New York City falling apart -- literally

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

HARLEM — A water and gas main break on St. Nicholas Avenue sent a geyser shooting up into the air and opened up a gaping hole in the street Friday afternoon, witnesses and authorities said.

The massive crater appeared in front of a bus stop on St. Nicholas Avenue, near 152nd Street, at around 12:30 p.m. while fire crews were investigating the smell of gas in the area, according to FDNY Battalion Chief Michael Brown.

Woody Valez, 41, a cook who lives on the block, was walking to the store when he smelled gas and heard an explosion.

"It was a loud boom," he said. "No one knew what happened until we saw the water shooting in the air. It was a lot of water."

Fire officials cordoned off the block, but no buildings were evacuated because there was no sign of elevated gas levels. There were no immediate reports of injuries.

Officials from the city's Department of Environmental Protection said that a 12-inch water main that was installed in 1956 had ruptured, leaving 100 to 150 families without water on St. Nicholas Avenue between 150th and 153rd streets.

Service was expected to be restored Friday evening.

Con Ed spokesman Allan Drury said that the utility had received several reports from customers who said that they had no gas. They believe that water may have gotten into the gas main.

Workers from both agencies were trying to isolate the source of the leak. When the gas line is capped, they can start fixing the water main, officials said.

Residents said that the cavernous hole has been plaguing the block for years.

"There has always been a sinkhole there. Its always been caving in," said filmmaker Greg Whitmore, 35.

In fact, the hole had grown so large in recent months that residents put a garbage can in it to warn motorists.

He said workers would come by from time to time to fix the hole, but the problem had been getting worse since May.

On St. Nicholas Avenue and 151st Street, Celeste Hollman sat across the street from her building with the six people that live in her apartment.

"I told my children to pack two outfits because I'm not taking any chances," she said while holding a hastily-packed plastic bag full of clothes between her legs.

"I'm not going back until I know they have fixed that pipe. I'll sit here all night if I have to. My daughter is nervous and scared."

Other residents stocked up on supplies. Reynaldo Morel bought four gallons of water from a nearby bodega. "The water is dirty," he said.

Express trains on the A line, which runs underneath St. Nicholas Avenue, were being rerouted to the local line between 145th Street and 168th Street, according to the MTA's website.

The agency said that delays can be expected on the A and C lines.

Because of the break, B train service was suspended along the entire length of the line, from Bedford Park in The Bronx to Brighton Beach in Brooklyn.

There was also no D train service between 145th and 167th streets.

http://www.dnainfo.com/20110812/harlem/water-gas-main-breaks-open-gaping-sinkhole-on-st-nicholas-avenue#ixzz1UqfdA2Do

More disintegration builds. Maybe you remember the explosion of a steam pipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_York_City_steam_explosion) from the century-old system in Manhattan in 2007? That was the 13th such explosion in the last 2 decades.

http://glennthursfundamentals.journalism.cuny.edu/files/2010/10/NYCsubwayrats.jpg

Welcome to the world capital of global capitalism!

[KC]

Just to note, these aren't technically sinkholes, they're washouts. We have had two in Milwaukee in the past year alone that I know of, one during a really bad storm and another where a water main burst and washed out the soil supporting the road bed. Both were fixed fairly quickly, though.

If you want to talk about the US "literally falling apart" you should check out the absolutely abysmal state of American infrastructure. Thousands of bridges across the US are basically about to collapse, roads are in disrepair everywhere, highways are crumbling, sewers are seeping raw sewage into the groundwater/drinking water, etc. And nobody's footing the bill to repair this stuff because it's not deemed important enough by local municipalities/county/state/federal governments to warrant the cost.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This is is a part of that infrastructure. Roads, water pipe, steam pipes, gas pipes and subways are involved here. And all are in terrible shape. But I don't think the lack of repairs is due to the choices of political bodies in isolation. It reflects what's going on with capitalism and thus social reproduction.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Just to note, these aren't technically sinkholes, they're washouts. We have had two in Milwaukee in the past year alone that I know of, one during a really bad storm and another where a water main burst and washed out the soil supporting the road bed. Both were fixed fairly quickly, though.

