Riots on the streets of London [Archive]

ComradeMan

9th August 2011, 21:56

I blame YOU for this situation. For the past 20+years the LEFT have been pushing and pushing their libertarian ideals which has caused this situation. Teachers can no longer discipline pupils, the police are constrained and the general public are in fear and despair. YOU have pushed for their ‘human rights’ their right to destroy and plunder at the cost of the ordinary working class. YOU should be ashamed our yourselves!

Hold on a second....

These riots have got fuck all to do with "leftism" it's just criminal vandalism and opportunism. These are not poor people stealing food, these are people who are so "poor" they can use blackberries and internet to organise their attacks- what an insult to the starving poor of Somalia. What the fuck has setting fire to ordinary people's homes, attacking people in the street and rampaging around like this got to do with leftism or the original issue? Nothing! We're so angry we'll steal a pair of trainers! Pathetic! If the left jumps on this wagon then I recommend serious leftists jump off it.

I don't know about Lenin or Mao or whatever, but a real socialist in government would give them jobs, lower tuition for schools, and address their absolutely legitimate concerns.

These kids grew up under the so-called left until last year. Secondly, "governments" don't give people jobs.

RedAnarchist

9th August 2011, 21:57

Rafiq

9th August 2011, 22:07

Ele'ill

9th August 2011, 22:07

I blame YOU for this situation.

Me?

For the past 20+years the LEFT have been pushing and pushing their libertarian ideals which has caused this situation.

This simply isn't factually correct in any way at all.

Teachers can no longer discipline pupils,

Yes, that's because they're supposed to be teaching instead. Go figure, the victims wake up and get to their feet and get blamed.

the police are constrained

What exactly does this even mean?

and the general public are in fear and despair. YOU have pushed for their ‘human rights’ their right to destroy and plunder at the cost of the ordinary working class. YOU should be ashamed our yourselves!

We're the mole people from the center of the earth- you've outed us! If it weren't for you and your meddling dog we could have destroyed all of humanity once and for all!!

We are the general public, we are working class, we share beliefs, we agitate, educate and organize.

Rafiq

9th August 2011, 22:08

All the scum in this thread who oppose the insurrection. What kind of revolutionaries are you? The bourgeoisie will tremble at the might of the proletariat!

Fawkes

9th August 2011, 22:23

How would Lenin, Mao or Castro deal with

I don't care.

(most of whom aren’t working)
Yeah, they're all welfare queens and lazy baby's daddies, right :rolleyes: They must really love that "free ride" they're getting... So, most of the rioters are from predominantly black, low-income neighborhoods and this is somehow proof of their lack of employment? Did you go out and survey a sample pool of rioters to determine that the majority of them don't work? Furthermore, what does their employment status have to do with anything? The unemployed are members of the proletariat and are among the most oppressed.

(some of whom aren’t old enough to work)
So what? You think because someone can't legally be employed means they don't get harassed by police, witness drugs and violence, ignored by the state, subjected to underfunded schools, and packed in cramped ghettos? Yeah, they got a real bright fucking future.

running riot on the streets of our cities?
It's as much theirs as yours.

I blame YOU for this situation.
That makes sense

The load of ass gravy you just spit out is nothing more than a pathetic knee-jerk reaction loaded with implied racism you fucking piece.

Here's something I posted on facebook about the riots. Try reading it, it may encourage you to think just a wee bit:

the fact that there is minimal revolutionary class organization in the affected communities means that the only output for the frustration of years of abuse and oppression is in random acts of destruction. burning down apartment buildings isn't to be championed, but the anger that drives it isn't to be dismissed either, it can be an incredibly potent force. yeah, there are people that want to steal and burn because what they are stealing and burning is everything they could never have. who wouldn't want to create mayhem when order means getting beaten by police, living on foodstamps, and being evicted?

Susurrus

9th August 2011, 22:26

Che a chara

9th August 2011, 22:52

I see it as payback for the English ruling class for continually shitting down the throats of the have-nots and for wilfully assuming that they would passively accept their heavy-handed approach to the economy and the crack-down on protests.

This sort of anger has been simmering for a while since the austerity measures and finally boiled over with the murder of Mark Duggan by the pigs and their ensuing cover-up and lack of transparency over the details of the event and investigation.

The looting and burning seems to have gotten out of hand though with criminal elements just stealing and attacking for fun with no moral compass. Of course it is mostly opportunistic, but it is an attack on the establishment, which might radicalise some working class youths and may force some reforms and manners into the 'law and order'. I'd love to see some direction and properly channelled rioting/demonstrations though.

And why is the OP singling out the left for blame, when quite clearly you can blame the greedy, selfish, individualistic capitalist culture that flashes all sorts of consumer imagery and products on a daily basis that creates a false conciousness of need and material obsession.

9th August 2011, 23:05

Ele'ill

9th August 2011, 23:18

This sort of comes across as a troll thread.

Dr Mindbender

9th August 2011, 23:24

I blame YOU for this situation...blah blah blah

barely a flicker.....

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/images/7/73/Giveafuckometer.gif

Obs

10th August 2011, 01:05

Nox

10th August 2011, 01:18

Thirsty Crow

10th August 2011, 01:22

CommunityBeliever

10th August 2011, 01:26

How would Lenin, Mao or Castro deal with the working class (most of whom aren’t working) (some of whom aren’t old enough to work) running riot on the streets of our cities? Comrades Lenin and Mao were living in VERY different conditions from ours today, so I don't think this question makes much sense.

I blame YOU for this situation. For the past 20+years the LEFT have been pushing and pushing their libertarian ideals which has caused this situation. Teachers can no longer discipline pupils, the police are constrained and the general public are in fear and despair. YOU have pushed for their ‘human rights’ their right to destroy and plunder at the cost of the ordinary working class. YOU should be ashamed our yourselves! WTF?

Thirsty Crow

10th August 2011, 01:46

WTF?
Cultural Marxism.
Multiculturalism as well. The youth and ethnic minorities no longer know their place.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

10th August 2011, 02:57

I blame YOU for this situation. For the past 20+years the LEFT have been pushing and pushing their libertarian ideals which has caused this situation. Teachers can no longer discipline pupils, the police are constrained and the general public are in fear and despair. YOU have pushed for their ‘human rights’ their right to destroy and plunder at the cost of the ordinary working class. YOU should be ashamed our yourselves!

We aren't the ones propping up a tiered education system in which parents fight for places in the "best" schools (shouldn't they all be the "best"?), we aren't the ones targeting poor and ethnic youth in stops and searches and having them die in our custody, and we aren't the ones flooding the media with consumerist propaganda that, surprise surprise, some take seriously and then get fucking pissed off when all the shiny goodies that are paraded daily on the telly and in shop windows aren't available to them.

It's fucking revolting that some people have the condescension to wag their moralist fingers at working class youth who have become sick and tired of being demonised by the media and the government, and express their anger in the most direct way they can - by lashing out at the the authorities and taking what was denied to them.

PhoenixAsh

10th August 2011, 04:09

I blame YOU for this situation.

And rightfully so. I have been planning this for decades. Do you know what effort went in it? Subconsciously influencing an entire nation into getting one neo-con elected after another? Sjeez...I barely had time for a holiday. In the end I wasn't even sure if I could pull it off. Everything was getting a little complicated lately. But it all worked out fine.

YOU should be ashamed our yourselves!
I am, I am...we should and could have done it much sooner. But with my friends all getting kids and all...you know how it goes. You kind of lose focus for a moment there. And there were other things to worry about. Plus there were the health issues. Those didn't help either. So yeah...those are just excuses. I feel really bad, but in the end I got it up an running....a little late though.

But you know what...we'll catch up. And eventually we will be comming for you cappies...don't worry about that. We will make it a little game. Now be a good cappie and play along now...You go run and hide in the woods...and we will find you. K?

Fawkes

10th August 2011, 05:12

This balaclava dude seriously needs to read some Lenin.

Rusty Shackleford

10th August 2011, 05:21

http://www.renishaw.com/media/img/gen/ab704daa2a2e471e84192751951f07ab.jpg

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 09:47

These kids grew up under the so-called left until last year. Secondly, "governments" don't give people jobs.

Yes they can.

I blame YOU for this situation. For the past 20+years the LEFT have been pushing and pushing their libertarian ideals which has caused this situation. Teachers can no longer discipline pupils, the police are constrained and the general public are in fear and despair. YOU have pushed for their ‘human rights’ their right to destroy and plunder at the cost of the ordinary working class. YOU should be ashamed our yourselves!

Yes, shame on us for telling them they should fight against their oppression and expoitation, we should just tell them to shut up and take it.

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 09:49

All the scum in this thread who oppose the insurrection. What kind of revolutionaries are you? The bourgeoisie will tremble at the might of the proletariat!

It's not an insurrection, it's a break down of civil order and opportunistic criminality. Whatever the social causes of this may be, it does not excuse the actions of these people. Thugs robbing young children in the street, setting fire to people's homes? Attacking hair salons? Anyone calling this an insurrection and portraying it as such should re-evaluate their political positions. Lumpens running amok in the street....

Jimmie Higgins

10th August 2011, 10:08

I blame YOU for this situation. For the past 20+years the LEFT have been pushing and pushing their libertarian ideals which has caused this situation.Riots only began 20 years ago?

Teachers can no longer discipline pupilsYou mean paddle?

the police are constrainedObviously not enough.

and the general public are in fear and despair.I blame Voldemort.

YOU have pushed for their ‘human rights’ their right to destroy and plunder at the cost of the ordinary working class.No we don't support austerity, budget cuts, bank foreclosures of people's homes, wars, etc.

YOU should be ashamed our yourselves!But what about their yourselves?

Jimmie Higgins

10th August 2011, 10:16

It's not an insurrection, it's a break down of civil orderthat order being one in which the police harass and abuse people without reaction or consequence.

Whatever the social causes of this may be, it does not excuse the actions of these people. Thugs robbing young children in the street, setting fire to people's homes? Attacking hair salons? Anyone calling this an insurrection and portraying it as such should re-evaluate their political positions. Lumpens running amok in the street....It's an uprising of frustration and anger - riots are unorganized and spontaneous by nature, people might as well criticize a bar fight for not observing standard boxing regulations. You can't have an unjust society with oppression and competition and inequality, i.e. capitalism or feudalism and not also have uprisings and riots of this sort. Moralizing about it is useless and won't do shit about it - if you don't want to see riots, you need to have a different sort of organization of society.

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 10:32

Yes, it would be great if the working class and poor in the UK did things more constructively (like messing up the financial district), and it sucks that other working class people are also the victims in the riots.

But this is what happens when you have a capitalist society, you have groups that get excluded, exploited, dispossesed and shut out, thats why its up to the Left to say to the working class, "things can get better, we can fight back and lets do it in the right way."

robbo203

10th August 2011, 10:41

I don't know about Lenin or Mao or whatever, but a real socialist in government would give them jobs, lower tuition for schools, and address their absolutely legitimate concerns.

A "real socialist" would be more interested in promoting a society in which there was no employment or tuition fees to pay for and certainly not in peddling the same old tired reformist policies of some capitalist Labour Party wanting to having their cake and eat it - wanting capitalism without its attendant problems like unemployment

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 10:52

What would a real socialist in government do concretely then. You can't just "promote" something, you need concrete solutions right now.

RedRaptor

10th August 2011, 11:20

Wow what a great day for rebels and anarchists everywhere. Can you imagine how amazing it would be if this continued? I can see it now, lawlessness consumes many areas of England. The local economy collapses. And as the population starves, the white supremacists roll in and start with the public executions. Awesome.

Sarcasm aside let me spell this out for some of you.
Not... A... Good thing!

robbo203

10th August 2011, 11:23

What would a real socialist in government do concretely then. You can't just "promote" something, you need concrete solutions right now.

Would a real socialist be in government in the first place trying to adminster capitalism in the interests of workers? I doubt it. If capitalism was amenable to "concrete solutions", if it could be adminstered without unemployment and all the other problems that it creates, there would be no point in being a real socialist or in promoting socialism as an alternative to capitalism, would there? You could have your cake and eat it

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 11:45

Thats not an answer, a socialist might be in government fighting for more socialism. Its not all or nothing.

Jimmie Higgins

10th August 2011, 11:47

Its not all or nothing.It is if you believe in dialectics:lol:

robbo203

10th August 2011, 11:52

All the scum in this thread who oppose the insurrection. What kind of revolutionaries are you? The bourgeoisie will tremble at the might of the proletariat!

You are a complete fantasist. This is not some proletarian revolution unfolding before our eyes FFS. It is just a riot which may or may not lead onto other things but which seems at the moment more likely to entrench reactionary political ideas and draw racist scumbags like EDL more into mainstream thinking.

I might be persuaded otherwise if the riot was more disciriminating, class based and politically overt in its form but the sight of young workers attacking other workers and destroying the pitiful possessions of the latter fills me with no confidence that this is some kind of proletarian uprising. At the moment it seems more like Thatchers childen coming home to roost - kids out to grab what they can from whoever they can and for the thrill of it, prompted by a combination of egoistic values and social deprivation. It has actually proved to be extremly divisive of the working class thus far

That might change as lessons get to be learnt but at the moment it is surely not the job of revolutionaries to uncritically revel and rejoice in the rioting per se as if in itself it will somehow mechanistically herald social progress and lead to a deeper questioning of the status quo. Like I say , at the moment the opposite seems more likely. If you doubt that, take the time to read the comments section of webistes like Yahoo News. You will be dismayed, as I was, by how overwhelmingly reactionary such commentary is. Many of the commentators are talking about Enoch Powell and how right he was about immigration. Its frankly sickening

Demogorgon

10th August 2011, 11:59

To give a somewhat serious answer; when the economic, social and political environment becomes like that of Britain where inequality rises to incredible levels, an underclass develops, notions of society helping one another are played down, pushing other people aside in order to get ahead is encouraged and we are encouraged to blame the weakest for societies, then society ends up like a powder keg ready to go off. People are products of their environments and when the environment is like this, just look at what happens. That doesn't justify what is happening, but it does explain it. British society, still following the policies of Thatcher has come to this.

robbo203

10th August 2011, 12:02

Thats not an answer, a socialist might be in government fighting for more socialism. Its not all or nothing.

You really mean fighting for more capitalist reforms (vainly) intended to benefit the workers. The notion of fighting for "more socialism" makes no sense since socialism is a distinct mode of production, quite separate, and qualitatively different, from capitalism.

Besides being "in the govenrment" means, almost by definition, administering a class society which can only ever be adminstered in the interests of those who own and control the means of production. The interests of the capitalists must always take precedence over those of the workers even for the workers to benefit in some token sense. So providing jobs is predicated on the understanding that a profit is made in the process. No profit means no jobs. Thats basic Marxism innit?

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 12:11

The notion of fighting for "more socialism" makes no sense since socialism is a distinct mode of production, quite separate, and qualitatively different, from capitalism.

Heres how you bring in more socialism, you have publically accountable non-profit industries that do not compete in the market ... thats more socialism, you can set up unemployed cooperatives that are publically funded, thats more socialism, you can introduce co-determination laws and empower unions, thats more socialism.

These are all things that are not capitalist reforms, that insert non-capitalist modes of production into the economy and can actually help working class people in concrete ways and help build a movement for more socialism. And in my opinion is a much better thing to fight for than sitting on your ass waiting for some worldwide total revolution that replaces the entire system at once.

Talking about Marxism, Marx was an activist fighting for more democracy, supporting the liberal revolutions, even supporting democratic reforms, he did'nt juts sit and right Das Kapital and wait for some glorious mass and total revolution that will never happen, he fought for more working class power right then and there.

Delenda Carthago

10th August 2011, 12:18

#FF0000

10th August 2011, 12:18

Talking about Marxism, Marx was an activist fighting for more democracy, supporting the liberal revolutions, even supporting democratic reforms, he did'nt juts sit and right Das Kapital and wait for some glorious mass and total revolution that will never happen, he fought for more working class power right then and there.

if you are still fighting for reforms in this day and age you are fuckin up son sorry

#FF0000

10th August 2011, 12:25

It's not an insurrection, it's a break down of civil order and opportunistic criminality.

It was both!

Lumpens running amok in the street....

No, they were working class youth. Just because they weren't doing something you like doesn't mean they weren't workers, sorry. Or, I mean, would be, if there were any jobs.

#FF0000

10th August 2011, 12:30

Hold on a second....
These are not poor people stealing food, these are people who are so "poor" they can use blackberries and internet to organise their attacks- what an insult to the starving poor of Somalia.

Of course the only poor that counts is absolute poverty. I mean, it's not like any worker on the planet owns a nice thing nowadays.

These kids grew up under the so-called left until last year.

So-called.

tracher999

10th August 2011, 12:48

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 12:58

For any one that thinks its reprehensible or unbelievable that these kids, which no opportunities, not much to loose, and who have been left out of all benefits of the economy, might want to grab some free stuff when they have an opportunity too.

Why the hell should they not? From a personal standpoint, you know I don't blame individual bankers for what they do, I blame the system that rewards them for what they do. I blame the system for driving these people to a point to where this is considered a good idea, a system that alienates these people to the point to where this is the reaction.

Do I wish it was organized? yes, Do I wish it was an organizing anti-capitalist uprising? Yes, Do I blame the rioters for the fact that it is not? Absolutely not.

PhoenixAsh

10th August 2011, 13:00

Sooo...they lived under the "left" and there was no riots...now they live under the right, austerity measures, cuts, increased police repression...and there are riots? Yes...I see causality.

robbo203

10th August 2011, 14:07

Heres how you bring in more socialism, you have publically accountable non-profit industries that do not compete in the market ... thats more socialism, you can set up unemployed cooperatives that are publically funded, thats more socialism, you can introduce co-determination laws and empower unions, thats more socialism.

These are all things that are not capitalist reforms, that insert non-capitalist modes of production into the economy and can actually help working class people in concrete ways and help build a movement for more socialism. And in my opinion is a much better thing to fight for than sitting on your ass waiting for some worldwide total revolution that replaces the entire system at once..

Nice try but this won't wash. Nobody is suggesting sitting on your ass and waiting. Nor was anybody suggesting abandoning the day to day stuggle on the industrial front. I was talking specifically about reformism - the idea of implementing measures through the state within the context of capitalist economic constraints and with the intention of benefitting the workers. This is doomed to failure in the long run. The abbatoir cannot be made to operate in the interests of the cattle to slightly doctor a phrase.

What you are advocating is not socialism. The idea of inserting a socialist mode of production into capitalism is without foundation. Non profitable industries are industriries that are subsidised by profitable industries via taxation revenue and therefore are reliant upon the latter. Ditto your publicly funded unemployed cooperatives. There's no such as a free lunch under capitalism. When capitalism hits the bumpers and there's an economic downturn m inevitably funding for all sorts of things are cut. The capitalist state cannot risk killing the golden goose that lays the golden eggs. The need for profit has to take priority. You get into government on your "socialist" ticket of introducing "publically accountable non-profit industries that do not compete in the market" and you will soon enough find yourself backtracking on all your promises and inflcitingt austriery measures on the workers. Thats inevitable. Thats what governments of all stripes do - try to make capitalism work. In the end they can only make capitalism work on its own terms and not in the interests of workers

Talking about Marxism, Marx was an activist fighting for more democracy, supporting the liberal revolutions, even supporting democratic reforms, he did'nt juts sit and right Das Kapital and wait for some glorious mass and total revolution that will never happen, he fought for more working class power right then and there.

