london riots august '11, thread II

[Sasha]

continued from here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/riots-tottenham-police-t159251/index.html?p=2202109#post2202109

please consider this an newswire thread, indept discussion (and/or name calling) as much as possible in separate threads please

[PublicEnemy#1]

UKIP MEP Gerard Batten calls for British soldiers to be withdrawn from warzones and redeployed against rioters.


There are jobs those who want them... They're being filled by qualified Eastern Europeans who can speak English...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7W-K0eMw0&feature=player_embedded

UKIP MEP Nigel Farage says "I would have thought the logical thing to do was to call the army in."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV1il-z4O0A&feature=player_embedded

[tachosomoza]

I liked the other thread better. :crying:

[Tim Finnegan]

UKIP MEP Gerard Batten calls for British soldiers to be withdrawn from warzones and redeployed against rioters.


There are jobs those who want them... They're being filled by qualified Eastern Europeans who can speak English...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7W-K0eMw0&feature=player_embedded

UKIP MEP Nigel Farage says "I would have thought the logical thing to do was to call the army in."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV1il-z4O0A&feature=player_embedded
Thank Christ that there's no elected official less relevant than a UKIP MEP, then.

[scarletghoul]

Thank Christ that there's no elected official less relevant than a UKIP MEP, then.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2011/01/Nick-Clegg.jpg

[Geiseric]

Any news on GB's main left parties comments yet?

[Welshy]

Any news on GB's main left parties comments yet?

Lenina posted the SPEW's statement:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2202023&postcount=1032

[PhoenixAsh]

Here is an unfinished one by the ICT posted by Stagger Lee

http://www.revleft.com/vb/riots-britain-fruit-t159380/index.html

[Who?]

Here's the Socialist Workers Party's official statement.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25645

[S.Artesian]

At least the SWP doesn't "condemn" the violence, or denounce as the expression of "capitalist ideology" the smash and grab actions.

[Os Cangaceiros]

LONDON - Residents of a London housing estate laughed at a televised plea by police for parents to call their children and help rein in the youths who looted and burned swathes of the city.

Not only were some of the parents at the riots themselves, but many of those taking part were not the hooded, teenage delinquents on which many have pinned the blame for the worst street riots Britain has seen for decades.

"Some of the parents were there. For some parents it was no big surprise their kids were there. They've gone through this all their lives," said an Afro-Caribbean man of 22 who gave his name as "L", voicing the frustration and anger felt by youth and parents over yawning inequalities in wealth and opportunity.

"I was on the train today in my work clothes and shoes. All different types took part in the riot. The man next to me was saying everyone who rioted should be gassed. He would never have guessed that I was there, that I took part," he said.


http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/London+rioters+resent+media+image+hooded+teen+thug/5233682/story.html#ixzz1Ug7LhhPC (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/London+rioters+resent+media+image+hooded+teen+thug/5233682/story.html#ixzz1Ug7LhhPC)

sorry if this has already been posted.

[scarletghoul]

Lenina posted the SPEW's statement:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2202023&postcount=1032
My god, what a load of shite, i cant believe it.. tho its not surprising considering this is the party that thinks prison guards and the uvf will be leading the revolution


This year in Britain, the day that has frightened the government most was 30 June, when 750,000 public sector workers took strike action. do they really believe that ?? if they do then the socialist party of england and wales is a joke. really. some teachers taking the day off is apparently the pinnacle of our struggle, everyone... christ.. lol..


If, as we demanded, the TUC had conducted a serious battle to defeat the government, mobilising its seven million members, the government could have been forced from office by now.
If the TUC had called a national demonstration against cuts in October last year, mobilised for joint action with the students in November, and called a one-day public sector strike, it would have mobilised huge popular support, and would have been able to act as a pole of attraction for the most oppressed sections of young people.
bla bla bla if if if... if an army of magical marshmallow monsters had parachuted down from the sky and taken control of the means of production and the state and handed them directly to the workers, that would be pretty cool too, but so what ?? when will you people learn that the unions are not revolutionary organisations, they are part of the establishment.the most 'radical' thing weve seen according to the SPEW is some teachers taking the day off to try and keep their middle class pensions. it really is a pathetic position to take, the SPEW has become nothing but an irrelevant middleclass-union-cling-on who thinks that by walking around with signs and leaflets etc they willl make revolution.. get real, if there is ever a revolution in the uk its gonna be at the hands of the 'chav scum' who are literally fighting capitalism on the streets

[L.A.P.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498



Rioters identified on CCTV face eviction say councils

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54515000/jpg/_54515250_missselfridge.jpg Miss Selfridge on Market Street, Manchester was one of the first shops to be set alight
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498#story_continues_1) England riots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14452097)



As it happened: England riots day five (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675)
Map with video and timeline (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14436499)
Morning after another violent night (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14479285)
Broom army reclaim streets (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14475741)



Rioters in Manchester and Salford have been told that they face being evicted from their council homes if they are identified on CCTV footage.
Both city councils have issued warnings that if any of their tenants or their children have been involved in violence or looting they will be "thrown out".
Meanwhile Greater Manchester Police said the first two men had been jailed for riot-related disorder offences.
It is understood they received sentences of 10 and 16 weeks.
Councillor Paul Andrews from Manchester City Council said: "If you are a tenant of any of our properties, and you or your children are found to be involved in the looting we will use whatever powers are available to us to make sure you are thrown out.
"Most people who live in our properties respect their neighbours and play by the rules.
"Those who do not, and who are found to be involved in this sickening criminal activity, could find their tenancies at risk."
Officers from Salford and its housing provider, Salix Homes, are reviewing CCTV images to see if they can help identify offenders.
Councillor John Merry, leader of Salford City Council, said: "Anyone who can do this to their own city is not welcome in Salford.

Footage posted online appears to show police beating a suspect

"We need to make sure these people understand their actions do have consequences, and the consequences for some of them could mean they lose their homes."
GMP said that extra magistrates' courts were sitting throughout the evening to deal with the number of riot hearings expected.
Through Twitter it said the two jail sentences were "swift justice" and "the first of many".
The jailed men were a 38-year-old who received 10 weeks for using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour; and an 18-year-old who was sentenced to 16 weeks in youth custody for the same offence.
Unprecedented violence Meanwhile footage has appeared on the YouTube website which appears to show police with batons hit a suspected rioter in Manchester.
It is unclear when the incident on Jutland Street, close to Manchester Piccadilly railway station, took place.
In a statement, Greater Manchester Police said its officers were faced with extraordinary and unprecedented levels of violence.

It went on to say that, as the circumstances surrounding footage of the incident were unknown it was inappropriate to comment further.
Manchester's Arndale Centre announced on its website that it closed at 17:00 BST and will re-open for business on Thursday morning.
The centre closed at about the same time on Tuesday after a gang of 25 youths tried to smash their way into its JD Sports store.
In another development, three people have been arrested after looted items from Cash Converters were recovered at a house in Salford.
Two men, aged 22 and 27, and a 23-year-old woman were arrested on suspicion of theft from Salford Shopping City.
Not enough Greater Manchester Police has admitted it was overwhelmed by the "unprecedented levels of violence" as thousands of youths looted shops in the city centre and set cars on fire.
The devastation caused prompted hundreds of people to join in a clean-up operation in the city centre, sweeping up broken glass and boarding up shop windows.
Meanwhile, Graham Stringer, Labour MP for Blackley & Broughton, has criticised police for not doing enough to stop the trouble.
He said he believed the chief constable "has a lot to answer for".
"It was known that this was coming to Salford and Manchester, and now shops have been looted and set on fire.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54516000/jpg/_54516217_jex_1132286_de47-1.jpgClick to play





Police tried to control masked youths in Manchester

"It was co-ordinated and organised by well-known criminals and gangsters.
"A lot more people should have been arrested for inciting this kind of behaviour."
Mr Stringer also questioned why police officers failed to make more arrests in the face of widespread vandalism and looting.
When people were smashing windows and setting fire to shops, people weren't being arrested," he said.
"I support the police very strongly but my side lost last night."
'Shameful destruction' Assistant Chief Constable Garry Shewan said more than 1,000 officers were deployed with support from neighbourhood staff and some officers from other forces.
However, he admitted they were "overwhelmed" by the number of rioters.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498#story_continues_2) Analysis

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50664000/jpg/_50664257_laura_yates.jpg Laura Yates BBC North West Tonight
This morning in Manchester the overwhelming emotion was one of resilience - those coming into work this morning seemed determined to get Manchester back to normal.
Yes there was plenty of damage, yes, there was shops boarded up and closed. But those that could open this morning, did.
Everywhere you looked this morning there were volunteers - small groups, big groups, all with brooms and dustpans, many of them with one message painted on one cheek - the words "I love Manchester" daubed in red and white make up.
A group of 16-year-old students were there because they were determined to show that not all young people in Manchester were bad. They just felt they said they had to do something to help.
In many ways, though, much of the work had already been done. In the few hours between the last of the disturbances and early morning - the council had been hard at work.
All shops were boarded up, glass swept from the streets - the Manchester of early this morning was very different than that of late last night.

"Last night's shameful destruction saw some of the worst scenes I have ever witnessed as a police officer," he said.
"We saw swarms, hundreds, in fact, thousands of people intent on criminal violence coming into the city centre.
"We were taking attacks on our officers, we were protecting property where we could, but the numbers were so large."
But Mr Shewan denied police officers "stood and watched" while crimes were committed.
"There were occasions where the crowds were so large and so violent that it would have been unsafe to deploy a handful of officers into those situations.
"It's very sad that businesses have been looted in this way and it's been a sickening night for the city centre of Manchester.
"But we say to the people of Greater Manchester we need your help in identifying the people responsible."
Councillor Paul Murphy, chair of Greater Manchester Police Authority, said: "GMP has been faced with unprecedented and widespread levels of violence and disorder and the police authority praises the force for their hard work and dedication.
"There have been many messages of support for the police over the last few hours and this support is now needed more than ever, so we can bring those responsible for attacking our cities to justice."
GMP has released pictures online of people it wants to speak to in connection with rioting in Manchester and Salford on Tuesday
'Free stuff' The violence started at Salford Shopping City in the middle of Tuesday afternoon, where rioters attacked police and set fire to shops.
Councillor Pat Karney, of Manchester City Council, said the violence marked "one of the worst days that Manchester has ever seen".
He said children as young as nine joined in the violence.
When the BBC asked two youths why they were rioting, one responded: "Why are you going to miss the opportunity to get free stuff that's worth loads of money?"
But they also claimed it was in response to government cuts.
One added: "How many people have they arrested really, though, 10? I'm not really bothered. I'll keep doing this every day until I get caught."
GMP said they were called to 800 incidents in the city centre overnight and about 130 in Salford.
Ten officers were injured, including one who suffered a broken ankle.
Greater Manchester Fire Service reported 155 fires across the city centre and Salford.
About 100 business premises and a number of police vehicles were damaged.
A BBC radio car was set alight, as was a car belonging to a reporter.

