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RedTrackWorker
12th August 2011, 05:00
http://www.lrp-cofi.org/statements/isl_israeliprotests_081111.html

Statement of the Internationalist Socialist League (Israel/Occupied Palestine)
[email protected]
August 9, 2011

Israelis Demand Social Justice –
But What of the Palestinians?

A tent city in Tel Aviv set up to draw attention to the high cost of housing in Israel has sparked a mass protest movement across the country. Last weekend over three hundred thousand Israelis marched in protest. “The people,” they chanted, “want social justice!”

Stagnant wages, rising prices and cutbacks in social welfare have indeed been making life unbearable for a growing number of Israelis. A struggle against this is long overdue. However, the current protest movement has limited itself to demanding “social justice” only for Israelis. Meanwhile, right under the protesters’ noses in Israel, not to mention in Gaza, the West Bank and beyond, Palestinians suffer the most terrible deprivation and oppression.

Revolutionary socialists join with today’s protesters in condemning the policies of Netanyahu’s Likud government (as well as those of Labor and Kadima before it), which have ensured that a growing number of Israelis have fallen deeper into poverty while Israel’s capitalist profiteers have laughed all the way to the bank. But we challenge the protesters: if the cost of living is becoming unbearable for Israelis, consider what life is like for Palestinians.

In Jerusalem, for example, the city’s most recent municipal plan, “Jerusalem 2000,” is openly racist, asserting as its goal the maintenance of a Jewish super-majority in the city. Accordingly, in recent years, thousands of Palestinians have had their residency permits revoked and been deported on the basis of technicalities no Jew ever faces. Kilometer after kilometer of land in the city continue to be stolen from Palestinians to make way for new Jewish settlements or private capitalist enterprises. Palestinians’ applications for permits to build or improve their housing are systematically denied, forcing them into poorly constructed buildings whose illegality is then used by the government as an excuse to demolish them, seize the land and expel the residents. Palestinians face similar efforts at ethnic cleansing, both overt and covert, from places like Jaffa and Al-Ludd to the villages of the Negev.

If the more than one and a half million Palestinians living inside Israel endure such conditions of cruel apartheid oppression, what of the stateless millions beyond the Green Line? In Gaza, their access to even the most elementary necessities of life – food and medicine –is subject to an Israeli blockade which can be accurately compared to the Nazis’ genocidal siege of Warsaw’s Jewish ghetto. In the West Bank, the Israeli state is not satisfied with the Palestinian Authority’s work in brutally oppressing the masses on its behalf and promotes the theft of more land and more murderous violence by settlers and the Israeli army. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands more Palestinians still languish in refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. Showing that their desire to return to their homeland remains unbroken, this year on Nakba Day, Palestinian refugees marched peacefully toward its borders, only to be slaughtered by Israeli soldiers.

Despite being appalled, to say the least, by the Israeli protest movement’s chauvinist indifference to the Palestinians’ plight, we revolutionary socialists support the current struggle to defend the living standards of Israeli working-class, poor and young people against capitalism’s attacks. By exposing the Israeli rulers’ lack of loyalty to the poor, the struggle can begin to break down support for the Zionist state and thus also weaken its ability to oppress the Palestinians. Further, the more that Israelis mobilize against their government and capitalist class in order to defend their living standards, the more likely the more class-conscious and democratically inclined will be to begin to surrender their identification with the Zionist state and begin to identify with the Palestinians’ struggle for liberation.

With this perspective, we participate in the struggle first and foremost from the perspective of the most deprived and oppressed victims of this state – the Palestinians. Inside the movement, in addition to fighting for its demands for price controls on housing and other essentials of life, we raise the call for the defense of Palestinians’ lives and livelihoods, starting with the most basic demands:

Stop the Theft and Destruction of Palestinian Homes!
Stop the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, Jaffa, Al-Ludd and the Negev!
Stop the Settlements! Down with the Wall!
Down with Discrimination Against Palestinians in Housing, Employment and Social Services!
Down with the Blockade of Gaza!


Contradiction of the Two-State Left

After weeks of refusing to say anything about Palestinians, the Tent City leadership started to become embarrassed by the movement’s obvious racism. So at their August 6 rally the organizers allowed Uda Basharat of the Communist Party’s electoral front Hadash (the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality) to speak from its platform.

Basharat surprised many by daring to refer to the injustice of housing shortages and demolitions experienced by “Arabs.” At the same time, however, Basharat’s speech made a number of enormous concessions to the chauvinism of the crowd and of wider Israeli society. Perhaps most shocking was the fact that while Zionism has done its best to wipe Palestine off the map, Basharat never once said anything to correct that. Thus he studiously avoided ever referring to the territory of Palestine or its Palestinian people. His repeated reference to “Arabs,” and his failure to mention any place outside the Green Line surely gave many people the impression that he was only concerned with Palestinians inside Israel. Many Palestinians would not have been impressed by Basharat’s refusal to refer to the ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing against Palestinians in East Jerusalem, let alone to the plight of Palestinians in the broader Occupied Territories. Indeed Basharat made no mention of the settlements on the West Bank or the starvation blockade of Gaza or of the Wall that is dividing and trapping Palestinians.[1]

By not challenging the broader Zionist oppression of Palestinians, Hadash has actually helped the Zionist leaders of the protest movement cover up their chauvinism, allowing them to better resist calls by the most left-wing Israeli protesters for stronger demands in defense of the Palestinians.

We have no illusion that any more than a small minority of today’s protest movement will support our demands in defense of the Palestinians. Indeed, it says a lot about the extent to which Zionist chauvinism and racism have saturated the consciousness of Israelis that even today’s protest movement, which is based on the minority of Israeli society that is already more secular, liberal and left-wing, cannot be expected to support such basic demands.

