn't base any of his opinions off of this show. It just proves that the show could find some people that were racist. These shows are like Maury or Springer, people shouldn't take them too seriously.

[ifeelyou]

Ugh one of you.


This show hardly engages in "racial analysis" for what it's worth. But, I might ask - what is "racial analysis" and why should we engage in it?

I said repeatedly and explicitly that racism is a real problem and we need to comprehend it and overcome it.


The fuck?


Duh.


I don't disagree.


Why? An historical materialist analysis of class forces in the United States more or less adequately explains its history of racism. What sort of analysis are you suggesting we use instead?


What is "white privilege" and how does it benefit the white working class?


Not really, not in the sense that there's a demonstrable history whereby the development of racism in US history has been fundamentally and mainly shaped by the dynamics of class struggle. I mean, whether or not there are people other than me is "up for debate" if you're one of your types, but that's stupid and we have better things to do with our time. At least I do.


ex·am·ple
[ig-zam-puhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngl, -zahm-] noun

1. one of a number of things, or a part of something, taken to show the character of the whole: This painting is an example of his early work.

3. an instance serving for illustration; specimen: The case histories gave carefully detailed examples of this disease.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/example

Okay, I guess I'm one of “those,” whatever that means. What’s funny is you seem quite defensive when it comes to the thought of having to foreground race and racism, which actually brings to mind whiteness.

Racial analysis, at least for me, is foregrounding race and treating it as a significant social dimension that impacts people’s lives in real ways, a dimension of life that works in tandem with (and not necessarily before or after) other inequalities like class in systems of oppression. Why should we engage it? If you really need me to answer that then I feel bad for you.

“I said repeatedly and explicitly that racism is a real problem and we need to comprehend it and overcome it.” The problem is that you obviously treat race and racism as secondary to class, which isn’t only problematic for reasons I’ve already mentioned, but because it’s extremely divisive and in some circumstances actually alienates people of color and their experiences.

“An historical materialist analysis of class forces in the United States more or less adequately explains its history of racism”? Let’s just say that you’re 100% correct and that no one at all can ever question your materialist analysis, then good for you. However, I’m not really concerned with simplistic origin discourses and arguments. I think it’s safe to say that in this day and age class isn’t the sole impetus for racism. We see racism against people of color in all economic classes. The epistemic framework that I generally use to analyze racism is informed by feminist of color intersectional analyses because of how multiple social antagonisms are considered without necessarily making any one of them secondary or necessarily prioritizing one over another. It seems to me that the necessary reductionist prioritization of class over other social antagonisms is the product of an insidious history of whiteness that discounts race and racism.

“What is 'white privilege' and how does it benefit the white working class?” Ugh. You’re one of those. Do you honestly believe that even among the working class being white doesn’t afford you certain privilege? Do you honestly think that people of the white working class have the same racial experiences as working class people of color and carry the same racial and ethnic stigmas that working class people of color carry in the US, a nation that is severely structured by racism? If you really need me to defend the argument that white privilege to different degrees benefits white people of all economic classes then I recommend you read Peggy Macintosh, Ronald Takaki, Gloria Anzaldua, bell hooks, Jose Esteban Munoz, Ruth Frankenberg, etc. etc. etc. etc.

And yes, the development of racism can be and has been debated. However, it hasn’t been debated to remove class from discussions but rather, for some, to partly complicate the idea that class is the SOLE reason for racism. I mean, are you not at all aware of third world feminism, critical ethnic and race studies, and postcolonial studies?

Lastly, you should’ve identified the racial binary you used as one example. I've only asked you to be more sensitive to the various racial/ethnic groups that racism affects in the US because the country for a long time has constructed race as a white-black dichotomy, which has not only been used to oppress black folks but also has kept the racial experiences of other people of color invisible.

Let me be clear, I don’t object to critical class analysis. I object to reductionist statements like:


I was screaming "This is because of class!!!!!! Not race!" in my head...the whole time

—a statement you’re defending.

