Would civilizations advance in the same way for all civilized life forms?

[Dogs On Acid]

xjBIsp8mS-c

Stephen Hawking proposed that we are the only space civilization in 100+ light years away.

This is due to 2 factors:

-Radio waves travel at the speed of light, hence alien waves either haven't reached us yet, they reached us before we developed radio technology, or they never reached us at all.

-Civilizations eventually self-destruct, so there is no sign of any surviving technologically superior life in this 100+ limit.


This leads me to my questions:

Would all sapient creatures evolve socially in the same way as us? Starting with nomadism and eventually reaching today's Capitalism, then moving on to another political system more advanced than ours? (Communism or other)

If they eventually self-destruct, then no matter what political system we live in, we can never achieve stability in human affairs?

If the answer to the 1st question is true, then so is the answer to the 2nd. We will eventually kill ourselves.
If so, then no alien life has reached the technology allowing the colonization of other planets, to become self-sufficient, and to maintain it's survival from a war/disease/natural disaster.

Food for thought.

[hatzel]

Would all sapient creatures evolve socially in the same way as us? Starting with nomadism and eventually reaching today's Capitalism, then moving on to another political system more advanced than ours? (Communism or other)

In a word: no. That degree of determinism, totally removed from any consideration of the nature of their environment or even their own bodies, let alone luck and chance, as well as countless other factors, over the course of hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of years, is just...no, no, none of that...

[Hit The North]

Also, contrary to what Hawking thinks, we have no evidence that all civilizations self-destruct, whilst human global history shows a line of development in terms of increasing the means of production, despite the various setbacks of this or that local power declining.

[Manic Impressive]

a civilisation with abundant resources meaning no need to compete for resources would not self destruct unless it was an oppressive regime of some sort.

[Psy]

xjBIsp8mS-c

Stephen Hawking proposed that we are the only space civilization in 100+ light years away.

This is due to 2 factors:

-Radio waves travel at the speed of light, hence alien waves either haven't reached us yet, they reached us before we developed radio technology, or they never reached us at all.

Or we can't hear their radio waves do to background noise being much higher then their signal from our position in the universe due to the space civilization not caring about their signal strength this far out.



-Civilizations eventually self-destruct, so there is no sign of any surviving technologically superior life in this 100+ limit.

There is no proof that civilizations naturally self-destruct.

[sunfarstar]

事实上，生命的诞生的机率总是大于零。不必担心，文明的进化是严谨的。符合宇宙的规律。:rolleyes :

[Dogs On Acid]

Or we can't hear their radio waves do to background noise being much higher then their signal from our position in the universe due to the space civilization not caring about their signal strength this far out.

An alien signal would look nothing like background noise, they would either send a series of prime numbers, or binary code. The only phenomena that could be confused with an alien signal is a pulsar's radio waves, because they can be periodic.



There is no proof that civilizations naturally self-destruct.


There is also no proof that they don't.

[Psy]

An alien signal would look nothing like background noise, they would either send a series of prime numbers, or binary code. The only phenomena that could be confused with an alien signal is a pulsar's radio waves, because they can be periodic.

I meant alien civilizations don't care if background noise like those stars produce overpowers their broadcast this far out, because they are not trying to contact us, they are not broadcasting any prime number of binary codes as they are only broadcasting within their civilian thus the broadcast is weak and easily distorted this far out.

[Dogs On Acid]

I meant alien civilizations don't care if background noise like those stars produce overpowers their broadcast this far out, because they are not trying to contact us, they are not broadcasting any prime number of binary codes as they are only broadcasting within their civilian thus the broadcast is weak and easily distorted this far out.

And why wouldn't they want to try to reach us?

[Psy]

And why wouldn't they want to try to reach us?
A) Their religion doesn't account for there being any other intelligent. If their "God" says aliens don't exists why would they listen for broadcasts or make broadcasts for alien contact?