Certainly some of the Israeli activists who have been the movement’s driving force have some concern for the Palestinians. But their privileged position as Israeli citizens, receiving access to land and resources denied to Palestinians, has allowed them the luxury of putting off raising demands on the Palestinians’ behalf. Raising such demands, these activists have reasoned, would provoke a split from the existing movement by its large numbers of mainstream and right-wing Zionists, as well as a backlash from the rest of Israeli society. But if the protest movement against the capitalist attacks inside Israel is to move forward, a split of the pro-Palestinian minority from the pro-Zionist majority is exactly what is needed. The lesson of every working-class struggle and left-wing movement in Israeli history, from the seamen’s strikes of the 1950s and ’60s, through the Black Panther movement of the 1970s, to Peace Now’s rise in the 1980s, is that unless these movements break through the limits of Zionist chauvinism and turn to the Palestinian masses as allies, they will be swept aside as soon as Israel launches a new war or anti-Palestinian atrocity.

If this happens again with the current movement, much responsibility will lie with those organizations which appealed to the most radical protesters with socialist and even revolutionary rhetoric only to make their peace with Zionism. Perhaps the most appalling role has been played by Maavak Sozialisti, the Israeli section of the Committee for a Workers International (CWI).

Maavak has capitulated to the movement’s dominant “social justice for Israelis” chauvinism, never once criticizing the movement’s failure to defend the Palestinians. Its statements on the struggle use vague calls for opposition to racist legislation to avoid taking a specific stand against any particular attack on Palestinians and their rights. Insultingly to Palestinians, whose expropriation is the foundation of the Israeli state, their paper buries opposition to racism amidst a list of other injustices it opposes, like discrimination against people with mental disabilities.

Indeed, while finding space in the special edition of its newspaper for a whole page of discussion about the protests concerning the high price Israelis must pay for cottage cheese, it found no room for a single article devoted to the concerns of Palestinians. Even worse, in their cottage protest articles, Maavak actually calls for protectionism of the Israeli dairy industry against Nethanyahu’s proposal to open the market to imports – showing that Maavak can muster up a defense of specific Israeli capitalists much more easily than it can make such an effort on the part of the Palestinians![2]

We are reminded of a bus ride back from a Nakba Day demonstration at which Maavak members had advocated their “socialist” two-state solution. On the way home, we almost felt sorry for the Maavak members as Palestinians took the opportunity to quite correctly condemn them as “apartheid socialists.” While we are certain that the Maavak members subjectively abhor apartheid and racism, their capitulation to Zionism, instead of helping them build a “united anti-racist struggle,” only isolates them from the Palestinian masses – the vanguard of any socialist revolution that could ever take place in this land.

A Warning

The clearest confirmation of the fact that the current protest movement has failed to break with Zionist chauvinism, and a warning of how the movement could actually embolden Israel’s far-right, came when the notorious follower of the late Meir Kahane, fascist settler Baruch Marzel, brought a group of his supporters to join the tent city in Tel Aviv. “When it comes to social issues [for Jews],” Marzel declared, “I’m more Left than Left.” Such rhetoric should not be surprising. The promise of socialism to the members of a privileged oppressor people – “national socialism” – is a defining feature of fascism. The protest movement’s refusal to raise demands in defense of Palestinian interests while calling for justice for Israelis practically invited fascists like Marzel to participate. Some protest organizers actually welcomed the Kahanists’ and settlers’ participation. Many more protesters, however, have opposed their presence, though they cannot point to a single demand of the movement that has taken the side of the Palestinians against Zionist attack and thus precluded the right-wing Zionists’ participation.

If the struggles of workers and poor people in Israel are to grow to challenge the capitalists and their state, they must break with Zionism and side with the Palestinians’ struggle for liberation. The fact that some young Israelis have been positively influenced by the example of the Egyptian revolution and the broader uprising in the Arab world shows that there is reason to expect that growing numbers of Israelis will learn to reject Zionism completely.

Those among today’s protesters truly committed to a struggle against both capitalism’s worsening poverty and Zionism’s racist atrocities will have to come to recognize that the Israeli state in which today’s protesters hope to live with “social justice” is itself, by its very nature, an injustice to the Palestinians. The state of Israel was founded on the ethnic cleansing of 700-900,000 Palestinians from their homeland, and the denial of the rights of those who remained. It can only survive by means of continued apartheid, land theft and war. All Israel is Occupied Territory!

Mubarak, Assad, the Israeli State!

Karl Marx famously declared that the working class has nothing to lose but its chains. Because the working class has no fundamental interest in capitalist society, he expected that the workers would rise up against the states that keep them down. While this is true in general, it is not true in the case of Israeli workers who, by virtue of their citizenship, benefit every day from access to land and resources as a result of the Israeli state’s expropriation and oppression of Palestinians. Very many Israeli workers participate directly in this colonialism through regular military service. These experiences fuel Zionist chauvinism and underpin the Israeli working class’s deep sense of loyalty to the state.

At the same time, Israeli workers and poor people do have an interest in taking up the cause of Palestinians: of the powerful imperialist countries of the world, Israel has the greatest gap between rich and poor, with 20% of Israelis living below the official “poverty line.” The numbers of Israelis living in poverty has been allowed to rise to the extent that it has because the masses’ nationalist loyalty to the state has encouraged them to tolerate their ruling class’s profiteering and discouraged them from fighting back.

In the long run, Israel will become a death trap for its Jewish citizens as well. Imperialism’s support for Israel stems from the fact that its wars and oppression have served the imperialists’ need to keep the Arab masses down and its oil wealth safe for exploitation. For Israel to fulfill its role as the region’s imperialist policeman, its ruling class has turned the Israelis into oppressors on the one hand and cannon fodder on the other. They demand that Jews kill and be killed serving the interests of the big capitalists and the government. Any struggle against the Israeli capitalists can only be successful if it challenges capitalism and imperialist oppression in the region.

The only way for at least a class-conscious, internationalist minority of the Israeli working class to join the Arab revolution is by joining the Palestinian masses in their struggle to overthrow the Zionist state so that they may enjoy their right to return to their homeland and enjoy equal rights in it. Because that aim is inconceivable without the overthrow of imperialism throughout the region, that means fighting for a Palestinian workers’ state from the river to the sea, as part of a federation of workers’ states in the entire region. Israeli Jews, having surrendered any rights to property seized from Palestinians, will have the right to live in Palestine, without any racial privileges, but free of any form of ethnic or religious discrimination.