[AnonymousOne]

This video is very prophetic, don't know if it's been posted before.

gI2fJmr7GPI

[Dogs On Acid]

Isn't this basically a tone argument? I mean, I don't disagree with the criticisms of the tone at that particular point in the article, but you're not really engaging with the substance of their comment- that this sort of opportunistic looting is illustrative of a lack of political conciousness- so much as offering an alternative definition of "ideology".

The looting messed it up. It is being now being used as a weapon against the working-class and is alienating any sympathy to the riots.

Edit: And that's not to bring up the Racism it's inspiring against blacks in Britain.

BQksa-KSV4Y

[PhoenixAsh]

The message and self respecting revolutionary should put out is that these events happend for very specific reasons. That these reasons are that the system creates poverty, hopelesnes and destroys futures. That these people have been tied to the economic whipping post for decades and that this is a logical outcome if years of exploitation.

Any politicians outrage over this is fake. They have been instrumental and they are guilty of helping create a large and growing disenfrachised and alienated group of people who have no hope in this system of their voices being hurt or their lieves being though of as relevant.

The looting; the burning down of houses and stores; the beatings...all that is just a side effect of the results of this policy nothing more and nothing less.

That the only alternative to prevent this from happening is to change the system.

Any other message we send out only plays in the hands of authority and capitalism. Do not make knee jerks. Do not defend the specific acts. Just coninue to explain that this nihilism is the result of decades of policy and economic exploitation....hammer home the root causes and the fact that this will happen again and again and again if things do not change.....engage in debate. Refuse to name these people thugs and criminals...instead continue to point out the root causes and the real cuprits..

[RadioRaheem84]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/viral-videos-swirl-london-200858799.html

Media is trying to show the worst of the rioters in order to pin all the rioters as nothing but thugs and looters.

[Dogs On Acid]

Got this video from RadioRaheem84's link:

biJgILxGK0o

Respect.

[bricolage]

some teachers taking the day off is apparently the pinnacle of our struggle, everyone... christ.. lol..

some teachers taking the day off to try and keep their middle class pensions.

if there is ever a revolution in the uk its gonna be at the hands of the 'chav scum' who are literally fighting capitalism on the streets
It's going to be both the 'chav scum' but also the 'middle class' 'taking the day off', disdain for a section of the class is still disdain whether you are looking up or down. Ironically for you the first person to be taken to court for the riots has been a teaching asssistant, the damn middle class chav scummer...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why do the SWP and SPEW think that we need more demonstration strikes like that of June 30th? I thought the actual march that day was wholly ineffective. In fact it was counter-active in that it really wasted a lot of energy of comrades within the TU movement.

Surely we need to encourage workers of all stripes to work towards the mass strike, not isolated demonstration strikes or protests. It, to me, makes me sense to encourage people to start at the point of economic strikes. There should be plenty such opportunities in the next few years, the economy will double-dip, and if not will be in a state of stagflation for sure - the BoE has already predicted growth for the year to fall to 1.4% and inflation to top 5% by the year end.

[bcbm]

The Commune’s commentary on Twitter illustrates this tension better, asking how we ‘balance the right and legitimacy of the riot’ against the legitimacy of the people who are scared by the ‘mindless’ stuff’.

That is a largely irrelevant question, as if it even matters how “we”, the small milieu on the radical left, choose to balance it, or what we think about it – we are irrelevant, our judgement is irrelevant, and any attempt to pass moral judgement between different kinds of violence is a betrayal of the revolutionary principle. It is not a revolutionary way of thinking because it fails to look at society and the violence within it as a totality. What is happening is happening, it is the result of forces that it is our task to try and comprehend. And here I think the Fritzl analogy is the right one, because what we have is a new dialectic between the neo-liberal consumerist regime, and the looter, what someone has called the ‘failed consumers’ who no longer see the need to put their demands in political terms, but simply to take what they want.

And that is serious, that is not to denigrate them, that is perhaps the only way in which this could happen, how all those young people left on the margins of our society can engage with it and resist it. This is their expression, the state will do its best to suppress it, but we know for a fact that it will not go away, all the while this society intensifies its austerity. The state is being hollowed out by the demands of finance capitalism and all talk of returning to social democracy is a fallacy and a dream.

We have to remain loyal to this crisis. We have to support the eruption of the unheard and the unspoken in our obscene society. It is pretty fitting that the stock-markets are crashing all around the world, and at the same time, this story is being eclipsed by the violence from below. These are the best conditions we could ever hope for, but now we have to realise that the problem is not the excesses of this or that action, it is that the rioters are simply not radical enough. We have to radicalise them further, we have to politicise them and turn them against the real targets of our alienation and poverty – not working class homes, but the faltering capitalist regime. We have to support the anger, but make the anger political, and thereby turn it into something genuinely powerful and dangerous – a revolutionary moment rather than a riot.


http://thecommune.co.uk/2011/08/09/don%E2%80%99t-moralise-don%E2%80%99t-judge-don%E2%80%99t-take-pictures-%E2%80%93-it%E2%80%99s-time-for-the-riot-to-get-radical/


Foucault theorized that any attempt to create a judicial system, even a judicial system purportedly run by the people, would simply replicate the power structure that we intended to oppose. Nor did he shy away from taking this argument to its logical conclusion. Foucault went as far as embracing historic examples of disturbing mob behavior, explicitly recalling, and implicitly endorsing, the rash of extrajudicial executions carried out during the French Revolution's September Massacres of 1792 when over a thousand people were murdered by revolutionaries. This, for Foucault, was what "popular justice" looks like and even the "moral ideology" that finds these illegal outbursts repellant "must be submitted to the scrutiny of the most rigorous criticism."

. . .

"It is from the point of view of property that there are thieves and stealing," Foucault insisted at the end of his discussion. When we always see looting as nothing but thieving and refuse to grant to it the status of a conscious political act, an outburst of "popular justice" against a corrupt and corrupting capitalist system, we are assuming the point of view of the very forces we are trying to overthrow. The same goes for when we condemn any insurrectionary act that is not accompanied by an insurrectionary tract.

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/blackspot-blog/rioting-revolutionary.html

[Rainsborough]

Why do the SWP and SPEW think that we need more demonstration strikes like that of June 30th? I thought the actual march that day was wholly ineffective. In fact it was counter-active in that it really wasted a lot of energy of comrades within the TU movement.

Surely we need to encourage workers of all stripes to work towards the mass strike, not isolated demonstration strikes or protests. It, to me, makes me sense to encourage people to start at the point of economic strikes. There should be plenty such opportunities in the next few years, the economy will double-dip, and if not will be in a state of stagflation for sure - the BoE has already predicted growth for the year to fall to 1.4% and inflation to top 5% by the year end.

Yeah, now the riots are finished and the establishment is regaining control, we the British left, can go back to planning and organising for the day sometime in the future. Good luck with that comrade.

[Bronco]

Some clear evidence of police brutality http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14482695

It's not even like the guy's resisting arrest (actually it doesn't even look like they're even making an arrest), he stops, gets off his bike, and then they all start laying into him.

Nice to the BBC refusing to condemn or it make any kind of suggestion that the police were in the wrong, they were just "confronting suspected looters" :rolleyes:

[Rainsborough]

It would appear that he's not the only one thats being laid into, there would apear to be others being kicked alongside the fence. And we are all supposed to show sympathy when its the cops getting the rough end, oh yeah. :rolleyes:

[Enragé]

this.

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/08/10/eyes-wide-open-in-london/

Eyes Wide Open in London

Smiling faces, some beneath scarves and balaclavas. This is Hackney, London. Or this was Hackney last night. It is somewhere else tonight and somewhere else again in just a couple of hours. The smiles are because the streets have been taken and nobody is afraid of the police anymore.

Some people say the burning of a police car is not political, that the looting of a shop is egotistical and thuggish, that the smashing of windows is irresponsible. For those who say this is not political they have been living in this city with their eyes shut, not seeing the massive and increasing inequality and social and economic repression. Policy. Housing policy. Urban policy. Welfare policy. Financial policy. With what results – not only are people living in shit housing, with shit jobs, getting shit from police on a daily basis – most can only look forward to more shit as the cut backs and financial crisis hit the bottom hardest.

There are also those who say it is not political because the targets are all wrong – local shops and some housing are unfortunately also amongst the victims. They also say it is not political because the looting is for the black market rather than food and necessities, or because people are stealing bikes and cameras off of spectators but this is not a neatly organised riot as some would have it. This is a reaction, a revolt, a bursting of a bubble of angst, repression, lack of options and possibility and pure boredom and depression. And once that bubble is burst everything is a potential target for revenge for a police murder, but also entertainment, gaining possessions and regaining power over ones existence for a moment, and over the whole city for some days.

Like all street action, each person involved will have their own expression meaning there are constantly ongoing political discussions and arguments between people on the streets on the causes and the actions to be taken. To say these people are not political, to say the people involved are all thugs and not political is a lie. How can the discussion and action on ongoing harassment and police murder not be political? How can discussion about how to react to the problems in the community, the government cuts to education and youth activities, the lack of employment, the lack of even the smallest level of self-determination not be political? How can this many young people all of a sudden be understood only as common thugs and criminals?

In a comment in one newspaper, a newcomer to Hackney complained that while he used to feel safe in the neighborhood, knowing that all the social issues and shootings were internal to the gangs, he was now terrified to leave his house. This is telling of how segregated even the most diverse neighbourhoods are and how problems in communities can be so easily ignored as long as the victims are young and black. In these days the victims are not the young and black.

Apart from fear, how are the rest of the people reacting? Some are furious, furious about the destruction of neighborhoods that have it hard enough, some are organised and defend their neighborhood like the Turkish community in Stoke Newington as the chased a group of rioters away from the area, and some are organising vigils and discussions on the streets to find a different reaction to the killing of Mark Duggan.