Fighting for political reforms is not quite what is meant by "reformism"which essentially has as its focus the economic problems associated with capitalism. That aside, yes, Marx sided with certains capitalist revolutions in their bid to overthrew pre-capitalist feudal-aristocratic regimes . His rationale for doing so was that it would aid social progress and hasten the emergence of capitalism's own gravedigger the working class, Whatever the merits of this particular argument, 150 years or more after Marx it is long redundant. There is nothing in the least progressive about capitalism at all

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 14:22

that order being one in which the police harass and abuse people without reaction or consequence.

So the reaction is to attack ordinary people, rob and pillage and burn ordinary people out of house and home as well as destroying their livelihoods? Destroying their own fucking communities....

It's an uprising of frustration and anger - riots are unorganized and spontaneous by nature, people might as well criticize a bar fight for not observing standard boxing regulations. You can't have an unjust society with oppression and competition and inequality, i.e. capitalism or feudalism and not also have uprisings and riots of this sort. Moralizing about it is useless and won't do shit about it - if you don't want to see riots, you need to have a different sort of organization of society.

It's not an uprising, it's criminal opportunism that has succeeded in alienating marginalised groups even more- as has been stated by community leaders/figures from those same communities. I wonder how many of those involved had even heard of the original issue of the man who got shot. But even if that were the case, is ransacking shops and burning people out of their houses the answer? No.

What happened in Tunisia was an insurrection/revolution- it had political ends and political scope, it was organised with a specific target in mind and not directed at the people but at an unwanted "dictator"- this is just criminality that does nothing to bring down the "state" or anything other than cause even more woe for ordinary people.

Sorry.... but there's no use trying to make this into something it isn't. Most of these lumpen criminals probably never read a newspaper or could even tell you what the UK government cuts were even about- it's just an excuse to rob and loot with impunity because the laws in Europe cannot really cope with this kind of thing from "minors". As for people here trying to turn this into something it isn't- stop and ask yourself how you would feel if you had been innocent at home and some fucker came and burnt it down and you had to jump out of the window for your life.

RGacky3

10th August 2011, 14:27

I was talking specifically about reformism - the idea of implementing measures through the state within the context of capitalist economic constraints and with the intention of benefitting the workers. This is doomed to failure in the long run. The abbatoir cannot be made to operate in the interests of the cattle to slightly doctor a phrase.

So do not advocate ANY thing other than total socialism, I don't get it, if you go on strike, get a benefit, does that not count because its total socialism? If you struggle for national health care and then get it does that not count?

What you are advocating is not socialism. The idea of inserting a socialist mode of production into capitalism is without foundation. Non profitable industries are industriries that are subsidised by profitable industries via taxation revenue and therefore are reliant upon the latter. Ditto your publicly funded unemployed cooperatives. There's no such as a free lunch under capitalism. When capitalism hits the bumpers and there's an economic downturn m inevitably funding for all sorts of things are cut. The capitalist state cannot risk killing the golden goose that lays the golden eggs. The need for profit has to take priority. You get into government on your "socialist" ticket of introducing "publically accountable non-profit industries that do not compete in the market" and you will soon enough find yourself backtracking on all your promises and inflcitingt austriery measures on the workers. Thats inevitable. Thats what governments of all stripes do - try to make capitalism work. In the end they can only make capitalism work on its own terms and not in the interests of workers

No they are not subsidised by profitable industries, non-profit does not mean it makes surplus value, it means it is not required to make surplus value, meaning it does not need to make a return.

many non profit industries make constant surpluses, such as state oil companies.

I'm not saying that reforms are all, I'm saying that addressing the immediate conserns are most important, building socialism and taking all the victories we can get.

I'm advocating working toward socialism, which includes working toward socialistic reforms within capitalism.

What do you think should have been the reaction? If you were in government what would you advocate?

Fighting for political reforms is not quite what is meant by "reformism"which essentially has as its focus the economic problems associated with capitalism. That aside, yes, Marx sided with certains capitalist revolutions in their bid to overthrew pre-capitalist feudal-aristocratic regimes . His rationale for doing so was that it would aid social progress and hasten the emergence of capitalism's own gravedigger the working class, Whatever the merits of this particular argument, 150 years or more after Marx it is long redundant. There is nothing in the least progressive about capitalism at all

Yeah, so you fight for political and economic reforms, you fight for more democracy and more worker power within capitalism and fight to overthrow cpaitalism.

Honestly I don't understand what you advocate if your not fighting for reforms right now, saying abolition of capitalism is'nt enough, thats just abstraction, concretely what are you fighting for?

Coach Trotsky

10th August 2011, 15:58

manic expression

10th August 2011, 16:02

What happened in Tunisia was an insurrection/revolution- it had political ends and political scope, it was organised with a specific target in mind and not directed at the people but at an unwanted "dictator"- this is just criminality that does nothing to bring down the "state" or anything other than cause even more woe for ordinary people.
Not sure about Tunisia, but in Egypt there was plenty of looting...there was even looting directed at one of the most important collections of Ancient Egyptian art in the world.

Not the same thing, but for some reason everyone is so quick to forget about looting when it proves inconvenient.

DarkPast

10th August 2011, 16:13

Che a chara

10th August 2011, 16:47

These riots should not be exempt from criticism. Some of the behaviour and scenes are shocking but I don't think that many are arguing that this has political or tactical cohesion. What I see is a reactionary explosion of emotion and resentment from an alienated and excluded class of people who are disconnected from a system that has fucked them over and expects them to wretchedly live on their knees. But society has conditioned this. Youths see an apathetic existence and a bleak future due to the anti-worker cuts that detrimentally effect their social productivity and economic needs. Their voices haven't been heard much, up until now. But do we expect the government to listen and learn ? Nope. So the arrangement of leadership should be the next stage. Street level communication and co-ordination with revolutionary leftist groups adding direction and discipline to organise a mass movement of class conscious youth. This is too good an opportunity to be criminalised and overlooked.

Che a chara

10th August 2011, 16:48

Upsurge in mayhem and vadalism in Manchester:

0cbVW_QS2eE

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 17:03

The youth are NOT your slaves, and I hope one day soon it is they who are disciplining the likes of YOU!

Yeah because it's really "revolutionary" beating up elderly asian women with baseball bats....:rolleyes:

This is NOT an insurrection/revolution, it's criminal opportunism.

LegendZ

10th August 2011, 17:04

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 17:10

Makes perfect sense. The RIGHT makes cut's and the people riot because they don't like it...and it's the LEFT'S fault? That's like saying My cousin built my house and then some douche nozzle burned it down so now I'm mad at my cousin.

The right makes cuts because the so-called "left" left the economy in a bad way and a financial crisis hit. However splittling this into a right-left issue is stupid anyway, whoever you vote for the government always wins.

But all of this making excuses doesn't help smashed communities, people who have been assaulted and killed or people who are now homeless.

bcbm

10th August 2011, 18:02

So the reaction is to attack ordinary people, rob and pillage and burn ordinary people out of house and home as well as destroying their livelihoods? Destroying their own fucking communities....

when you build a powderkeg and throw matches at it do you yell at it when it explodes? capitalism has created a futureless hell for an entire generation. this is the result. it will continue and intensify until capitalism ends.

The combustion on the streets of London is an indictment of the state of the country, the tragedy of lost homes a painful indictment of today’s society. And yet these events will continue to be likely whilst the working class and black communities suffer oppression at the hands of global corporations, austerity measures, and the police.

It's not an uprising, it's criminal opportunism that has succeeded in alienating marginalised groups even more- as has been stated by community leaders/figures from those same communities.

Community leaders have been wheeled out to continue the division of communities into the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’, as if their communities are not united in suffering oppression and poverty. We urge them not to desert anyone from their community. The Labour Party has clearly abandoned any pretence of representing the working class we see on the streets. MPs Dianne Abbot and David Lammy premise their condemnation of the unrest on the bizarre opinion that those involved are not “representative of the community” but when whole council estates in Hackney come together to destroy CCTV cameras, and attack the police who routinely brutalise tenants, we know this premise is false. In the last few days we have seen an alienated working class on the streets, young and old, multicultural – and united.

Sorry.... but there's no use trying to make this into something it isn't. Most of these lumpen criminals probably never read a newspaper or could even tell you what the UK government cuts were even about- it's just an excuse to rob and loot with impunity because the laws in Europe cannot really cope with this kind of thing from "minors".

Asked why he was stealing, one boy replies: "Why are you going to miss the opportunity to get free stuff that's worth loads of money?" Pressed on why he was stealing stuff he could afford, he went to blame the abolition of the education maintenance grant: "It's not about that. It's about the government. No kids don't want to go to college no more coz they don't get paid."

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 19:31

when you build a powderkeg and throw matches at it do you yell at it when it explodes? capitalism has created a futureless hell for an entire generation. this is the result. it will continue and intensify until capitalism ends.

Because the people suffering the most, like the Malaysian student who was beaten and robbed by thugs who pretended to help him, or the old asian lady, or the children's hospital (state) were responsible for this? Yeah, your "insurgents" are really attacking the policy makers of the last twenty years aren't they? Doesn't excuse anything. These little shits are stealing stuff, trainers and jeans and playstations etc because they are just as selfish and sociopathically materialistic as the so-called capitalists they hate.

bcbm

10th August 2011, 19:41

Doesn't excuse anything. These little shits are stealing stuff, trainers and jeans and playstations etc because they are just as selfish and sociopathically materialistic as the so-called capitalists they hate.

''I CAME here to get my penny's worth,'' said a man who gave his name as Louis James, 19, showing off what he described as a £119 ($190) designer sweater looted from gentrified Camden Town, London.

Mr James lives in a government-subsidised apartment in north London and receives £76 in jobless benefits every two weeks, though he says he has largely given up looking for work. He has never had a proper job and learnt to read only three years ago. His mother can barely support herself and his stepbrothers and sisters. His father, a heroin addict, is dead.

''No one has ever given me a chance; I am just angry at how the whole system works,'' Mr James said. ''That is the way they want it,'' he said, without specifying exactly who ''they'' were. ''They give me just enough money so that I can eat and watch TV all day. I don't even pay my bills any more.''

http://www.smh.com.au/world/youths-lash-out-to-get-piece-of-the-pie-20110810-1imt8.html#ixzz1UeW6f8EA

you try living in shit while every day the wealthy get wealthier and flaunt it right in front of you (london is has an incredible level of social inequality) while the government ignores you except for the cops who harass you and your friends and family every day. you get the chance, you gonna get your share (http://jacobinmag.com/blog/?p=994)

Nox

10th August 2011, 19:42

manic expression

10th August 2011, 20:03

It's funny how when the riots happened in Egypt, shops got looted and destroyed and the people doing it were seen as heroes.

But when it happens back here in the UK, they're seen as thugs and criminals going on a pointless rampage.
Yep. The same goes for twitter and any form of technology related to the cell phone, I've noticed.

Egyptians using twitter = its t3h march of progress and modern sivilizashun!!!!!!!!!!

Brits using twitter = BUNCH OF BRATS SPOILED RICH ON THEIR ENTITLEMENTZ SEND IN THE ARMY WITH ORDERS TO SHOOT TO KILL!

:rolleyes:

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 20:05

you try living in shit while every day the wealthy get wealthier and flaunt it right in front of you (london is has an incredible level of social inequality) while the government ignores you except for the cops who harass you and your friends and family every day. you get the chance, you gonna get your share (http://jacobinmag.com/blog/?p=994)

Well go out and get a job. A lot of the people who have had their shops destroyed or lost their job because the shop has been burnt down are immigrants/people from disadvantaged backgrounds/communities etc etc etc And apart from that it doesn't excuse violence against ordinary people and their homes.

manic expression

10th August 2011, 20:12

Well go out and get a job. A lot of the people who have had their shops destroyed or lost their job because the shop has been burnt down are immigrants/people from disadvantaged backgrounds/communities etc etc etc And apart from that it doesn't excuse violence against ordinary people and their homes.
Yeah, not that simple. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jan/19/youth-unemployment-heads-towards-1-million) Over 20% unemployment among under-25ers (and I'm sure if you count in underemployment, which can be just as dangerous, it becomes a much bigger percentage)...you can't skip out your door and find unskilled (or skilled) positions. That's why they're out on the streets...their future was stolen from them and used to stuff the pocketbooks of the rich.

Thug Lessons

10th August 2011, 21:39

First they came for the wheelie bins,
and I did not speak up because I had already taken to composting.

Then they came for the corner markets,
and I did not speak up because those are all run by ethnics anyway, aren't they?

Then they came for the indie labels,
and I did not speak up because I was going through a bit of a Steely Dan phase again.

Then when they came for the Middle Class,
There was no one left to speak up for us.

Nox

10th August 2011, 21:40

Well go out and get a job.

That's the whole point, they can't. Public sector employment has been cut ridiculously, there aren't any jobs out there, unemployment is very high, they've got rid of EMA so many can't afford to go to college, university fees have tripled so its almost impossible for poor people to get a good education so they can't get a good job, if any were available that is...

brigadista

10th August 2011, 21:41

Revolution starts with U

10th August 2011, 21:44

The point is not whether the rioters are radicals or oppurtunists. The point is that this the logical outcome of austerity. It presents an opportunity to make our case for economic democracy. You don't have to be on either side to recognize this for what it is; mob reaction to the increased burden placed on them by the political structure.

bricolage

10th August 2011, 22:23

'get a job'

the number of claimants to jobs available is 1:5, in places like Tottenham where this kicked off it is 50 odd people applying for every job. underemployment mentioned above is key too, the public sector has freezes and cuts and of the private sector jobs created last year over nine in ten were on a part time basis and one in three were temporary contracts. at one point the government patted itself on the back claiming there were 40,000 new jobs but all but 8,000 were temporary ones collecting the census. even the olympics which would be expected to bring some work is being staffed by an 'army of volunteers', big society ay? you can't get work and if you can it's shit.

Che a chara

10th August 2011, 22:27

:ninja:

http://i.imgur.com/zczD0.png

ComradeMan

10th August 2011, 23:01

Yeah, not that simple. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jan/19/youth-unemployment-heads-towards-1-million) Over 20% unemployment among under-25ers (and I'm sure if you count in underemployment, which can be just as dangerous, it becomes a much bigger percentage)...you can't skip out your door and find unskilled (or skilled) positions. That's why they're out on the streets...their future was stolen from them and used to stuff the pocketbooks of the rich.

So 80% are employed. These poor underprivileged youths with their blackberries, iPhones and twitter accounts.... yeah, sure.

Look, I am not trying to defend the status quo or an unjust society but at the same time I think it's pathetic to turn opportunistic criminality into some kind of "revolution" or "insurrection" which it isn't.

Perhaps I'm old, but I do notice a "blame" culture developing in Europe in which it's never anyone's fault. Sorry, but shitting in your own backyard is no way to improve things.

The so-called British "left" who brought their country to ruin economically- it was this "left" that sold off the UK gold reserve, it was this "left" that could send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq at a cost of billions and billions and, from experience in Italy, solves the problem by employing "everyone" in the public sector now has the audacity to blame the "right" for this mayhem because of the "cuts". The cuts did not create these ghettos or this level of social degradation...

But whatever the reasons may be, attacking innocent people, vandalism, looting, attacking hospitals (NHS presumably) and so on are not the acts of a progressive uprising....

What will all this achieve in the long term? It will just give carte blanche to the authorities, now with massive public support it seems, to indroduce even more oppressive laws and restrictions and personal freedom. Well done, but err...sorry, mega fail.

manic expression

10th August 2011, 23:32

So 80% are employed.
Correction...80% have some sort of job (including "student"). However, if you talk to anyone who knows their stuff, only getting a part-time job with inconsistent hours is as negative a situation as being unemployed.

These poor underprivileged youths with their blackberries, iPhones and twitter accounts.... yeah, sure.
Poor people find ways to get nice stuff when they can...just like everyone else. Take a trip through some of the most impoverished communities in the US and you'll see satellite TV dishes set up in every decrepit trailer home. Why? Because, shockingly, humans crave diversion, especially when their lives are full of shit.

By the way, twitter isn't exactly a luxury item. The Egyptian protestors were using twitter...are you going to make fun of them and call them spoiled?

Look, I am not trying to defend the status quo or an unjust society but at the same time I think it's pathetic to turn opportunistic criminality into some kind of "revolution" or "insurrection" which it isn't.
Who's calling this a "revolution"? No one should be. "Insurrection" is a real stretch unless it's purely rhetorical. What we're seeing is young workers with no future to speak of saying "FUCK YOU" to a system that never listened to them.

And yeah, some are simply opportunistic criminals. But it's a chaotic situation and you can't use single incidents to paint your view of the whole thing.

Perhaps I'm old, but I do notice a "blame" culture developing in Europe in which it's never anyone's fault. Sorry, but shitting in your own backyard is no way to improve things.
Incidentally, this is the exact mentality of the ruling class... "Oh, it wasn't our fault that over 20% of young people have no job and thus no future! It wasn't the police's fault they murdered a kid after shooting first! It's not our fault that every single non-violent protest is met with brutality, mockery and scorn!"

:rolleyes: It's ridiculous how much the capitalist class wants to pin things on the people out on the streets. They actually want to believe that it's just "random thuggery"...even though you'd have to be a drooling idiot to think that it's a coincidence that it's happening now.

Borrowing from another poster, if a student 60 years in the future were to write an essay about the 2011 Riots in a university history course, putting "random thuggery" as the main cause would rightfully earn a failing grade.

The so-called British "left" who brought their country to ruin economically- it was this "left" that sold off the UK gold reserve, it was this "left" that could send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq at a cost of billions and billions and, from experience in Italy, solves the problem by employing "everyone" in the public sector now has the audacity to blame the "right" for this mayhem because of the "cuts". The cuts did not create these ghettos or this level of social degradation...
That's the problem right there. That "left" is actually right-of-center. More importantly, the whole of capitalist political voices agree that taking from the workers and giving to the rich is the way to go.

But whatever the reasons may be, attacking innocent people, vandalism, looting, attacking hospitals (NHS presumably) and so on are not the acts of a progressive uprising....
Well, vandalism and looting are definitely part of progressive uprisings. If you were living in 1789, would you be scolding the people of Paris for "vandalizing" and "looting" the Bastille? My point exactly.

Anyway, as I mentioned, it's simply misdirection to look at those incidents of attacks on the innocent, etc. and say "well that's all this is"...because it isn't. You're witnessing workers angry at a society that doesn't care about them.

What will all this achieve in the long term? It will just give carte blanche to the authorities, now with massive public support it seems, to indroduce even more oppressive laws and restrictions and personal freedom. Well done, but err...sorry, mega fail.
This, we certainly cannot know. We can say that this could very well end up being a turning point of our time...but we can't know where this leads just yet.

Watch this space.

Tifosi

10th August 2011, 23:48

:ninja:

http://i.imgur.com/zczD0.png

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01968/poodles_1968777c.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppgowbwg41r1qajlo1_500.png

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpo5t3LG3e1r1qajlo1_500.png

More here (http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com)

brigadista

10th August 2011, 23:50

just leaving this here

"What aggravated the riots into a virtual saturnalia was the impression gained by the rioters that they could enjoy a fiesta of crime, looting and rioting in the guise of social protest" - Thatcher

Nox

11th August 2011, 00:03

has the audacity to blame the "right" for this mayhem because of the "cuts".