[LegendZ]

I'm not going to try and downplay racism or anything like that, I've seen a lot of racism in my life especially coming from people who "aren't racist". But really I would take anything from stuff like the Tyra Banks show with a huge grain of salt, shows like these are supposed to be dramatic and shocking. I got 3 1/2 minutes into the first clip and stopped watching, you can certainly believe this group of people were purposefully picked out because they were going to make comments that were shockingly racist, the Tyra Banks show is like a scripted reality show.Yeah that's why THEIR FRIENDS wanted them to go on the show. Like Christian was put on the show by HIS ROOMMATE. never mind that ofc

[Aspiring Humanist]

Well gee that sure is noble of you. But since you're posting big pictures which have absolutely no relevance to the OP, you may be making it difficult for people with slow connections or proxies when they try to load the page.

- August

Really isn't that big, not worth complaining about

[Die Rote Fahne]

This person has decided that the issue has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with class-- despite the show's analysis of clear racial perceptions. This, my friend, is a minimization (if not outright dismissal) of race in favor of class.
Sooo, you think that class has no part in this?

Race is a social construct.

[jake williams]

Okay, I guess I'm one of “those,” whatever that means.
It means you're one of those aggravating intellectuals very into elaborate words and concepts and not very into actually talking about the real world in a serious way that means anything. It's all well and good to talk about "intersectionality" because we all certainly recognize that not all black people are men and not all women are straight and so on and so forth, but when it's used an excuse to make the case that everyone is "different" and there are no useful categories for understanding social life and there are no groups with common collective interests and the world is simply infinitely and arbitrarily complex and so we can't do anything - then what you're doing is preventing the left from overcoming oppression and exploitation, and you're only on the side of those with a vested interest in maintaining those systems.


What’s funny is you seem quite defensive when it comes to the thought of having to foreground race and racism, which actually brings to mind whiteness.
You seem quite defensive when being asked to clarify what the fuck you're talking about.


Racial analysis, at least for me, is foregrounding race and treating it as a significant social dimension that impacts people’s lives in real ways, a dimension of life that works in tandem with (and not necessarily before or after) other inequalities like class in systems of oppression.
You're not answering the question. What does this actually mean? What actual insights does this give to the world?


The problem is that you obviously treat race and racism as secondary to class, which isn’t only problematic for reasons I’ve already mentioned, but because it’s extremely divisive and in some circumstances actually alienates people of color and their experiences.
I think you're confused about several things.

First, there's a distinction between analytic primacy - class is clearly a causative factor in a way race isn't, it determines the fundamentals of social reality in a way race doesn't, and so on - and "moral primacy" in some abstract sense.

Regarding that "moral primacy" though, the whole game of deciding "who is more oppressed". If you're trying to say we shouldn't abstractly say that people who are oppressed by X system of oppression are more oppressed than people who are oppressed by Y system of oppression, you might be right, but let's be serious. Being part of an economic class is fundamentally to be exploited and oppressed. You can't be part of a "lower class" and not be oppressed, even in principle. You can be gay, or a woman, or black, and not be oppressed. Barack Obama is not oppressed in any meaningful sense; to suggest he is stretches the definition of "oppression" and makes it totally meaningless. Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, it just means that the difference between living in the ghetto and living in the White House is bigger than difference between living in a poor white neighbourhood and living in a poor black neighbourhood. There's also no intrinsic reason that being a poor white person is better than being a poor black person, but there are intrinsic and definite reasons that being a rich white person is basically always better than being a poor white person.

None of this negates the fact that poor black people are in part poor because of racism; it's certainly true that there have been real historic problems involving access to education, housing, credit and so on. But the real problem for poor black people is that they are poor - not that they are black. People who actually have to be poor, or black, realize this; people who understand that having black skin is not intrinsically bad, but not being able to feed your kids is intrinsically bad realize this; if you don't, I find it highly offensive that you would suggest or imply that your views or comments on social life are valuable.


However, I’m not really concerned with simplistic origin discourses and arguments.
You mean you don't care about history and talking about things in their actual historical context, and you don't care about the differences between superficial and underlying social processes, differences we have to understand if we're actually going to change the world, something you don't care about either.