It is the duty of revolutionaries to work their hardest to make this perspective a reality. However, despite the fact that we would want to win both Jewish and Palestinian workers and poor people, we must realize that in all likelihood we will not be able to recruit the majority of Israeli Jews to actively support the revolution. Thus our perspective focuses on winning the Palestinian working class and poor, as well as those Jews willing to join with them, to the aim of making the socialist revolution, while at least securing the peaceful acceptance of the revolution from the largest possible number of the rest of the Jewish masses.

Fighting for the Palestinians’ basic rights means fighting for the right of all Palestinians who were expelled from their homeland, and the right of all their descendants as well, to return to it. If the Palestinians’ right of return is realized, they will be the overwhelming majority throughout the land. For this reason, there is no way to consistently advocate the rights of the Palestinians while defending the right of Israeli Jews to maintain a state of their own. Such a state could only survive by means of apartheid rule over the Palestinian population, or by another wave of brutal ethnic cleansing. The perspective of the regional socialist revolution offers a way out of this nightmarish alternative.

Recognizing that the Palestinian masses are not strong enough on their own to overthrow the imperialist-backed Zionist state, we have all along said that the revolutions by the Arab workers of the region would come to the support of the Palestinians and aid their coming to power. The revolutionary uprisings that toppled the dictators of Tunisia and Egypt, and continue to challenge the region’s other strongmen, are just the beginning. Imperialist capitalism cannot support democracy in these countries. To secure the democratic freedoms the masses demand, the working class will have to lead the urban poor and peasants in overthrowing capitalism and building workers’ states on the road to socialism. This is the strategy of permanent revolution.

The workers’ state that would be formed out of the regional revolution would allow the return of the refugees, who also suffer from harsh problems in the field of housing, as they were driven off their lands by Israel. With the return of the refugees, the workers’ state would become Palestinian in its national character. However, Jews who join with the Palestinians in a revolutionary struggle, will also become a part of the ruling class – the workers and the poor, Palestinians and Jews alike.

But for all this to become a reality, the exploited and oppressed masses must find an international revolutionary working-class political party capable of leading the struggle to victory. The internationalist strategy outlined in this statement aims to unite the working class based on an uncompromising struggle for the interests of capitalism’s most exploited and oppressed people. It expresses the perspective of authentic working-class Trotskyism, the anti-Stalinist Marxism of our times. We believe the vanguard revolutionary party that workers need must aim to re-create the Fourth International, the Trotskyist World Party of Socialist Revolution.

We invite all those interested to contact us and join in the discussion of how to take the struggle forward.

For Quality and Cheap Government Housing for All, Palestinians and Jews!

Stop the Theft and Destruction of Palestinian Homes!

Stop the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, Jaffa, Al-Ludd and the Negev!

Stop the Settlements! Down with the Wall!

Down with Discrimination Against Palestinians in Housing, Employment and Social Services!

Down with the Blockade of Gaza!

For Jewish Solidarity with the Arab Masses!

For a Socialist Revolution in the Middle East!

For a Palestinian Workers’ State From the River to the Sea!


The Histadrut Must Call a General Strike!

Revolutionary socialists don’t wait for the ideal conditions before advocating a way forward for working-class struggle. Instead take as our starting point the current situation and support working-class and poor people defending themselves against the capitalists and state with whatever means are immediately available. Therefore, we advocate a struggle by members of the Histadrut to force the union federation to really mobilize its members for future protests and to call a general strike to win the protest movement’s demands for affordable housing and lower prices for other basic necessities like food and medicine, including an end to the Valued Added Tax.

At the same time, we maintain that the Histadrut is a racist organization that consistently refused to defend Palestinians from layoffs and racist attacks, as well as refusing to organize Palestinian workers both inside and outside of the Green Line. We support raising demands in defense of the Palestinians inside individual unions as part of a struggle to break them, in whole or in part, from the Histadrut so that they may join a movement of genuine unions, independent of the state, in which Palestinian and Jewish workers can fight side by side.

Notes
1. The transcript of the speech, “July’s Miracle”, can be found at adoomim.wordpress.com.
2. See the special edition in maavak.org.il/maavak/pdf/201107.SSM.Tents.pdf, especially the articles "היום שאחרי מחאת הקוטג': מעלים הילוך!" and "הסערה החברתית מציעה סדר-יום חדש לישראל".
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RadioRaheem84
12th August 2011, 05:21
What is with the Israelis? Why aren't they using this as a platform to also chime in about Palestinian rights?

My guess is that it's as unusual for them as it is for Americans to acknowledge the treatment of immigrant laborers.

freepalestine
12th August 2011, 05:27
http://www.revleft.com/vb/israel-mass-movement-t159377/index.html?t=159377
unlike this cwi article (in the link)
the isl article gets to the point and the problem in the isreal state - zionism and the occupation etc etc

Cynic
12th August 2011, 06:36
I do not think any real change can come to the region until the inhabitants can get over their silly religious superiority complex. Religion absolutely disgusts me at times.

RedTrackWorker
12th August 2011, 08:28
I do not think any real change can come to the region until the inhabitants can get over their silly religious superiority complex. Religion absolutely disgusts me at times.

I think you should look more into the conflict before making such a claim. An introductory book like Image and reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict by Norman G. Finkelstein might be useful, as I don't think anyone can make a case that the conflict is about religion. And further, I would not equate both sides, which your statement seems to. I think it is a question of settler-colonialism and imperialism--not religion.

Cynic
12th August 2011, 15:15
I think you should look more into the conflict before making such a claim. An introductory book like Image and reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict by Norman G. Finkelstein might be useful, as I don't think anyone can make a case that the conflict is about religion. And further, I would not equate both sides, which your statement seems to. I think it is a question of settler-colonialism and imperialism--not religion.

Fair enough I was being a bit ones sided in my statement. But religion does play a role in the fighting.

RadioRaheem84
12th August 2011, 17:41
But do Israelis share an exceptionalist mentality like Americans do when it comes to politics?

RedTrackWorker
13th August 2011, 04:06
But do Israelis share an exceptionalist mentality like Americans do when it comes to politics?

What do you mean by an exceptionalist mentality with politics?

MarxSchmarx
13th August 2011, 04:14
This was a deliberate choice by many of the lead organizers of these protests to ignore, or at least not directly address, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as they felt it would create divisions and render the protests irrelevant.