If you want to talk about the US "literally falling apart" you should check out the absolutely abysmal state of American infrastructure. Thousands of bridges across the US are basically about to collapse, roads are in disrepair everywhere, highways are crumbling, sewers are seeping raw sewage into the groundwater/drinking water, etc. And nobody's footing the bill to repair this stuff because it's not deemed important enough by local municipalities/county/state/federal governments to warrant the cost.

That's assuming that US infrastructure built was great in the first place. North American infrastructure hasn't copied the European model which has, among other things, lots of bridges in any given city.

[RED DAVE]

That's assuming that US infrastructure built was great in the first place. North American infrastructure hasn't copied the European model which has, among other things, lots of bridges in any given city.Must you add something irrelevant to every thread? For example, New York City has something like ten major bridges, several dozen minor ones, and four major vehicular tunnels, plus the world's largest subway system, including subway tunnels. They are all in bad repair but in the first place ... .

RED DAVE

[Die Neue Zeit]

NYC is an exception to the rule.

[Rusty Shackleford]

That's assuming that US infrastructure built was great in the first place. North American infrastructure hasn't copied the European model which has, among other things, lots of bridges in any given city.
that is true. in most towns that ive been in that straddle rivers, theres never more than maybe 4 bridges. in one of them, there was only 2 and they were 20 min apart and always congested. in a town of 80,000!

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

That's assuming that US infrastructure built was great in the first place. North American infrastructure hasn't copied the European model which has, among other things, lots of bridges in any given city.

I'm not sure what you mean by this "number of bridges", because really the amount of bridges will depend on the need as well as the ease of bridging it (how large the river is, etc). The most noticeable difference between the U.S. and Western Europe in terms of infrastructure is that the U.S. has a tendency towards less maintenance and reconstruction, which is most obvious in the older cities of the North-east such as New York, where a lot of the infrastructure has been suffering under endless years (way back since the 1940's) of deferred maintenance that would cost enormous sums to correct and therefore is uninteresting to capitalist politics.

In some cases it was indeed built bad from the start, but this is not really more common in the U.S. than in Europe, it's just that there is more aversion to publicly fund reconstructions and improvements to the existing infrastructure. Much of the New York City's steam-based district heating system should for example have almost all its pipes replaced (and the New York City metro should have all the water pumping system and piping replaced, too). A good comparison is that the London Underground in the 1980's was in a similar dreadful condition as the New York City metro, but large reconstruction and modernisation programme allowed it to be improved, something which has not been done on the same scale in the NYC case.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ North American infrastructure in general has not inherited one of the better legacies left behind by feudal infrastructure. Consider Moscow, for instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_in_Moscow

[Rusty Shackleford]

^^^ North American infrastructure in general has not inherited one of the better legacies left behind by feudal infrastructure. Consider Moscow, for instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_in_Moscow
looks like most of those bridges were built in the 30s and 50s.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ They were built, I think, to replace older bridges. Remember, under feudalism people travelled by foot or by horse carriage.

[bricolage]

New York City has something like ten major bridges, several dozen minor ones,
out of interest how many of them can you drive across?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

^^^ North American infrastructure in general has not inherited one of the better legacies left behind by feudal infrastructure. Consider Moscow, for instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridges_in_Moscow

I fail to see what the relevance of the number of bridges are? Moscow has a fairly small river (much smaller than East River and Hudson, apart from outside of Moscow of course, where, as a result, there are very few old bridges). Many bridges in Moscow were also completely rebuilt in the 1930's. Most importantly, those are small rivers and bridges within a dense urban area divided by a small(ish) river are often bridged rather easily and frequently, as in London, Paris and Moscow.

Similar bridges were built in the United States as well, and some places have very large amounts of bridges, and far too (albeit spouting a rather bad design standard) many urban motorways.


[QUOTE=RED DAVE;2205221]New York City has something like ten major bridges, several dozen minor ones,[QUOTE]
out of interest how many of them can you drive across?

Most. There's only one railway bridge (from the Park Avenue approach to Grand Central) and an additional 14 tunnels serving metro and railway lines.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I fail to see what the relevance of the number of bridges are? Moscow has a fairly small river (much smaller than East River and Hudson, apart from outside of Moscow of course, where, as a result, there are very few old bridges). Many bridges in Moscow were also completely rebuilt in the 1930's. Most importantly, those are small rivers and bridges within a dense urban area divided by a small(ish) river are often bridged rather easily and frequently, as in London, Paris and Moscow.