Yes, and us leftists are rightful to blame the right for the mayhem. They cut totally the wrong things, they must be totally stupid if they thought cutting public spending to this degree wouldn't result in this type of unrest.

Why couldn't they cut the military, state funding to religion, ridiculously large public sector wages, ridiculous bankers bonuses, or tax the rich more...

But no, they go and cut public sector employment, raise VAT, cut healthcare, cut education, cut virtually everything important.

They only even managed to get voted in because none of this was in their manifesto. We weren't warned.

The Conservative Party are a bunch of jokers.

Bronco

11th August 2011, 02:20

Yes, and us leftists are rightful to blame the right for the mayhem. They cut totally the wrong things, they must be totally stupid if they thought cutting public spending to this degree wouldn't result in this type of unrest.

Why couldn't they cut the military, state funding to religion, ridiculously large public sector wages, ridiculous bankers bonuses, or tax the rich more...

But no, they go and cut public sector employment, raise VAT, cut healthcare, cut education, cut virtually everything important.

They only even managed to get voted in because none of this was in their manifesto. We weren't warned.

The Conservative Party are a bunch of jokers.

Not all the blame can be placed on the Conservatives though, not yet anyway, the cuts haven't really even been implemented yet, all the problems that have caused this were already in existence

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 02:34

words

I don't know how a motherfucker can be so dumb but what we are saying is that this riot would not have happened if it was not for the conditions in these neighborhoods (in England in general) right now. What happened afterwards with the looting and the beating people up and all that does not change the fact that there are economic, social, and political roots to this thing.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

11th August 2011, 06:24

Not surprised at all to see the apologist wringing his hands over those "thuggish" rioters, and completely ignoring the social and economic conditions that lead to these events.

Does your tongue ever get tired of being buried that deeply in the ass crack of the ruling class, apologist?

Nox

11th August 2011, 06:32

Not all the blame can be placed on the Conservatives though, not yet anyway, the cuts haven't really even been implemented yet, all the problems that have caused this were already in existence

Yes that is true, but the Conservatives are certainly making it worse :)

o well this is ok I guess

11th August 2011, 06:33

These poor underprivileged youths with their blackberries, iPhones and twitter accounts.... yeah, sure. Uh.
You remember that Fox segment on the poor not existing?

Rusty Shackleford

11th August 2011, 07:10

More here (http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpo5t3LG3e1r1qajlo1_500.png)

link only directs to picture!!! must have more!

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 08:02

Yes.

In the meanwhile:

http://londonrioters.co.uk/upload.php

Wouldn't it just be awful if a bunch of people uploaded fake pictures and entered fake information into this database?

Susurrus

11th August 2011, 08:11

Yes.

In the meanwhile:

http://londonrioters.co.uk/upload.php

Wouldn't it just be awful if a bunch of people uploaded fake pictures and entered fake information into this database?

David Cameron. I personally saw this dangerous criminal in london during the riots.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01967/cameron-riots-400_1967572c.jpg

Here he is about to assault a policewoman:

http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2011/08/10/david-cameron-gets-tough-in-response-to-riots.img.453.302.1313006181393.jpg

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 08:27

I don't know how a motherfucker can be so dumb but what we are saying is that this riot would not have happened if it was not for the conditions in these neighborhoods (in England in general) right now. What happened afterwards with the looting and the beating people up and all that does not change the fact that there are economic, social, and political roots to this thing.

One of the accused looters is a millionaire's daughter... other profiles I have read suggets little do with the conditions.

I don0't know how someone can be so dumb as to jump on the first bandwagon that goes past without looking into things.

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 08:39

One of the accused looters is a millionaire's daughter... other profiles I have read suggets little do with the conditions.

I don0't know how someone can be so dumb as to jump on the first bandwagon that goes past without looking into things.

What you just said has literally nothing to do with what i said, because there would not have been any riot whatsoever if not for the social/economic/political state of things. This isn't me saying this, mind you -- people who live in Tottenham have been saying "uh yeah you shoulda seen this coming".

Zmo8DG1gno4

Like, do you ever leave your house? I know I wouldn't if I seriously thought all it took for a riot like this to start was some bored kids who didn't want to pay for shoes that day.

EDIT: And a millionaire's daughter, you say? So much for them being lumpen.

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 08:54

....

Check this article out about Liverpool

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/11/riots-brian-reade-says-riots-were-sparked-by-a-chance-to-grab-stuff-for-free-115875-23335892/

RGacky3

11th August 2011, 09:00

XV0X0NGhu3w

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 09:04

Check this article out about Liverpool

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/11/riots-brian-reade-says-riots-were-sparked-by-a-chance-to-grab-stuff-for-free-115875-23335892/

Liverpool

would be

fine

if not

for

the social

economic

and political factors

that lead

to the riots

in the first

place

bcbm

11th August 2011, 09:05

Check this article out about Liverpool

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/11/riots-brian-reade-says-riots-were-sparked-by-a-chance-to-grab-stuff-for-free-115875-23335892/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/128884/london-riots-uk-government-ignores-poverty-inequality-focuses-on-violence/

http://globalcomment.com/2011/why-riot-and-not-revolt-protest-and-the-london-riots/

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/09/uk-britain-riot-contrast-idUKTRE7785XQ20110809

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part?intcmp=239

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o

that's just the shit i've been passing on, there's much more. you're clueless and a disgusting moralist to boot. fuck. off.

bcbm

11th August 2011, 09:13

holy shit i just read that article for real and its the biggest piece of moralist bullshit i've ever read of course it acknowledges

It’s been obvious for some time that we are inflicting an *unprecedented poverty of *opportunity and crippling debt on our young people. How can we tell them to have a stake in this country’s future when we can’t promise many an education, job or their own home?
We can’t lecture them about greed when young men in the City are allowed, as a reward for failure, to fill their yachts with booty.

but then quickly backtracks and tries to blame it on not instilling enough 'right and wrong' into the youth. because its wrong to take what you can get when you can, unless you're a rich fuck and then you can steal with impunity. but bring down the fucking hammer if some kid just wants a nice new pair of shoes. god what a bunch of disgusting shit

RGacky3

11th August 2011, 09:16

First of all, this is not moralist, thats not moralist at all, its moralist and rightly so, to point out the FACT that these riots are caused by Cuts and the ruling class dispossesing the masses. That is the correct analysis and the MORALIST thing to do is to fight against those cuts.

bcbm

11th August 2011, 09:23

/rant... prepare yourselves...

i am just honestly amazed at people today condemning this shit and coming out in force to sign petitions and hit the streets and blah blah blah while if you take a fucking look around at the world you can see that since the 1970's (actually much earlier but anyway) the global elite has been on a global scale ransacking the poor and making a mint off it. started in the post colonial third world nations with the imf/wb loans and debt giving money to dicators who they knew were going to pocket that shit then enforcing 'structural readjusment' meaning priviatizion and stealing everything they could from those countries while the assholes who got them into the mess retired to europe and the people suffered. fast forward now its happening in the post-indsutrial nations greece being the obvious example but in eevery country here the rich are making a profit while unemployment increases, nobody dares threaten them with tax incrwases, social services are being ripped apart its just absolutely fucking disgusting and then we see real explosions over this shit, over this fucking unjust corrupt hell our economy has created and people on 'the left' even are trippin ver themselves to condemen the rioters and appeal to some bullshit values that mean absolutely nothing anymore. you're pissed about looting? how about the fucking bailouts how about the fucking imf and wb and the shit your governments have been doing for fucking years in the third world and to the poor in your own countries? people finally say enough is enough and tell the rich and the police ot fuck off and die and oh god its a fucking tragedy. fuck you. fuck off. you have nothing to offer you dont understand the current climate youre just another worthlesss hack and youre not needed anymore wise up or get the fuck out this is how it is now the youth have no future the old have no future nobody has any fucking future except the rich and even them are fucked because theyve turned the planet into a fucking runaway hot house and are killing the seas and so much other shit its just unbelievable that anyone would side with those fucks over the rioters get to the streets organize for the next one organize your own expeditions expropriate everything communize the resources lets get fucking real its us v them this is an opening strike its now or fucking never we're in the shit, we're all fucked we've got nothing to lose and the less we tie ourselves to the bastards in power the better pick a fucking side

i lost track of wherei was going im out:sneaky:

bcbm

11th August 2011, 09:25

wish i could thnak my own post that was a gourgeous rant

La ComÃ©die Noire

11th August 2011, 09:32

"family, private property, religion, order" It's the same shit they appealed to in 48 and it's the same shit they're appealing to now. And it's a short road that leads to fascism.

CHE with an AK

11th August 2011, 09:34

Revolutions often start as Riots ...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05wMdW5ccQamy/610x.jpg
LET IT BURN !

Kotze

11th August 2011, 09:37

In the meanwhile:

http://londonrioters.co.uk/upload.php

Wouldn't it just be awful if a bunch of people uploaded fake pictures and entered fake information into this database?Operation Vanguard Lemonparty :cool:

bcbm

11th August 2011, 09:40

sound slike something those antisec cats hsould be on upload like 80000000000 pictures of cats and squid and destroy the police reousrces

bcbm

11th August 2011, 09:44

Yes.

In the meanwhile:

http://londonrioters.co.uk/upload.php

Wouldn't it just be awful if a bunch of people uploaded fake pictures and entered fake information into this database?

i am drunk and spamming this site from my real ip :-( buts its too fun i love entering false info and snarky message to cops everyone join the fun

Susurrus

11th August 2011, 09:46

Back in the old days, American Colonists rioted and the Brits scoffed at their uncouth behavior. Now the tables have turned. Funny how history works.

o well this is ok I guess

11th August 2011, 09:51

i am drunk and spamming this site from my real ip :-( buts its too fun i love entering false info and snarky message to cops everyone join the fun Upload pictures of Cameron.

bcbm

11th August 2011, 10:03

and bankers and ceos

black magick hustla

11th August 2011, 10:09

i didnt read the 60 pgs of comments or whatever but it seems some folks evaluate riots like this as whether if they are "effective" or not. i think anybody who is thinking honestly about what is happening without overtly romanticizing it knows that this won't lead to a revolution or something like that, and i am almost certain it won't lead to any sort of meaningful gain in the short term. the point of riots like this is not so much their potential to cause gains but that they are part of the history of the class and it is within this events where the class learns how to fight and starts to ask questions about itself in relation to this reality. the riots should be seen in relation to the historical epoch we are living in, and its relation to the other disturbances across europe, asia, and the middle east. some people are arguing "bbbbbut it alienates people" or "bbbut it won't do anything!". no shit. rather than seeing this as the means to a sort of gain it is more useful to see in relation to the class gaining confidence and starting to ask questions, no matter in how rough and basic their forms of struggle are right now.

o well this is ok I guess

11th August 2011, 10:10

Start identifying them as "dirty reds".

Revolution starts with U

11th August 2011, 10:18

Watching the riots go down on the news, etc, I thot the majority of the rioters were white. Looking at this narq (tattle-tale) site, it's almost all black people... One of the "do you know this looter" pics was of two people in masks! Im convinced this site is a farce... If not, I will be much sadder for humanity than I am now.

bcbm

11th August 2011, 10:20

so far everyone on the site has been my buddy 'mark kingsley' from glasgow can you believe it?

o well this is ok I guess

11th August 2011, 10:21

Every time the cop comes up I report him as "da po po".

bcbm

11th August 2011, 10:22

i went with 'fucking swine' thought i'd use the formal name

StalinFanboy

11th August 2011, 10:23

"Revolutionaries are pious folk. The revolution is not a pious event." - Bonanno

This isn't the first time that the Left has completely turned its back on us in favor of defending this disgusting society. Keep up or burn with the rest of em.

o well this is ok I guess

11th August 2011, 10:24

Fuck I'm gonna upload every picture of the cops I can.
We need these violent upstarts identified.

balaclava

11th August 2011, 15:31

I blame the libertarian left; in particular the English libertarian left – why? .

Many of the members of this forum are not English and may not understand how things have changed here and just how frightened the ordinary people are.

I am from Liverpool and I know the place and the people intimately. I am also old and I have also worked abroad and returned to be shocked at just how things have changed. What is happening on the streets today has got NOTHING to do with anyone being oppressed or deprived it’s totally about a change in culture amongst a section of the community to a culture which has no fear of consequences, no respect for any authority and believes that they have the RIGHT to take what they want and do what the hell they like. Yes, they believe it is their right because you have told them that they are oppressed and deprived. One of the looters, when asked why he was doing it, replied “because I can.” I could give you numerous actual day to day examples of intimidation and fear of ordinary people. In some areas of the city feral youths roam the streets each night from dusk intimidating the neighbourhood. Ordinary people (working class or otherwise) are frightened to look them in the eye let alone tackle them. People no longer report crime because they know the police are impotent. Ordinary people will not give evidence against them in court because they fear reprisal. I socialise with a lot of teachers and they tell me this all started with the abolishment of corporal punishment and a change in culture which supported suing teachers for chastising pupils. Some children in some schools who want to learn cannot because the teachers spend all their time on one-to-one with these feral kids colouring in picture books. The police don’t arrest these people because it would ‘cause a riot.’ These youth do not fear arrest because they know that nothing approaching anything looking like punishment will happen to them. They learn at school that authority fears them and that they do what they like with punishment and when they leave school they take that culture with them. Yes they are frustrated and angry but that’s because most testosterone fuelled young men are angry, it’s testosterone and a culture of no consequences not capitalism and communism.

So why do I blame the English libertarian left for all this?

If you read the posts here you will read many justifying the acts of these people. Those same words of justification . . . “you are deprived; you are badly treated; you deserve better; it’s the Government’s fault that you are bored they should provide you with youth clubs and ping pong tables; you should be GIVEN a well paid job doing something interesting for a few hours a week; the police are brutal fascists who should not be allowed to stop your fun,” has come from the Left all day and every day for more than 20 years. You have pushed for the ‘rights’ of the individual at the cost of the rights of the majority. The legal aid budget in the UK costs every man woman and child £30 a year, in Europe the average is £4 – why is that – driven by the Left to allow the ‘deprived’ to sue for their rights. If these thugs have a fight between themselves we pay them compensation from the criminal injuries compensation scheme. If a burglar breaks into my home and I tackle and injure him I get prosecuted for assault. Your (LL) answer is that all the people who have worked and accumulated some wealth should hand it over to this scum because they haven’t got it and should have it because they haven’t got it!!

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 15:45

So why do I blame the English libertarian left for all this?

Because you're an ideologue and a lunatic

If you read the posts here you will read many justifying the acts of these people. Those same words of justification

You need to learn to read, then. Every post I've read has been about "well this is why it happened" and not "THIS IS A GOOD THING LOL"

also income inequality is huge in england so i don't know why you're going off about socialism. probably has to do with the ideologue/lunatic part

I socialise with a lot of teachers and they tell me this all started with the abolishment of corporal punishment

ahahahahhahahahaa

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 15:47

clearly this is because people are too free and not because they are broke and desperate. i mean sure the last time this happened people were broke and desperate but surely this is a coincidence.

balaclava

11th August 2011, 16:08

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 16:12

[FONT=Arial]The Government’s e-petition web site has crashed from the number of people trying to get on-line to sign a petition to take away the benefits of the rioters. That’s after 96,000 signatures in 2 days. The people signing that e-petition they are the ‘working class’

And hella short-sighted, apparently.

Coach Trotsky

11th August 2011, 16:23

"family, private property, religion, order" It's the same shit they appealed to in 48 and it's the same shit they're appealing to now. And it's a short road that leads to fascism.

Yep. Those with nothing to lose should put these system-defending scum "up against the wall, muthafucker!"
If they judge our lives worthless, I say we return that judgement in kind.
If they come to take your life, take theirs first.
Every question of "who rules?" ultimately comes down to "who lives?"
If they want to play the us versus them game, then let us with nothing to lose but our chains conquer them.
If they come to oppress and enslave, treat them like oppressors and slavemasters should be treated!

Tifosi

11th August 2011, 16:41

The Government’s e-petition web site has crashed from the number of people trying to get on-line to sign a petition to take away the benefits of the rioters. That’s after 96,000 signatures in 2 days. The people signing that e-petition they are the ‘working class’ and they are ANGRY at this selfish criminal scum and at the politicians for years of pandering to the left pushing for their civil liberties and human rights.

See here . .
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8d396a2c-c406-11e0-b302-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1UjUODdup

Notingham city council have said they will kick out onto the streets to rot the entire familys of those that were involved in the riots there.

Your a fucking idiot, and your short-sighted nonsense is going to come back to bite you in the arse. The idea that taking away the few things these people have left is going to stop them from rioting in the future is to dumb to comprehend.

RadioRaheem84

11th August 2011, 16:54

All the scum in this thread who oppose the insurrection. What kind of revolutionaries are you? The bourgeoisie will tremble at the might of the proletariat!

They're trembling at chaos and criminality in the streets right now, which they know they can squash.

They really won't be in total fear until those very same "thugs" organize and learn to fight the state in a more positive manner.

The riots represent a reaction to the social order not an answer. When there is organization, then they will truly fear the people.

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 17:07

that's just the shit i've been passing on, there's much more. you're clueless and a disgusting moralist to boot. fuck. off.

Ah, playing the internet hardman- well go and explain the dynamics of all of this to the asian student lying in hospital with his broken jaw after cowards pretended to help him and then robbed him, or to the families of the guys who were killed trying to protect their neighbourhood, or the people who lost their homes and livelihoods- most of them would probably fall into the bracket of "working class" too.

When there is the inevitable swing to the right from the working class, most of whom appear to be appalled and hurt by this, when there are even more repressive laws and when the left becomes even more marginalised and disliked by the working class then you can thank your little "Foot Locker revolutionaries" and shit-for-brained excuses for leftists like you. Now, you fuck off you sanctimonious bandwagon jumping moron. ;)

RadioRaheem84

11th August 2011, 17:11

You fuck off playing the internet hardman and go and explain the dynamics of this to the asian student lying in hospital with his broken jaw, of the families of the guys who were killed or the people who lost their homes and livelihoods- most of them would probably fall into the bracket of "working class"- now, you fuck off you sanctimonious bandwagon jumping moron.

And the total blame goes to the perpetrators of the violence rather than looking at this systemically?

Quit your reactionary bullshit and take a look at the whole picture. The riots, the violence, the looting is all due to the shitty social conditions people are living under and they represent a reaction to the social order in the UK.

These people have no power, that is why they're reacting this way. The people in power who control the jobs, the government, the money, etc. did nothing to stop the growing inequality in those regions.

Again, quit your overly emotional unstable responses when someone gets hurt and learn to think of solutions to a systemic problem.

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 17:18

And the total blame goes to the perpetrators of the violence rather than looking at this systemically?

Factum lex, non sententiam notat.

Quit your reactionary bullshit and take a look at the whole picture. The riots, the violence, the looting is all due to the shitty social conditions people are living under and they represent a reaction to the social order in the UK.

No one is denying that- but a lot of people grow up in poverty and don't beat up old women with baseball bats.

These people have no power, that is why they're reacting this way. The people in power who control the jobs, the government, the money, etc. did nothing to stop the growing inequality in those regions.