B) They simply don't spend the resources to look for aliens far outside their solar system when their scientists admit they might be alone in the universe.

C) They have come into contact with other aliens that resulted in interplanetary rivalry so they don't want to alert other aliens to notice them as they fear of being found by other spacefaring imperialist powers.

[Revy]

A radio wave would fizzle out somewhere in the solar system, meaning that unless there is a civilization on Jupiter that is using radio, it isn't going to hear us really well. A laser is better, but another civilization would have to be looking for beams of light coming from Earth, which is like looking for a needle in haystack in cosmic terms. If we are going to contact an alien civilization, it might have to come from them, instead of us. It clearly takes more technology than we have at this point.

http://www.helium.com/items/1438752-contacting-aliens/print

[Dogs On Acid]

A) Their religion doesn't account for there being any other intelligent. If their "God" says aliens don't exists why would they listen for broadcasts or make broadcasts for alien contact?

That is quite implausible. At that point of technology religion would start to wither away and be replaced by science. And the chances of their religion having this specific trait would be immensely low.


B) They simply don't spend the resources to look for aliens far outside their solar system when their scientists admit they might be alone in the universe.

It's not expensive to broadcast radio waves.


C) They have come into contact with other aliens that resulted in interplanetary rivalry so they don't want to alert other aliens to notice them as they fear of being found by other spacefaring imperialist powers.

In this case they have obviously already broadcasted radio waves in all directions and ours would be one of them.

[Psy]

That is quite implausible. At that point of technology religion would start to wither away and be replaced by science. And the chances of their religion having this specific trait would be immensely low.

You are assuming the alien ruling class wants religion to wither away and unable to fortify religion in society . Both Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany developed advanced technology while using religion to control the masses so it is very possible for a advanced technology civilian to exist while being highly religious.

Under the right circumstances even a alien feudal society could develop technology and the bourgeoisie never able to topple the feudal ruling class yet the feudal ruling class slowly taking on the role of the bourgeois without abandoning its justification of rule through the church, thus getting technology while having the church playing a key role in defending state power.



It's not expensive to broadcast radio waves.

Normal radio waves don't go very far in space before being deteriorated by background radiation.




In this case they have obviously already broadcasted radio waves in all directions and ours would be one of them.
Right that would mean they would have to listening for us at that time or we would have to.

[Kiev Communard]

This is rather intriguing question, but it ultimately depends on whether their biological evolution proceeded in the same way as ours, as some forms of social organization of the intelligent beings, both egalitarian and class-based, are clearly influenced by the social behaviour that their evolutionary forebearers exhibited. For instance, modern humans are equally capable of egalitarian and authoritarian societal organization, which reflects the double tendencies of social interaction common to all high apes.

[Blake's Baby]

But the argument is whether self-aware socially-cohesive creatures (by which I take it the OP, and indeed Hawking, meant 'civilised') must develop along a similar path to humanity. Seems some say yes ('leaders say God said don't look for aliens' is very anthrocentric it seems to me) and some say no... but on what grounds?

Any intelligent self-aware social race needs to co-operate to survive; seems there can only be two forms of co-operation to me, one that requires social force (ie, class society) and one that doesn't (communism, primitive or advanced). Is there another option? A kind of society that is neither a class society, nor a non-class society?

In detail, no there doesn't have to be capitalism for an alien race to reach a technological level sufficient to start spreading out into space, but I'd contend that social strife (class warfare and/or competing 'alien nations' or other power groups - religions or whatever) would make the social co-operation necessary for the scientific endevour of space exploration much less likely. Sure, the Cold War drove the Space Race, so how much further might humanity have got if most of the effort hadn't gone into out-competing each other? Back in the '80s, the Russians had Mir (but needed expensive rockets to reach it), the Americans had the Shuttle (but nowhere to go). I'm not saying this is what 'should' have happened, but a more rational social organisation would have put those two things together...

So that implies that any spacefaring race would probably have put war and social division behind it already... ie they'd be spacecommies.