I think it’s safe to say that in this day and age class isn’t the sole impetus for racism.
Then you're mistaken.


We see racism against people of color in all economic classes.
Abstractly we see racism against everyone by and against all kinds of people, but that's a totally idiotic way to understand racism. What's your point? A mostly white bourgeoisie uses racism as a way to divide an ethnically heterogeneous working class. What does the white bourgeoisie have to lose from those workers targetting their racism not simply against black workers, but black capitalists? Clearly the anti-Obama bourgeoisie is benefitting from racism; that's where McCain got most of his votes, and the Republican strategists all know it.


It seems to me that the necessary reductionist prioritization of class over other social antagonisms is the product of an insidious history of whiteness that discounts race and racism.
Then you're mistaken.


Ugh. You’re one of those. Do you honestly believe that even among the working class being white doesn’t afford you certain privilege?
Well, if "being less likely to be randomly murdered by cops" is a privilege, than I suppose so. Do you think this is a privilege?

You're missing my point though. You're getting huffy and offended, not answering the question. I asked you to actually explain what you think any of your academic bullshit actually entails, which you can't, because you folks virtually never even attempt to relate your "work" to the real world.


I mean, are you not at all aware of third world feminism, critical ethnic and race studies, and postcolonial studies?
I'm aware of them, I just think they're useless.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Yeah that's why THEIR FRIENDS wanted them to go on the show. Like Christian was put on the show by HIS ROOMMATE. never mind that ofc
How does that invalidate anything I just said, these people are vetted before they go on the show to make sure they're going to say things that make people go "Wow did they just say that" and it's all voluntary. Christian wasn't put on the show by his roommate, he put himself on the show.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Touche to Revleft for conning me into watching a full espisode of Tyra. :lol:

I bet I said "are you fucking kidding me," 50 times per video. What really struck a chord with me was the video with Rami, that really pissed me off. Even when a sis pointed out that the man was Sikh, not Muslim, that white dude, Christian was like "I don't care, they're all Arabic, all Moslems," and shit. The sheer ignorance of this statement pissed me off, Sikhs are from the Punjab region of India and have more in common with Hindus and Buddhists than Muslims, putting aside historical 'differences' between Sikhs and Muslims. To me what I saw was a Sikh carrying some goods, probably for work, I definately did not see a suspicious terrorist with a package bomb. Further, as someone who is both Arab and Muslim (even if I'm a 'bad' Muslim) and coming from a Muslim background it personally disgusts me to hear Rami's comments about his own race and heritage. Especially where he makes his mother take of her hijab if she wants to spend time with him in public. I would never ask my mum to stop wearing hijab or for that matter tell my sisters they should wear hijab, both requests are disgusting and sexist in my opinion.

I also don't understand how the test group could arrive at some of the conclusions they did given the footage they saw. For example, the women with 3 children was th emost glaring example. Both women looked like they come from the same class, probably middle-class background, a home with a decent income coming in. The black women didn't look at all like she came from a struggling, working class background given the clothes that she and her children were wearing, atleast not currently, definately not the 'hood-rat' stereotype those two white idiots were constantly throwing up.

Even Christian's roommate, seems to come from a petite-bourgeois background, trust fund, better off position than himself and yet, he still arrives at the conclusions that he's a theif, drug dealer, etc. It just amazes me that people would come to these conclusions despite other variables and indications that even their own "engrained," perceptions of someone based upon race may be wrong.

I couldn't even really stand to watch the children section of the show because at this point, I was already to pissed off about everything else. As soon as that little girl said "because white people make very good bosses," I was like done. It did make me feel better to here the younger generation saying skin color doesn't matter and that they'd vote for Obama considering the context of the entire show.

What also pissed me off was Tyra's percieved fakeness during the entire episode and her just vomiting liberal talking points, it made it seem like she was just exploiting the entire thing, didn't really give a fuck about the social experiment and just wanted a 'good show' and better rating.