Seems like most of them were minors. I wonder if the and then off course year olds running out of stores with bottles of wine and liquor were angry about job cuts. :rolleyes: Of course, we can add the ones who have been named including a seemingly wealthy young girl and others in employment.

Again, quit your overly emotional unstable responses when someone gets hurt and learn to think of solutions to a systemic problem.

Overly emotional? Watching working class communities being destroyed and working class people suffer? Stop playing at being a leftist....

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

11th August 2011, 17:30

Ah, playing the internet hardman-

Fucking idiot, an "internet tough guy" is somebody who physically threatens other people on the internet, not someone who tells moralistic quisling shitstains like you to fuck off.

well go and explain the dynamics of all of this to the asian student lying in hospital with his broken jaw after cowards pretended to help him and then robbed him, or to the families of the guys who were killed trying to protect their neighbourhood, or the people who lost their homes and livelihoods- most of them would probably fall into the bracket of "working class" too.

You're still not fucking getting it, are you? It's pointless getting indignated about the people hurt by these events and blaming the rioters because it will keep on happening until this rotten system is smashed and replaced.

When there is the inevitable swing to the right from the working class, most of whom appear to be appalled and hurt by this, when there are even more repressive laws and when the left becomes even more marginalised and disliked by the working class then you can thank your little "Foot Locker revolutionaries" and shit-for-brained excuses for leftists like you.

So when those horrible rioters have long been put to justice and people are still being fucked over by the system, perhaps even worse than before, maybe enough people will come to realise that they had a point to give it a proper go the next time around.

RGacky3

11th August 2011, 17:46

No one is denying that- but a lot of people grow up in poverty and don't beat up old women with baseball bats.

Seems like most of them were minors. I wonder if the and then off course year olds running out of stores with bottles of wine and liquor were angry about job cuts. http://www.revleft.com/vb/riots-streets-london-t159378/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif Of course, we can add the ones who have been named including a seemingly wealthy young girl and others in employment.

Your taking exceptions, and judging the whole thing on it, most of them are poor, not wealthy young girls, and the vast majority are not hitting people with baseball bats.

Look you can condemn them all you want, and sure, people should'nt hit old ladies with baseball bat.

But when you see a situation like this and THATS what you focus on? Thats just rediculous.

RGacky3

11th August 2011, 17:52

Its like people that point to INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY all the time when looking at people on welfare or extreme poverty, you can't change that, you can only change systemic structures, you can only change institutions.

Look should someone in the hood stay in school and not get involved with Gangs? Absolutely, is just saying that and condemning kids that do it gonna solve anything at all? No, and its counter productive, what we need to focus on is addressing the SYSTEMIC issues and the INSTITUTIONAL issues that drive people to make these decisions and that cause these problems, individual responsibilty is for families and individuals, what we need to focus on is systemic problems.

Its very easy just to point at these kids as holligans, thats what the right wing does, and they do it because they don't want to address these problems, they do it because they want to make the situation seam like a problem of character, that these kids are just hooligans or thugs, thats not the problem, the problem is systemic, the problem is institutional, and us leftists are smarter than to try and make this an individual responsibility problem.

(Btw, for all the talk of individual responsibility, who is it that actually tries to empower kids to make right choices, that chamption neighborhood programs and so on, its almost always leftists).

Decolonize The Left

11th August 2011, 18:07

Look, riots are fucked up things. People get hurt, women get raped, property gets destroyed, good places get torched, bad places go untouched, it's a crazy time. No one is denying this. Riots are not how societies are run, nor are they the future of any community.

Riots are not an event.
Riots are a transformation of a situation.

They are the movement of people in anger and frustration and violence - they are activity. They are usually relatively unfocused because... you can't have a focused riot. If it's focused, it's not a riot.
It's what happens when people feel like nothing else is allowed to happen.
It's what happens when people feel like there is no outlet for this activity, this energy.

So working class buildings are being destroyed, this is true. But you cannot expect everyone to be completely class conscious can you? How naive and arrogant. How passive from your computer to assess the situation from your perspective and critique these individuals who are facing down the police in the mother fucking streets. Yeah - our streets. You know those things you drive down in your suv? Those streets. Well they are property of the people for a moment or two when people take them.

Maybe they aren't motivated by class consiousness.
Maybe they aren't aware of the totality of their actions.
Maybe they make mistakes in their fury and action.
Maybe they don't see the big picture.

Well, they're not fucking saints are they?
They're people.

And good for them. At least in this moment they feel like people again.

- August

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 18:15

How naive and arrogant. How passive from your computer to assess the situation from your perspective and critique these individuals who are facing down the police in the mother fucking streets. Yeah - our streets. You know those things you drive down in your suv? And good for them. At least in this moment they feel like people again.

- August

Well they weren't really facing down the police were they? The British police seem to have had instructions not to really do much at all. I wonder if this had been China, Libya *cough*, what the reaction would have been? :laugh: Still, I suppose a bit of rain was enough to quell the "rebellion".

As for the suv comment, trying to be prolier than thou... from your computer that is? :laugh: Does it make you feel like a person planning to firebomb a hospital for sick children?

People here are really being a bunch of naive stupid fucking pricks about this.

Decolonize The Left

11th August 2011, 18:18

Well they weren't really facing down the police were they? The British police seem to have had instructions not to really do much at all. I wonder if this had been China, Libya *cough*, what the reaction would have been? :laugh: Still, I suppose a bit of rain was enough to quell the "rebellion".

As for the suv comment, trying to be prolier than thou... from your computer that is? :laugh:

No I'm not trying to be prolier than thou you fucking tool, I'm making a point.

What if this had been China? Well..... it isn't.
What if this had been Libya? Well.... it isn't.
What if this had been a future republic on another planet and cyborg robot police officers shot trucks out of their arms to quell protests???!? Well these folks would really be fucked then wouldn't they?
Oh. Wait. It isn't.

So... you have no point?
As I suspected.

- August

AnonymousOne

11th August 2011, 18:22

clearly this is because people are too free and not because they are broke and desperate. i mean sure the last time this happened people were broke and desperate but surely this is a coincidence.

It goes beyond just systemic problems with lack of social services, institutionalized racism, crushing poverty, unemployment, and inability to access higher education. They weren't ready to riot after all of that, they were still okay.

The reason they rioted is because, after all this. The one place these youth could go, the local youth clubs, the one place where they could escape the harsh reality of their life, got closed.

They had nowhere to go, nothing to do, no job, no future, and had a lot of hatred of the cops and shops that continually oppressed them.

gI2fJmr7GPI

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 18:28

People here are really being a bunch of naive stupid fucking pricks about this.

Stop playing at being a leftist....

shit-for-brained excuses for leftists

MEANWHILE

Comrademan to Tottenham youth: Get a job

Anyway, listen kid, how about you read the posts you respond to because uh, like I said before, people are literally saying "this is why it happened, it wasn't just criminality".

bricolage

11th August 2011, 18:28

I think people are overhyping the youth club aspect mainly because of that guardian video, sure it is a part of the general social tapestry that sprung the riots but to say it is the overarching reason is misleading. A fucked up and fragmented society produces a fucked up and fragmented response but it's not just because of youth clubs. In any case half of the rioters weren't even 'youth'.

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 18:31

RGacky3

11th August 2011, 18:47

Btw, a while back there was a pretty damn big protest at scotland yard, no media, no one cared, now look at the attention they are getting.

What happens when no one listens to you for long periods of time, when your shut out and steped on, there is a reaction, and as AugustWest said, yeah it might not be pretty, but guess what, the situation before this was'nt pretty anyway, it was ugly the whole time, but at least people are paying attention.

The LA riots was not about Rodney king, it was decades and decades of being spit on daily, having no say, being shut out and so on.

bricolage

11th August 2011, 18:52

Oh, sure. There's a ton of factors that go into it. It's just pretty interesting how people in the neighborhood saw it coming.
yeah I agree, I've just seen loads of people posting that video and going SEE IT WAS THE YOUTH CLUBS which is a pretty weak analysis on its own.

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 19:19

No I'm not trying to be prolier than thou you fucking tool, I'm making a point..

No, you are being obnoxious and you can't actually answer the points without dealing in the "abstract". It's easy to deal in the abstract when it's not your life's work of a small shop or you flat that have just been burnt down in flames- or someone you know or yourself is in hospital or dead.

What if this had been China? Well..... it isn't.

Tanks would have been driven over them... cop out.

What if this had been Libya? Well.... it isn't.

Forgot, some people here support Ghaddaffi- cop out.

So... you have no point?
As I suspected.

No, you have no point as many of the others here- not one of whom wants to face the street realities of the victims of this shit, who are not the CEO's the Multinationals or the powers that be. Even the fact they are not designating these riots as "riots" is, in my opinion, in order to avoid state responsibility on the insurance pay out- so the insurers will pay and guess what? The premiums will go up and ordinary people will pay for this- in times of crisis too.

Now, I have stated this before but I will say it again for clarity. I am not a supporter of the fucked up status quo of our seemingly ever-increasingly dysfunctional societies however I am not a supporter of stupidity and criminality and I do not condone in the minmum these actions by these youths (as Darcus Howe also did not condone them and he is someone for whom I have a lot of respect) nor do I see them as anything other than opportunism. I do not support the fact that the original issue seems now long forgotten and has been used by criminal elements as an excuse to behave in an unacceptable way. I do not support the destruction of already delicate communities nor the fact that a lot of working class people/immigrants/underprivileged will inevitably be the victims of this. I do not particularly enjoy the fact that the radical left will alienate itself from the majority of the working class by offering up plattitudes and excuses for these actions either and as is being demonstrated, it seems, by the majority of reaction of the British public across the political and racial spectrum.

If poor people were starving and stealing food to survive I could sympathise with them, but fuck you if your highest aspiration in life and from society is a pair of fucking trainers.

bcbm

11th August 2011, 19:44

If poor people were starving and stealing food to survive I could sympathise with them, but fuck you if your highest aspiration in life and from society is a pair of fucking trainers.

how dare the poor demand more than bare subsistence!

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 19:47

how dare the poor demand more than bare subsistence!

The rather well-dressed poor with their Blackberries, cellular phones and twitter accounts..... :laugh:

I suppose it's all relative but I think of the people starving in the camps in Somalia more as being "poor".

manic expression

11th August 2011, 20:05

I suppose it's all relative but I think of the people starving in the camps in Somalia more as being "poor".
People in Somalia own cell phones (http://af.reuters.com/article/investingNews/idAFJOE5A20DB20091103), you know. It's not like modern technology ceases to exist once you cross the Sahara.

The "only starving Africans are poor" trick is an old favorite of those who want to dismiss and ignore the suffering of workers...but in the end it's an argument that has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with cliches.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

11th August 2011, 20:11

No, you are being obnoxious and you can't actually answer the points without dealing in the "abstract".

The social and economic conditions which lead to rioting are anything but "abstract", apologist cretin.

It's easy to deal in the abstract when it's not your life's work of a small shop or you flat that have just been burnt down in flames- or someone you know or yourself is in hospital or dead.

How does dismissing the rioters as opportunistic thugs prevent future events like this? It doesn't, and such talk is indicative of the kind of action that only feeds into the resentment that sparked them in the first place.

Tanks would have been driven over them... cop out.

Forgot, some people here support Ghaddaffi- cop out.

The rulers of Libya and China would no doubt have reacted in a much heavier-handed manner, but so what? The riots didn't happen there.

No, you have no point as many of the others here- not one of whom wants to face the street realities of the victims of this shit, who are not the CEO's the Multinationals or the powers that be. Even the fact they are not designating these riots as "riots" is, in my opinion, in order to avoid state responsibility on the insurance pay out- so the insurers will pay and guess what? The premiums will go up and ordinary people will pay for this- in times of crisis too.

And you're blaming the rioters for that? What about the bloodsucking insurance vampires who make it their business to profit from the misery of others?

Now, I have stated this before but I will say it again for clarity. I am not a supporter of the fucked up status quo of our seemingly ever-increasingly dysfunctional societies however I am not a supporter of stupidity and criminality and I do not condone in the minmum these actions by these youths (as Darcus Howe also did not condone them and he is someone for whom I have a lot of respect) nor do I see them as anything other than opportunism.

But unlike you, Darcus Howe also had the good sense not to join the borgeouis media in their hypocritical condemnation of the looters.

The rather well-dressed poor with their Blackberries, cellular phones and twitter accounts..... :laugh:

I suppose it's all relative but I think of the people starving in the camps in Somalia more as being "poor".

The fact that some people are in deeper shit than others doesn't change the fact that people are in deep shit.

"Be grateful for the scraps you are given peon, at least you aren't as unlucky as those Somalians" ... but who is responsible for both peoples' predicaments?

Che a chara

11th August 2011, 20:24

Poetic justice to see a few tax shirkers get a pasting, some of whom have been the subject of protests and demonstrations in the past year over their tax avoidance.

Boots targeted during rioting in South London (http://www.pjonline.com/news/boots_targeted_during_rioting_in_south_london)

Boots pharmacies appear to have been targeted across South London as a picture began to emerge this morning about the impact the rioting and looting affecting London and other UK cities has had on pharmacy services.

There were official reports that some of the high street pharmacies have been looted and gutted by fire.

How Boots' Swiss move cost UK £100m a year (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/11/boots-switzerland-uk)

UK Uncut Boots Protest - 30/01/2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk9hNzQzIcU)

Two HMV stores looted during London riots (http://www.nme.com/news/various-artists/58513)

Retailer confirms stores in Wood Green and Enfied were targeted, but no staff were hurt

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/pcs_comment/index.cfm/id/ABE72AEF-BA86-4ABA-968E3AA2D1F0F628

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/10/vat-protest-group-targets-avoiders

Other swindlers such as Topshop and Tescos were also 'looted'

Here's hoping that Vodafone also got a touch ;)

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 20:29

The social and economic conditions which lead to rioting are anything but "abstract", apologist cretin.

What is this- stalking me around the forum accusing me of being an apologist. What are the social and economic conditions of every single person involved? Do you know? Have you done the analysis? Were they all from the same area, ethnic group, social background? But we are once again avoiding the ever so slightly inconvenient problem of the far from abstract aftermath and the victims- most of whom from err.... underprivileged and working class communities. Keep trying to be a leftist... :thumbup1:

How does dismissing the rioters as opportunistic thugs prevent future events like this? It doesn't, and such talk is indicative of the kind of action that only feeds into the resentment that sparked them in the first place.

Non sequitur. How does condoning them as some are doing here prevent future events like this?

The rulers of Libya and China would no doubt have reacted in a much heavier-handed manner, but so what? The riots didn't happen there.

The point being is that there are some here who support those regimes in the name of being "leftists". :laugh:

And you're blaming the rioters for that? What about the bloodsucking insurance vampires who make it their business to profit from the misery of others?

So do you not have insurance and if your house were to burn down you would not claim from it? I think not. The point, which again you seem to miss, is that ordinary people will suffer the most.

But unlike you, Darcus Howe also had the good sense not to join the borgeouis media in their hypocritical condemnation of the looters.

Why is it hypocritical? The victims were certainly not responsible for the socio-economic causes that may have led to the background to the riots.

The Daily Mirror is really bourgeois! :laugh: I'd also refer you to a rather cautiously critical, in my opinion, article here:-

Communist Party of Great Britain, 11 August 2011
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004508

The fact that some people are in deeper shit than others doesn't change the fact that people are in deep shit.

Oh fuck off, there is absolutely no comparison. Even within Europe itself there is a gross disparity. Britain has a benefit system and systems of free healthcare, albeit hit by cuts, that other countries have never had.

"Be grateful for the scraps you are given peon, at least you aren't as unlucky as those Somalians" ... but who is responsible for both peoples' predicaments?

More rhetoric but little fact.

balaclava

11th August 2011, 20:36

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 20:42

You speak of the cause of these riots being the social and economic conditions; the gap between rich and poor, the lack of opportunity and oppressive authority.

The economic and social conditions of the poor in America is far worse than the UK. The gap between rich and poor in America is bigger. The social and benefits system in the UK is far more generous than in the USA. Nobody’s rioting in America. And, if those rioters came onto the streets tonight in downtown Chicago how would the be dealt with by the police and judiciary? Maybe that’s the answer?

You're not really helping. As a British person I can understand that you're probably frightened and angry about this. But at the same time crazy ass ideas like evicting people and cutting benefits to "looters" etc is just mass hysteria and I thought that perhaps you would take pride, at least, in the fact that your country does not need to shoot people down in the street.

I have not defended the actions of what I percieve to be criminal opportunists but at the same time I am not going to "vote" for tyranny.

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 20:44

You speak of the cause of these riots being the social and economic conditions; the gap between rich and poor, the lack of opportunity and oppressive authority.

The economic and social conditions of the poor in America is far worse than the UK. The gap between rich and poor in America is bigger. The social and benefits system in the UK is far more generous than in the USA. Nobody’s rioting in America. And, if those rioters came onto the streets tonight in downtown Chicago how would the be dealt with by the police and judiciary? Maybe that’s the answer?

No because deterrence is a myth. Further, the city that experiences the wost as far as riots go is Los Angeles, which, as you might know, is where the LAPD lives.

So, yeah, so much for that.

black magick hustla

11th August 2011, 20:52

The rather well-dressed poor with their Blackberries, cellular phones and twitter accounts..... :laugh:

I suppose it's all relative but I think of the people starving in the camps in Somalia more as being "poor".

blackberries in the first world are actually not that expensive. people buy plans. people can buy used black berries. how dare the ghetto kid for getting some nice shoes instead of looting for a can of beans and pork.

people starving in somalia, you couldn't be more of a sniveling social democrat. yes people starve in somalia, yes some people are born with mental retardation, and some people are blind and lack legs. people deserve more than being poor but fed. people deserve fucking plasma tvs and nice kicks. gtfo with your pathetic christian slave morality

Che a chara

11th August 2011, 20:56

Even the most condemner of the riots has to condone this loot:

Liam Gallagher's Pretty Green clothing store looted as riots spread to Manchester (http://www.nme.com/news/various-artists/58545)
Beady Eye man's fashion boutique targeted by rioters

http://static.nme.com/images/gallery/PrettyGreenManchesterRiotsPA100911.jpg

Liam Gallagher's clothes store, Pretty Green, has been ransacked by looters during tonight's (August 9) riots in Manchester.

The store, which only opened on King Street in December last year, had its windows smashed and stock taken.

The incident was instantly reported on Twitter, with @PoshKatt posting a photo of the vandalised shop together with the caption:

Liam Gallagher's Pretty Green store, King Street… there was a lot of blood in this store.

To add insult to injury, Sky News described the ex-Oasis/current Beady Eye frontman as a “former rock singer”.

:thumbup1: :D

bcbm

11th August 2011, 21:01

The economic and social conditions of the poor in America is far worse than the UK. The gap between rich and poor in America is bigger. The social and benefits system in the UK is far more generous than in the USA. Nobody’s rioting in America.

there have been riots over police violence in several cities over the past few years. it never reached the level of things in london, but the same forces are brewing in a lot of us cities.