And the results are predictable - Arab Israelis, for example, are by and large not impressed -
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMzNB0XP7PkHPzg_1DLuZI38CFzg?docId=993195559 03a4b0eb3ab7ae566f7846d

The leftists who were part of these protests had a choice - either they march with the most marginalized members of Israeli society, or they contribute to that marginalization by deliberately ignoring their concerns in the hopes of appealing to what they see as the "mainstream". They chose the latter.

The irony is that in hoping to avoid divisions they exacerbated a key division.

Crux
13th August 2011, 04:25
Maavak has capitulated to the movement’s dominant “social justice for Israelis” chauvinism, never once criticizing the movement’s failure to defend the Palestinians.
Allow me to quote the article freepalestine linked:
Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Significantly, a few Arab-Palestinian tents were set up in Israel, using the momentum to raise demands for decent housing and against the nationalist-racist discrimination which inflicts the worst housing problems upon the Palestinian and Arab population of Israel. This happens despite the fact that many of the Palestinian residents of Israel feel that it is not ‘their’ protest – partially a reflection of the strongly-supported idea of ‘unity between right and left’, which in reality on the ground means no mention of resistance to the occupation, and so the hidden yearning for peace is not surfacing at the moment alongside the shouts for "social justice". It stems on one hand from an understanding that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has served the ruling class by weakening all previous social protests. However, an approach which ignores the national conflict is a dangerous trap, precisely because it plays into the hands of the Israeli ruling class, and works to isolate this upheaval on living conditions from all the rest of the struggles in the region, particularly the Palestinian struggle for rights and independence.



So far, no attempt by the ruling establishment to de-legitimize the movement itself has succeeded (one of the organizers in central Tel-Aviv was even accused by an anonymous far-right video of being a member of the Socialist Struggle Movement, which allegedly is controlled by a leftist Non-Governmental Organization fund). But as long as this movement and the ones that will definitely follow do not embrace a solidarity approach with the Palestinian masses and against the occupation and settlements, they will tend eventually to sharply spilt when facing escalation of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians or Israel and the countries in the region. The deceptive security alerts by the Israeli ruling class to the Jewish population will serve to fracture the movement, and to use parts of it to oppress the Palestinian struggle, which is on the road of heroic escalation as well.



A warning sign has been given with the infiltration of far-right elements that disguise and leech upon the movement, whip up nationalism, promote the settlements enterprise, and viciously incite against Arab-Palestinians, African refugees and immigrant workers. A joint Jewish-Arab protest march by impoverished neighbourhoods from Southern Tel-Aviv, Jaffa and other locations was cancelled following threats by the far-right Kahanists. Joint Jewish-Arab tents in Tel-Aviv were subjected to physical attacks. These far-right elements are recognized as a danger by a minority of the most radical layers of the movement, who are looking for a way to kick them out. For example, some militants have burnt tents of the far-right. But effective cleansing of such elements could be successful only through the open adoption of the ideas of a united solidarity struggle between all the exploited and oppressed, Jews and Palestinians, and of opposition to racism and the occupation. For the meantime, the head of the Students Association has felt confident enough to warmly welcome the main Settlers’ organization for "joining the protest", even though it is another chief servant of reaction.

Crux
13th August 2011, 04:39
Freepalestine: I am still waiting for you to respond to the actual article in that thread. If you'd rather respond here, do so, respond to the part I've quoted and explain how that is "left-zionism", as you claimed it was. And as for ISL's claim that quote in itself disproves it.

RedTrackWorker
13th August 2011, 04:52
It doesn't disprove the ISL's claim as they article you quote from is from the day they published their statement and the ISL statement links to the newspaper pdf the CWI were handing out up to the point of new statement. The ISL's claim on that issue is now old. Now that the CWI has started to address the issue--the point to make now then is how has it addressed it?

And so the point remains that if you're not for a Palestinian state from the Jordan river to the Meditarrian Sea, you're an "apartheid socialist" as an Israeli state can only mean a combination of ethnic cleansing or apartheid rule in a land in which if the Palestinians won their basic democratic rights (to return and to participate equally in society) they would be the clear majority. You can claim otherwise in theory but you cannot explain how that would be otherwise in fact.

freepalestine
13th August 2011, 05:14
"The attempt to accelerate the privatization of land (held in majority by the state) and to hand it out almost for free to the real-estate sharks, stirred up an outcry across the movement and it only grew stronger.From around 30,000 at the central demo after the first week, it grew within a week to five times bigger when parallel protests where held across the country. Another week and 300,000 were mobilized! "


this was from the article maj.....
to me that says everything one needs know about the protests....
what are they protesting against?? zionist policys..?

n.b. i presume you know what zionist 'state land' is..

Crux
13th August 2011, 14:16
"The attempt to accelerate the privatization of land (held in majority by the state) and to hand it out almost for free to the real-estate sharks, stirred up an outcry across the movement and it only grew stronger.From around 30,000 at the central demo after the first week, it grew within a week to five times bigger when parallel protests where held across the country. Another week and 300,000 were mobilized! "


this was from the article maj.....
to me that says everything one needs know about the protests....
what are they protesting against?? zionist policys..?

n.b. i presume you know what zionist 'state land' is..
So privatizations is your way forward? Nice. Now how about you respond to the part I quoted.

Crux
13th August 2011, 14:23
It doesn't disprove the ISL's claim as they article you quote from is from the day they published their statement and the ISL statement links to the newspaper pdf the CWI were handing out up to the point of new statement. The ISL's claim on that issue is now old. Now that the CWI has started to address the issue--the point to make now then is how has it addressed it?

And so the point remains that if you're not for a Palestinian state from the Jordan river to the Meditarrian Sea, you're an "apartheid socialist" as an Israeli state can only mean a combination of ethnic cleansing or apartheid rule in a land in which if the Palestinians won their basic democratic rights (to return and to participate equally in society) they would be the clear majority. You can claim otherwise in theory but you cannot explain how that would be otherwise in fact.
Which incidentally was the only point the ISL could muster up. So why make thing's up and not just leave it at that? Our position is clear, we are not "apartheid socialists" that is just a cheap attempt at point-scoring from the ISL, and just as you they are both unwilling and unable to discuss or understand the CWI's position.
Here is the Mavaak statement on this years Al Nakba. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5074) Instead of desperate slander from the ISL, please do explain how this is an "apartheid socialism" position.

freepalestine
13th August 2011, 15:15
"The attempt to accelerate the privatization of land (held in majority by the state) and to hand it out almost for free to the real-estate sharks, stirred up an outcry across the movement and it only grew stronger.From around 30,000 at the central demo after the first week, it grew within a week to five times bigger when parallel protests where held across the country. Another week and 300,000 were mobilized! "


this was from the article maj.....
to me that says everything one needs know about the protests....
what are they protesting against?? zionist policys..?

n.b. i presume you know what zionist 'state land' is..