[ifeelyou]

It means you're one of those aggravating intellectuals very into elaborate words and concepts and not very into actually talking about the real world in a serious way that means anything. It's all well and good to talk about "intersectionality" because we all certainly recognize that not all black people are men and not all women are straight and so on and so forth, but when it's used an excuse to make the case that everyone is "different" and there are no useful categories for understanding social life and there are no groups with common collective interests and the world is simply infinitely and arbitrarily complex and so we can't do anything - then what you're doing is preventing the left from overcoming oppression and exploitation, and you're only on the side of those with a vested interest in maintaining those systems.

And you’re one of those aggravating self-righteous, overly simplistic class reductionists who thinks he has all the answers. Actually, the traditional approach to intersectionality is based on the idea that there are useful categories for understanding social life, categories that oftentimes intersect and produce various kinds of social effects and experiences. Perhaps you’ve had bad encounters with some people who engage in intersectional analysis, but it seems to me that you don’t fully comprehend what this frame of thought is actually about. You come off as hostile to something you clearly have a limited understanding of. Social theorists like Gloria Anzaldua, someone who played a significant role in developing intersectionality, would’ve never stated, “there are no groups with common collective interests and the world is simply infinitely and arbitrarily complex and so we can't do anything.” In fact, she would've rigorously argued against such an idea. I recommend you read something like Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Anzaldua if you want a better understanding of social analysis from an intersectional perspective by one of intersectionality's pioneers.


You seem quite defensive when being asked to clarify what the fuck you're talking about.

Actually, you seem to be confused about this whole conversation. AGAIN, I’m not objecting to critical class analysis, I’m objecting to this: “I was screaming 'This is because of class!!!!!! Not race!' in my head...the whole time.”

Ironically, you also actually seem to disagree with this statement to a certain extent. Whether you recognize it or not, you're critiquing it by highlighting how racism plays a significant role in social life, which is fundamentally different from how this person has said that race essentially has nothing to do with anything. Believe it or not, I actually don’t disagree with some of the things you’ve brought up throughout this whole discussion. One of the problems I have, though, is how you’ve attempted to hijack this thread on racial analysis by bringing up the topic of the historical origins of racism to solely reduce explorations of race and racism to class, arguing that classism is the “real” problem—which, AGAIN, is divisive and alienates people of color and their experiences.


You're not answering the question. What does this actually mean? What actual insights does this give to the world?

WTF? Unbelievable. LOL. It means that sustained and, hopefully, critical analyses of race and operations of racism happen in order to come up with effective, sensitive, and comprehensive solutions to fighting against oppression.


I think you're confused about several things.

First, there's a distinction between analytic primacy - class is clearly a causative factor in a way race isn't, it determines the fundamentals of social reality in a way race doesn't, and so on - and "moral primacy" in some abstract sense.

Ugh. I just don’t think it’s that simple. “Race,” however constructed it may be, also plays a significant role in determining the fundamentals of social reality. This is my point. You can sit here and choose to argue over and over that you think class is the root cause of all social inequality across the world, and—however annoying and simplistic I might find your belief—that’s fine. You actually don’t have to think that things like society, history, and culture are a bit more complicated than saying everything boils down to class, even though I do. But, again, one of the problems for me is how you’ve attempted to hijack this thread by radically and insensitively changing the direction of such.


Regarding that "moral primacy" though, the whole game of deciding "who is more oppressed". If you're trying to say we shouldn't abstractly say that people who are oppressed by X system of oppression are more oppressed than people who are oppressed by Y system of oppression, you might be right, but let's be serious. Being part of an economic class is fundamentally to be exploited and oppressed. You can't be part of a "lower class" and not be oppressed, even in principle. You can be gay, or a woman, or black, and not be oppressed. Barack Obama is not oppressed in any meaningful sense; to suggest he is stretches the definition of "oppression" and makes it totally meaningless.

This clearly depends on how we define oppression; economics isn’t the only aspect of it. Obviously, there are other things like differences in racial appearance and culture that contribute to the various workings of oppression.


Doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, it just means that the difference between living in the ghetto and living in the White House is bigger than difference between living in a poor white neighbourhood and living in a poor black neighbourhood.