Day three, and sirens are still continuously blaring through the streets. All workers in central London were warned by the police to leave work early and go home to avoid the expected evening riots. A COBRA meeting has been held (cabinet office briefing room A) after the Prime Minister was convinced he had to cut his Tuscany holiday short and fly back to London. Rubber bullets have been mentioned, and more police seems to be the only remedy they want to stuff down our throats for a social disease that only became deadly when the police killed a man.

Occupied London collective 09.08.2011

------------

[Enragé]

and this.

http://socialismandorbarbarism.blogspot.com/

If one thinks that the rioters should attack large corporate stores instead of local businesses, one should encourage, actively, on the ground, with an armful of bricks, the former rather than merely denouncing the latter. If one thinks that there should be a formal organization and structuring to what is happening, one should start doing that, rather than bemoan their lack of classical political form. If one thinks that what matters is to defend, with force, homes and businesses, then one should do that, together with others who think that, rather than wait for the police.

[scarletghoul]

and this.

http://socialismandorbarbarism.blogspot.com/

If one thinks that the rioters should attack large corporate stores instead of local businesses, one should encourage, actively, on the ground, with an armful of bricks, the former rather than merely denouncing the latter. If one thinks that there should be a formal organization and structuring to what is happening, one should start doing that, rather than bemoan their lack of classical political form. If one thinks that what matters is to defend, with force, homes and businesses, then one should do that, together with others who think that, rather than wait for the police.
Well said, one of the best posts so far

[scarletghoul]

dont know if this has been posted or not but the fascists have been out trying to turn this into a race thing
rC_VsYxLao4
needless to say this hasnt found its way to the bbc news

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yeah, now the riots are finished and the establishment is regaining control, we the British left, can go back to planning and organising for the day sometime in the future. Good luck with that comrade.

I suppose you were out rioting for the Socialist cause, then? :rolleyes:

[Rainsborough]

I suppose you were out rioting for the Socialist cause, then? :rolleyes:

No, but at least I'm not moralising over it. What kind of revolution do you espouse, one that can be realised or one that entails another hundred years or so of utopian dreaming?

Most of the reformist left has come out in soldarity with the now thrice blessed saint Cameron, will you be joining them?

[Rusty Shackleford]

all them baseball bats that just sold in london better be trained on these EDL bastards.

[Matty_UK]

I've been active on and off with the left for quite a few years now, dropping in and out of activity and working with - occasionally even joining - a number of Trotskyist or Anarchist organisations.

What I've always wondered is why there is a complete lack of any attempt to engage with the sort of people now rioting, the long term unemployed population, excluded from the formal economy. These riots show that these people would be very open to the idea of revolution - that this outburst takes the form exclusively of looting and random violence is testament to our fairly to spread the seeds of revolutionary socialist ideas amongst the disenfranchised. This is a revolt without an ideology - with an ideology, it would become an insurrection.

The key problem, in the UK at least, is that left wing activists are usually well educated and would be regarded by the people rioting as "middle class" and treated with hostility and suspicion. And for their part, even if it's not said, I suspect university educated activists are a bit scared of the disenfranchised underclass, and not without reason. Thought about this issue is neatly avoided by an obsession with the history of the labour movement which encourages a fetishism of workplace activity as the core of socialist activity - so a lot of our activity amounts to tagging along to actions by unionised workers, largely in the public sector and trying to defend the welfare state.

But the situation has changed and we can no longer just do what we always do. What I found most disappointing about my time in the SWP was they seemed to be an autopilot most of the time, tagging along with protests, selling papers, supporting the actions of trade unionists and so on, calling demos, but there was never any attempts made to initiate anything, and newer members who suggested good ideas seemed to be brushed aside as naive for saying things that weren't part of the Central Committee's agenda, which was ultimately reactive rather than proactive.

There are some problems with the current approach;
- Most unionised workers are in the public sector. Strikes in this sector may sometimes have a positive political impact, but they do not really affect the capitalists that much.
- To use a bit of Marxist jargon, the organic composition of capital is too high compared to previous ages and this has made widespread unionisation of the private sector almost impossible. To imagine unions can make a comeback is an example of the sort of backwards looking mindset that dominates the left. Casualisation of labour, and the growth of temporary contracts makes it exceedingly difficult to unionise effectively and meaningfully. Moreover, as most people work in services rather than production, establishing a workers council would not mean that much.
- A novelty of the neoliberal era of capitalism is a large population of those who are permanently unemployed and will be for generations. In the past, they would be sent off to colonies, or return to the countryside. These are no longer possibilities. As unemployment rises, as it inevitably will for as long as capitalism continues to exist, the disenfranchised underclass will grow, and it's conditions will deteriorate.

If we are to establish communism nowadays, it cannot be done by workers taking over their workplaces and kicking out the boss. We have to consider the role of the world's growing population of the perpetually unemployed, from North African slums to North American and European sink estates. The sort of looting we've seen in the UK undermines property and the market in such a way that it could potentially be revolutionary if those involved have sufficient foresight - the breakdown of the state's ability to defend property could, if perpetuated and well planned, lead to a planned economy of distribution so long as there is also co-operation between the unemployed and the workers who have the skills and training to keep the machine running once the rule of property is defeated.

In short, we need to start organising the sink estates and making links between them and the workers.

[Matty_UK]

A good extract from Alain Badiou's "The Communist Hypothesis" that I think is relevant to what I was saying about the need for the permanently unemployed to connect up with workers.


At the time May '68 was getting under way, I was
a lecturer in Reims. The university (which was i n
fact a small university centre where a first-year
foundation course was about the only thing on offer)
went on strike. So one day we organized a march to
the Chausson factory, which was the biggest factory
in town to have gone on strike. That sunny day, we
marched in a long, compact procession towards
the factory. What were we going to do when we got
there? We didn't know, but had a vague idea that the
student revolt and the workers' strike should unite,
without the intermediary of the classic organizations .
We approached the barricaded factory, which was
decked with red flags, with a line of trade unionists
standing outside the gates, which had been welded
shut. They looked at us with mingled hostility and
suspicion. A few young workers came up to us, and
then more and more of them. Informal discussions
got under way. A sort ofloeal fusion was taking place.
We agreed to get together to organize joint meetings
in town. The meetings went ahead, and became
the matrix for the estahlishment of the 'Chausson
solidarity fund'. This was something completely
new and had links with the Union des Communistes
de France marxiste-Ieniniste (UCFml), the Maoist
organization established in late 1969 hy Natacha
Michel, Sylvain Lazarus, myself and a fair numher
of young people.
What happened at the gates of the Chausson
factory would have heen completely improhahle, even
unimaginahle, a week earlier. The solid union and
party dispositij usually kept workers, young people
and intellectuals strictly apart in their respective
organizations. The local or national leadership was
the only mediator. We found ourselves in a situation
in which that dispositij was falling apart hefore our
very eyes. This was something completely new,
and we were both immediate actors and hewildered
spectators. This was an event in the philosophical
sense of the term: something was happening hut
its consequences were incalculahle. What were its
consequences during the ten 'red years' between
1968 and 1978? Thousands of students, high school
students, workers, women from the estates and
proletarians from Africa went in search of a new
politics. What would a political practice that was
not willing to keep everyone in their place look like?
A political practice that accepted new trajectories,
impossible encounters, and meetings between people
who did not usually talk to each other? At that point,
we realized, without really understanding it, that if
a new emancipatory politics was possible, it would
turn social classifications upside down. It would not
consist in organizing everyone in the places where
they were, but in organizing lightning displ acements,
both material and mentaL
I have just told you the story of a blind displacement.
What inspired us was the conviction that we had
to do away with places. That is what is meant, in
the most general sense, by the word 'communism':
an egalitarian society which, acting under its own
impetus, brings down walls and barriers; a polyvalent
society, with variable trajectories, both at work and
in our lives. But 'communism' also means forms
of political organization that are not modelled on
spatial hierarchies. That is what the fourth May '68
was: all those experiments were testimony to the fact
that an impossible upheaval was taking place. It was
politically possible to change places, thanks to a new
kind of prise de la parole and the tentative search for
forms of organization adequate to the novelty of the
event.

[bcbm]

london police raiding houses (http://news.yahoo.com/london-police-raiding-houses-over-uk-riots-084047983.html)

militant groups fuel the fire (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/militant-groups-fuel-the-fires/story-e6frg6zo-1226112637489) <- if only

[Tim Finnegan]

militant groups fuel the fire (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/militant-groups-fuel-the-fires/story-e6frg6zo-1226112637489) <- if only
This... What... I... How does... What? :blink:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I've been active on and off with the left for quite a few years now, dropping in and out of activity and working with - occasionally even joining - a number of Trotskyist or Anarchist organisations.

What I've always wondered is why there is a complete lack of any attempt to engage with the sort of people now rioting, the long term unemployed population, excluded from the formal economy. These riots show that these people would be very open to the idea of revolution - that this outburst takes the form exclusively of looting and random violence is testament to our fairly to spread the seeds of revolutionary socialist ideas amongst the disenfranchised. This is a revolt without an ideology - with an ideology, it would become an insurrection.

The key problem, in the UK at least, is that left wing activists are usually well educated and would be regarded by the people rioting as "middle class" and treated with hostility and suspicion. And for their part, even if it's not said, I suspect university educated activists are a bit scared of the disenfranchised underclass, and not without reason. Thought about this issue is neatly avoided by an obsession with the history of the labour movement which encourages a fetishism of workplace activity as the core of socialist activity - so a lot of our activity amounts to tagging along to actions by unionised workers, largely in the public sector and trying to defend the welfare state.

But the situation has changed and we can no longer just do what we always do. What I found most disappointing about my time in the SWP was they seemed to be an autopilot most of the time, tagging along with protests, selling papers, supporting the actions of trade unionists and so on, calling demos, but there was never any attempts made to initiate anything, and newer members who suggested good ideas seemed to be brushed aside as naive for saying things that weren't part of the Central Committee's agenda, which was ultimately reactive rather than proactive.

There are some problems with the current approach;
- Most unionised workers are in the public sector. Strikes in this sector may sometimes have a positive political impact, but they do not really affect the capitalists that much.
- To use a bit of Marxist jargon, the organic composition of capital is too high compared to previous ages and this has made widespread unionisation of the private sector almost impossible. To imagine unions can make a comeback is an example of the sort of backwards looking mindset that dominates the left. Casualisation of labour, and the growth of temporary contracts makes it exceedingly difficult to unionise effectively and meaningfully. Moreover, as most people work in services rather than production, establishing a workers council would not mean that much.
- A novelty of the neoliberal era of capitalism is a large population of those who are permanently unemployed and will be for generations. In the past, they would be sent off to colonies, or return to the countryside. These are no longer possibilities. As unemployment rises, as it inevitably will for as long as capitalism continues to exist, the disenfranchised underclass will grow, and it's conditions will deteriorate.