Similar bridges were built in the United States as well, and some places have very large amounts of bridges, and far too (albeit spouting a rather bad design standard) many urban motorways.

As I said to Rusty, Moscow rebuilt those bridges. Feudal infrastructure (lots of bridges) took into account people travelling either by foot or by horse carriage.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

As I said to Rusty, Moscow rebuilt those bridges. Feudal infrastructure (lots of bridges) took into account people travelling either by foot or by horse carriage.

As I said, they were rebuilt in the 1930's (and some added). But the U.S. has those bridges too (many built from the 1700's serving horse carriages) and so on. There just doesn't happen to be an major urban area densely formed around a small river as in Moscow, and therefore what appears to be a lack of urban bridges. (Boston, Providence, etc has numerous smaller bridges of the urban variety along its older districts of a similar nature to what you would see in feudal Europe.)

[KC]

That's assuming that US infrastructure built was great in the first place.

No, it's not assuming anything you fucking idiot.


North American infrastructure hasn't copied the European model which has, among other things, lots of bridges in any given city.

What the fuck are you even talking about? God you're a dumbass.


I fail to see what the relevance of the number of bridges are?

There is no relevance whatsoever. The resident dumbfuck just likes poking his fat head into threads and adding something to make himself sound smart when he just sounds like a moron.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

NYC is an exception to the rule.You really don't know what you're talking about.

Pittsburgh is seat of the 22nd largest metro area in the U.S. It has 446 bridges within the city limits. The county it belongs to has 2,000.

There are many, many more examples.

And BTW, NYC doesn't have nearly enough bridges. There's only one road bridge (and two road tunnels) into Manhattan from New Jersey. That one bridge is the busiest bridge in the world as a result.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Let's also not forget some other factors when talking about Europe:

1. A lot of it was wiped out and then rebuilt after WW2.

"Especially damaged was transportation infrastructure, as railways, bridges, and docks had been specifically targeted by air strikes, while much merchant shipping had been sunk. Although most small towns and villages in Western Europe had not suffered as much damage, the destruction of transportation left them economically isolated. None of these problems could be easily remedied, as most nations engaged in the war had exhausted their treasuries in its execution" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
2. The very real threat of war on "home turf" persisted from the end the end of the war until the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, and even after. There was a real need to be able to move war materiel, people and supplies quickly and efficiently.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

We're going to keep hearing stories like this, so long as the ruling classes display more interest in enriching themselves than in maintaining civilisation. The question is of course, is there a "breaking point" where the degradation of infrastructure becomes too great even for the arch-kleptocrats to ignore and if so, when is it likely to be reached?

[RED DAVE]

New York City has something like ten major bridges, several dozen minor ones
out of interest how many of them can you drive across?All the majors and most of the minors. There are very few bridges that are purely for subways, trains or pedestrians.

RED DAVE

[RadioRaheem84]

can some mod please give KC a verbal warning for responding like that and adding nothing to the discussion.

[RadioRaheem84]

I also want to disagree with DNZ's perspective on American cities. Boston, MA has to be one of the most pedestrian friendly cities I have ever been to. Their transportation is pretty damn good.

US cities do need work though. They're in bad shape.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ When I said "an exception to the rule," I didn't mean that NYC was the only exception. Indeed, two other examples were raised in the discussion.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

We're going to keep hearing stories like this, so long as the ruling classes display more interest in enriching themselves than in maintaining civilisation. The question is of course, is there a "breaking point" where the degradation of infrastructure becomes too great even for the arch-kleptocrats to ignore and if so, when is it likely to be reached? How's this for a "breaking point?" In 2007, a major bridge broke into pieces and fell into a river, killing 13 people and injuring 145. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

http://www.fox21online.com/files/images/I-35%20W%20Bridge%20Collapse.jpg

Nothing has changed since then. Things continue to get worse.

Why? Because it's not about what happens, or what some group of people thinks should be done. It's about the workings of capitalism, and the state serving the needs of capital.

So the question becomes: what is going on with capital, and how far will we let things go before we abolish it and take control of society ourselves?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Boston, MA ... transportation is pretty damn good.

Compared to what? Have you been to Western Europe or East Asia (Japan, South Korea and Hong Kong specifically)?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How's this for a "breaking point?" In 2007, a major bridge broke into pieces and fell into a river, killing 13 people and injuring 145. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

http://www.fox21online.com/files/images/I-35%20W%20Bridge%20Collapse.jpg

Nothing has changed since then. Things continue to get worse.