[Thirsty Crow]

So that implies that any spacefaring race would probably have put war and social division behind it already... ie they'd be spacecommies.
Just wait until spacecommies arrive and learn how the global working class is calling for their aid in getting rid of capitalists. All sorts of hell break loose, I tell ya'.

[Psy]

So that implies that any spacefaring race would probably have put war and social division behind it already... ie they'd be spacecommies.
Not really, the Universal Century Gundam is very possible where capitalism has spreads beyond the planet yet space fascists (Principality of Zeon) seize power due to the planet's ruling class being spread too thin in space, that in Gundam Z the planet's ruling class reacts to space fascism by becoming fascist themselves (Titans) and ramping up their brutal military occupation of the colonies.

[sunfarstar]

http://speakfreeforum.com/forum/forum54/5520.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/20013-25991-chinese-f44/index.html
http://www.google.com (http://www.google.com/) are best!

[Dogs On Acid]

http://speakfreeforum.com/forum/forum54/5520.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/20013-25991-chinese-f44/index.html
http://www.google.com (http://www.google.com/) are best!

Sunfarstar you take some really pure shit man...

GIMME SOME OF THAT!

[Reznov]

Also, contrary to what Hawking thinks, we have no evidence that all civilizations self-destruct, whilst human global history shows a line of development in terms of increasing the means of production, despite the various setbacks of this or that local power declining.

Agreed. While individual empires or civilizations might fall part, global human history is ever progressing. I don't see why other life forms might be any different. Unless you consider humans one day perhaps going extinct? Which I do not believe, but we will never know I suppose.

[sunfarstar]

这是量子引力学，你不知道我昨天晚上的实验。:lol:

[sunfarstar]

从 GMAIL 出发，到 BUZZ:sneaky:

[sunfarstar]

水火风土金

希望你理解，这是世界的，宇宙的运动模式。

[Zoid789]

Why would an advanced Ailen race even want to contact are primitive society?
What would they gain?

[Hit The North]

Why would an advanced Ailen race even want to contact are primitive society?
What would they gain?

New recipes?

Our kickass punk rock?

I suppose any advanced civilizations that came across us would be driven by the need for exploration, knowledge and (more worryingly) resources.

[Dogs On Acid]

New recipes?

Our kickass punk rock?

I suppose any advanced civilizations that came across us would be driven by the need for exploration, knowledge and (more worryingly) resources.

So that we can teach them how to get funky. Or maybe just knowledge...

[A Marxist Historian]

But the argument is whether self-aware socially-cohesive creatures (by which I take it the OP, and indeed Hawking, meant 'civilised') must develop along a similar path to humanity. Seems some say yes ('leaders say God said don't look for aliens' is very anthrocentric it seems to me) and some say no... but on what grounds?

Any intelligent self-aware social race needs to co-operate to survive; seems there can only be two forms of co-operation to me, one that requires social force (ie, class society) and one that doesn't (communism, primitive or advanced). Is there another option? A kind of society that is neither a class society, nor a non-class society?

In detail, no there doesn't have to be capitalism for an alien race to reach a technological level sufficient to start spreading out into space, but I'd contend that social strife (class warfare and/or competing 'alien nations' or other power groups - religions or whatever) would make the social co-operation necessary for the scientific endevour of space exploration much less likely. Sure, the Cold War drove the Space Race, so how much further might humanity have got if most of the effort hadn't gone into out-competing each other? Back in the '80s, the Russians had Mir (but needed expensive rockets to reach it), the Americans had the Shuttle (but nowhere to go). I'm not saying this is what 'should' have happened, but a more rational social organisation would have put those two things together...

So that implies that any spacefaring race would probably have put war and social division behind it already... ie they'd be spacecommies.

If there are any creatures out there who possess something resembling the incredibly unlikely accident we call "intelligence," they would be so utterly dissimilar to us that all the notions spread about in this thread would be meaningless in their terms, that is if they have something that we would call "terms."