So privatizations is your way forward? Nice. Now how about you respond to the part I quoted.no.the state owned lands are all stolen land.. this a key issue in Palestine.
this to me shows that the protests are within zionist context.
these protests within an already racist,indoctrinated and rightwing society seem to be a pointless,when considering the real issues.



another link to read of middle class protest:
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=412843






http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=412313
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...salem-1.378218
Tourists impressed by tent city in Tel Aviv
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...107623,00.html
New housing projects planned for east Jerusalem
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...107487,00.html

Crux
13th August 2011, 18:41
And yet you still do not respond to the article. The ISL response is that it "was not avaialble at the time", well then issue a retraction or else it's plain to see it was just a dishonest attack.

Allow me to refresh your memory once more:

Significantly, a few Arab-Palestinian tents were set up in Israel, using the momentum to raise demands for decent housing and against the nationalist-racist discrimination which inflicts the worst housing problems upon the Palestinian and Arab population of Israel. This happens despite the fact that many of the Palestinian residents of Israel feel that it is not ‘their’ protest – partially a reflection of the strongly-supported idea of ‘unity between right and left’, which in reality on the ground means no mention of resistance to the occupation, and so the hidden yearning for peace is not surfacing at the moment alongside the shouts for "social justice".

It stems on one hand from an understanding that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has served the ruling class by weakening all previous social protests. However, an approach which ignores the national conflict is a dangerous trap, precisely because it plays into the hands of the Israeli ruling class, and works to isolate this upheaval on living conditions from all the rest of the struggles in the region, particularly the Palestinian struggle for rights and independence.

freepalestine
13th August 2011, 20:11
i dont think you get it... if you think socialism is all about defending [and propagating]your organisation then i'm not debating that.i'm not getting into an argument over the article,from another thread.
it seems you just want to argue with anyone who says anything detrimental about the cwi.i meant what ive said previously.


the main point is that you havent commented on the reality of the situation and the topic-ie.zionism,the occupation ,apartheid,ethnic cleansing,and racism.
all issues these protests [on the whole] seem to have ignored.why is that?
why have 25% of the isreali states population [the 48arabs] not taken part in those events??

Crux
13th August 2011, 22:51
You claimed the article was a "joke" and that my comrades are "left-zionists" but when asked to back it up you've been completetly unable to do so. In this thread you, not I, linked the article first. Now you are unable to respond to it.
If you could read you would see that the part I have quoted from the article, in fact quoted twice, adresses this. RedTrackWorker at least admitted this.

RedTrackWorker
14th August 2011, 02:29
Which incidentally was the only point the ISL could muster up. So why make thing's up and not just leave it at that? Our position is clear, we are not "apartheid socialists" that is just a cheap attempt at point-scoring from the ISL, and just as you they are both unwilling and unable to discuss or understand the CWI's position.
Here is the Mavaak statement on this years Al Nakba. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5074) Instead of desperate slander from the ISL, please do explain how this is an "apartheid socialism" position.

How did the statement make things up? They linked to the CWI statement that was out when they wrote their article.

On apartheid socialism, how am I unwilling or unable to discuss or understand your position? The ISL leaflet that is the first post on this thread addresses the issue and you are the one that has not responded to it:

Fighting for the Palestinians’ basic rights means fighting for the right of all Palestinians who were expelled from their homeland, and the right of all their descendants as well, to return to it. If the Palestinians’ right of return is realized, they will be the overwhelming majority throughout the land. For this reason, there is no way to consistently advocate the rights of the Palestinians while defending the right of Israeli Jews to maintain a state of their own. Such a state could only survive by means of apartheid rule over the Palestinian population, or by another wave of brutal ethnic cleansing. The perspective of the regional socialist revolution offers a way out of this nightmarish alternative.

Crux
15th August 2011, 06:00
Simple. We support The Right of Return, we want to end the occupation and we do not support a Zionist Israel. How is that "Apartheid socialism"?

RedTrackWorker
15th August 2011, 13:15
Simple. We support The Right of Return, we want to end the occupation and we do not support a Zionist Israel. How is that "Apartheid socialism"?

You're avoiding the question in bold. One can say "red is green" and one can say "we're against apartheid, ethnic cleansing, etc. and we're for an Israeli state" but the claim the ISL and LRP make is that in fact (not in words or in theory) you cannot have an Israeli state without apartheid or ethnic cleansing. If the right of return and end of occupation is granted in fact, what would be the legitimate basis for an Israeli state as the Palestinians would be the clear majority from the river to the sea?

agnixie
19th August 2011, 17:23
So you guys are point scoring because of a country name?

Seriously this is full of shit. As usual in these cases, I'll go with a pox on both houses. Nationalism is a disease, and it seems that right now the only one getting it is Maiakovskij. The anarchist solution is more elegant, but I guess it won't work with a bunch of left nationalists.

freepalestine
19th August 2011, 17:32
So you guys are point scoring because of a country name?

Seriously this is full of shit. As usual in these cases, I'll go with a pox on both houses. Nationalism is a disease, and it seems that right now the only one getting it is Maiakovskij. The anarchist solution is more elegant, but I guess it won't work with a bunch of left nationalists.i dont know what your point is...
please dont give the "anarchism is for no states answer."

although as you know the problem is zionism,racism,occupation,ethnic cleansing and apartheid..
if youre for anarchism you should be against zionism,no?

A Marxist Historian
19th August 2011, 17:39
How did the statement make things up? They linked to the CWI statement that was out when they wrote their article.