Why? Because it's not about what happens, or what some group of people thinks should be done. It's about the workings of capitalism & the state serving the needs of capital.

I would have thought the needs of capital would be poorly served by crumbling bridges - the politicos and CEOs may not care about any particular bridge collapsing, but the more often such things happen then the greater the likelyhood of it affecting them.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

BTW, it's not just the cities that are falling to pieces. It's the entire infrastructure.

I remember when a bridge was closed in the small town of West Newton, PA after inspection crews noticed pieces of the bridge falling off. They used to manufacture things there. This is what's left.

I also remember when they suddenly widened and paved a stretch of road in rural SW PA that had been neglected for decades. It turned out to be for trucks coming in for new mining and fracking operations.

There's a popular joke in that part of the state. If you want to find your way to a coal mine, just follow the only good road.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I would have thought the needs of capital would be poorly served by crumbling bridges - the politicos and CEOs may not care about any particular bridge collapsing, but the more often such things happen then the greater the likelyhood of it affecting them.

Although they would, technically, there is an up-side to poor infrastructure and decreased spending thereupon (both for public transport and roadways; that is, up-side for the capitalists): privatisation. More specifically, toll-roads. There have been, at various times, suggestions to privatise public motorways and make them tolled (and the toll roads are often owned and financed by venture capitalists who benefit from having constant revenue in their little portfolios).

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I would have thought the needs of capital would be poorly served by crumbling bridges - the politicos and CEOs may not care about any particular bridge collapsing, but the more often such things happen then the greater the likelyhood of it affecting them.I don't know how many CEOs are driving themselves to work during rush hour every day. But anyway, that's the point here. It's not even necessarily about the personal needs of individual capitalists. It's about the ability of capitalism to reproduce itself (or not).

I mean NYC's mayor "King Mike" Bloomberg is one of the richest men in the world. And yet he rides the broken down, rat-infested subway regularly. That hasn't stopped the transit authority from closing booths, laying off workers, removing the number of operators on trains, etc. It hasn't stopped an increase in the rat infestation, it hasn't lead to any kind of air conditioning or ventilation system to prevent people from dying from the heat as happened in June (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-06-02/local/29627388_1_subway-train-manhattan-subway-platform-straphanger). (Of course this guy, who is labeled as NYC's first subway riding mayor, is actually chauffeured to a distant subway stop by his personal detail.. when he rides it. It turns out that he now rides it only a few days a month.)

[RadioRaheem84]

Compared to what? Have you been to Western Europe or East Asia (Japan, South Korea and Hong Kong specifically)?

compared to Houston, TX where there is NO public transportation and if you do not have a car, you're beating your feet like a nomad.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You can't compare Boston or NYC to the rest of the U.S. and say it has good public transportation. Most of the U.S. has no real public transportation to speak of. NYC has the most extensive public transportation system in the country, and compared to places like Seoul or Tokyo it absolutely horrible.

[RadioRaheem84]

You can't compare Boston or NYC to the rest of the U.S. and say it has good public transportation. Most of the U.S. has no real public transportation to speak of. NYC has the most extensive public transportation system in the country, and compared to places like Seoul or Tokyo it absolutely horrible.

San Fran has good public transportation, Seattle's is pretty good too,

DC is excellent, Miami so-so, Austin, TX in the center of the city it's pretty good. Denver's is OK. Portland, pretty good.

Chicago, good but needs a damn good touch up.

So not all American cities are without PT. There is no excuse for Houston, TX and LA.

And yes, Western Europe's PT is fantastic. Even in Santiago De Chile I thought the public transportation was excellent. Better than NYC's.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

New York

http://glennthursfundamentals.journalism.cuny.edu/files/2010/10/NYCsubwayrats.jpg

Seoul

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/1783598.jpg

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

San Fran has good public transportation, Seattle's is pretty good too,

DC is excellent, Miami so-so, Austin, TX in the center of the city it's pretty good. Denver's is OK. Portland, pretty good.

Chicago, good but needs a damn good touch up.

So not all American cities are without PT. There is no excuse for Houston, TX and LA.