If we are to establish communism nowadays, it cannot be done by workers taking over their workplaces and kicking out the boss. We have to consider the role of the world's growing population of the perpetually unemployed, from North African slums to North American and European sink estates. The sort of looting we've seen in the UK undermines property and the market in such a way that it could potentially be revolutionary if those involved have sufficient foresight - the breakdown of the state's ability to defend property could, if perpetuated and well planned, lead to a planned economy of distribution so long as there is also co-operation between the unemployed and the workers who have the skills and training to keep the machine running once the rule of property is defeated.

In short, we need to start organising the sink estates and making links between them and the workers.

I think that's an excellent post, though i'd just make a couple of points:

That Trade Unionism has clearly failed as a tool for revolution does not necessarily undermine the argument for workplace empowerment and emancipation. What has changed is that, presently, the Trade Unions are not the vehicles by which revolutionary consciousness amongst the workforce can ferment. You are right, however, to identify a link between the perpetually unemployed, economically active (A greatly overlooked economic group in society) and the organised and employed working class. The seeds for this need to be laid and grown outside of the Trade Unions and, I should add, both the Menshevik and Bolshevik styles of political organisation.

Also, a great problem at this time is that, as you comment, there is no proper existent link between sink estates and the organised left, and as these riots were very much a spontaneous eruption of anger and violence, there's really little the left could have done in the midst of it all without being open to massive reaction and alienating many of the employed working class who do not seem to have a positive view of the riots.

[Sasha]

This... What... I... How does... What? :blink:


either brilliant satire or the right-wing blogosphere is reaching unfathomed depths of insanity

[CAleftist]

You gotta love the "smart" people-the government, the representatives of Capital-who have systematically and ruthlessly attacked the working class in the UK for many years, who now blame those working class folk for "causing trouble."

Worse, lots of liberals who claim to support the working class, are saying "Crack down on those thugs!"

[Sasha]

either brilliant satire or the right-wing blogosphere is reaching unfathomed depths of insanity

i stand corrected, thats not some silly personal blog, thats from the best selling australian newspaper, an murdoch possesion :huh:

[Tommy4ever]

This... What... I... How does... What? :blink:

My favourite part was where he said that the leftist provocateurs were engineering the riots as a means of justifying their theories own society. :laugh:

There is something quite beautiful in this strained logic that faintly hints that he realises that the riots fit into leftist theory, but are scarcely explainable from his ideological standpoint without some sort of (unseen) outside force being involved.

[bricolage]

violent thugs break into peoples homes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14491173)

[Bronco]

Jesus, this "special edition" of Question Time they have on now is just depressing

[praxis1966]

My favourite part was where he said that the leftist provocateurs were engineering the riots as a means of justifying their theories own society. :laugh:

There is something quite beautiful in this strained logic that faintly hints that he realises that the riots fit into leftist theory, but are scarcely explainable from his ideological standpoint without some sort of (unseen) outside force being involved.

What you're seeing there is a cow chewing its cud. It's a regurgitation of Cold War era rhetoric and thinking in which the establishment of the day tried to label the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr a communist and a member of the international communist conspiracy. As if the only way an African-American would challenge the status quo and start demanding rights was if some white Soviet was whispering sweet nothings in his ear...

It's subtle racism at its finest, to suggest that disenfranchised minority folks would never complain about anything if it weren't for pesky pinkos putting funny ideas in their heads.

[Ele'ill]

Yep the ruling class is upset let's do this again sometime soon.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Yep the ruling class is upset let's do this again sometime soon.

I'm down, especially for some international action.

[Manic Impressive]

Jesus, this "special edition" of Question Time they have on now is just depressing
If those people are anything to go by we're heading for fascism.

[Sasha]

BANGED AND OLUFSEND TO RIGHTS (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/11/banged-and-olufsend-to-rights/)

Case Study One: Gerald Kaufman MP fraudulently claimed £750 for a Bang and Olufsen television on his parliamentary expenses.
He was not prosecuted but asked to repay the £750
Case Study Two: A young woman with no previous is alleged to have looted a Bang and Olufsen television from a store in Manchester
She was remanded in custody to crown court to get a sentence longer than 6 months
PLEASE SPREAD THIS FACT AS WIDELY AS POSSIBLE. …..‘ONE LAW FOR THEM ANOTHER LAW FOR US’……as a certain band once sung.
Kaufman could be seen in parliament today demanding ROBUST action against rioters. Robust…..robust..fucking ROBUST….FUCKING ROBUST…..IF I HEAR THAT AGAIN…………………….ROBUST AAAARGGHH!

[Sasha]

Case study 3:
3 month in jail for £3 theft
From the Guardian 11/08/2011 @ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-day-five-commons-debate-live
A student has today been jailed for six months for looting a £3.50 case of water from Lidl in Brixton, which seems to support the analysis provided by the Guardian datablog that magistrates appear to be taking a hard line with those convicted of riot-related offences.
Nicholas Robinson, 23, was walking back from his girlfriend’s house in Brixton in the early hours of Monday morning when he saw the store on Acre Lane being looted.
Camberwell magistrates court heard the electrical engineering student took the opportunity to go in and help himself to a case of water because he was “thirsty”.
But when the police came in, at around 2.40am, he discarded the bottles and attempted to flee the scene. He was caught and arrested by officers at the scene.
PA reports that there were gasps from the public gallery as district judge Alan Baldwin handed down the maximum penalty he could to Robinson, who has no previous convictions, for his part in the “chaos”.
The judge said: “The burglary of commercial premises in circumstances such as this, where substantial and serious public disorder is or has taken place is commonly known as looting.”
Robinson, of Borough, south London, had pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a charge of burglary.
He claimed it was an “opportunistic” crime, and he only went in when he saw the store unsecure and wanted a drink.
Robinson will have to spend three months in prison before being released on licence.

[tachosomoza]

What you're seeing there is a cow chewing its cud. It's a regurgitation of Cold War era rhetoric and thinking in which the establishment of the day tried to label the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr a communist and a member of the international communist conspiracy. As if the only way an African-American would challenge the status quo and start demanding rights was if some white Soviet was whispering sweet nothings in his ear...

It's subtle racism at its finest, to suggest that disenfranchised minority folks would never complain about anything if it weren't for pesky pinkos putting funny ideas in their heads.

We heard the same thing in Oakland. They love stirring up the race pot.

http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010/07/08/leftist-groups-plan-a-riot-as-oakland-boards-up-downtown/

[Proteus]

Jesus, this "special edition" of Question Time they have on now is just depressing

Its sickening to see people like John Prescott, who was totally complicit in the burning, destruction and looting of Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands of people, get on his high horse about criminality and violence. Fucking murdering hypocrite.

[PublicEnemy#1]

Case study 3:
3 month in jail for £3 theft
From the Guardian 11/08/2011 @ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-day-five-commons-debate-live
A student has today been jailed for six months for looting a £3.50 case of water from Lidl in Brixton, which seems to support the analysis provided by the Guardian datablog that magistrates appear to be taking a hard line with those convicted of riot-related offences.
Nicholas Robinson, 23, was walking back from his girlfriend’s house in Brixton in the early hours of Monday morning when he saw the store on Acre Lane being looted.
Camberwell magistrates court heard the electrical engineering student took the opportunity to go in and help himself to a case of water because he was “thirsty”.
But when the police came in, at around 2.40am, he discarded the bottles and attempted to flee the scene. He was caught and arrested by officers at the scene.
PA reports that there were gasps from the public gallery as district judge Alan Baldwin handed down the maximum penalty he could to Robinson, who has no previous convictions, for his part in the “chaos”.
The judge said: “The burglary of commercial premises in circumstances such as this, where substantial and serious public disorder is or has taken place is commonly known as looting.”
Robinson, of Borough, south London, had pleaded guilty on Tuesday to a charge of burglary.
He claimed it was an “opportunistic” crime, and he only went in when he saw the store unsecure and wanted a drink.
Robinson will have to spend three months in prison before being released on licence.
Three cheers to the British judiciary for ensuring justice (for the elite) is served so righteously. :confused:

[Dogs On Acid]

What are your opinions on rioters smashing small petty-bourgeois shops and the fun they seem to get in destroying peoples cars?

[Coach Trotsky]

What are your opinions on rioters smashing small petty-bourgeois shops and the fun they seem to get in destroying peoples cars?

It's YOUR fault, reformist faux-Lefties. Before you go pointing out the splinter in the eyes of these rebels, you should go pull the huge log hanging from your own eyes. You knew better, you could have acted to defend and advance this rebellion, you ostensibly claim to stand with and for these people, and still you did nothing that clearly distinguishes you from the rest of the bourgeois politicians, nothing to turn this into an effective focused and organized mass fightback movement with wider roots and community support.
All you could do is get on your moralistic classist racist ageist high horse and condemn these people rebelling. It won't be forgotten. The Next Left will bury the counterrevolutionary old Left if it ever dares to take the political stage in the future. As far as I'm concerned, you gave critical support to the ruling class and their cops and the EDL during this rebellion, and you deserve no mercy for that betrayal.

Any revolutionary leftist in the UK should break politically and organizationally from these counterrevolutionary old "Left" groups and their misleaders. They showed in their deeds ---and also in their words of condemnation---where they really stand. Leave them, regroup, reorient to those who have nothing to lose but their chains, defend their rebellion and help these folks learn the lessons needed to advance a more powerful fightback against this system, and prepare for the day when you will help these "Left" traitors choke themselves on the Union Jack flags they're now waving.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Lumpen scum.

0cbVW_QS2eE

[Tim Finnegan]

It's YOUR fault, reformist faux-Lefties. Before you go pointing out the splinter in the eyes of these rebels, you should go pull the huge log hanging from your own eyes. You knew better, you could have acted to defend and advance this rebellion, you ostensibly claim to stand with and for these people, and still you did nothing that clearly distinguishes you from the rest of the bourgeois politicians, nothing to turn this into an effective focused and organized mass fightback movement with wider roots and community support.
All you could do is get on your moralistic classist racist ageist high horse and condemn these people rebelling. It won't be forgotten. The Next Left will bury the counterrevolutionary old Left if it ever dares to take the political stage in the future. As far as I'm concerned, you gave critical support to the ruling class and their cops and the EDL during this rebellion, and you deserve no mercy for that betrayal.