On apartheid socialism, how am I unwilling or unable to discuss or understand your position? The ISL leaflet that is the first post on this thread addresses the issue and you are the one that has not responded to it:

This debate is a weird dialogue of the deaf.

On the one side, we have defenders of the CWI group in Israel, which apparently has played a role(?) in organizing these protests, defending themselves from criticism of the protests for their left-Zionist tone and total ignoring of the rights of the Palestinians.

On the other side we get the New Left liberal moralists of the LRP, who want to somehow get Israeli workers to reject their Zionist "white skin privilege" and stand up for replacing Israel with a Palestinian state. As if that was even conceivable to anybody except a leftover New Left moralist. Vicarious Palestinian bourgeois nationalism basically.

No, the only possible solution is transcending the boundaries of nationalism, with a joint struggle of Palestinian and Israeli workers for socialism, against *all* forms of nationalism and bourgeois rule.

With two different nations with claims on one small quite patch of land, and interspersed populations with no practical way to fairly divide it, any other solution just means ethnic cleansing. Much more likely by the Zionists as they have the vastly upper hand, but if the LRP's Palestinian state were established somehow, that would just mean reversing the terms of oppression.

Clearly against the material interests of the Israeli working class, currently in the streets against their government. So it would have to be shoved down their throats by armed force, i.e. the same thing in a "socialist" disguise, compelling them to reunite with their Zionist misleaders and oppressors. And not too doable, as the Israeli state has nukes and is certainly willing to use them if a serious attempt is made to drive all Israelis into the sea.

Masada is the central Zionist myth. By now Israel has enough nukes to render a sizeable portion of the planet uninhabitable. Something to be avoided.

-M.H.-

freepalestine
19th August 2011, 17:45
Barghouti: The tent protests ‘[are] the epitome of hysterical denial of the colonial reality’
by KIERA FELDMAN on AUGUST 19, 2011



Kiera Feldman conducted the following interview with Omar Barghouti over email in early August:

Kiera Feldman: How will the boycott law affect you personally? Are you changing your actions or speech in any way?


Omar Barghouti: We are all determined to carry on what we have been doing for years now: BDS. Far from deterring us, this law will only strengthen our resolve to continue to expose Israel's occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid and to demand accountability for them in accordance with international law.

The Israeli establishment is increasingly, though unwittingly, helping our campaign to spread by revealing Israel's true face as a rogue state that denies Palestinians their basic rights and freedoms with complicity from Western governments and international corporations. This law is among the very last veneers of democracy that Israel is now dropping, thus risking full exposure to, and dire consequences from international public opinion.



KF: As a prominent leader in the BDS movement, do you worry that you’ll be targeted?


OB: This is not about any individual activist; it is targeting the whole BDS movement as a global, Palestinian led campaign that raises the compelling slogan of freedom, justice and equality and that has broken through the barriers of the western mainstream, winning allies in trade unions, academia, cultural circles, faith groups, and, crucially, liberal Jewish groups. Israel's nuclear weapons and massive military might are deemed largely ineffective in countering this morally-consistent, nonviolent movement that is anchored in international law and universal human rights.

We are all concerned about Israel's intensifying repression, but we are determined to counter it with our own intensification of BDS, with the wonderful support of our principled, anti-colonial Israeli partners and our allies worldwide.



KF: What impact do you think the boycott law will have on BDS organizing within Israel? And outside of Israel?

OB: At first, BDS, like any Palestinian led resistance and international solidarity with it, is bound to enhance Israel's already tribal, paranoid consensus in support of apartheid and settler colonialism. But Israel is not unique in this; all colonial regimes, from South African apartheid to the French colonial rule in Algeria, go through this initial phase of "circling the wagons" when faced with resilient, rights-based and effective resistance. But as soon as this resistance starts exacting a heavy price from the colonial community, cracks start appearing in the wall of complicity and dissent takes off. We are not there yet, but we are headed without doubt in that direction.

BDS is clearly growing at an impressive rate, raising the cost of Israel's occupation and apartheid. The cultural boycott, in particular, has started biting in a very significant way, making more and more Israelis see their state's naked image in the mirror, and it is an ugly scene of war crimes, siege, militarism, vile colonial hubris, and power drunkenness that many cannot bear. Many do not like it and are already questioning whether this is the future they would want for their children.

These tendencies have not yet translated into a flood of support for BDS in Israel, but they have been reflected in the encroaching process of mainstreaming the idea of boycott in Israeli society. Hundreds of leading cultural figures, academics, so-called "peace" groups, among others, have already adopted partial boycotts against colonies, for the first time ever. This is a slippery slope, though. They start with a selective boycott first, largely to "save Israel," essentially as an apartheid state, but by doing so they inadvertently legitimate the tactic of boycott, thus opening the door for BDS to grow.

As the BDS campaign spreads steadily from Europe to Canada to the US to Asia, Latin America, Australia and Africa, we are witnessing a corresponding, gradual but steady erosion of Israel's standing in world public opinion and in its impunity as a state above the law. It will increasingly be seen as a world pariah, and that will eventually repel investments, joint projects and visits. A South Africa moment is reaching Israel, gradually but surely. The establishment establishment is keenly aware of this and is panicking, as a result, as its weapons of choice -- intimidation, vilification, racist incitement and blunt repression -- prove pathetically inadequate in its fight against BDS.

Two main corporate targets of the global BDS campaign, Agrexco and Veolia, just to give a concrete example, have suffered massive losses lately. While both corporations are desperately trying to hide or dismiss the impact of BDS on their bottom line, there is absolutely no doubt that the billions of dollars wroth of contracts that Veolia has lost in the last couple of years and the closing of markets in Europe and elsewhere in the face of Agrexco were to a large extent, but not exclusively, a result of BDS campaigns. Other management and financial factors have played a role as well, clearly. This will be a lesson to many corporations that are still profiting from Israel's occupation and apartheid. As in South Africa, when their profits start dwindling and their brands are sullied as partners in Israeli apartheid, these international profit-maximizing corporations will start abandoning ship much more rapidly.



KF: Within Israel, the boycott law has stirred up support for settlement boycotts among liberals. I wonder if it’s maybe less-than-helpful to have a renewed drive among liberal Zionists to keep fantasizing, “If only the Occupation were over, then everything would be better.” What do you make of this focus on settlement boycotts over the full call?