I'm didn't say cities. I said most of the United States. Meaning the majority of the area of the country. Some (not all) cities have public transportation of some sort, but almost no where does the reach the levels seen in places in Europe and East Asia. The U.S. is organized around individual car ownership. Public transportation for the most part exists to supplement that (e.g. with light rail to bring commuters from the suburbs into urban job centers during business hours).

If you live in a small city in South Korea, you can take a bus from your house to any store in your city. You can take a large, nice, comfortable bus or train to any other city quickly and inexpensively.

If you live in a small city in the U.S., you'd better get a car.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Although they would, technically, there is an up-side to poor infrastructure and decreased spending thereupon (both for public transport and roadways; that is, up-side for the capitalists): privatisation. More specifically, toll-roads. There have been, at various times, suggestions to privatise public motorways and make them tolled (and the toll roads are often owned and financed by venture capitalists who benefit from having constant revenue in their little portfolios).

Wouldn't that increase the costs of every private company that wanted to use the motorways?


I don't know how many CEOs are driving themselves to work during rush hour every day. But anyway, that's the point here. It's not even necessarily about the personal needs of individual capitalists. It's about the ability of capitalism to reproduce itself (or not).

I mean NYC's mayor "King Mike" Bloomberg is one of the richest men in the world. And yet he rides the broken down, rat-infested subway regularly. That hasn't stopped the transit authority from closing booths, laying off workers, removing the number of operators on trains, etc. It hasn't stopped an increase in the rat infestation, it hasn't lead to any kind of air conditioning or ventilation system to prevent people from dying from the heat as happened in June (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-06-02/local/29627388_1_subway-train-manhattan-subway-platform-straphanger). (Of course this guy, who is labeled as NYC's first subway riding mayor, is actually chauffeured to a distant subway stop by his personal detail.. when he rides it. It turns out that he now rides it only a few days a month.)

I wasn't just referring to personal inconvenience on the part of the rulers - indeed, such things are easily allayed with a relatively small application of money. I was also thinking of industrial interests, whose operating costs would be increased by shoddily-maintained infrastructure.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I wasn't just referring to personal inconvenience on the part of the rulers - indeed, such things are easily allayed with a relatively small application of money. I was also thinking of industrial interests, whose operating costs would be increased by shoddily-maintained infrastructure.

The last time I checked, 28.5% of intercity freight was carried by truck (on roads). Around 51% goes by rail or water. - http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_46b.html

Still, the U.S. actually relies more on roads for commercial use than most (maybe all) of the "most developed" countries.

There has been some pressure to improve the infrastructure, with things like broken down bridges becoming a political issue. But I don't think capitalism can provide it on a general scale (with projects like the repair of the road I mentioned being localized, individual projects).

[bricolage]

so what are the reasons for such bad public transport in america?

[Die Neue Zeit]

But I don't think capitalism can provide it on a general scale (with projects like the repair of the road I mentioned being localized, individual projects).

Um, whatever happened to the legacy of Eisenhower's infrastructure plan?

[RadioRaheem84]

so what are the reasons for such bad public transport in america?

The suburbanization of America and the Federal Highway Act during the Eisenhower administration happened.

It was a huge subsidized giveaway to the automobile industry. It practically destroyed the public transit system in middle America.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I also want to disagree with DNZ's perspective on American cities. Boston, MA has to be one of the most pedestrian friendly cities I have ever been to. Their transportation is pretty damn good.

US cities do need work though. They're in bad shape.

Having lived in Boston for a time, I'd have to respectfully partially disagree.The city is pedestrian friendly. Perhaps that comes from the 18th century layout which other US cities either lost (New York) or in most cases never had. The subway, the "T", is atrocious. There are constant breakdowns and delays.Many are the times I've been stranded on the Red Line, badly having to take a pee. Its almost certain that if one is not late for an appointment, the Red Line will make sure that one will be. Most of the escalators don't work.

I am not up on the details but I do know that a subsidiary of Bechtel got the contract for upgrading, repairs and maintenance even though their work is very low quality. There seems to have been a lot of built in corruption involved but I'm am not up on the details.

In my experience for what its worth the DC subway is the best. Worldwide I think the Moscow subway is by far the best, very accessible, a wait no more than two minutes and in the central areas a pretty layout.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

so what are the reasons for such bad public transport in america?The primacy of the auto giants for one. Several decades ago, offers for free, modern trains were rejected in California due to the influence of General Motors and Firestone (who coincidentally then went on to supply buses and tires).