Any revolutionary leftist in the UK should break politically and organizationally from these counterrevolutionary old "Left" groups and their misleaders. They showed in their deeds ---and also in their words of condemnation---where they really stand. Leave them, regroup, reorient to those who have nothing to lose but their chains, defend their rebellion and help these folks learn the lessons needed to advance a more powerful fightback against this system, and prepare for the day when you will help these "Left" traitors choke themselves on the Union Jack flags they're now waving.
Y'know, to be quite frank, this reads altogether too much like a fill-in-the-blanks condemnation for me to take even remotely seriously. You may have a good point in here somewhere, but fuck me if you're actually making it.


Edit: By way of illustration:
It's YOUR fault, reformist faux-Lefties. Before you go pointing out the splinter in the eyes of these rebels, you should go pull the huge log hanging from your own eyes. You knew better, you could have acted to defend and advance this rebellion, you ostensibly claim to stand with and for these people, and still you did nothing that clearly distinguishes you from the rest of the bourgeois politicians, nothing to turn this into an effective focused and organized mass fightback movement with wider roots and community support.
All you could do is get on your moralistic classist racist ageist high horse and condemn these people rebelling. It won't be forgotten. The Next Left will bury the counterrevolutionary old Left if it ever dares to take the political stage in the future. As far as I'm concerned, you gave critical support to the ruling class and their cops and the EDL during this rebellion, and you deserve no mercy for that betrayal.

Any revolutionary leftist in the UK should break politically and organizationally from these counterrevolutionary old "Left" groups and their misleaders. They showed in their deeds ---and also in their words of condemnation---where they really stand. Leave them, regroup, reorient to those who have nothing to lose but their chains, defend their rebellion and help these folks learn the lessons needed to advance a more powerful fightback against this system, and prepare for the day when you will help these "Left" traitors choke themselves on the Union Jack flags they're now waving.

------

It's YOUR fault, socialist faux-Americans. Before you go pointing out the splinter in the eyes of these Tea Party protesters, you should go pull the huge log hanging from your own eyes. You knew better, you could have acted to defend and advance this rebellion, you ostensibly claim to stand with and for these people, and still you did nothing that clearly distinguishes you from the rest of the socialist politicians, nothing to turn this into an effective focused and organized mass fightback movement with wider roots and community support.
All you could do is get on your politically correct liberal high horse and condemn these people rebelling. It won't be forgotten. The Tea Party will bury the liberal socialist Democrats if it ever dares to take the political stage in the future. As far as I'm concerned, you gave critical support to the Democrats and their socialist agenda during this campaign season, and you deserve no mercy for that betrayal.

Any American patriots in the tri-state area should break politically and organizationally from these pinko "centrist" groups and their misleaders. They showed in their deeds ---and also in their words of condemnation---where they really stand. Leave them, regroup, reorient to those who love this country and its values, defend their rebellion and help these folks learn the lessons needed to advance a more powerful fightback against the federal government, and prepare for the day when you will help these "American" traitors choke themselves on the red flags they're now waving.

[scarletghoul]

Extreme yet subtle racism in this CNN piece:


Shock over 'respectable' lives behind masks of UK rioters

Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white.http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/11/ukriots.accused/index.html

[tachosomoza]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGg3WjF3ZmpqLUNuZHNuVDRiUWFhU Gc&hl=en_US#gid=0

List of those who have been to court.

[PublicEnemy#1]

Southwark Council (London's biggest public housing landlord) is using the riots as a pretext to evict people and free up the scarce housing stock for "more deserving types".

Taken from Southwark News 11/08/2011


Council bosses have pledged to come down hard on known rioters by evicting them from council homes.

As the community began to pick up the pieces this week helped by crowds of people with brooms, the council said it was already working with police to draw up lists of named suspects.

Speaking to the 'News', Cllr Ian Wingfield, Deputy Leader and Cabinet member for housing, said: "if it is proven in court that people have been proven guilty of rioting and looting in their own locality in Southwark we have grounds to evict them. As a responsible authority, we're acting in a manner that I'm sure most of our residents want us to act in.

"We're currently compiling intelligence and proactively trying to identify anyone involved in the disturbances. Where these people are council tenants we intend to use full powers available to us within the law, to ensure they are evicted from our properties."

Asked if families of rioters might also face eviction as a result, he added: "It will depend on who the tenancy holder is. We will have to look at it on a case-by-case basis, and we will of course not throw vulnerable or innocent people out on the streets. But we want to send out a message that his behaviour will not be tolerated and parents have a responsibility to make sure their children behave in a certain way. There are consequences."

Two other councils - Greenwich, Barking and Dagenham - have also made eviction threats.As a Southwark Council tenant, you are required to have a photograph taken of you to verify your identity. Looks like Southwark is going to share with their database of tenants photos with the police in order to help them finger people they can't identify.

[bcbm]

looters apologize to communities for causing two days of visits by politicians (http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2011/08/10/looters-apologise-to-communities-for-causing-two-days-of-visits-by-politicians/):lol:

[Cynic]

To be honest these riots will probably achieve about as much as the L.A. riots in 1992. Not a whole lot.

[Rooster]

You guys should read the comment section of the Metro:


With the level of wanton hooliganism and destruction spreading across our country, simple words from the prime minister are not enough. These incidents are not political demonstrations but simply an excuse for gang culture, which has been on the rise in recent years, to boil over.

So, David Cameron et al, here is the answer, at least in the short term. Once all these hooligans have been arrested and are awaiting trail, instead of being out on bail boasting to their mates about grabbing a new TV from Currys or a new BlackBerry from Carphone Warehouse during the 'protests', get them in chain gangs across the country and out fixing our roads.

This would work in a few ways. It would be a real punishment for these people and it also means the honest, law-abiding citizens of this once proud country would actually feel a benefit for once. In addition, perhaps the thread of being part of a public display of criminals might deter others in the future.
Words can't express the disgust I feel about what's been happening in our country over the past few days. And I'm sick to the back teeth of listening to bleating left-wing politicians saying it's because of government cuts etc. This was nothing but out and out criminality by gangs of thugs thinking there was safety in numbers. The time has come for this country to come to its senses, arm the police now, use whatever force is necessary to halt things like this. Can you imagine any other country in Europe putting up with what we've put up with? That last sentence made me laugh (in italics), particularly that whenever there's a riot in France, people here generally support it and wish that it would happen here.


I have the perfect solution to all of this rioting: Bring back flogging in public. Fifty lashes minimum for anyone caught up in all this madness. And then let's see if they do it again and drag this country's name through the mud.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Since the government has made no indications whatsoever that it will do any scaling-back of its planned cuts, I think more and more of the "right-on" types who post angry denunciations of the rioters and call for armed police and chain gang and public flogging and all that bullshit will find themselves in a sticky situation, and not because of the rioters.

[Bitter Ashes]

While I was in London yesterday I saw that loads of coppers were riding around in privately hired vans. Also, while I was trying to get into/out of the courts, the place was swamped with cut-throat journos trying to get pictures of the private sector prison vans. How long has this been going on???

[electro_fan]

these "punishments" seem more to be about making an example and further undermining of the welfare/social housing system under the guise of punishment, than anything else

[Bronco]

The Independent featured an interesting article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boff-whalley-in-defence-of-anarchy-2336159.html) today by Boff Whalley, the British Anarchist.

While some of his analysis seems a bit off the mark ("all the [rioters] want is to do some free shopping and have a laugh") it's good to see one of the mainstream national newspapers offer a platform for an Anarchist perspective and to make some attempt at refuting the common misconceptions around Anarchism

Another interesting feature (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/why-oh-why-the-week-the-pundits-ran-riot-2336317.html) they did was a selection of comments from major pundits and celebrities about the riots, take a look at this from Daily Mail columnist Max Hastings:


[The rioters] are essentially wild beasts... They respond only to instinctive animal impulses — to eat and drink, have sex, seize or destroy the accessible property of others. Their behaviour on the streets resembled that of the polar bear which attacked a Norwegian tourist camp last week. They were doing what came naturally and, unlike the bear, no one even shot them for it...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

[bricolage]

in a new twist the kurdish shop owners of Hackney (I think) praised by the state and police as standing up to the rioters denounce the 'repressive state apparatus of the British imperialist state' and call for people to rise up against the police.
aIr0ES-gwhc

[bricolage]

'the establishment figures are taking it for granted that the police officers who are on the frontline are enforcing this unequal capitalist society that is based on exploitation and racism are the ones who have a legitimate right to go around shooting people, and when the people rise up and start to speak their own language they are being told that they are mindless thugs, that they are criminal elements, who are the real violators here?'

[S.Artesian]

Why is that "nuts"? Why isn't rational for them to defend themselves, and/or there shops, but not want to call on the police to do that?

Got jumped once by 3 young African-American kids about 0300 some years back-- I did the best I could. One other guy walked down the street as the tussle was going on and said "Do you want me to call the police?" Told him no. Never crossed my mind to call the cops. If the cops had shown up, somebody would die. This was during Giuliani time. Cops would have shot one or more of those kids without blinking an eye. No way I was going to be part of that.

[bricolage]

Why is that "nuts"? Why isn't rational for them to defend themselves, and/or there shops, but not want to call on the police to do that?
No you're right, I actually edited my post cos I thought the same thing.
I think I've probably just been reading too many newspaper reports of the 'defenders' and forgot how falsified they could be.

[Tim Finnegan]

in a new twist the kurdish shop owners of Hackney (I think) praised by the state and police as standing up to the rioters denounce the 'repressive state apparatus of the British imperialist state' and call for people to rise up against the police.
aIr0ES-gwhc
Now this is interesting. Do we know anything about the people making this, or what community organisations they are associated with?