And, if those rioters came onto the streets tonight in downtown Chicago how would the be dealt with by the police and judiciary? Maybe that’s the answer?

the us military's plan to deal with london-like riots (http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/618)

Che a chara

11th August 2011, 21:06

Fuck me, lol, Hulk Hogan's got some piledriving words to say:

Hogan said (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/news/a334526/hulk-hogan-hulkamania-should-stop-the-riots.html): "I just heard what's going on in the streets, man, and I thought just maybe Hulkamania should run over there, start dropping legs, start hitting people with big boots and just stop the action.

And... (http://www.mediaite.com/online/this-exists-hulk-hogan-goes-on-bbc-radio-and-promises-to-bodyslam-london-rioters/):

“Y’know, it doesn’t really matter if Hulk Hogan’s over there bodyslamming all the youth like I did Andre the Giant but, at the end of the day, we need to grab these kids, shake them, and say ‘Stop! Regroup! Just look at yourself in the mirror. Is this what you want the mirror image of your life to be? Is this what you want your destiny to be?’ Not it’s time to change directions. Even if the state has to step in and really focus on getting these kids back on track. But, you know what? I will do anything because I love my UK Hulamaniacs.”

:laugh:

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 21:11

“Y’know, it doesn’t really matter if Hulk Hogan’s over there bodyslamming all the youth like I did Andre the Giant but, at the end of the day, we need to grab these kids, shake them, and say ‘Stop! Regroup! Just look at yourself in the mirror. Is this what you want the mirror image of your life to be? Is this what you want your destiny to be?’ Not it’s time to change directions. Even if the state has to step in and really focus on getting these kids back on track. But, you know what? I will do anything because I love my UK Hulamaniacs.”

i feel like i'm a better person from having just read that

balaclava

11th August 2011, 21:12

You're not really helping. As a British person I can understand that you're probably frightened and angry about this. But at the same time crazy ass ideas like evicting people and cutting benefits to "looters" etc is just mass hysteria and I thought that perhaps you would take pride, at least, in the fact that your country does not need to shoot people down in the street.

I have not defended the actions of what I percieve to be criminal opportunists but at the same time I am not going to "vote" for tyranny.

I hear what you say and respect your views but . . . one of these people when asked why he was doing it replied “because I can.” I as an individual I believe that is the primary cause. Hence I pose the question that, notwithstanding that the socio economic and social welfare and benefits gap is far wider in Chicago and Shanghai these this doesn’t happen there. Is it because here they can and there - they cannot i.e. we step aside whilst they loot whereas in America or China they’d be crushed; does this happen because we allow it to happen?

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 21:16

I hear what you say and respect your views but . . . one of these people when asked why he was doing it replied “because I can.” I as an individual I believe that is the primary cause. Hence I pose the question that, notwithstanding that the socio economic and social welfare and benefits gap is far wider in Chicago and Shanghai these this doesn’t happen there. Is it because here they can and there - they cannot i.e. we step aside whilst they loot whereas in America or China they’d be crushed; does this happen because we allow it to happen?

I already told you the worst rioting in America happens in LA where the most notorious police force in the country is. Your analysis ain't shit, son.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

11th August 2011, 21:17

What is this- stalking me around the forum accusing me of being an apologist.

I don't need to stalk you, I can smell the stench of you from miles away.

What are the social and economic conditions of every single person involved? Do you know? Have you done the analysis? Were they all from the same area, ethnic group, social background?

Well waddya know, a map! (http://maptube.org/map.aspx?m=ol&s=bBHFGlAlRcsKCSaXwRjAplwcCnVsClA9&k=http://orca.casa.ucl.ac.uk/~ollie/misc/londonriots_verified_20110809_1514.kml) Those are some pretty fucking deprived areas where those "riot" symbols are clustered.

But we are once again avoiding the ever so slightly inconvenient problem of the far from abstract aftermath and the victims- most of whom from err.... underprivileged and working class communities. Keep trying to be a leftist... :thumbup1:

It's a riot, not a targeted political action, so of course innocent people are going to get hurt. What the fuck else do you expect?

Non sequitur. How does condoning them as some are doing here prevent future events like this?

It's not a non-sequiter, it's a very real issue of so-called "leftists" parroting the rhetoric of the borgeouis media, which is doing it's damndest to downplay the real causes behind the riots.

The point being is that there are some here who support those regimes in the name of being "leftists". :laugh:

So fucking what? AugustWest and I are not among them.

So do you not have insurance and if your house were to burn down you would not claim from it?

If my home burned down it would be the responsibility of the housing association or the council to rehouse me. Sure I'd be pissed off, but if society has gotten to the point where the home of a nobody like myself is burned without provocation, then something is deeply fucking amiss with society as far as I'm concerned.

I think not. The point, which again you seem to miss, is that ordinary people will suffer the most.

That goes for all riots.

Why is it hypocritical? The victims were certainly not responsible for the socio-economic causes that may have led to the background to the riots.

No, but the media were certainly willing to spy on people's voicemail and bribe the cops. Plus where was the outrage when the bankers bilked workers out of billions? Where was the call to deny all expenses to MPs who had abused them?

The Daily Mirror is really bourgeois! :laugh:

Being owned by Piers fucking Morgan, yes it is.

Oh fuck off, there is absolutely no comparison. Even within Europe itself there is a gross disparity. Britain has a benefit system and systems of free healthcare, albeit hit by cuts, that other countries have never had.

This coming from someone who has the gall to accuse others of not being leftists? Just because Somalians are worse off does not excuse the shoddy treatment of workers elsewhere.

You speak of the cause of these riots being the social and economic conditions; the gap between rich and poor, the lack of opportunity and oppressive authority.

The economic and social conditions of the poor in America is far worse than the UK. The gap between rich and poor in America is bigger. The social and benefits system in the UK is far more generous than in the USA. Nobody’s rioting in America.

Yet.

It's long been demonstrated that workers from different countries have different levels of crap they can take lying down.

And, if those rioters came onto the streets tonight in downtown Chicago how would the be dealt with by the police and judiciary? Maybe that’s the answer?

When rioting happens in the US I expect it to be much uglier and nastier than what happened in England. They've got nothing to be proud of there.

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 21:18

blackberries in the first world are actually not that expensive. people buy plans. people can buy used black berries. how dare the ghetto kid for getting some nice shoes instead of looting for a can of beans and pork.

people starving in somalia, you couldn't be more of a sniveling social democrat. yes people starve in somalia, yes some people are born with mental retardation, and some people are blind and lack legs. people deserve more than being poor but fed. people deserve fucking plasma tvs and nice kicks. gtfo with your pathetic christian slave morality

But you can't actually deal with the issues but just to resort to ad hominems, strawmen and name-calling. Well done- another reason why the left fails. Did you bother to read the article by the CPGB by the way?

People deserve plasma tvs and nice kicks (sneakers?)- it's just that kind of materialistic, banal shitbag mentality that lets the capitalists spit in your face every time.... and every time you fall for it. People ought to be angry about kids not having decent school books, aspirations, having their talents developed etc- but no, they deserve a plasma tv and a pair of trainers... the mundane trivial shit of the modern world. Well done!
:thumbup1:

Revolution starts with U

11th August 2011, 21:21

Personally, for good or bad, I think the more property that gets destroyed, the less hands-off people will be about the political situation in the world right now. It's not about condemning or supporting the rioters. It's about pointing out to people that this is the natural outcome of the capitalist system. It breeds, fosters, and maintains its own social dissidence.
Comradman: NFL football players are pretty wealthy, and still striked because ownership was, in their view, getting far too big a piece of the pie. Do you support, or not?

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 21:23

But you can't actually deal with the issues but just to resort to ad hominems, strawmen and name-calling. Well done- another reason why the left fails. Did you bother to read the article by the CPGB by the way?

Point out the name-calling and strawman please.

And why the fuck would anyone read what the CPGB had to say?

People deserve plasma tvs and nice kicks (sneakers?)- it's just that kind of materialistic, banal shitbag mentality that lets the capitalists spit in your face every time.... and every time you fall for it. People ought to be angry about kids not having decent school books, aspirations, having their talents developed etc- but no, they deserve a plasma tv and a pair of trainers... the mundane trivial shit of the modern world. Well done!
:thumbup1:

Why don't workers deserve TVs and kicks? The working class made them, didn't they? Why can't workers deserve all of that?

Che a chara

11th August 2011, 21:27

Why don't workers deserve TVs and kicks? The working class made them, didn't they? Why can't workers deserve all of that?

Hells fucking yeah. :thumbup:

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 21:29

I hear what you say and respect your views but . . . one of these people when asked why he was doing it replied “because I can.”

you know a lot of people also said it was to "show the rich" or "show the cops that we can do what we want" and things like that, right?

People say a lot of thing, boyo.

ComradeMan

11th August 2011, 21:30

Why don't workers deserve TVs and kicks? The working class made them, didn't they? Why can't workers deserve all of that?

A man was shot dead and this becomes about "workers" (seems like a lot of those underage kids are workers now) deserving sweatshop produced products.

You fail on this one big time.

black magick hustla

11th August 2011, 21:31

But you can't actually deal with the issues but just to resort to ad hominems, strawmen and name-calling. Well done- another reason why the left fails. Did you bother to read the article by the CPGB by the way?

i dont care about the cpgb

People deserve plasma tvs and nice kicks (sneakers?)- it's just that kind of materialistic, banal shitbag mentality that lets the capitalists spit in your face every time.... and every time you fall for it. People ought to be angry about kids not having decent school books, aspirations, having their talents developed etc- but no, they deserve a plasma tv and a pair of trainers... the mundane trivial shit of the modern world. Well done!
:thumbup1:

"our demands are humble - we only want the earth" john connoly

the working class made everything in the world. they made the world in the image of their bosses. they should be able to fucking burn the world if they want, or seize it. they deserve everything. good education, books, videogames, beer, etcetera. we all want to live like aristocrats not slaves. long live the aristocratic impulse of all the low lives and hoodlums of the world

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 21:32

A man was shot dead and this becomes about "workers" (seems like a lot of those underage kids are workers now) deserving sweatshop produced products.

You fail on this one big time.

This is unrelated as far as I'm concerned. I'm asking about why you don't think people deserve baller shoes and TVs. I'm just wondering why you don't think a working person would tell you to fuck off for chatising them about their "materialism".

black magick hustla

11th August 2011, 21:35

A man was shot dead and this becomes about "workers" (seems like a lot of those underage kids are workers now) deserving sweatshop produced products.

You fail on this one big time.

god not everyone in the riots is underage. why dont you raise your nose and call them lumpen scum while you are at it

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 21:35

god not everyone in the riots is underage. why dont you raise your nose and call them lumpen scum while you are at it

He did that in the beginning of the thread actually.

Decolonize The Left

11th August 2011, 22:30

If I didn't know better, I'd say we were being trolled...

- August

Rafiq

11th August 2011, 22:31

balaclava

11th August 2011, 22:39

If I didn't know better, I'd say we were being trolled...

- August

Uh groan . . . . every time anyone puts up a question that you don't like their a troll - pathetic

#FF0000

11th August 2011, 22:39

Uh groan . . . . every time anyone puts up a question that you don't like their a troll - pathetic

not you, dweeb.

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 00:29

On one hand I'm kind of proud to see the British people standing up, whether or not they realise it they are responding to Britains huge shift to the right under Cameron, the tories and their 'big society'; On the other looting shops in working class areas (lets face it that only affects local residents, and the lowest level of employees there) and setting fire to peoples property will not solve anything. I'm not advocatinjg any sort of property laws but they are a critical reality of working class life under capitalism. People have been made homeless ffs, others attacked (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14497763) and badly injured. People who compare this to the original race riots in the UK are very wrong, there are unquestionably racial elements to this, the pigs stop and search young black people routinely without reason, and there are still many black people dying in custody in suspicious circumstances, but this is a different situation. This has been intenitonally orchestrated by gangs, on the back of a very legitimate protest, but unlike the initial protest which was peaceful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_8m6JQ7zA)it has escalated to involve indiscriminate violence and most prominently looting. This is not a path to a fair and equal society

La ComÃ©die Noire

12th August 2011, 00:42

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/11/ukriots.accused/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Interesting cnn article talks about the respectable lives of the rioters, it seems a postman, a life guard, and a charity worker all joined in to get themselves some loot. Just goes to show you the communal impulse isn't limited to some outside group of chav barbarians.

What does it say about a society when even the "respectable" don't adhere to it's laws?

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 09:39

...

I more or less agree with your points and perhaps with your experience of life in your area of the UK you are more streetwise about the realities. I do think it's "politically lazy" to blame this on the Conservative-LibDem government, it's not like "New Labour" did much for the working classes really is it?

I also think it's frustrating that the so-called radical left weren't out on the streets trying to stop this turning into a mass sack and pillage, trying to speak to the youth and trying to help the residents who took the brunt of the violence? Where were they? Were they there perhaps and it has not been reported? What I am reading in the papers is that across the political/class/ethnic spectrum there seems to be public fury at this- not only towards the looters but also towards the police who many seem to feel were ineffective. What happends? The hard-right go then use this an excuse to go out and "defend" the streets!!! That's just great isn't it?

I also noticed that the family of the man who got shot by police themselves seem to have condemned what happened afterwards.

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 09:48

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 09:51

You don't get this, NO ONE is condoning what is happening,

What we are doing is looking at this realistically and using intelligent analysis to point out the causes and what the solutions are.

Blaiming the radical left for not doing enough is easy enough and its great to stand on your high horse and shit on the ONLY people out their doing their best to try and make the world a better place for not doing enough, but anyone that has tried to organize a workplace, take part in community organizing and so on, knows its not so easy.

Judging by some of the posts in this thread and in others on the forum there seems to be tacit condoning of what happened and also abnegation of blame which in itself is also tantamount to condoning the actions of some through absolvence of responsibility.

Not doing anything was more the accusation.

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 09:57

Like I said before, its pointless to blame the rioters, just like its pointless to blame gangbangers, it feels good but it does'nt address anything, its easy to say "personal responsiblity" but that doesn't change a damn thing.

There are systemic problems and institutional problems that we need to address and that needs to be the focus.

Not doing Anything is an unfair blame and frankly kind of insulting to socialists that do their best.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 10:08

Like I said before, its pointless to blame the rioters, just like its pointless to blame gangbangers, it feels good but it does'nt address anything, its easy to say "personal responsiblity" but that doesn't change a damn thing..

That is not a defense that will stand up. You could also point out how this basic mitigation is also and admission of guilt ipso facto.

There are systemic problems and institutional problems that we need to address and that needs to be the focus.

I agree, and setting houses on fire, attacking ordinary people and looting liquor stores is not the way to address them.

Not doing Anything is an unfair blame and frankly kind of insulting to socialists that do their best.

Where were they and what did they do?

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 10:25

That is not a defense that will stand up. You could also point out how this basic mitigation is also and admission of guilt ipso facto.

this is cause and effect of social dynamics ... Guilty of what? Acting in a non productive way? Yeah, and what, whats your point? Do you want us all to sit around and condemn people that have been shit on for decades for acting in a somewhat irrational way? WHY? Is now the time to be wagging your finger? if you kick a dog over and over again for years then the dog starts biting people, you gonna blame the dog?

Whether or not we should condemn these kids SHOULD'NT EVEN BE THE QUESTION, its a stupid and pointless discussion, OF COARSE its unproductive, but its a reaction, a predictible reaction to causes which have much to do with public policy.

I agree, and setting houses on fire, attacking ordinary people and looting liquor stores is not the way to address them.

No shit, whats your point? This is'nt a tactic, this is a reaction to decades of bad policy, I'm sure it feels good to sit on your moral high horse and wag your finger at people having a human reaction of frustration, but you know what? Its not gonna help shit, its not gonna solve shit, other than adding to the idea that its just a bunch of hooligans and diminishing their actual and legitimate concerns.

Where were they and what did they do?

Ask a British leftist, and btw, who the hell are you to criticize the ONLY people that are trying to make things right, its like shitting on doctors without borders for not curing everyone, why don't you get out there and try and make a difference rather than just shitting on the people that are.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 10:44

...

Oh look a great wall of plattitudes. But then some here would argue that "kicks" and "plasma tvs" are the answer, let's keep the plebs happy with bread and circuses. :rolleyes:

You keep talking about cause and effect, I have not denied that there are complex social and demographic factors at play but what other here seem to be ignoring is that this "effect" i.e. the riots and their aftermath will also have effects and I fear they will not be progressive. This isn't some kind of "Robin Hood" stealing from the rich to give to the poor- this is the product of a rotten society from top-to-bottom and from bottom-to-top, an almost "Debordesque dystopia", in girum imus nocte, ecce, et consumimur igni comes to mind, having said that causes are not excuses- fighting injustice with injustice, for it is injust to be attacked in the street, robbed or have your home and/or community burnt down, is not a way forward.

Welcome to the violent version of the Society of the Spectacle, 2011.

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 10:48

But then some here would argue that "kicks" and "plasma tvs" are the answer, let's keep the plebs happy with bread and circuses. http://www.revleft.com/vb/riots-streets-london-t159378/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

Your not getting it are you, NOBODY has said rioting is the answer, enough with the strawman.

I'm saying you have a rediculous and pointless focus.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 10:56

Your not getting it are you, NOBODY has said rioting is the answer, enough with the strawman.

....And good for them. At least in this moment they feel like people again.

- August

:laugh:

I'm saying you have a rediculous and pointless focus.

You, amongst others have no focus, other than to offer up countless plattitudes exhonerating those who have committed acts of deadly violence against ordinary people from any kind of criticism or responsibility.

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 11:04

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 11:14

how the hell are you going to criticize people who are having an irrational and sudden response to decades of being excluded and craped on.

Whats the point of that?

My focus is on the institutoinal cuases of these riots and the systemic problems that bring them about.

Well next you should be defending rightwing skinheads from working class communities, afterall they are also the product of social dynamics and being disaffected, feeling alienated and marginalised. :rolleyes:

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 11:19

I'm not defending anyone, and yeah, but racism comes from an ideology which needs to be fought.

Rioting is not an ideology, its a spontaneous reaction to political and economic exclusion and oppression.

Are you reading any of my posts? It seams like your not because you keep brining up strawmen.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th August 2011, 11:21

You, amongst others have no focus, other than to offer up countless plattitudes exhonerating those who have committed acts of deadly violence against ordinary people from any kind of criticism or responsibility.

Expressing sympathy for the rioters is not the same as condoning their actions, you apologist troll.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 11:27

Rioting is not an ideology, its a spontaneous reaction to political and economic exclusion and oppression.

It's also a good way for a general free-for-all in which criminal elements can take advantage of a situation to serve their own ends.

People must take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions, which in this case seems to be alienating the general public in the UK and giving (as usual) the powers that be a perfect excuse to intrude even more and restrict upon individual liberties. Even if it's a "spontaneous reaction to political and economic exclusion and oppression" doesn't mean that it is a good reaction or anything progressive. If the net results of this are counter-productive and regressive then it's pretty much a dismal failure, and a dismal failure that has also led to a lot of suffering and death.

Expressing sympathy for the rioters is not the same as condoning their actions, you apologist troll.

What about expressing sympathy for the victims? Shit for brains. Hmm... I wonder if you should ask the immigrants who spent their lives building up a small-business, or the woman who jumped from a burning building or the other people who were burnt out of their houses what their sympathy is?