I don’t know about this. Again, you seem to be reducing everything down to economics when there are other aspects to consider more critically like ethnic culture.


There's also no intrinsic reason that being a poor white person is better than being a poor black person,

If by “no intrinsic reason” you mean no universal, pre-social reason, then I agree with you. However, there’s still the issue of white privilege that I’ll comment on below.


but there are intrinsic and definite reasons that being a rich white person is basically always better than being a poor white person.

I can agree with this.


None of this negates the fact that poor black people are in part poor because of racism; it's certainly true that there have been real historic problems involving access to education, housing, credit and so on. But the real problem for poor black people is that they are poor - not that they are black. People who actually have to be poor, or black, realize this; people who understand that having black skin is not intrinsically bad, but not being able to feed your kids is intrinsically bad realize this; if you don't, I find it highly offensive that you would suggest or imply that your views or comments on social life are valuable.

You and this “class is the real problem” ideology. Damn. Of course not being able to feed your kids is intrinsically bad. WTF? And of course being black isn’t intrinsically bad. I never said that. However, the ways in which hegemonic culture to different extents constructs unfair ideologies about and perceptions of people of color of all economic classes is also intrinsically bad. If you don’t realize this, then I actually find it highly offensive that you would suggest or imply that your views or comments on social life are valuable.


You mean you don't care about history and talking about things in their actual historical context, and you don't care about the differences between superficial and underlying social processes, differences we have to understand if we're actually going to change the world, something you don't care about either.

I actually care a great deal about history, social processes, and changing the world. I’m just suspicious of the ideology you’re espousing.


Then you're mistaken.

No I’m not.


Abstractly we see racism against everyone by and against all kinds of people, but that's a totally idiotic way to understand racism. What's your point?

The point is that the different forms of racism people of color experience through interacting with social institutions and white people of all classes shouldn’t be dismissed nor downplayed, as you’re seemingly trying to do. Racism between different people of color is a different matter and needs to be addressed as such, a topic for another time.


Then you're mistaken.

No I’m not.


Well, if "being less likely to be randomly murdered by cops" is a privilege, than I suppose so. Do you think this is a privilege?

You're missing my point though. You're getting huffy and offended, not answering the question. I asked you to actually explain what you think any of your academic bullshit actually entails, which you can't, because you folks virtually never even attempt to relate your "work" to the real world.

Your question about privilege is articulated in such a fuckin’ problematic way. What you’re suggesting is so damn offensive. The issue here isn’t that cops are “randomly” targeting people and that blacks and Latinos are coincidentally disproportionate victims of this behavior. The issue is RACIAL PROFILING, which functions as a privilege for white people.

I’ve already explained what I think, and I have no problem relating my work to the real world. Defensive assholes like you are just idiots who believe they’re “right” and have reduced the world's complexity to a single social dimension. Ridiculous.


I'm aware of them, I just think they're useless.

And this is why I said earlier that class determinism alienates people of color and their experiences.

Anyhow, I’m done with this conversation.

[ifeelyou]

Sooo, you think that class has no part in this?

Race is a social construct.

Okay? :laugh:

[Nox]

This person has decided that the issue has absolutely nothing to do with race and everything to do with class-- despite the show's analysis of clear racial perceptions. This, my friend, is a minimization (if not outright dismissal) of race in favor of class.

I think what he means is that their problems are caused by class and not race.

I could be wrong though.

[Nox]

Okay? :laugh:

That's a key part of Marxism...

Race is a social construct in the sense that all racial stereotypes and non-physical differences between races are a social construct, e.g. those stereotypes are untrue and those differences don't exist. (might need some clarification here)

[#FF0000]

In one of the videos, they show the people a video of a black woman who looks hella rich with three well-dressed kids, and then a white woman who in sweats w/ three kids in pretty typical wal-mart clothes.

they all thought the black woman was on welfare and was a single parent and that the white woman had her shit together.

So. yeah.

[ifeelyou]

That's a key part of Marxism...