One reassuring thought, they would be so biologically dissimilar that we could not possibly be edible to them.

However, other nasty possibilities exists. What if, for example, the creatures on earth with which they found the greatest similarity and had the most fellow feelings with were viruses, for example the AIDS virus?

-M.H.-

[Zealot]

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we are the most advanced civilization? Also, their civilization need not be any that you listed, it could very possibly be some sort of fascist regime

[Dogs On Acid]

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we are the most advanced civilization? Also, their civilization need not be any that you listed, it could very possibly be some sort of fascist regime

And with the age and size of the universe, the amount of possible Earth Planets, why would we be the most advanced civilization?

[Blake's Baby]

@ Fight Together: Because someone needs to be. We have no way of knowing if we're at the beginning, end, or middle of the continuum. We don't, actually, know if there is a continuum. We just look at a statistical model and say, yeah we're probably on that somewhere, let's guess the middle,that's where the action is. We're modelling probablities. But, in the words of Terry Pratchett, million-to-one chances crop up, nine times out of ten. We know that the conditions that led to life here are fairly improbable. It may be that Earth-similar life exists elsewhere; it may not. If it doesn't, we are by definition the most advanced civilisation of Earth-like life. As to non-Earth-like life, well... I'm fairly convinced that the dream of 'silicon-based' life is just a dream, but... as AMH points out extraterrestrial life may be utterly different from what we recognise.

@ Exporism, I assume you're addressing your 'they could be fascists' to me. Yeah, they could be. But I specifically addressed the idea that they could live in a society founded on inter-group conflict and think it's less likely (for the reasons I listed) than the counter-argumant - any group with the social co-operation required to put energy and resources into space exploration is more likely to have solved its other social problems first. Or the Gribblies from Northern Gribblia with no space programme but lots of conventional weapons would just attack the Gribblies of Southern Gribblia who have foolishly invested in Space Arks not hovertanks.

@ AMH: I agree that intellegence is a fairly unlikely occurrence in the universe. However, there is no necessity for any possible extra-terrestrial life to be so vastly different from what we recognise as life on Earth. It is however likely to be. Even given that, any alien 'society' even if it's made up of intellegent shades of the colour blue must have social rules, organisation and co-operation (otherwise it isn't a society). If it has social organisation, does that organisation point towards inequality between individuals and groups, or equality? The biology of the aliens doesn't really come into it, their society (rules of social organisation) must either be patterned around competing interest groups or around social co-operation. Possibly, if it's a species that has different forms (such as ants or bees) it may be that it could have a biologically-determined caste system and no class-conflict (all the worker-drones are always worker-drones), but I'm not convinced that such a society could develop space travel.

[Psy]

@ Exporism, I assume you're addressing your 'they could be fascists' to me. Yeah, they could be. But I specifically addressed the idea that they could live in a society founded on inter-group conflict and think it's less likely (for the reasons I listed) than the counter-argumant - any group with the social co-operation required to put energy and resources into space exploration is more likely to have solved its other social problems first. Or the Gribblies from Northern Gribblia with no space programme but lots of conventional weapons would just attack the Gribblies of Southern Gribblia who have foolishly invested in Space Arks not hovertanks.

There is the Gundam scenario, where capitalism has consecrated into a signal planetary imperialist power that builds space colonies as it needs to keep expanding the frontier to solve its crisis of capital. This causes the proletariat of space to become militant yet turns into fascism as the weaker bourgeoisie of space points to the planet and tell the space workers it is not a class issue but a issue of those on the planet vs those in space and the planetary bourgeois state is more then happy to frame the war along those lines and itself use fascist justifications to restore their dominance over the space colonies.

So in Gundam fascism requires space technology as strategic racism that is being used by both imperialist forces is down to those born in space vs those born on the on the planet. Thus hovertanks alone is not enough as the war also wages in space.