[electro_fan]

thing is, that's not to say that all the shopkeepers agree with him, and i know people, that live in the area that would have exactly the opposite view probably (although maybe not now they're feeling calmer/less scared)

i think we have to be very careful looking it in a black and white way tbh ... i'll admit i have very little idea on how to proceed tbh

[Tim Finnegan]

thing is, that's not to say that all the shopkeepers agree with him, and i know people, that live in the area that would have exactly the opposite view probably (although maybe not now they're feeling calmer/less scared)
Well, do remember that petty bourgeois shopkeepers are as much a minority among the Asian communities as among white communities, they just figure more prominently in the public perception of those communities, much in the same way that, in the inter-war period, pub landlords were disproportionately prominent among the Irish community. What will be important, I think, is for Asian workers to be able to move past the petty bourgeoisie and professionals who often act as community leaders, and organised themselves on a class basis, rather than simply on an ethnic or community basis. Asian communities has demonstrated themselves to be entirely capable of this before, if able to act in cooperation and solidarity with the white working class and so not forced into a racialised margin, so I have no doubt that they're more than capable of doing it again.

[L.A.P.]

in a new twist the kurdish shop owners of Hackney (I think) praised by the state and police as standing up to the rioters denounce the 'repressive state apparatus of the British imperialist state' and call for people to rise up against the police.
aIr0ES-gwhc

After seeing the comments on videos like this and the London riots, I can honestly say the British right-wing make me lose far more faith in humanity than the most raging Tea Party moron.

[electro_fan]

yeh i know, but i was thinking more about people whose cars, houses (not necessarily shops) had been set alight etc,

[bricolage]

David Starkey on anti-patois racist rampage.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

[rednordman]

Ironically for you the first person to be taken to court for the riots has been a teaching asssistant, the damn middle class chav scummer... Indeed! but surprise surprise! No-one mentions that do they? Its the UK, and its one rule for one group of people and another for everyone else.

[Cencus]

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1455638_mum-jailed-for-six-months-for-wearing-pair-of-looted-shorts-

Just can't think what to say about, just makes me wanna go and punch a copper/judge/politician.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Hasn't it been demonstrated that harsher punishments are no better at deterring crime?

[Cencus]

Hasn't it been demonstrated that harsher punishments are no better at deterring crime?

I think thats still under debate, but it certainly appeals to the "string em up by the bollocks" crowd. [under debate as in the right haven't released there skewed research papers yet]

Even from a law and order perspective the OTT sentences being handed out are gonna be counterproductive; no one who thinks theres the slightest chance of getting off is gonna plead guilty, even if they think they will be convicted they'll go for not guilty just to stay out the nick for a while, hoovering up more police/court rescources, folks are gonna think twice before handing themselves in, again wasting more police time chasing em down, this will also get more backs up on the one law for them angle.

[scarletghoul]

was gonna post the kurdish/turkish video in a seperate thread cuz its a fucking remarkable speech that everyone in britain needs to hear, not least the 'leftists' who side with the pigs.

[scarletghoul]

thats what i meant about the turkish maoist movement, it seems to have real support among the turkish and kurdish people (at least in london)

[Jose Gracchus]

Intellectuals can say stuff like "the whites have become black" on official news programs in England? Jesus. Even on Hannity you would have to employ more codewords and obfuscation and mealy-mouth than that.

[bricolage]

zenga zenga, I think you are right but on another level it also seems to confirm devrims hypothesis that the remnants of turkish maoism have partly been reduced to the petit-bourgeoisie.

[scarletghoul]

zenga zenga, I think you are right but on another level it also seems to confirm devrims hypothesis that the remnants of turkish maoism have partly been reduced to the petit-bourgeoisie.
Im not sure that the people who made that statement are petty-bourgeois. If anything i would guess they are the working class section of the community, as they do address the turks and kurds who were protecting their shops but only in passing and in a way which suggests those pettybourgeoisie are not among those making the statement

[bricolage]

Im not sure that the people who made that statement are petty-bourgeois. If anything i would guess they are the working class section of the community, as they do address the turks and kurds who were protecting their shops but only in passing and in a way which suggests those pettybourgeoisie are not among those making the statement
i'll have to watch the video again, I was under the impression those making it were the shopkeepers. if not I think it takes away one of the important dimensions of it, still a badass speech though.

[bricolage]

Following from the recent London riots, the Metropolitan Police Service says it is moving forward with its plans to cover the Notting Hill Carnival. London Notting Hill Carnival Ltd said “the Metropolitan Police Service has not asked us to cancel the event.” (http://mnialive.com/global-connect/uk/1167-notting-hill-carnival-will-not-be-cancelled-this-year.html)

Which means a few things;
1. Even more than previous years carnival will be policed to the walls, except mass stop and searches, raids and potential shutting down of certain soundsystems.
2. The usual conflicts with the police at carnival will be probably intensified.
3. Thankfully summer hasn't been cancelled.
-AYhQoy3YXU

[bricolage]

Zero tolerance: The moment armed officer holds a gun over the head of a 15-year-old boy on Manchester high street (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025721/Armed-officer-holds-gun-head-boy-15-Manchester-high-street.html)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/14/article-0-0D6CA2EC00000578-674_634x411.jpg

[Bitter Ashes]

Fucking hell. A picture says a thousand words don't it?

I'm watching something on Pick TV right now about the looters. I reccomend folks watch it on +1 if they're in the UK. These kids are talking consumerism and class war and hatred of the state and capitalism. Why are there still people against these kids?

[Coach Trotsky]

Fucking hell. A picture says a thousand words don't it?

I'm watching something on Pick TV right now about the looters. I reccomend folks watch it on +1 if they're in the UK. These kids are talking consumerism and class war and hatred of the state and capitalism. Why are there still people against these kids?

Exactly! Check your class allegiance, folks. What side are you on, folks?

[Bitter Ashes]

Those ranting about shops and that, take a good hard look at your allies:
- Tory, Lib Dem and Labour politicians
- The coppers
- The EDL, BNP and other assorted fascist organisations
- Middle England's houseprice brigade
- Capitalists
- News Corp/Associated Press/etc

You standing with them? Or are you standing with you class? Anyone who chooses to support these scumbags over our own is no brother, or sister of mine.

What do we do? Well, I ain't got all the answers. I'd think that prisoner support should be part of it though.

[La Comédie Noire]

The top most rated comments are fucking disgusting. Why do people hate young kids so fucking much?

[DarkPast]

The top most rated comments are fucking disgusting. Why do people hate young kids so fucking much?

Some things that come to mind:

1) conservative mindset - kids need a strong father figure to keep them disciplined

2) disdain for the poor - and kids are usually poor

3) taking out frustrations (due to the economic crisis, or the system in general) on a convenient scapegoat - it's easier to blame these problems on the "lack of morals" or "laziness" among the youth than to see the broader picture (a systemic crisis)

[Thirsty Crow]

3) taking out frustrations (due to the economic crisis, or the system in general) on a convenient scapegoat - it's easier to blame these problems on the "lack of morals" or "laziness" among the youth than to see the broader picture (a systemic crisis)
Not only is it easier to moralize in this way, but it is also a matter of systematic induction not to develop a critical knowledge nor even interest in issues exceeding that of personal responsibility and individual strategies of coping with the supposedly natural harshness of life. That's how the ideological apparatuses work.

[RedHal]

Turkish and Kurdish Labourers and Traders Must Refuse to Be Pitted Against the Black People

To the attention of the Press and the Public:


As it is known, last Saturday a protest took place outside Tottenham police station in order to attain answers or explanations as to how and why Mark Duggan, a father of four, was killed by the police on Thursday 4th August. The events were unleashed as a result of the police physically attacking a 16 year old girl who on behalf of the protestors, all of whom had demanded justice, entered the police station, after waiting for around 4-5 hours outside of the station, to acquire an explanation regarding the killing.

The events that had began in Tottenham, which is an area in which a large number of migrant Kurds and Turks live, very quickly spread to Enfield, Hackney, Edmonton, Islington and other regions in and outside of London. Such events represent the outburst of the oppressed people and, in particular, the youth, against their social and economic conditions. The question that we should ask ourselves is what are the actual reasons for the outburst of the youth?

The youth are one of the worst affected sections of society from the crisis in the world and the cuts that have taken as a result of the crisis. As a result of these cuts, 8 out of 13 Youth Services have been closed. And such cuts are not unique to Haringey. The removal of or tightening the conditions for being granted Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA), Tuition Fees going to 9 thousand pounds, the low level of educational attainment in deprived areas, the removal of support from students that are experiencing problems in secondary schools or referring these students to other institutions are just some of the problems that are experienced by the youth. According to official figures the number of unemployed youth is 1 million. Youth unemployment in deprived areas, like, Haringey and Hackney, is higher. As a result of the cuts not only has there been an increase in the level of redundancies but there has also been an increase in the unemployment levels and poverty levels. The stop and search practice by the police is very high in deprived areas and in areas where the migrants live. A black or ethnic youth is times more likely to be stopped and searched than a white youth. An egocentric and consumerist lifestyle has thus far been imposed on the youth. At a time when poverty and unemployment have risen, the dream of educational achievement has vanished, the closure of the Youth Services where the youth socially and culturally do express themselves has occurred, a rise in the level of police oppression has taken place, the vision for a better future has eroded, such outbursts do take place and they're social outburst. Let's not forget that the Turkish and Kurdish youth are also a part of the youth in this country and therefore Turkish and Kurdish youth and their future are also at stake as a result of such cuts.

Turkish and Kurdish Labourers and Traders Are Being Pitted Against the Black People

The members of our community, all of whom have been forced to flee from their homeland for economic and political reasons, are being swayed to not be alongside but against these waves of riots. We are witnessing the development of an instinctive tendency to protect their small shops and at times attack the youth. Surely the traders have the right to protect their shops. But such events should not be use to pit the Turkish and Kurdish community against the Black community. Such event should not be used to strengthen the prejudices that the oppressed and migrant communities have against each other. We, the people of Turkey and Kurdistan, should act in a prudent way and not fall for the trap of pitting migrant communities against each other. Moreover, we should demand that those who have killed Mark Duggan are found and held to account via the completion of the Inquiry into his death.
Long Live Fraternity!
Britanya Halk Meclisi
Fed-Bir
KNK
Halkevi
Roj Women
Kurdish Community Centre
DAYMER (http://www.daymer.org/) (Turkish and Kurdish Community Centre)
NLCH (North London Community House)
Tohum Cultural Centre
GİK-DER (Refugee Workers Cultural Association)
Komkar

[Sasha]

August 13, 2011 (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/alarm-statement-on-uk-riots/)
ALARM STATEMENT ON UK RIOTS (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/alarm-statement-on-uk-riots/)

Understanding The Riots – Where Next?