Race is a social construct in the sense that all racial stereotypes and non-physical differences between races are a social construct, e.g. those stereotypes are untrue and those differences don't exist. (might need some clarification here)

Thanks for the clarification, but I already know. :tongue_smilie:

[jake williams]

Perhaps you’ve had bad encounters with some people who engage in intersectional analyses
This being one of many, yes.


it seems to me that you don’t fully comprehend what this frame of thought is actually about.
I can't be fucked to "fully comprehend" it because the sort of work you're talking about is being produced by professionals whose primary paid vocation is the generation of grand libraries of meaningless drivel made only less pleasant by their linguistic if not conceptual complexity. No more do I "fully comprehend" the nuances of astrology, Klingon grammar or Mormon theology. I don't need to go to BYU to tell their missionaries to fuck off, and I don't need to take a couple years off from my life to read whatever it is you're suggesting I read (frankly I've spent enough time doing it already) to tell you to fuck off.


Whether you recognize it or not, you're critiquing it by highlighting how racism plays a significant role in social life, which is fundamentally different from how this person has said that race essentially has nothing to do with anything.
To make it clear, as I probably should have initially, I don't actually agree with the implication that there is no evidence of racism in the videos, if there was such an implication. The point though that phenomena being discussed as "racial" phenomena are in fact masked class phenomena is correct. It's unsurprising that people would conflate race and class because the whole history of racism itself has been predicated on doing this, but that doesn't absolve one from doing it oneself.


which, AGAIN, is divisive and alienates people of color and their experiences.
Normally I wouldn't bother, but the fact is that the demonstrated history of racism is what it is whether or not it alienates or divides people. I think your whole implication is irrelevant though because the understanding of racism as something with concrete historical origins allows us to explain why it is what it is. It allows us to, again, explain for the purposes of changing the social order which generates racism; it's precisely because we're concerned about the lived consequences of racism that we need to overcome it and to overcome it we need to understand it. The origins of modern racism (again, as distinct from prehistoric xenophobia, which is a group of sentiments, not a system of oppression) are inseparable from the development of class society and we need to understand it as such.

There's no reason for workers of colour to be offended by this. Is the racism they're subject to more bearable if it is prehistoric? If it exists beyond the realm of specific, comprehensible (and transcendable) history? Would they or anyone else be better off if our explanations for their problems were more complex but less informative?


WTF? Unbelievable. LOL. It means that sustained and, hopefully, critical analyses of race and the operation of racism happen in order to come up with effective, sensitive, and comprehensive solutions to fighting against oppression.
You still haven't actually answered the question. Give me anything like an example of how what you're advocating enhances political action at all (or even just accurately describes reality). I'm well aware of what sort of analysis you think you're doing; I'm not clear what you think it actually produces, if anything.


You actually don’t have to think that things like society, history, and culture are a bit more complicated than saying everything boils down to class, even though I do.
Look, I have more than enough education and confidence in my own intellectual capacities to put up with your bullshit condescension. Others will not, at least if your scope of concern and action extends about three feet from a university campus. To their discredit and yours if you'd like to carry any pretense to actually trying to improve the world.


If by “no intrinsic reason” you mean no universal, pre-social reason, then I agree with you.
It's not about pre-social reasons - it's the fact that the modern system of racism in the United States is almost entirely historically confined to the development of class struggle in that particular society and its predecessor forms almost entirely historically confined to theirs. I'm not denying that there exists some sort of zero-level basis for "I prefer people more like me than people not like me" but it never has become or can become anything like a transhistorical social system.