OB: This was mostly answered above but I'll add we welcome every partial boycott of Israel and its complicit institutions, despite the intentions of some of its initiators. Those calling now for a boycott of colonial settlements, after decades of silence in the face of a brutal system of occupation and apartheid, are obviously doing so to undermine or circumvent the wider, more principled, and by far more morally consistent BDS campaign. Rather than weakening BDS, though, they are really contributing to making the ground more fertile for its future growth.

Soft Zionists have always tried to maintain a gate-keeping role in channeling solidarity with Palestinians, specifically with a small subset of Palestinian rights, while suppressing any attempt to develop an independent Palestinian resistance strategy based on self determination and justice.

With BDS, this Zionist gate-keeper hegemony is largely in tatters, and soft Zionists are taking it quite harshly, acting out and throwing media tantrums here and there, accusing Palestinian civil society of "betraying" them and hurting in the process its own interests. In their twisted, self-centered world view, typical of apologists for colonialism anywhere, they think that if they withdraw their support, Palestinians would lose their only hope for emancipation. This racist colonial discourse, though, has been largely discredited and soft Zionists have increasingly been revealed to many as a fraud, purely interested in egotistic self preservation and in safeguarding Israeli apartheid.

The litmus test for any Israeli group claiming to support human rights and a sustainable peace based on justice and international law is whether it is ready to support the most basic right to full equality for the indigenous Palestinians. If they do, this which would automatically translate to embracing the right of return for Palestinian refugees systematically and brutally ethnically cleansed during the Nakba and ever since. Calling for an end to the occupation alone, as if that would end Israel's multi-tiered system of colonial oppression, ignores the basic human rights of two thirds of the indigenous people of Palestine. No conscientious human rights advocate can be so selective, hence racist.



KF: The rights-based approach is, of course, a hallmark of the BDS movement. In a recent speech, you noted, “It is not a Jewish issue. It’s an Israeli colonial apartheid issue, and it should remain within those parameters.” At the same time, American BDS supporters (e.g. Jewish Voice for Peace) often invoke Jewish values and traditions in their organizing. In the BDS movement, what are the positives and negatives of the mobilization of Jewish identity?


OB: There is no contradiction between evoking the best in Jewish heritage to support the Palestinian struggle for justice and self determination on the one hand and the statement that BDS and Palestinian resistance in general should not be reduced to a Jewish issue or an intra-Jewish debate, as J Street has consciously -- yet abortively -- tried to make BDS, most recently, on the other. Universal human rights should be upheld for all humans and by all humans, regardless of ethnic, religious, national or any other identity attribute. The Palestinian civil society leadership of the BDS campaign, the BDS National Committee (BNC), has strongly endorsed the JVP-led campaign to pressure TIAA-CREF to divest from companies that are complicit in Israel's violations of international law. We see JVP as an important ally in the US. We also have partners in the US Jewish community that fully endorse BDS, such as such as the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, American Jews for a Just Peace, etc.

The fact the JVP, among other Jewish groups, resorts partially to the bright side of Jewish ethics is first up to them and second is something that they should be praised for. They do not attempt to privilege this dimension over human rights and international law. In other words, they do not endorse or try to impose what I call in this US context "Jewish privilege," whereby you cannot criticize or act against Israel and its policies unless you are Jewish, for fear of being labelled as anti-Semitic. We respect diversity and context-sensitive strategizing by our allies and partners. Our main concern is respect for the three basic rights listed in the BDS Call: ending occupation and colonization of the 1967 territory; ending the system of racial discrimination within Israel by establishing full equality; and the right of return for our refugees in accordance with UN resolution 194. JVP endorses these rights, clarity of language or lack of it notwithstanding, and this is the main foundation of our strong and strengthening relationship with them.

By putting tribal allegiance to Israel over fundamental commitment to universal human rights, however, Zionist Jewish organizations in the US and the West in general consciously abet in propagating the racist, indeed anti-Semitic, myth that Israel speaks on behalf of the entire world Jewry and that it is entitled to do so. Reducing Jews to a monolithic group that thinks alike and that is automatically expected to ignore suffering by other humans when the oppressors are themselves Jewish is not only anti-semitic; it is categorically false and deceptive. There is rich diversity among Jews worldwide; many in the leadership of BDS groups in the West as well as in South Africa and elsewhere are Jewish. Many leading cultural figures that have endorsed and advocated BDS are Jewish. All these insist that their humanity comes first and that no oppressor state like Israel can appropriate their wills or speak on their behalf.



KF: A few Jewish Israeli BDS supporters have told me that the tent protests feel like a game changer—that there is a kind of revolutionary feeling in the air. What do you think the tent protests might mean for the BDS movement? Do the demands of the BDS call feel any closer at hand or any more attainable?


OB: My overall assessment of this new Israeli initiative is that it is little more than a creative whitewashing, copycat movement with shallow roots and shallower commitment to real social-political transformation which must be based on justice and human rights. This whole reformist effort is largely led by middle class Ashkenazi Jews who prefer to polish the chains of Israeli apartheid, to borrow from Desmond Tutu, rather than breaking them altogether.

Demanding lower rents and affordable housing is a legitimate and justified demand in any normal country; the problem is, Israel is anything but. Diverting attention from the huge elephant in the room, Israel's occupation, colonialism and apartheid, to the narrow concerns of the Jewish-Israeli, colonial middle class cannot but be seen as an ill-conceived effort, at a minimum, or a downright racist and complicit effort that aims at perpetuating Israel's regime of oppression against the indigenous Palestinians, whether in Israel, in the shatat (exile) or in the occupied Palestinian territory. A struggle to maintain colonial privileges for the Jewish population of Israel at the expense of basic justice for the Palestinians is immoral and colonial to the boot.

Even if we put moral and legal considerations aside, you would think that an honest and rational social movement (if we can even call this movement in Israel that) that is trying to imitate the spreading Arab Spring, would figure out that Israel's military spending added to the overall cost of the occupation, the colonies, their infrastructure, the wall, etc. are the main reason behind the massive inequalities in Israel and the extremely unjust distribution of wealth (one of the highest in the developed world).