Arlekino

12th August 2011, 11:39

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 11:48

The society is poisoned already tv chef celebrities like Gordon Ramsey's attitude towards young children who wish to be chefs constants swearing on them, or Alan Sugars Traineeships dog eat dog teachings and now we are accusing kids teenagers for wearing sort of unsuitable clothes or riding bicycle . where do we going in future if majority of society happy declare war against our children punishing for stealing few commodities and I am surprising we still ok when MPs can get away far more harsh crimes.

That is also a very good point, hence my comment about society being rotten from top-to-bottom and from bottom-to-top. I am not going to defend politicians either, all they will do is try to apportion blame to someone else or capitalise on events for propaganda purposes- in either direction.

On the main board and here I have been reading through the threads on this subject and it strikes me how some (presumably) British members are far more tempered in their "enthusiasm", Vanguard1917, Sam_B and El Granma as well as Viet Minh.

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 11:49

What about expressing sympathy for the victims? Shit for brains. Hmm... I wonder if you should ask the immigrants who spent their lives building up a small-business, or the woman who jumped from a burning building or the other people who were burnt out of their houses what their sympathy is?

Why were people not suprised by what happened?

Even if it's a "spontaneous reaction to political and economic exclusion and oppression" doesn't mean that it is a good reaction or anything progressive. If the net results of this are counter-productive and regressive then it's pretty much a dismal failure, and a dismal failure that has also led to a lot of suffering and death.

Again, not disagreeing, but instead of trying to hold the reaction responsible, why not hold the cause responsible, and try and change something that we CAN change.

You can't go and make everyone saints, you can change institutions and systemic problems.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th August 2011, 11:50

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 11:53

Why were people not suprised by what happened?

Not being surprised by what happens still does not exhonerate people who perpetrated hateful acts of violence.

Again, not disagreeing, but instead of trying to hold the reaction responsible, why not hold the cause responsible, and try and change something that we CAN change.

Reification. What were those involved actually trying to change? What is their critique of the socio-economic causes of all of this. I haven't seen one shred of evidence that the majority of those involved in such things as a fucking plan to burn down a hospital for sick children were motivated by some altruistic sense of community. The way some are colouring this you'd think it was the Paris Commune- it isn't.

You can't go and make everyone saints, you can change institutions and systemic problems.

Which is exactly what these people have done, but probably for the worse.
:thumbup1:

You damn well know that goes without saying, apologist. What you don't seem to realise is that sympathy for the victims should not be used as some kind of pretext to dismiss the wider implications, like what the bourgeois media do.

Ah- it goes without saying, quid tacet consentire videtur. You and your sociopathic cronies are doing all the apologism and conveniently ignoring the as-of-now wider implications.

RGacky3

12th August 2011, 12:01

Look a small amount of hte rioters did horrible things, yes, we all agree, its terrible, and they should'nt do it.

WHATS YOUR POINT?

Reification. What were those involved actually trying to change? What is their critique of the socio-economic causes of all of this. I haven't seen one shred of evidence that the majority of those involved in such things as a fucking plan to burn down a hospital for sick children were motivated by some altruistic sense of community. The way some are colouring this you'd think it was the Paris Commune- it isn't.

No one is arguing that, whats your point?

Which is exactly what these people have done, but probably for the worse.
:thumbup1:

Then why not, instead of sitting on your high horse trying to blame the victims for not reacting rationally, focus on the underlying cuases.

Old Man Diogenes

12th August 2011, 12:03

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 12:16

Look a small amount of hte rioters did horrible things, yes, we all agree, its terrible, and they should'nt do it.

A small amount? It didn't look like a small amount on practically every news broadcast and in newspapers from across the political spectrum worldwide.

Then why not, instead of sitting on your high horse trying to blame the victims for not reacting rationally, focus on the underlying cuases.

Well, as Noxion would say "that goes without saying" ;)- but a quick read through the numerous threads at RevLeft and you see that there are those who seem to be indirectly cheering about this, even the use of words like "uprising" and "revolution" etc.

Let's take a hypothetical situation, you are an immigrant worker who is now homeless and have lost your badly-paid shift job at a store that was burnt down, you feel anger and rage at those who did it so do you now have the "right" to go and burn their houses down?

I think not somehow.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th August 2011, 12:38

I haven't seen one shred of evidence that the majority of those involved in such things as a fucking plan to burn down a hospital for sick children were motivated by some altruistic sense of community.

What fucking plan to burn down a hospital for sick children? What the fuck are you talking about?

Thirsty Crow

12th August 2011, 12:39

but a quick read through the numerous threads at RevLeft and you see that there are those who seem to be indirectly cheering about this, even the use of words like "uprising" and "revolution" etc.

Surely you could provide quotes which would prove this allegation of yours. If not, it seems that a quick read is not enough to form even a half-baked opinion, which is exactly what you are doing.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 13:07

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th August 2011, 13:17

There are of course going to be conflicting reports in this contest now of "who is going to lie the most". But there were reports a few days ago of fears for the hospital in Birmingham. Now, if these are just media sensationalism then it proves what I think about the media in general.....

Oh, so now you're using unconfirmed reports from the bourgeois media as an excuse to condemn the rioters? You make me fucking sick, quisling.

but on the other hand... you still haven't answered any of the other points which is about what I would expect from some here.

What points? You've done nothing but point out that innocent people have suffered, which none of us have denied. Will observers react negatively to these events? Doubtless some will, and that's hardly surprising considering that the riots weren't the product of a slick PR department.

I challenge the pseudo-leftists here cheering on these events to explain how they are in any way progressive or helpful to working class communities or the aim to build a better society.

What is there to explain? We didn't plan the riots, so we can't be taken to task for the backlash.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 13:49

Oh, so now you're using unconfirmed reports from the bourgeois media as an excuse to condemn the rioters? You make me fucking sick, quisling.

Because you have confirmed reports and access to intelligence, you know each and every person involved and their motives and you are not relying on published media and reports I presume. :rolleyes: Funny that your oh-so-bad insult of quisling was first coinded by the "bourgeois media", and you can fuck off calling people fascist collaborationists too.

What is there to explain? We didn't plan the riots, so we can't be taken to task for the backlash.

Self-righteous little prick, conveniently washing your hands, standing on the sidelines and cheering yet quick to say "It wasn't me, it's not my fault". You will be taken to task by the ensuing backlash- something which doesn't appear to get through to you.

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 13:51

I more or less agree with your points and perhaps with your experience of life in your area of the UK you are more streetwise about the realities. I do think it's "politically lazy" to blame this on the Conservative-LibDem government, it's not like "New Labour" did much for the working classes really is it?

No but people were fairly content under new Labour, they did the bare minimum to keep the proles happy with their healthcare and unemployment benefits etc during the worst of the recession. Then Cameron came in, fresh out of Oxford via Eton, never having worked a fucking day in his life, telling people who couldn't find work (in the highest unemployment days since the 70's I believe) they were lazy and workshy scroungers, with their £45 per week and luxury council estate apartments. Meanwhile him and his cronies were claiming public money for moats round their second homes.. So his philosophy was essentially to cut the purse strings, although funnily enough that didn't include his millionaire banker friends, whose offshore account interests could probably have paid our national defecit. No he cut back on essential services such as a refuge for women who were victims of domestic violence. Thats a fundamental human right, as a rich country its our duty to provide protection to such victims, the police are fairly inneffective at that sort of thing. Don't underestimate the tories' part in this, they are the ones in control and they are to blame for the situation. The rioters are basically politically illiterate, they probably haven't heard of Marx, but they do know they can't find even basic work, they pay ridiculous amounts of money for the 'privilige' of living in south London (for example) and they are routinely stopped by the police for nothing. They have gone about this in completely the wrong way, but logically, sociologically they have done exactly what you'd expect someone who was desperate to do. The same thing happened in the French and Russian revolutions. But do not underestimate the tories' part in all this, if you're not familiar with UK politics watch just one episode of jeremy kyle, david cameron is the exact same tory boy spoilt brat self-righteous sanctimonious condescending arrogant ingorant hypocrotical asshole. Yeah I'm mad, not at you though I see where you're coming from but bear in mind most of the media in the UK or reporting on the UK is blatantly tory or at least right wing.

I also think it's frustrating that the so-called radical left weren't out on the streets trying to stop this turning into a mass sack and pillage, trying to speak to the youth and trying to help the residents who took the brunt of the violence? Where were they? Were they there perhaps and it has not been reported? What I am reading in the papers is that across the political/class/ethnic spectrum there seems to be public fury at this- not only towards the looters but also towards the police who many seem to feel were ineffective. What happends? The hard-right go then use this an excuse to go out and "defend" the streets!!! That's just great isn't it?

I also noticed that the family of the man who got shot by police themselves seem to have condemned what happened afterwards.

What the left need to be doing is educating these people, its what we should have been doing all along. Instead of sitting here debating Trotsky versus Stalin (yeah I'm guilty of all that too) we should be talking to people in terms they understand (again I don't mean to sound condescending, I'm coming from the perspective of not understanding 70-80% of the content on here, and not having time to read up on it all). Okay its too late by the time the people are on the streets, I don't think they will accept the black bloc into their ranks. But somehow we need to speak to these people, you can be damn sure the fascists are trying to take advantage of the situation (http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/video-nick-griffin-addresses-nation) (strangely they seem to think this is the race war they have been masturbating about, in reality its the class war that they've been dreading, albeit in a corrupted form).

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 14:01

No but people were fairly content under new Labour, they did the bare minimum to keep the proles happy with their healthcare and unemployment benefits etc during the worst of the recession.

Except the ones in Afghanistan or Iraq that is. Their economic policies were disastrous.

Agree with the rest of your point of view, just don't see fundamentally how New Labour are anything to cheer for either.

What the left need to be doing is educating these people, its what we should have been doing all along. Instead of sitting here debating Trotsky versus Stalin (yeah I'm guilty of all that too) we should be talking to people in terms they understand (again I don't mean to sound condescending, I'm coming from the perspective of not understanding 70-80% of the content on here, and not having time to read up on it all). Okay its too late by the time the people are on the streets, I don't think they will accept the black bloc into their ranks. But somehow we need to speak to these people, you can be damn sure the fascists are trying to take advantage of the situation (http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/video-nick-griffin-addresses-nation) (strangely they seem to think this is the race war they have been masturbating about, in reality its the class war that they've been dreading, albeit in a corrupted form).

I agree and that is exactly what I think has been lacking and as I predicted the hard-right have taken advantage of the situation as you say.

Where were the voices of the radical left appealing for calm and trying to stop young people wrecking their lives and others? No, just boring and inane analysis and accusation in what are basically today fringe commentaries that I would bet are not even known to the vast majority of those involved.:(

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 14:17

Except the ones in Afghanistan or Iraq that is. Their economic policies were disastrous.

Agree with the rest of your point of view, just don't see fundamentally how New Labour are anything to cheer for either.

Absolutely not, in fact if the riots become more political and focused we could even thank the tories for their contribution to the revolution one day.

I agree and that is exactly what I think has been lacking and as I predicted the hard-right have taken advantage of the situation as you say.

Where were the voices of the radical left appealing for calm and trying to stop young people wrecking their lives and others? No, just boring and inane analysis and accusation in what are basically today fringe commentaries that I would bet are not even known to the vast majority of those involved.:(

We can't expect the rioters to stop, but I'd like to have seen leftists redirect their anger towards the people who really are responisble, rather than just small (http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=jMkJZS3dY-E) businesses (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-2KXKcupgk). Ie banks, retail chains etc. At the very least they will have more money in the tills. And the protests should take place at the doorstep of the bourgeouis, I don't know London very well but I'm thinking Westminster and Chelsea etc. Make no mistake the result of this will be much harsher clampdown by the police, but what they fail to realise is that that only makes the rioters more angry. And if they lose their homes they then have nothing much else to lose.

What I'd really love to see (of course it won't happen) is Gaddaffi sending in troops to support the rioters :lol:

DinodudeEpic

12th August 2011, 14:23

What I'd really love to see (of course it won't happen) is Gaddaffi sending in troops to support the rioters :lol:

Do I have a feeling that some in this forum is hero worshiping a old and creepy dictator who kills all dissent and has an all women guard. (Nothing wrong with women guards, but ALL-women.....strange, sounds like Gaddafi has odd fetishes.)

Anyways, the riots are kinda senseless, but then again, it is a riot. Maybe if that energy could be directed into revolution, peaceful or not, then we can actually make the labour party at least act actually social democratic.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th August 2011, 14:33

Because you have confirmed reports and access to intelligence,

No, I have access to confirmed news reports as well as actual photographs and video footage, just like you.

you know each and every person involved and their motives

Neither do you, but that hasn't stopped you from judging.

and you are not relying on published media and reports I presume. :rolleyes: Funny that your oh-so-bad insult of quisling was first coinded by the "bourgeois media", and you can fuck off calling people fascist collaborationists too.

If the shoe fits, wear it, quisling. Unless of course, you'd like to come clean and admit that you're a troll, but that seems unlikely.

Self-righteous little prick, conveniently washing your hands, standing on the sidelines and cheering yet quick to say "It wasn't me, it's not my fault". You will be taken to task by the ensuing backlash- something which doesn't appear to get through to you.

I wash my hands of nothing. I have not been mismanaging things for the past 20-odd years or more.

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 14:42

Do I have a feeling that some in this forum is hero worshiping a old and creepy dictator who kills all dissent and has an all women guard. (Nothing wrong with women guards, but ALL-women.....strange, sounds like Gaddafi has odd fetishes.)

No I'm no fan of his, in fact I support the rioters in Libya also. At least I support the general principle, but some of their conduct, like rioters everywhere, has just been senseless and misdirected violence and destruction. Anyway thats all I'm saying, I apologise in advance if this turns into yet another Libya shitfest. :(

Anyways, the riots are kinda senseless, but then again, it is a riot. Maybe if that energy could be directed into revolution, peaceful or not, then we can actually make the labour party at least act actually social democratic.

Agreed. Just to clarify to some on here democratic socialist is NOT the same thing as social democrat. We really do need a new name!

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 14:46

No I'm no fan of his, in fact I support the rioters in Libya also. At least I support the general principle, but some of their conduct, like rioters everywhere, has just been senseless and misdirected violence and destruction. Anyway thats all I'm saying, I apologise in advance if this turns into yet another Libya shitfest. :( Agreed. Just to clarify to some on here democratic socialist is NOT the same thing as social democrat. We really do need a new name!

Don't worry, I saw the irony in your statement too- backed up by a report of a comment about all of this by Ghaddaffi earlier this week. Of course there are some here who support Ghaddaffi against the rebels... but you're right this should not turn into a Libya thread.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 14:49

No, I have access to confirmed news reports as well as actual photographs and video footage, just like you..

Confirmed by whom?

Neither do you, but that hasn't stopped you from judging.

But I was also basing my opinions on the actual photographs and video footage, just like you...[/QUOTE]

If the shoe fits, wear it, quisling. Unless of course, you'd like to come clean and admit that you're a troll, but that seems unlikely.

There's a nice loaded question if ever I saw one. ;)

I wash my hands of nothing. I have not been mismanaging things for the past 20-odd years or more.

Mismanaging what? Only twenty years? A capitalist finance driven society. Is there a better way to manage it? Call yourself an anarchist. :laugh:

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 14:52

Don't worry, I saw the irony in your statement too- backed up by a report of a comment about all of this by Ghaddaffi earlier this week. Of course there are some here who support Ghaddaffi against the rebels... but you're right this should not turn into a Libya thread.

I remembered your comment a while back in that thread, others have mentioned it too, its easy to support revolutionary movements from afar when you don't have to wonder if they'll hurt you or your family, even accidentally.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th August 2011, 14:58

Confirmed by whom?

Why didn't you ask that question when you read of this alleged "plan" to burn down a children's hospital?

But I was also basing my opinions on the actual photographs and video footage, just like you...

No you are not. What about this report you mentioned which, I can't help but notice, you have failed to even provide a link for?

Mismanaging what? Only twenty years? A capitalist finance driven society. Is there a better way to manage it? Call yourself an anarchist. :laugh:

You're either a complete fucking imbecile with no reading comprehension whatsoever, or you're a fucking troll. What part of "or more" did you fail to understand, you supparating carbuncle?

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 15:09

Quit insulting each other its like hearing my parents fight as a kid. :crying: Except they weren't as imaginative! :D

At the moment its nothing to be excited about, even taken to its logical conclusion what will be the outcome, a slightly more liberal slightly more progressive government? Even that isn't certain, the rioters (if they're anything like the average teenagers in Glasgow anyway) are probably more influenced by Snoop Dogg and eminem than Marx or Lenin. Maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong but its naive to label any antisocial or even anti-authority activity as progressive without evidence.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 15:13

Why didn't you ask that question when you read of this alleged "plan" to burn down a children's hospital?

Because it does go without saying that the reports that are published change frequently, especially in the heat of the moment.

Why didn't you politely point out in a comradely spirit that the report may have been erroneous and point to a news-source or critique of it. I have been reading as many different online British papers and journals as I can but at the end of the day all of them are susceptible to bias and misinformation. But then you won't do that wil you? Self-righteous, Mr Perfect Revolutionary etc etc etc :laugh:

Your only answer to difference of opinion and disagreement is to become increasingly more antagonistic and abusive which in my opinion shows what an immature little <insert expletive here> you are. You only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear, talk about confirmational bias.

Quit insulting each other its like hearing my parents fight as a kid. :crying: Except they weren't as imaginative! :D

:D

At the moment its nothing to be excited about, even taken to its logical conclusion what will be the outcome, a slightly more liberal slightly more progressive government? Even that isn't certain, the rioters (if they're anything like the average teenagers in Glasgow anyway) are probably more influenced by Snoop Dogg and eminem than Marx or Lenin. Maybe (hopefully) I'm wrong but its naive to label any antisocial or even anti-authority activity as progressive without evidence.

Exactly my sentiments and exactly why, for the left's sake, I don't like this instant cheering for a non-existent revolution that some are participating in.

DinodudeEpic

12th August 2011, 15:38

No I'm no fan of his, in fact I support the rioters in Libya also. At least I support the general principle, but some of their conduct, like rioters everywhere, has just been senseless and misdirected violence and destruction. Anyway thats all I'm saying, I apologise in advance if this turns into yet another Libya shitfest. :(

Sorry for assuming that you supported Gaddafi, you have an apology from me.

It would be funny, since someone who would stop rioters at home would support foreign rioters. It also would clearly show Gaddafi's hypocrisy.

Back to topic.....

The liberal democrats would go crazy on this, yet the New Labour probably won't unless it's to get election points. Which is odd, how can the Liberal Democrats be closer to us then the Labour Party? Well, that's the magic of neo-liberalism.

I meant the social networking....sorry for the confusion.

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 15:51

Exactly my sentiments and exactly why for the left's sake I don't like this instant cheering for a non-existent revolution that some are participating in.

Its encouraging to know the people are capable of fighting back against authority - it could even be that this movement if you like could be steered in a more affirmative direction than robbing independent shopkeepers and mugging immigrants. But these people are not the victims of capitalism, they are not the uppermost elite either but they have the same disregard for human beings and disproportionate value of commercial goods.
EDIT: I won't rewrite that but of course these people are victims of capitalism, what I meant was that they don't do anything to help the working class in fact judging by the last week alone they rob and attack them.