However, the ways in which hegemonic culture to different extents constructs unfair ideologies about and perceptions of people of color of all economic classes is also intrinsically bad.
Yes, this sort of racism is intrinsically bad, but its "hegemonic culture" is also intrinsically a part of American capitalist society - that is, a class society. In particular a product of the hegemonic class, primarily, that is the capitalist class. There is no "hegemonic culture" that exists abstractly or independent of the fundamental dynamics of the society in which it exists. White peasant settlers, slaves and bonded labours didn't show up in the US to oppress black people (or native peoples), whatever relative benefits their descendants might have derived from the systems and structures of racism eventually instituted and institutionalized in the United States. (These benefits, for what it's worth, mostly entailing the "psychological profits" of feeling free from the semi-arbitrary violence exacted against non-white workers, slaves, and so on; on only exceptionally rare occasions has it ever entailed actual "privileges" in the form of material concessions from the ruling class). But white planters and business people showed up in the United States only with the intention of exploiting labour, peasant worker and slave. American racism developed when it was discovered that it was very useful to the actual project of exploiting labour.


The point is that the different forms of racism people of color experience through interacting with social institutions and white people of all classes shouldn’t be dismissed nor downplayed, as you’re seemingly trying to do.
I'm not trying to downplay it at all. If anything I'm trying to delegitimize its causes - to attack the ideological foundations of racism as something other than a natural expression of our human desires to hate each other, but instead a product of concrete historical developments in the history of efforts to dominate the labour of all "races" of workers.

But I'm also trying to do something more important, something you types never understand. There is a qualitative and essential difference between class as a social system and other systems of exploitation, oppression and domination. The class relationship must be one of exploitation, oppression and domination. This is not at all true of the relationship between men and women, between different colours of workers, between different cultural groups or age groups or sexual orientations of workers.

Put another way, there are fundamental contradictions between classes that do not exist between different genders or races of people. These cannot be overcome by collective work or compromise. But, for example, black workers and white workers can and must work together to overthrow both class oppression and racial oppression. The implication that there is some fundamental and transhistorical contradiction between the interests of white workers and others which cannot be overcome by joint, collective struggle is the main intended consequence of racism - and you're complicit in it. The way in which racism is intended to weaken class struggle - convincing workers of different races that their interests are primarily divergent and contradictory rather than primarily collective - is something that the "left intellectuals" are largely themselves advocating.


Your question about privilege is articulated in such a fuckin’ problematic way. What you’re suggesting is so damn offensive. The issue here isn’t that cops are “randomly” targeting people and that blacks and Latinos are coincidentally disproportionate victims of this behavior. The issue is RACIAL PROFILING, which functions as a privilege for white people.
Well, it kind of is random, in the sense that it's a historical accident that people with white skin came to dominate American society. Latino youth aren't murdered by police because they're Latino. They're murdered by police because the fascist state's response to their poverty is violent repression. But how on earth does this benefit white workers?

Police almost never murder wealthy non-white people. When on very rare occasions it does happen, the "hegemonic culture's" response is utter repugnance. It's an unfortunate side-effect of one particular weapon of class warfare (racism), one which many white capitalists are actually a little offended by. It's a price they're willing to put up with, sure, but it's an unintended consequence. No one benefits if a black capitalist is killed by a white cop. White cop doesn't. White workers don't. Their white capitalist competitors might, but again, that's the whole point of what I'm saying. But more importantly, the police state black capitalists in the US have to deal with has almost nothing in common with the police state black workers have to deal with, or for that matter, the police state white workers have to deal with.

My actual reference to "randomness" in that context though is the fact that black people are more likely to be accidentally killed by police than white people are. That's separate from the intentional killings of a disproportionately racialized poor that are part of the ordinary operations of the capitalist state, and the two shouldn't be conflated. That the inefficiency of fascism leads to my unintended relative safety (as a poor white person who lives in poor neighbourhoods, where I'm a lot less safe from white cops than are capitalists of colour) is not a "privilege".


And this is why I said earlier that class determinism alienates people of color and their experiences.
No, what alienates most "people of colour", as well as virtually everyone else not presently working at or studying at a university, is abstruse academic bullshit which only rarely pays tribute to some vague analogy with reality. You haven't talked at all about any experiences you're alleging I'm disregarding for which you are actually proposing some better explanation or solution.

This is something you would know were you to actually talk to anyone off-campus.


Anyhow, I’m done with this conversation.
I kind of hope you are, but it's not personal. I hope we can start having serious conversation of how the world actually works, why, and how we can do it differently.