It is equivalent to Afrikaaners, say, demonstrating in Cape Town in the 1980s for better housing for the middle class (read: all white), while completely ignoring apartheid and its crimes. It would have been a joke then. It is a joke now--a nasty one. Most Arabs are watching this copycat Israeli attempt in amusement and a good deal of disgust. It is the epitome of hysterical denial of the colonial reality.



http://mondoweiss.net/2011/08/bargho...l-reality.html

RedTrackWorker
19th August 2011, 22:28
With two different nations with claims on one small quite patch of land, and interspersed populations with no practical way to fairly divide it, any other solution just means ethnic cleansing. Much more likely by the Zionists as they have the vastly upper hand, but if the LRP's Palestinian state were established somehow, that would just mean reversing the terms of oppression.

Clearly against the material interests of the Israeli working class, currently in the streets against their government. So it would have to be shoved down their throats by armed force, i.e. the same thing in a "socialist" disguise, compelling them to reunite with their Zionist misleaders and oppressors. And not too doable, as the Israeli state has nukes and is certainly willing to use them if a serious attempt is made to drive all Israelis into the sea.

Chauvinism. It's chauvinism to say that if the Palestinians won their democratic rights (the right of return especially), that would mean oppression of the Israelis and "driving them into the sea". That is Zionist racist propaganda. Many Zionists have a direct material interests in putting forth propaganda that Palestinian rule would mean oppression and death for Israelis, but for groups like the SL, they don't get paid for repeating the chauvinist lies of the Israeli state, it just reflects their aristocratic contempt for the masses, which them and their various shards have been showing more and more lately.

agnixie
19th August 2011, 22:47
...

I see "the Israeli working class can't protest because it's not the right nation".
More bullshit left-nat sucking up of the national bourgeoisie.

RadioRaheem84
19th August 2011, 22:49
What do you mean by an exceptionalist mentality with politics?

American politics no matter how liberal or progressive has a tinge of exceptionalism embedded in it.

I was wondering if what was the same for Israeli left politics.

freepalestine
19th August 2011, 22:56
I see "the Israeli working class can't protest because it's not the right nation".
More bullshit left-nat sucking up of the national bourgeoisie.national "bourgeoisie"you'll have to explain yourself a little better.so ignoring zionism/and remnants of colonialism wherever,would be opposing or siding with the national bourgeiousie(??).because i dont think you read this part of the article i posted.....at least understand it.





KF: A few Jewish Israeli BDS supporters have told me that the tent protests feel like a game changer—that there is a kind of revolutionary feeling in the air. What do you think the tent protests might mean for the BDS movement? Do the demands of the BDS call feel any closer at hand or any more attainable?

OB: My overall assessment of this new Israeli initiative is that it is little more than a creative whitewashing, copycat movement with shallow roots and shallower commitment to real social-political transformation which must be based on justice and human rights. This whole reformist effort is largely led by middle class Ashkenazi Jews who prefer to polish the chains of Israeli apartheid, to borrow from Desmond Tutu, rather than breaking them altogether.

Demanding lower rents and affordable housing is a legitimate and justified demand in any normal country; the problem is, Israel is anything but. Diverting attention from the huge elephant in the room, Israel's occupation, colonialism and apartheid, to the narrow concerns of the Jewish-Israeli, colonial middle class cannot but be seen as an ill-conceived effort, at a minimum, or a downright racist and complicit effort that aims at perpetuating Israel's regime of oppression against the indigenous Palestinians, whether in Israel, in the shatat (exile) or in the occupied Palestinian territory. A struggle to maintain colonial privileges for the Jewish population of Israel at the expense of basic justice for the Palestinians is immoral and colonial to the boot.

Even if we put moral and legal considerations aside, you would think that an honest and rational social movement (if we can even call this movement in Israel that) that is trying to imitate the spreading Arab Spring, would figure out that Israel's military spending added to the overall cost of the occupation, the colonies, their infrastructure, the wall, etc. are the main reason behind the massive inequalities in Israel and the extremely unjust distribution of wealth (one of the highest in the developed world).

It is equivalent to Afrikaaners, say, demonstrating in Cape Town in the 1980s for better housing for the middle class (read: all white), while completely ignoring apartheid and its crimes. It would have been a joke then. It is a joke now--a nasty one. Most Arabs are watching this copycat Israeli attempt in amusement and a good deal of disgust. It is the epitome of hysterical denial of the colonial reality.

Crux
20th August 2011, 01:52
I see "the Israeli working class can't protest because it's not the right nation".
More bullshit left-nat sucking up of the national bourgeoisie.
Well, there certainly is legitimate criticism to be made of the, yes, largely middle-class leaders of these protests and their fear of bringing up the national question. And then there's freepalestines "Lolisraelisprotestinglol"-approach. I noticed "A Marxist Historian" again repeated the claim that the israeli CWI's position is somehow "left-zionist". Given the part I have quoted and the article's I have linked I would like him to explain how exactly.

RedTrackWorker
25th August 2011, 12:47
You're avoiding the question in bold. One can say "red is green" and one can say "we're against apartheid, ethnic cleansing, etc. and we're for an Israeli state" but the claim the ISL and LRP make is that in fact (not in words or in theory) you cannot have an Israeli state without apartheid or ethnic cleansing. If the right of return and end of occupation is granted in fact, what would be the legitimate basis for an Israeli state as the Palestinians would be the clear majority from the river to the sea?

Majakovskij has still not answered the question.

Also, there's now a more developed response to the CWI's slander charge from the ISL up at http://www.lrp-cofi.org/statements/isl_responds_to_cwi_082411.html and posted on the forum here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/isl-responds-cwi-t160267/index.html?p=2216222#post2216222).

freepalestine
25th August 2011, 22:25
http://www.revleft.com/vb/isreals-left-now-t160239/index.html?t=160239

quite good article from amira haas

RedTrackWorker
21st October 2011, 05:49
Posted is a critique by the ISL of an Arab nationalist rejecting the Israeli housing protests completely:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolutionary-position-regarding-t163068/index.html?p=2269844#post2269844

freepalestine
21st October 2011, 07:38
do you know if he has responded to that ?

RedTrackWorker
21st October 2011, 08:01
do you know if he has responded to that ?

I don't think so.