That first night of rioting may have been flared up because of the anger and confusion surrounding Duggan's death but it was soon hijacked by members of the new gangs who place the acquisition of wealth above all else, hence the preoccupation with flat-screen TVs. It's all about the money.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23976732-when-i-grew-up-in-tottenham-we-stole-sweets-now-its-revenge-shootings.do

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 15:56

IBut these people are not the victims of capitalism, they are not the uppermost elite either but they have the same disregard for human beings and disproportionate value of commercial goods.

Hence my comments about a dystopian Society of the Spectacle.

I found a rather damning article in the Daily Telegraph of all places...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

Coach Trotsky

12th August 2011, 17:16

The society is poisoned already tv chef celebrities like Gordon Ramsey's attitude towards young children who wish to be chefs constants swearing on them, or Alan Sugars Traineeships dog eat dog teachings and now we are accusing kids teenagers for wearing sort of unsuitable clothes or riding bicycle . where do we going in future if majority of society happy declare war against our children punishing for stealing few commodities and I am surprising we still ok when MPs can get away far more harsh crimes.

Bourgeois mass media is the contemporary replacement playing the old role once belonging to the "Holy Church". They are the modern-day witch-hunters, the modern-day superstition hustlers, the modern-day clergy dispensing judgments that the ruling class and its state are overall 'moral' why anyone who rebels against it or defies it in any way is "criminal", and of course they play the preachers when pacifying the populace with modern-day versions of Psalms. It's not enough to simply get rid of your TV. You must take down the whole of the bourgeois mass media---either seize or destroy it. Take it down as if it was the most powerful branch of the enemy's regime.

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 17:52

Bourgeois mass media is the contemporary replacement playing the old role once belonging to the "Holy Church". They are the modern-day witch-hunters, the modern-day superstition hustlers, the modern-day clergy dispensing judgments that the ruling class and its state are overall 'moral' why anyone who rebels against it or defies it in any way is "criminal", and of course they play the preachers when pacifying the populace with modern-day versions of Psalms. It's not enough to simply get rid of your TV. You must take down the whole of the bourgeois mass media---either seize or destroy it. Take it down as if it was the most powerful branch of the enemy's regime.

Unfortunately a free press is the only saving grace of many supposedly democratic countries.

ComradeMan

12th August 2011, 18:22

Bourgeois mass media is the contemporary replacement playing the old role once belonging to the "Holy Church". They are the modern-day witch-hunters, the modern-day superstition hustlers, the modern-day clergy dispensing judgments that the ruling class and its state are overall 'moral' why anyone who rebels against it or defies it in any way is "criminal", and of course they play the preachers when pacifying the populace with modern-day versions of Psalms. It's not enough to simply get rid of your TV. You must take down the whole of the bourgeois mass media---either seize or destroy it. Take it down as if it was the most powerful branch of the enemy's regime.

What makes you think the powers-that-already-be wouldn't agree with you? ;) Anyway, there is quite an attack on the "top" of society by the Daily Telegraph, which I presume most people would consider "bourgeois". The press has its good points and its bad points, but I'd rather put up with the bad points than not have it all.

Viet Minh

12th August 2011, 18:55

Hence my comments about a dystopian Society of the Spectacle.

I found a rather damning article in the Daily Telegraph of all places...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

What makes you think the powers-that-already-be wouldn't agree with you? ;) Anyway, there is quite an attack on the "top" of society by the Daily Telegraph, which I presume most people would consider "bourgeois". The press has its good points and its bad points, but I'd rather put up with the bad points than not have it all.

The telegraph is very pro-Tory, and very conservative generally, they have been talking about the 'good old days' since forever, maybe they should just enjoy these days and think how shit life will be in the future. :lol: But that article is very interesting, the writer has done well to point out the double standards of our politicians.

Even more notoriously, he [David Cameron] awarded a senior Downing Street job to the former News of the World editor Andy Coulson, even though he knew at the time that Coulson had resigned after criminal acts were committed under his editorship [the phone hacking scandal]. The Prime Minister excused his wretched judgment by proclaiming that “everybody deserves a second chance”. It was very telling yesterday that he did not talk of second chances as he pledged exemplary punishment for the rioters and looters.
I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but when a person who has been proven to be involved in phone hacking becomes 'communications director' for the ruling party, questions need to be asked, and 'everyone deserves a second chance' does not cut it. And thats not to mention the police involvement either.. However thats all conveniently forgotten about now, as the outraged public demand more police powers and Government powers to shut off communications.

Coach Trotsky

12th August 2011, 19:15

What makes you think the powers-that-already-be wouldn't agree with you? ;) Anyway, there is quite an attack on the "top" of society by the Daily Telegraph, which I presume most people would consider "bourgeois". The press has its good points and its bad points, but I'd rather put up with the bad points than not have it all.

That's just it: the ruling class couldn't function without some form of holy church propaganda role being perform by some institution or another, in this case the mostly "secular" mass media plays the role. Daily Telegraph and the rest of the bourgeois media are modern evangelistic Church-like institutions, preaching bourgeois ideology/morality and defense of this system overall, just like state religions do.

ComradeMan

13th August 2011, 10:50

The telegraph is very pro-Tory, and very conservative generally, they have been talking about the 'good old days' since forever, maybe they should just enjoy these days and think how shit life will be in the future. :lol: But that article is very interesting, the writer has done well to point out the double standards of our politicians. .

Well, like I said I was surprised to find such an article in that paper- but there you go.

bcbm

13th August 2011, 10:55

what happened in london? just an adjustment of the riot index (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/what-happened-in-london-just-an-adjustment-of-the-riot-index/article2128490/)

CynicalIdealist

13th August 2011, 10:58

ComradeMan

13th August 2011, 11:19

What are you a fucking third-worldist? Shut the fuck up.

Is that the height of your argument? I don't like what you are saying so "shut the fuck up". :rolleyes:

Inasmuch as the established status quo tends to present its self-justification with a kind of socio-economic argumentum ad crumenam, the argumentum ad lazarumis also a fallacy of argumentation.

This is nothing new, I refer you to De Bello Catilinario et Jugurthino X-XI Caius Sallustii Crispi (Sallust) English version here http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7990/pg7990.html

RGacky3

13th August 2011, 18:52

bricolage

13th August 2011, 19:02

"You can't create a monster, and then whine when he stomps on a few buildings."
-- Lisa Simpson

Viet Minh

13th August 2011, 20:09

Comrademan, these kids are taking what they can get away with, this is how capitalism works, you don't hold bankers morally responsible for what they do, do you? No they are just reacting to the system, this is poor people reacting to the system when they don't have jobs.

Actually I believe he holds both accountable for their actions. The article he posted strongly suggests that the problem exists at both ends, ie the ruling elite (from the Prime Minister down) to the rioters, most of whom are from the most impoverished districts of London. yes such actions are inevitable in the face of unemployment, poverty, disenfranchisement etc, but what comrademan was protesting (and I apologise if I have misinterpreted his intentions here) was not in general the act of protesting, even clashing with the police (mostly in self defence from what I gather) but in particular the random violence against working class residents and their properties etc. I would go further and condemn the violence against small shopkeepers, such as the asian man in the video I posted earlier, who works hard for little money and (without wishing to stereotype people) possibly sends money to his family abroad in poorer countries as most small business owners in the UK do.

Tommy4ever

13th August 2011, 20:43

"You can't create a monster, and then whine when he stomps on a few buildings."
-- Lisa Simpson

Totally using this line in the next debate I get into about this. :D

CynicalIdealist

14th August 2011, 00:30

Is that the height of your argument? I don't like what you are saying so "shut the fuck up". :rolleyes:

Inasmuch as the established status quo tends to present its self-justification with a kind of socio-economic argumentum ad crumenam, the argumentum ad lazarumis also a fallacy of argumentation.

This is nothing new, I refer you to De Bello Catilinario et Jugurthino X-XI Caius Sallustii Crispi (Sallust) English version here http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7990/pg7990.html

Being pretentious will get you very far on revleft.

Decolonize The Left

14th August 2011, 00:37

"You can't create a monster, and then whine when he stomps on a few buildings."
-- Lisa Simpson

You can if you refuse to acknowledge that you created the monster, which is, of course, what is happening and will happen. It is fundamentally impossible for the ruling class to admit responsibility for the wide-spread impoverishment and exploitation of the working class. If they do this they admit guilt and capitalism loses all of its moral ground.

So instead they will blame the rioters for looting and random individualized acts of ignorance and violence. These will then be used to focus the attention on the acts of the rioters rather than the causes for the riot, and the system will crack down hard on those people in the streets as they will have maintained the moral high ground through the whole thing.

- August

RGacky3

14th August 2011, 12:09

I would go further and condemn the violence against small shopkeepers, such as the asian man in the video I posted earlier, who works hard for little money and (without wishing to stereotype people) possibly sends money to his family abroad in poorer countries as most small business owners in the UK do.

But the difference is, the riot is not a planned act, its not systematic its not institutional, its a spontaneous reaction.

balaclava

14th August 2011, 13:37

It seems to me that some here can find a reason to exonerate from blame anyone committing any criminal act on the basis of it’s not there fault; it’s the fault of authority / the system that creates the conditions which cause these people to do what they did / do.

Is it not possible that in some cases, some people don’t want to study and don’t want to work but want all the stuff and will steal to get it simply because they are bad people? Is it not possible that some parents don’t care what their children are doing and are disinclined to teach them right from wrong or provide any structure or discipline in their lives? Could it be possible that if you gave some people every opportunity and provided everything they needed to develop and progress they would still choose not to study and not to work and to steal what they want?

Could it be that the reason they choose not to work and to steal what they want is because the Left keep telling them that it’s not their fault that the do these things?

I’ve watched them being interviewed on the TV over the past few days and they churn out all that diatribe, “we haven’t got a job,” “there’s nothing for us to do” i.e. it is the fault of the state for not providing them with entertainment and interesting and lucrative employment. If they had spent their years at school studying and getting themselves some qualifications they could get more the minimum wage jobs but they didn’t so the only jobs available is manual work for minimum wage and they won’t take those jobs.

Is it a fault of the state that they didn’t study and get good results or a fault of the Left for creating classrooms conditions where one boy is allowed (his human and civil rights) to disrupt the classroom all day and everyday because he cannot be punished? Could it be possible that some of those kids wanted to study and get good results and a good job but were not allowed to study because the class was held to ransom by one or two lunatics who could not be excluded because the Left had pushed for their ‘human rights’?

So who is to blame; the Government for providing free education or the Left for preventing the ‘good’ kids from benefiting from that education?

And remember if you don't like the messenger you can always negative rep me!!!

brigadista

14th August 2011, 13:50

balaclava stop watching the tv and looking to it for information .

i challenge anyone to either bring kids up on the weekly benefit level,or when both [or one if a single parent] are chasing low paid employmnt and working long hours when you can get a job.

Poverty is not a joke and its effects are a serious thing. The blame should be laid where it belongs on the capitalist system and its agents that deprive working class people of any future .

some people here should get off their moral high horse and stop taking on the values of our oppressors

Jazzratt

14th August 2011, 17:31

Is it a fault of the state that they didn’t study and get good results or a fault of the Left for creating classrooms conditions where one boy is allowed (his human and civil rights) to disrupt the classroom all day and everyday because he cannot be punished? Could it be possible that some of those kids wanted to study and get good results and a good job but were not allowed to study because the class was held to ransom by one or two lunatics who could not be excluded because the Left had pushed for their ‘human rights’? This, right here, is an example of someone knowing absolutely fuck all. You clearly have never actually been in a classroom in a professional capacity nor managed to inflict your odious company on anyone who has. If you had you would be embarassed at writing this cobblers.

I mean, yeah the rest of your post was total bollocks too but I found that particular slice of ignorance particularly irritating.

Oh also:

I’ve watched them being interviewed on the TV over the past few days and they churn out all that diatribe, “we haven’t got a job,” “there’s nothing for us to do” i.e. it is the fault of the state for not providing them with entertainment and interesting and lucrative employment. If they had spent their years at school studying and getting themselves some qualifications they could get more the minimum wage jobs but they didn’t so the only jobs available is manual work for minimum wage and they won’t take those jobs. A few points about the bolded section:

There is not, as you and some other gobshites seem to believe, a limitless provision of minimum wage manual labour/cleaning/"lowly" work out there. So even with everyone applying for them not everyone's going to be able to get them.
Because there is a competition for these jobs, especially because capitalism is set up in such a way as to ensure there will never be a surfeit of desperate and undereducated people to fill them, employers can be - and are - quite choosy about who they hire. That means that while there are more experienced, stronger or more motivated people out looking for work then younger people will be shit out of luck when applying for a job.
Very few jobs, even in construction and labouring, will take you without any sort of qualification. I mean if you're demanding that the government provide funding for CSCS certification, C&G courses and apprenticeship skills then more power to you but I suspect that you're actually just being a bellend talking about yet another area of work about which you know fuck all.

Plagueround

14th August 2011, 18:02

This thread reeks of the first world "not in my backyard" attitude. It's easy to support far off distant countries and romanticize their struggle as if you're watching the Rebel Alliance and some Ewoks knock around some stormtroopers. However, when the very same thing occurs in a first world country, the very same romanticists are clinging to the locks on their doors, frightened and sneering at "spoiled children". Now I'm not a good gambler (and neither is my ex who dropped our rent money into a slot machine, but that's another story entirely), but I am willing to bet there is probably some people out there in the crowd just wanting to fuck shit up. There always is, in every crowd. Ours was named Vince (but again, another story, another time). But to sit with your head in the sand and pretend that the majority of people out there have no aims and just want to steal and have idea what's actually going on, to paint these people as dupes or apolitical morons, is dishonest, vile, and very revealing of one's true colors. P.S. The fact that people are able to get a hold of things like iPhones and Blackberries doesn't mean they are struggling or poor. Sometimes the poor in the first world get a few crumbs. At this point, try being a struggling student or jobseeker without these things.

You want the uprisings to occur far away, you want violent and sudden social change, so long as it doesn't disrupt you sitting comfortably in the first world. There may come a time where you won't have a choice.

We from the occupied fourth world know better and we send our regards. Hattak momah kvt illih pullachi.

balaclava

14th August 2011, 18:05

This, right here, is an example of someone knowing absolutely fuck all. You clearly have never actually been in a classroom in a professional capacity nor managed to inflict your odious company on anyone who has. If you had you would be embarassed at writing this cobblers.

You are correct, I have not been in a classroom for a long time but I spend a couple of days every week in the company of teachers who are in the classroom and it is clear that some schools in some areas are as I have depicted them. It is a fact that for a teacher or a school to exclude a disruptive child they have to produce a lot of evidence proving that he is out of control, he is then put into a class with 2 to 3 teachers for every pupil who spend their day trying to get him to colour in books and there is constant pressure for the schools to take these lunatics back into general population. In short, the policy is to keep to disruptive amongst the ordinary kids in the hope that some sense will rub off on them. All this is a great cost to the good kids who want to learn and this policy change occurred over time driven by the Left. That’s all fact.

How did it used to be before the Left pushed for the ‘nanny state’?

Disruptive kids were caned; if they continued to be disruptive they were expelled. The result was that some fell into line and some fell by the wayside but the good kids (the majority) weren’t disadvantaged for the actions of a few idiots and the few idiots that fell by the wayside learned that there would always be consequences for their actions.

brigadista

14th August 2011, 18:40

You are correct, I have not been in a classroom for a long time but I spend a couple of days every week in the company of teachers who are in the classroom and it is clear that some schools in some areas are as I have depicted them. It is a fact that for a teacher or a school to exclude a disruptive child they have to produce a lot of evidence proving that he is out of control, he is then put into a class with 2 to 3 teachers for every pupil who spend their day trying to get him to colour in books and there is constant pressure for the schools to take these lunatics back into general population. In short, the policy is to keep to disruptive amongst the ordinary kids in the hope that some sense will rub off on them. All this is a great cost to the good kids who want to learn and this policy change occurred over time driven by the Left. That’s all fact.

How did it used to be before the Left pushed for the ‘nanny state’?

Disruptive kids were caned; if they continued to be disruptive they were expelled. The result was that some fell into line and some fell by the wayside but the good kids (the majority) weren’t disadvantaged for the actions of a few idiots and the few idiots that fell by the wayside learned that there would always be consequences for their actions.

Bs Bs And More BS . I dont usually rely on anecdotal info but

THe school I attended was a religious school which used beatings. This did absolutely nothing to enforce discipline just fostered a schoolyard pecking order of violence . and shut up any creative thought or righteous justified dissent

In addition it was the black and poor kids that got most of the beatings.

You were certainly made to "know your place"

the real reason schools can't acccomodate kids with problems is because they are under funded and under resourced.

All the experienced teachers of any worth have either been made redundant or are burnt out and have left .. failing system ..

Balaclava dont believe the hype...

Again Balaclava i am giving you the benefit of the doubt and to be fair to you the sort of posts you re making on here are the sort we are seeing in the general media but to be honest you haven't got a clue if you believe all this -

bricolage

14th August 2011, 19:04

but I am willing to bet there is probably some people out there in the crowd just wanting to fuck shit up.
most definitely, but then the problem with any kind of analyses of 'The Riots' (capital t, capital r) is that it is being painted as a completely homogenous event. either it was complete criminality, or it was completely revolutionary or it was completely something else and so forth. are we really to believe that looting was the same as mugging was the same as fighting cops was the same as arson? are we to believe that everyone taking part did so to the same level for the same aims and for the same reasons? are we even to believe that what happened in hackney was the same as what happened in croydon and the same as what happened in tottenham? maybe, maybe we could accept that there was no single 'The Riots' (capital t, capital r), but rather a series of often disparate and fragmented events, generally spurred on by each other but that are being grouped in which not just each other but those that would have happened even without 'The Riots' (capital t, capital r) and those that just happened to take place in the same time frame. the complete binary views being taken seem just to fit the events into a pre-existing assumption of how people act and how things will happen as opposed to actually looking at what happened and why.

brigadista

14th August 2011, 19:14

most definitely, but then the problem with any kind of analyses of 'The Riots' (capital t, capital r) is that it is being painted as a completely homogenous event. either it was complete criminality, or it was completely revolutionary or it was completely something else and so forth. are we really to believe that looting was the same as mugging was the same as fighting cops was the same as arson? are we to believe that everyone taking part did so to the same level for the same aims and for the same reasons? are we even to believe that what happened in hackney was the same as what happened in croydon and the same as what happened in tottenham? maybe, maybe we could accept that there was no single 'The Riots' (capital t, capital r), but rather a series of often disparate and fragmented events, generally spurred on by each other but that are being grouped in which not just each other but those that would have happened even without 'The Riots' (capital t, capital r) and those that just happened to take place in the same time frame. the complete binary views being taken seem just to fit the events into a pre-existing assumption of how people act and how things will happen as opposed to actually looking at what happened and why.

you could ask the same questions about the student protests

Jazzratt

14th August 2011, 19:31

You are correct, I have not been in a classroom for a long time but I spend a couple of days every week in the company of teachers who are in the classroom and it is clear that some schools in some areas are as I have depicted them. It is a fact that for a teacher or a school to exclude a disruptive child they have to produce a lot of evidence proving that he is out of control, he is then put into a class with 2 to 3 teachers for every pupil who spend their day trying to get him to colour in books and there is constant pressure for the schools to take these lunatics back into general population. In short, the policy is to keep to disruptive amongst the ordinary kids in the hope that some sense will rub off on them. All this is a great cost to the good kids who want to learn and this policy change occurred over time driven by the Left. That’s all fact. I just had to look up "fact" to see if "baseless conjecture and counter-reality assertions made by an intellectually subnormal dickhead" had become one of the meanings while I wasn't looking. Seems not so I'm going to have to call you out there for using a word you don't actually understand, you monumental fuckwit. It's actually impossible to argue with you because everything you say has oonly the barest of relationships to reality; I mean, yeah it's fair enough that you don't know the discipline system in British schools but the fact you've decided to make one up (apparently created by "the Left") kind of makes it diffuclt to take you seriously.