Since last Saturday, a situation has escalated around the UK, with eruptions of long-repressed anger in most major cities. Whilst this anger may have certainly, at times, taken on forms that we disapprove of, we all know where this anger comes from. We are all suffering at the moment. Trying to make ends meet can be a living nightmare – benefits, jobs and healthcare going down the drain whilst the cost of housing and living rises sharply. Not to mention systematic Police harassment on our streets, daily injustice and deaths in police custody. For those right at the bottom of the pile, the young and unemployed, it seems like everything they were brought up on was false. The promise of easy credit, easy access to consumer goods, an education and social support. All this just disappears into smoke when the rich decide we don’t deserve it anymore; when they are desperate to save their system from the consequences of their own greed.

We condemn:
* The police, the political elite and the media for creating an atmosphere of fear, justifying greater state repression.
* The opportunism of the EDL/BNP and other far right groups

We refuse to condemn:
* People who looted high street chain stores, pawn shops, betting shops, banks and other symbols of capitalism.
* People who attacked the police, police property, courts, probation services and other symbols of the state.

We are inspired by:
* All the people who stood up for each other in the face of attack by the police and other violent gangs
* The communities that stood outside preventing arson to neighbouring flats, houses and locally-owned businesses.

But whilst we are categorically against the arson of homes, the muggings and the burglaries, are we really surprised this is happening? Here is a whole generation brought up on Thatcherism and Blairism – two ideologies that totally glorify individualism and ruthless competition. That have gone out of their way to destroy working class solidarity and colonise our areas with wealthy young professionals. That place those who trample on their communities for their own personal gain up on pedestals. These ideologies have BRED gangster behaviour amongst the poor and the only way we can counter such behaviour is by rebuilding our community spirit NOW, in spite of these doctrines, out of the ashes of this rebellion.
We are also categorically against any notion that greater police powers are a remedy to this situation, that the violence of the state and of capitalism is somehow preferable to the violence of those in our communities. Even if it was preferable, it would solve nothing – the problem here is inequality and injustice. Only we can bring about equality and justice; working together to advance our collective interests. We believe that when we build strong communities, we have a better chance of fighting back and winning. When we assemble to support each other through the difficulties of recession, instead of hiding away in our homes. When we get on the streets to defend our communities from any kind of attack. When we strike against our bosses instead of taking it on the chin. When we allocate resources for the benefit of the many and not the few. When we organise to take back what is rightfully ours instead of submitting to the thieves in Westminster and the City. When we target the rich and the state and not each other.
Whilst the riots may have taken their toll on our communities, there is no turning back now. We cannot wish them away. The screams of our youth have been heard; its time we turned them into the battle cries of our class.

Against ALL attacks on our community! For EVERYONE against the system!

ALARM! – All London Anarchist Revolutionary Movement
www.soundthealarm.org.uk (http://towerhamletsalarm.wordpress.com/www.soundthealarm.org.uk)
www.facebook.com/Alarmists (http://www.facebook.com/Alarmists)
Also statement from the ‘Porkbolter’ here:
http://www.eco-action.org/porkbolter/riots.html

[Sasha]

August 13, 2011 (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/mum-of-two-gets-5-months-for-accepting-looted-shorts/)
MUM OF TWO GETS 5 MONTHS FOR ACCEPTING LOOTED SHORTS (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/mum-of-two-gets-5-months-for-accepting-looted-shorts/)

Greater Manchester police tweeted this earlier – but now removed:
“Mum-of-two, not involved in disorder, Jailed for FIVE months for accepting shorts looted from shop. There are no excuses!”

How does this compare to punishment for our MPs and crooked cops? These bastards are having a field day with war on the poor.
There’s going to be a greater settling of accounts coming soon. Woman jailed is Ursula Nevin.

[Sasha]

HELP US PUT AN END TO GANG VIOLENCE (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/14/help-us-put-an-end-to-gang-violence/)

http://anarchistmedia.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/gang-violence.png?w=425&h=601&h=601 (http://anarchistmedia.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/gang-violence.png)
Click here to download a free PDF of our GANG VIOLENCE poster. (http://anarchistmedia.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/gang-violence.pdf)
SPREAD FAR AND FUCKING WIDE COMRADES
Low ink version can be found here…
https://anarchistmedia.wordpress.com/2011/08/14/get-these-thugs-off-our-streets/
Full Technicolor version down-loadable here…
https://anarchistmedia.wordpress.com/2011/08/14/help-put-an-end-to-gang-violence/

[Thirsty Crow]

August 13, 2011 (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/mum-of-two-gets-5-months-for-accepting-looted-shorts/)
MUM OF TWO GETS 5 MONTHS FOR ACCEPTING LOOTED SHORTS (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/mum-of-two-gets-5-months-for-accepting-looted-shorts/)

Greater Manchester police tweeted this earlier – but now removed:
“Mum-of-two, not involved in disorder, Jailed for FIVE months for accepting shorts looted from shop. There are no excuses!”

How does this compare to punishment for our MPs and crooked cops? These bastards are having a field day with war on the poor.
There’s going to be a greater settling of accounts coming soon. Woman jailed is Ursula Nevin.
I don't even know how can I be shocked at...stuff like this. And their wondering why would people want to bash pig skulls and set some piggy cars on fire.
But what's the legal basis for the charge? Accessory in theft? Moral corruption transpired into criminal law?

[brigadista]

handling stolen goods...there is an article from the local paper linked on the link posted here

[Os Cangaceiros]

Worker's Solidarity Movement on the riots:

http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/15210

(sorry if it was already posted somewhere)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Those ranting about shops and that, take a good hard look at your allies:
- Tory, Lib Dem and Labour politicians
- The coppers
- The EDL, BNP and other assorted fascist organisations
- Middle England's houseprice brigade
- Capitalists
- News Corp/Associated Press/etc

You standing with them? Or are you standing with you class? Anyone who chooses to support these scumbags over our own is no brother, or sister of mine.

What do we do? Well, I ain't got all the answers. I'd think that prisoner support should be part of it though.

This is unfair.

There is a difference between being critical of:

a) elements of the rioters who were clearly NOT poor and were just plain criminal, AND
b) heavily criticising the act; that is, the riots, not the fact of the uprising

and opposing working class uprisings/supporting the groups you mentioned.

Why can't somebody state their opposition to the trashing of working class homes and peoples' shops without supporting the police, the tories or Margaret fucking Thatcher?

[Coach Trotsky]

This is unfair.

There is a difference between being critical of:

a) elements of the rioters who were clearly NOT poor and were just plain criminal, AND
b) heavily criticising the act; that is, the riots, not the fact of the uprising

and opposing working class uprisings/supporting the groups you mentioned.

Why can't somebody state their opposition to the trashing of working class homes and peoples' shops without supporting the police, the tories or Margaret fucking Thatcher?

Because if you and/or your group wasn't actually out there trying to advance this rebellion for a better outcome, then essentially you are just doing what the enemy powers-that-be and their lackeys are doing.
The very first thing anyone calling themselves a Leftist should say is that we support this rebellion and it is right for those at the bottom of this society to rebel! If you didn't say that loudly and clearly from the beginning, then you sound just like the goddamn British mainstream media mouthpieces. If you wonder where the right-wing cultural and political shift is coming from now...it because even goddamn so-called Leftists are moralistically wringing their hands and blaming those at the bottom of society who rebelled instead of playing along with their pathetic "progressive" reformist dead-end schemes. Ah,they say it's really 'obviously' just about a bunch of entitlement mentality lazy undisciplined spoiled brats who thing they can run around and act like animals...isn't that the popular line being sold by the enemy media and parroted about in Britain now? The British Left could have firmly established a different popular narrative about this upheaval from below, but no, instead they are so damn accustomed to losing that they concede everything on a knee-jerk reaction, and too busy grovelling inside the 'middle class' trying to get dead-end schemes off the ground instead of actually intervening and establishing roots and winning recruits and developing a grassroots fightback against this system inside these worse-off neighborhoods of the more precarious workers, the oppressed peoples and among youth. Clearly the British Left has at least one foot still standing with this system, and this is shown most of all by how they respond to spontaneous rebellion initiatives by the people whose interests we're supposed to be championing!

All the British "Leftists" who condemn actions of the rebels have themselves to blame for not being there to support and advance this rebellion to a better outcome. They CHOOSE instead to criticize those at the bottom who were rebelling from afar, right along with the powers-that-be and their lackeys and their many 'middle class' system defenders. The fact that those at the bottom of society choose not to go to the Left but instead to rebel on their own without anyone's fucking say-so or political 'wink and nod' shows that they don't feel the Left really gives a shit about them and don't think the Left would really do anything for them...AND THEY'RE RIGHT TO BELIEVE THAT AT THIS POINT. The people at the bottom don't give a crap about your trendy leftie crap or about your reputation in 'middle class' circles or about your personal electoral or academic careerist aspirations...it ain't all about you, and we're not your pawns or servants for you to climb up society's ladders to 'success' upon our backs, or your subordinate inferiors to chastise (in order top make yourselves look better and as if you had higher social value) when we've behaved in a way that isn't deemed 'polite' or 'classy' enough by your bourgeois and middle class peers. Take off those faux-halos before you get clowned from below, middle-class self-righteous "Leftists". If you are really so much better then us at the bottom, come out into the streets, do your work, and prove it to the masses! Put up or shut up! Otherwise, don't be surprised when the masses at the bottom express that "we've never known you, so get out of our face and out of our way".

Having said that, thankfully I think some here have lost some illusions and grasped some of the lessons from this recent rebellion in England (though I suspect most of these are comrades outside of England, unfortunately).

[S.Artesian]

The very first thing anyone calling themselves a Leftist should say is that we support this rebellion and it is right for those at the bottom of this society to rebel! If you didn't say that loudly and clearly from the beginning, then you sound just like the goddamn British mainstream media mouthpieces.

Word. WORD!

[Cencus]

2 lads were given 4 years for attempt to incite a riot in thier home town via facebook. Nothing happened, no riotious mob emerged, no shops were looted, no coppers had missiles thrown at them, nothing was set on fire, just 2 facebook groups with a few members. For that they are now doing 4 years.

http://blog.cps.gov.uk/2011/08/cps-statement-on-convictions-of-two-men-for-inciting-disorder-using-social-media.html CPS statement on the prosecutions (no mention that sod all happened)

OK not the most intellegent thing to do, creating a facebook group in your own name inciting a riot but certainly not worth 4 fucking years.

[Tifosi]

New mural in London.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2011/08/483509.jpg

[Sasha]

http://anarchistmedia.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/free-the-children.jpg

Spread everywhere...