"...General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, and some other companies formed holding companies that purchased several dozen of the hundreds of transit systems across North America, their real goal was to sell their products — buses, tires, and fuel — to those transit systems as they converted from streetcars to buses."

and

"In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, General Motors and Mack Trucks were convicted of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by National City Lines and other companies; they were acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies. The verdicts were upheld on appeal in 1951. The corporations involved were fined only $5000. In addition, the jury convicted H.C. Grossman, who was then treasurer of General Motors. Grossman had played a key role in the motorization campaigns and had served as a director of PCL when that company undertook the dismantlement of the $100 million Pacific Electric system. The court fined Grossman the magnanimous sum of $1." (wiki)

There used to be streetcars (trams) all over the U.S. They ran into financial difficulties during the Great Depression. The government launched massive public works programs after, but they were geared toward the construction of highways.

Streetcars were done away with and the track was ripped up as personal automobiles went more mainstream (and the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 ushered in the end of whatever was left).

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There were decisions made after the Second World War which determined the development of US cities. As Radio Rahhema mentioned the Federal Highway Act increased suburbanization. Federal financial policies, by essentially creating a system of race based mortgages, and home finance encouraged middle class whites to leave the cities leading to vast sterile suburbs surrounding cities. Passenger rail was largely dismantled.

David Harvey discusses how the building of US highways and other infrastructure post-war served as an outlet for surplus capital, as did Huysman's rebuilding of Paris did at the time of Napoleon III.

[Die Neue Zeit]

David Harvey discusses how the building of US highways and other infrastructure post-war served as an outlet for surplus capital, as did Huysman's rebuilding of Paris did at the time of Napoleon III.

Links?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Links?

He talks about this in one of his videos, I'm not sure where, sorry.

He talks about Paris of that era here, although I haven't read this yet. Looks interesting.He riffs on Benjamins "Arcades Project".

http://www.amazon.com/Paris-Capital-Modernity-David-Harvey/dp/041594421X

Some of his writing on urban development is here.

http://www.amazon.com/Urban-Experience-David-Harvey/dp/0801838495

[Sendo]

To add to NHIA's photos. Seoul has just installed sliding doors on every single platform. Its impossible for garbage to accumulate or people to fall in. And it blocks out the hot tunnel air. In addition the average fare for most locales is $1.10 equivalent. The airport train connects directly to their equivalent of grand central station. There are far far more lines and far far more mileage. It connects 2 provinces and two major metropolitan city-states. I can go on and on, but what im getting at is that it is a testament to proper investment. You do a PROPER job and people actually use it in droves, pay less, and have less maintenance. Korean metro trains dont have puddles, shoddy wiring, or rats

Where pub transit in the us exists it is so inadequate as to be a piss take. Only in america would the capital district transit association for albany, ny have all of its suburban bus stops in areas accessible only by car

If i need a car to get to the bus stop why on earth would i not just drive all the way to work? And they wonder why no one wants to pay $6 a trip and transfer 4 times to get into albany

[mykittyhasaboner]

Miami so-so

It's actually quite bad, outside of the metrorail. Buses are always late, and they don't come often. So if you aren't going to downtown Miami your going to have to wait a lot longer. This applies WAY more to surrounding areas of Miami like Palm Beach or Ft. Lauderdale. The one good thing about SF public transport is the tri-rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_rail). Its not too expensive.


And yes, Western Europe's PT is fantastic.It really is. One can navigate a huge city like Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt or Paris within minutes by metro. Smaller cities like Basel have outstanding buses which can get you anywhere.

Even eastern Europe's public transportation (in most cases) is better than the majority of the US. Where they don't have a metro, they make up for it with more wheels or tracks. For example in Belgrade there are buses going, everywhere, and a nice tram system covering the center or the city.


If i need a car to get to the bus stop why on earth would i not just drive all the way to work?

The same problem exists in South Florida. Bus stops are only on main roads, and since SF is a subruban wasteland, it takes a little time to get to one if you have to trek from your apartment or house out to a main road (unless you live on one), most likely missing the bus. If you need to commute all the way down to Miami, then you need to take the tri-rail...but theres only one station per locale, so you need a bus (unreliable) or car to get there.



US cities need to pick up the pace, but whos going to make them?