How did it used to be before the Left pushed for the ‘nanny state’?

Disruptive kids were caned; if they continued to be disruptive they were expelled. The result was that some fell into line and some fell by the wayside but the good kids (the majority) weren’t disadvantaged for the actions of a few idiots and the few idiots that fell by the wayside learned that there would always be consequences for their actions. That's a pretty rosy-eyed view of savage barbarity. I mean, shit, if you get a chubby thinking about people beating the shit out of children that's your problem but you don't have to tell us all.

Viet Minh

14th August 2011, 22:08

But the difference is, the riot is not a planned act, its not systematic its not institutional, its a spontaneous reaction.

Comforting words for the families of the three young men who were killed in Birmingham I'm sure.

This thread reeks of the first world "not in my backyard" attitude. It's easy to support far off distant countries and romanticize their struggle as if you're watching the Rebel Alliance and some Ewoks knock around some stormtroopers. However, when the very same thing occurs in a first world country, the very same romanticists are clinging to the locks on their doors, frightened and sneering at "spoiled children". Now I'm not a good gambler (and neither is my ex who dropped our rent money into a slot machine, but that's another story entirely), but I am willing to bet there is probably some people out there in the crowd just wanting to fuck shit up. There always is, in every crowd. Ours was named Vince (but again, another story, another time). But to sit with your head in the sand and pretend that the majority of people out there have no aims and just want to steal and have idea what's actually going on, to paint these people as dupes or apolitical morons, is dishonest, vile, and very revealing of one's true colors. P.S. The fact that people are able to get a hold of things like iPhones and Blackberries doesn't mean they are struggling or poor. Sometimes the poor in the first world get a few crumbs. At this point, try being a struggling student or jobseeker without these things.

You want the uprisings to occur far away, you want violent and sudden social change, so long as it doesn't disrupt you sitting comfortably in the first world. There may come a time where you won't have a choice.

We from the occupied fourth world know better and we send our regards. Hattak momah kvt illih pullachi.

The romanticisation is coming from both sides, including those who are hailing some muggers and murderers as socialist revolutionaries. What happened here is a legitimate protest to police brutality and worsening social conditions of the poor, but on the back of that came some unnacceptable behaviour from some pretty nasty characters.

The problem here is people here jump to radical conclusions, ie in Libya (I wish I could quote #FF on this because he was spot on, but I can't find the thread) half of revleft were hailing the rebels as leftist martyrs and the heralds of a new era of social equality, while the other half had Gaddaffi down as a modern day Marx, benevolent to the point of Godliness and a lone valiant voice against tyranny. In this case, initial riots aside, a bunch of opportunist gang members go on a crime spree and they are honoured as being our revolutonary saviours.

You are correct, I have not been in a classroom for a long time but I spend a couple of days every week in the company of teachers who are in the classroom and it is clear that some schools in some areas are as I have depicted them. It is a fact that for a teacher or a school to exclude a disruptive child they have to produce a lot of evidence proving that he is out of control, he is then put into a class with 2 to 3 teachers for every pupil who spend their day trying to get him to colour in books and there is constant pressure for the schools to take these lunatics back into general population. In short, the policy is to keep to disruptive amongst the ordinary kids in the hope that some sense will rub off on them. All this is a great cost to the good kids who want to learn and this policy change occurred over time driven by the Left. That’s all fact.

How did it used to be before the Left pushed for the ‘nanny state’?

Disruptive kids were caned; if they continued to be disruptive they were expelled. The result was that some fell into line and some fell by the wayside but the good kids (the majority) weren’t disadvantaged for the actions of a few idiots and the few idiots that fell by the wayside learned that there would always be consequences for their actions.

This wouldn't happen if we brought back the cane! :rolleyes: gtfo and take your daily mail hatred of some mythical liberal pan leftist conspiracy with you.

you could ask the same questions about the student protests

What muggings and looting of small business took place then? What murders? I hadn't heard of any but yeah we should be asking those questions as well. On a wider scale the left should also question the rebels in Libya who murdered innocent black people on the assumption they worked for Gaddafi.

#FF0000

14th August 2011, 22:16

brigadista

14th August 2011, 22:20

Viet Minh

firstly im no Libyan rebel supporter

secondly the situation in Birmingham comes in the wake of historical cross community tension which has a complicated history

thirdly there was a diverse range of people demonstrating during the student protests and difficulties within those protests

Viet Minh

14th August 2011, 23:01

ahaha man balaclava if you told anyone in the united states that kids in schools should be physically hit as punishment they would look at you like you're out of your goddamn mind.

is this whole "kids should be beaten" thing common in england?

Yeah its quite a usual line taken by the same people who call for military service, ie people who are past that age and it won't effect. Its a long running joke that the supporters of corporal punishment usually say 'it didn't do me any harm' and its usually very clear it did.

Viet Minh

firstly im no Libyan rebel supporter

So you live in the 'fourth world' and don't support Libyan protesters, but do support Western protests? Thats fair enough but is it not hypocritical to then call people who do the opposite romanticists? What makes the Libyan protesters (who were initially peaceful but started to riot after they were shot at from military helicopters) less legit than London protesters? I'm not trying to be a dick here I just genuinely don't get where you're coming from..

secondly the situation in Birmingham comes in the wake of historical cross community tension which has a complicated history

Agreed. I'm not condemning the protests/ riots in any way as a whole, I'm questioning some specific incidents that took place within them.

thirdly there was a diverse range of people demonstrating during the student protests and difficulties within those protests

Okay but thats my point, a protest or a riot can be absolutely legitmate, but when they are mugging people and vandalising buildings in poor areas do you agree that is counter-productive?

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

14th August 2011, 23:12

ahaha man balaclava if you told anyone in the united states that kids in schools should be physically hit as punishment they would look at you like you're out of your goddamn mind.

is this whole "kids should be beaten" thing common in england?

There's a certain type that think we've gone all soft and that problems can be fixed with a bit of state-sponsored murder or assault. The sort of troglodyte that can be found buying the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, The Sun, etc. Populist law-and-order types who hark back to a golden age that never was. Basically prototypical fascists.

Don't certain Christians in America like to quote "spare the rod, spoil the child"?

Os Cangaceiros

14th August 2011, 23:21

Most of those folks think the rod should be best utilized in the home. Hence the popularity of homeschooling amoungst evangelical Christians. :)

Os Cangaceiros

14th August 2011, 23:23

But yeah, the physical abuse of children in England (and the USA) used to be atrocious. I've read Roald Dahl's "Boy", so I know, lol.

But seriously, they used to beat kids till they bled. Anyone who endorses going back to that kind of shit should be banned.

brigadista

14th August 2011, 23:38

So you live in the 'fourth world' and don't support Libyan protesters, but do support Western protests? Thats fair enough but is it not hypocritical to then call people who do the opposite romanticists? What makes the Libyan protesters (who were initially peaceful but started to riot after they were shot at from military helicopters) less legit than London protesters? I'm not trying to be a dick here I just genuinely don't get where you're coming from..

Quote:

im not going to derail this thread as there are a lot of threads on revleft about libya just replying with i dont support people who call for NATO support and lynch black africans- that is my last word on that in reply to you-

Viet Minh

15th August 2011, 01:08

im not going to derail this thread as there are a lot of threads on revleft about libya just replying with i dont support people who call for NATO support and lynch black africans- that is my last word on that in reply to you-

But apparently you do endorse the people who beat up an Indonesian student, murdered three young men by running them over, and endangered innocent peoples lives with arson attacks.

brigadista

15th August 2011, 01:59

But apparently you do endorse the people who beat up an Indonesian student, murdered three young men by running them over, and endangered innocent peoples lives with arson attacks.

you keep watching the tv and reading the capitalist press if your above soundbite are what you rely on- its much more complicated than the "media highlights" you quote

RGacky3

15th August 2011, 07:07

How did it used to be before the Left pushed for the ‘nanny state’?

Disruptive kids were caned; if they continued to be disruptive they were expelled. The result was that some fell into line and some fell by the wayside but the good kids (the majority) weren’t disadvantaged for the actions of a few idiots and the few idiots that fell by the wayside learned that there would always be consequences for their actions.

Yeah, and there was definately no senseless violence and criminality back then, you idiot.

Comforting words for the families of the three young men who were killed in Birmingham I'm sure.

It was'nt meant to be, it was meant to be a sociological insight.

Jazzratt

15th August 2011, 11:05

But apparently you do endorse the people who beat up an Indonesian student, murdered three young men by running them over, and endangered innocent peoples lives with arson attacks. This seems to be exactly what is meant by the "the first world "not in my backyard" attitude." The thing about violent civil unrest, you see, is that sometimes there is - and you won't believe this - some violence. Yeah, yeah obviously we shouldn't celebrate people beating students and running people over but plenty of pearls are being clutched over that already and with them the odious cries for tougher policing and other types of repression. If, at the first, smallest instance of violent unrest anywhere near you where it's all far less abstracted you start this sort of bullshit then you should probably consider what your politics actually are.

brigadista

15th August 2011, 11:34

http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=4029

Unemployed people are being sent to work without pay in multinational corporations, including Tesco, Asda, Primark and Hilton Hotels, by Jobcentres and companies administering the government's welfare reforms. Some are working for up to six months while receiving unemployment benefit of £67.50 a week or less.
The government says that unpaid work placements, which are also given in small businesses, voluntary organisations and public sector bodies, help people gain vital experience and prepare them for the workplace, but campaigners argue they provide companies with free labour, undercut existing jobs and that people are “bullied” into them.
In an interview published by Corporate Watch today, a woman who was given a placement in Primark for six months, under the previous government's welfare programme, says her work was the same as that of other paid staff and that she was not given a job at the end of it. She also says she was told her benefits would be stopped if she did not attend.
A variety of multinational companies in the retail and service sectors appear to be taking people on unpaid placements. Employment services company Working Links, which has been awarded contracts to administer the coalition’s flagship Work Programme in Wales, Scotland and the South West of England, told Corporate Watch it worked with all the major retailers across Britain and “actively promoted volunteering as a tool to help our customers in their journey to find sustainable employment.”
A Tesco spokesperson said the company has 3,000 work experience placements for “the young unemployed,” while Asda and Sainsbury's are both named in a list, obtained last month under the Freedom of Information Act, of companies, voluntary and public sector bodies taking unpaid work placements organised by A4e, another employment company contracted by the government, although Sainsbury's denied working with A4e.
This comes after the discounter Poundland had been revealed to be taking people on unpaid placements earlier this year (see here).
The corporate placements are not limited to retail: Hilton Hotels told Corporate Watch they have “committed to 100 placements at hotels around the country – that’s more than one for every hotel we operate.”
Explaining the reasons behind its involvement, Hilton said: “the work experience initiative will help unemployed young people to develop the skills needed to secure a sustainable job,” but campaigners critical of these “workfare” programmes question why the companies are not paying a proper wage.
A spokesperson for the Boycott Workfare campaign said: “These placements are not designed to help people into full-time paid work but they serve to increase organisations' profits. They provide a constant stream of free labour and suppress wages by replacing paid workers with unpaid workers. People are coerced, bullied and sanctioned into taking the placements. Placements in the public sector and charities are no better and are making volunteering compulsory. This is taking away the right of a person to sell their own labour and their free will to choose who they volunteer their time for.”
When asked by Corporate Watch, the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) did not say how many placements led to paid jobs. Tesco said “many work placement staff starting on work placements will become Tesco employees,” while Hilton said “a number” of young people are offered full-time positions at the end of their placement. Asda and Primark did not comment. Sainsbury’s said they organise their own ‘You Can’ programme, outside the government schemes, which they said always leads to paid work.
People are sent to work unpaid through different government schemes, all under the Get Britain Working banner. Tesco and Hilton are taking 18-24 year olds for between two to eight weeks on Work Experience Placements direct from Jobcentres. People were sent to Primark and Asda by contracted employment companies through the previous government's Flexible New Deal for up to six months and this will be continued in the recently started Work Programme. The DWP said the decision to send people to corporations under the Work Programme will be made by the employment provider companies as they see fit.
This is in addition to the Mandatory Work Activity scheme, through which 20,000 people will be sent to work (unpaid) for up to 30 hours a week for 4 weeks. The DWP said these jobs will “deliver a contribution to the local community” and will not involve major corporations.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

15th August 2011, 14:15

Who'da thunk it, providing greedy corporations with a source of free and compliant labour makes it harder for people to get actual paying jobs.

The JobCentre and companies like A4e typically justify this slavery by saying it "adds to your CV", but let's be honest - the kind of work experience that placements typically provide could be done by a lobotomised monkey, and if companies aren't willing to pay you in the first place, then they definitely aren't willing to provide the kind of training and skills (proper stuff, not bullshit) that might actually help one get a job.

I have heard of people acquiring CSCS or SIA licences (which enable one to get labouring and security jobs respectively) via A4e, but I've yet to see it for myself, and similar opportunities are both rare and poorly promoted.

The way things are currently set up, it's doing nothing but storing up more trouble for the future.

Viet Minh

15th August 2011, 18:26

you keep watching the tv and reading the capitalist press if your above soundbite are what you rely on- its much more complicated than the "media highlights" you quote

I have a lot of friends and relatives in and near the places the riots have affected who have told me a lot of whats happening thats not in the press, as it happens though the three young men who were needlessly murdered I heard about in the media. So yeah its probably a corporate lie.

It was'nt meant to be, it was meant to be a sociological insight.

And you may have a point, but it doesn't justify the actions of a number of the rioters.

This seems to be exactly what is meant by the "the first world "not in my backyard" attitude." The thing about violent civil unrest, you see, is that sometimes there is - and you won't believe this - some violence. Yeah, yeah obviously we shouldn't celebrate people beating students and running people over but plenty of pearls are being clutched over that already and with them the odious cries for tougher policing and other types of repression. If, at the first, smallest instance of violent unrest anywhere near you where it's all far less abstracted you start this sort of bullshit then you should probably consider what your politics actually are.

Thanks for the patronising attitude, you'll remember that I condemned the rioters and the Libyan forces for attacks on civilians when everyone else was defending them to the hilt, lynchings, shootings from helicopters etc. I've been in protests and riots before, not once have I felt the need to run over some people to steal money from their off license. Btw its not exacty near me, I live in Scotland, it doesn't mean I don't care about the people involved. If you bothered to read some of my other posts you'd perhaps detect a hint of outrage at the fact that the tories, having created this situation, now want to use it to crack down on hard-won civil liberties. I'm in support of the protesters, of course, but that doesn't excuse these incidents I have mentioned above. My politics don't include murdering working class people for money, I know that much. And any 'revolutionary' movement that justifies and condones and excuses such a thing (and apparently attacks any who speak out against the incidents themselves) is not the socialist future I hope for personally.

RGacky3

15th August 2011, 18:38

And you may have a point, but it doesn't justify the actions of a number of the rioters.

I was'nt justifying it, anymore than you can justify an unemployed man stealing, my point is condemnation is pointless, it won't do anything, these actions were not immoral actions, in the sense that they were thought out and done, they are not even amoral, they are a spontaneous ration.

I'm not justifying, I'm saying we need to look at the bigger picture.

I have a lot of friends and relatives in and near the places the riots have affected, as it happens though the three young men who were needlessly murdered I heard about in the media. Maybe its a corporate lie though whatever.

When the Spanish revolution happened, innocent people were killed, nuns, priests, people who had a politically conservative background, and I condemned those killings, and I would NEVER endorce what happened there. But if you look at the bigger picture you see things from a different light, you see the power dynamics at play, the desperation of the working class.

I'm not saying these 2 situations are the same, far from it, my point is that you can't look at these things in a vacume, we all agree on this, the only point of disagreement is focus.

Viet Minh

15th August 2011, 19:13

I was'nt justifying it, anymore than you can justify an unemployed man stealing, my point is condemnation is pointless, it won't do anything, these actions were not immoral actions, in the sense that they were thought out and done, they are not even amoral, they are a spontaneous ration.

I'm not justifying, I'm saying we need to look at the bigger picture.

Stealing is justified when you have nothing, even perhaps stealing from immigrants who run small business to support their family. Killing them is not, however, unless we were talking about the super-rich who are responsible for the system and opression of workers. I can understand the rioters anger, I feel the same exact way myself, and for 99% of them they have done exactly the right thing and targetted big business, hitting them where it hurts. But it seems as though some people here would excuse a few murders as being 'par for the course'. Of course a real revolution cannot be bloodless, I'm not naive enough to suggest it could, but no matter how you look at it this is not a leftist revolution, and if it was what sort of system excuses a few civilian murders for the greater good?

When the Spanish revolution happened, innocent people were killed, nuns, priests, people who had a politically conservative background, and I condemned those killings, and I would NEVER endorce what happened there. But if you look at the bigger picture you see things from a different light, you see the power dynamics at play, the desperation of the working class.

I'm not saying these 2 situations are the same, far from it, my point is that you can't look at these things in a vacume, we all agree on this, the only point of disagreement is focus.

Its true. Just to clarify I support the protests wholeheartedly, in fact I would have joined them myself if I had money for the bus! But I'm not throwing my ideas of morality out the window just because its an unfortunate 'inevitable' part of the greater cause which I support. And it doesn't matter if the cause is here or in Nepal, someone who murders an innocent person is not a soldier of the revolution they are just another potential opressor of the people.

balaclava

15th August 2011, 20:16

Bs Bs And More BS . I dont usually rely on anecdotal info but

Evidence – see here.

If a child has been permanently excluded, the local education authority must make sure that alternative, full-time education is provided from the sixth day of their exclusion.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_family/education/problems_at_school.htm#Exclusion_from_school (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_family/education/problems_at_school.htm#Exclusion_from_school)

Secondary schools are being fined millions of pounds a year for expelling violent and abusive pupils. . . .Critics claim the fines put unacceptable pressure on head teachers to avoid permanently excluding pupils, undermining their authority and robbing them of the ultimate sanction in the battle against unruly behaviour in the classroom.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3501398/Schools-fined-for-expelling-violent-pupils.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3501398/Schools-fined-for-expelling-violent-pupils.html)

Schools may be forced by financial; constraints to retain their worst-behaved pupils under a controversial new policy forming part of the government’s education reforms. Head teachers are concerned that their school budgets will be expected to finance outside education for pupils expelled for violent and disruptive behaviour
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8207625/Rules-on-school-expulsions-will-fuel-bad-behaviour.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8207625/Rules-on-school-expulsions-will-fuel-bad-behaviour.html)

Exclusion from school does not mean exclusion from education; local authorities have a duty to provide suitable full-time alternative education for any permanently excluded pupil of compulsory school age from the sixth day of the exclusion.66
http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=RP11-14 (http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=RP11-14)