[Ele'ill]

Can you get me a link to a file? I think this might be useful.

[Sasha]

Can you get me a link to a file? I think this might be useful.

http://anarchistmedia.wordpress.com/2011/08/17/no-freedom-without-free-speech/

[Red Commissar]

Here's an interesting little image I saw posted over at Kasama:

http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/two-riots.jpg

This was from an earlier "riot", that is the Student Demos against the cuts, but I think it is just as valid concerning the way the state will react to these things.

[Rainsborough]

Originally Posted by Coach Trotsky http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2208385#post2208385)
Having said that, thankfully I think some here have lost some illusions and grasped some of the lessons from this recent rebellion in England (though I suspect most of these are comrades outside of England, unfortunately).

A good point, especially the part in brackets. So have the British left learned anything, or are we to return to planning and dreaming?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Because if you and/or your group wasn't actually out there trying to advance this rebellion for a better outcome, then essentially you are just doing what the enemy powers-that-be and their lackeys are doing.
The very first thing anyone calling themselves a Leftist should say is that we support this rebellion and it is right for those at the bottom of this society to rebel! If you didn't say that loudly and clearly from the beginning, then you sound just like the goddamn British mainstream media mouthpieces. If you wonder where the right-wing cultural and political shift is coming from now...it because even goddamn so-called Leftists are moralistically wringing their hands and blaming those at the bottom of society who rebelled instead of playing along with their pathetic "progressive" reformist dead-end schemes. Ah,they say it's really 'obviously' just about a bunch of entitlement mentality lazy undisciplined spoiled brats who thing they can run around and act like animals...isn't that the popular line being sold by the enemy media and parroted about in Britain now? The British Left could have firmly established a different popular narrative about this upheaval from below, but no, instead they are so damn accustomed to losing that they concede everything on a knee-jerk reaction, and too busy grovelling inside the 'middle class' trying to get dead-end schemes off the ground instead of actually intervening and establishing roots and winning recruits and developing a grassroots fightback against this system inside these worse-off neighborhoods of the more precarious workers, the oppressed peoples and among youth. Clearly the British Left has at least one foot still standing with this system, and this is shown most of all by how they respond to spontaneous rebellion initiatives by the people whose interests we're supposed to be championing!

All the British "Leftists" who condemn actions of the rebels have themselves to blame for not being there to support and advance this rebellion to a better outcome. They CHOOSE instead to criticize those at the bottom who were rebelling from afar, right along with the powers-that-be and their lackeys and their many 'middle class' system defenders. The fact that those at the bottom of society choose not to go to the Left but instead to rebel on their own without anyone's fucking say-so or political 'wink and nod' shows that they don't feel the Left really gives a shit about them and don't think the Left would really do anything for them...AND THEY'RE RIGHT TO BELIEVE THAT AT THIS POINT. The people at the bottom don't give a crap about your trendy leftie crap or about your reputation in 'middle class' circles or about your personal electoral or academic careerist aspirations...it ain't all about you, and we're not your pawns or servants for you to climb up society's ladders to 'success' upon our backs, or your subordinate inferiors to chastise (in order top make yourselves look better and as if you had higher social value) when we've behaved in a way that isn't deemed 'polite' or 'classy' enough by your bourgeois and middle class peers. Take off those faux-halos before you get clowned from below, middle-class self-righteous "Leftists". If you are really so much better then us at the bottom, come out into the streets, do your work, and prove it to the masses! Put up or shut up! Otherwise, don't be surprised when the masses at the bottom express that "we've never known you, so get out of our face and out of our way".

Having said that, thankfully I think some here have lost some illusions and grasped some of the lessons from this recent rebellion in England (though I suspect most of these are comrades outside of England, unfortunately).

I agree with much of what you say.

However, it is still possible to support rebellion by the lowest in society, but not to support the nature of this rebellion. And this is from somebody who isn't abroad and was near the thick of it, so i'm not chatting out my arse.

But yeah, i'm just one person, you're right that organisations and leftist movements should have been out on the ground supporting the nature of rebellion amongst the rioters, but directing them towards a more fruitful way of rebelling.

Like i've said, I don't think that these riots will do anything other than backfire in the short-medium term. What they will do, however, is intensify the class struggle and we can learn from ours and their mistakes this time round, i'm sure that, due to the actions of the ruling class in response to the riots, there will be more civil unrest in the coming months/years and we must do better next time.

[Coach Trotsky]

PLEASE read this post:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/august-uprising-britain-t160007/index.html?t=160007

[Tim Finnegan]

A good point, especially the part in brackets. So have the British left learned anything, or are we to return to planning and dreaming?
I've learned that some leftists will call the slightest scuffle a "rebellion" if they think they can get away with it. Apart from that, I think we're in the same territory as Zhou Enlai was with the French Revolution, and I'm not quite so desperate to engage in the tiresome posturing that dear Coach Trotsky appears to be so very deeply in love with that I'm going to pretend otherwise.

[Rainsborough]

I've learned that some leftists will call the slightest scuffle a "rebellion" if they think they can get away with it. Apart from that, I think we're in the same territory as Zhou Enlai was with the French Revolution, and I'm not quite so desperate to engage in the tiresome posturing that dear Coach Trotsky appears to be so very deeply in love with that I'm going to pretend otherwise.

Great, so next time perhaps those involved with a "scuffle" should identify themselves with big banners. Perhaps bearing the words, "Not a scuffle, rebellion in progress"

[Tim Finnegan]

Great, so next time perhaps those involved with a "scuffle" should identify themselves with big banners. Perhaps bearing the words, "Not a scuffle, rebellion in progress"
I'm really not sure what you think you're parodying here. Do you actually have a point to make beyond sanctimonious posturing? If so, it surely wouldn't be that hard to just come out and make it.

[S.Artesian]

I've learned that some leftists will call the slightest scuffle a "rebellion" if they think they can get away with it. Apart from that, I think we're in the same territory as Zhou Enlai was with the French Revolution, and I'm not quite so desperate to engage in the tiresome posturing that dear Coach Trotsky appears to be so very deeply in love with that I'm going to pretend otherwise.


This was hardly the "slightest scuffle." Zhou Enlai was referring to the May '68 rebellion in France, not that of the late 18th century.

There's no need to posture about anything.

The riots represented against the years of police rousting kids and residents of these neighborhoods, against years of police intimidation, and the fact that there is no future in England's dreaming, as Johnny Rotten sings.

From there it gets chaotic, muddled, fucked-up, with all sorts of opportunistic elements riding the pony for their own reasons. That's how these things unfold in the real world. That's what makes this a rebellion in the real world.

Bottom line is, that it is better that it did happen warts and all, than if it had never happened, without warts.

[Tim Finnegan]

This was hardly the "slightest scuffle."
I know that, yeah, I was being ironically hyperbolic(/British).


Zhou Enlai was referring to the May '68 rebellion in France, not that of the late 18th century.
That so? You learn something new everyday. (Although the analogy still follows...)


There's no need to posture about anything.

The riots represented against the years of police rousting kids and residents of these neighborhoods, against years of police intimidation, and the fact that there is no future in England's dreaming, as Johnny Rotten sings.

From there it gets chaotic, muddled, fucked-up, with all sorts of opportunistic elements riding the pony for their own reasons. That's how these things unfold in the real world. That's what makes this a rebellion in the real world.
I'm with you up until the last sentence, although I'll admit that I don't know how much of that is a conceptual disagreement and how much is just semantics on my part... I suppose what may be more accurate to say is that I'm sceptical of the term "rebellion" as used by posters like Coach Trotsky, who seem to envision this as some of working-class proto-insurgency, rather than a confused episode of incoherently expressed anger against the police and certain other sectors of the establishment, with all the obnoxious calls for "revolutionary intervention" and a "platoon sergeant" of a vanguard party which that seems to entail. It seems to me a very sloppy, frankly rather wilful analysis of the events.


Bottom line is, that it is better that it did happen warts and all, than if it had never happened, without warts.
This I certainly agree with.

[S.Artesian]

who seem to envision this as some of working-class proto-insurgency, rather than a confused episode of incoherently expressed anger against the police and certain other sectors of the establishment, with all the obnoxious calls for "revolutionary intervention" and a "platoon sergeant" of a vanguard party which that seems to entail.

Well, it certainly isn't some sort of "proto-insurgency," and that bit in bold, yeah that's enough to gag a maggot, undoubtedly.

[A Marxist Historian]

This was hardly the "slightest scuffle." Zhou Enlai was referring to the May '68 rebellion in France, not that of the late 18th century.

There's no need to posture about anything.

The riots represented against the years of police rousting kids and residents of these neighborhoods, against years of police intimidation, and the fact that there is no future in England's dreaming, as Johnny Rotten sings.

From there it gets chaotic, muddled, fucked-up, with all sorts of opportunistic elements riding the pony for their own reasons. That's how these things unfold in the real world. That's what makes this a rebellion in the real world.

Bottom line is, that it is better that it did happen warts and all, than if it had never happened, without warts.

Was it better that it happened than if it had not happened? That requires crystal balls, and is besides the point anyway. The point is that you have to be on the side of the revolting youth on the streets, not on the side of the oppressors. That unfortunate things happened in the course of this rebellion is utterly secondary "collateral damage."

The Brit ruling classes kill far more than 6 people on a daily basis with their killer cuts in social services in Britain. Not even to speak of what British imperial oppression is still doing abroad.

Frankly, I don't think that the consequences of this will be good, but I don't see why that matters.

What this all really proves is that the absence, not just of a revolutionary party, but of a revolutionary movement in Britain has tragic and unfortunate consequences. Time to reread Lenin's "What Is To Be Done."

Oh and by the way, Chou was in fact talking about the 18th Century revolution in France. He was making a funny.

-M.H.-

[S.Artesian]

Oh and by the way, Chou was in fact talking about the 18th Century revolution in France. He was making a funny.

No, he was not. He was talking about May 68. Kissinger's translator recently "spilled the beans" on the whole episode. Kissinger misunderstood what Zhou was referring to, and rather than bring it up, since it made a much better story for the media, Kissinger decided to let it float.

[A Marxist Historian]

No, he was not. He was talking about May 68. Kissinger's translator recently "spilled the beans" on the whole episode. Kissinger misunderstood what Zhou was referring to, and rather than bring it up, since it made a much better story for the media, Kissinger decided to let it float.

Ah. Too bad.

On this I agree with Kissinger. It is a better story. Oh well.

-M.H.-