Law in Anarchy

[KevlarPants]

Now, I know that the old, beaten stereotype of anarchy being chaos is bullshit, and I believe that it's bullshit. But a lot of Anarchists (including myself) are against the police force, or at least it's current model.

But in an Anarchist nation or collective, how do you stop people from committing acts of violence, theft, rape, etc? Will people just be expected to defend themselves? Will there be a voluntary watch force?

Please excuse me for any retarded things I may have accidentally implied or said.

[hatzel]

Please excuse me for any retarded things I may have accidentally implied or said.

I know it's not anything like on-topic, but I'll just point out that you just said a 'retarded' [sic] thing right there...

[Tim Cornelis]

There was recently a thread on this, I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Can't find it, but customary law and anarchism are compatible.

A piece of information about customary law in a stateless society, just ignore the parts about private property:
http://mises.org/daily/2542

[Skammunist]

In an anarchist society, assuming that goods are produced for need and not profit, you probably won't have to worry about theft. Most thefts I would say occur because of people's poor living conditions. So really, a lot of crime will be diminished already in an anarchy. For more serious crimes such as rape however, I don't know. You say you don't believe in a police force, so I would say maybe a neighborhood watch group or private protection groups? I really don't think they'll be as good at catching criminals as well as today's police force unless they have access to the same equipment and training. How tenable this will be in a post-revolutionary society, again I don't know.

[Red And Black Sabot]

I think that should be left up to the community or collective. (although I hope that there will never be such a thing as an "anarchist nation".)
In Catalonia it was up to re-callable, democratic, worker's militias wich is different than a hierarchical, coercive, force enacting bourgeois laws onto the community.
Laws in an anarchist society can simply be recommendations as in -this community prefers you not do this or that- with no real consequence if you choose to do it anyway (I'm thinking about stuff like drug use and etc) or there could be decentralized assemblies that democratically establish more formal communal rules and ways to enforce them along with some sort of restitution or community service or an accountability process.

[Rafiq]

Don't make blueprints for the future.

[Bardo]

No police force =/= no security force.

This discussion seems to go hand in hand with the "how does an anarchist society defend against aggressive centralized states?" discussion. There will still be weapons and there will still be people trained to use them.

[socialistjustin]

In some areas of Mexico they have a form of community police and the police are community members who volunteer. People who are caught doing crimes have to perform community service and people are given back to family members in a sort of ceremony. Not sure about the ceremony bit, but the rest sounds alright.

[hatzel]

Perhaps a strange source of inspiration, but this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gypsy-Law-Romani-Traditions-Culture/dp/0520221869/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312759987&sr=8-1) has an essay called (if I remember correctly) 'Autonomous law-making in the Gypsy community' which pretty much gives an overview of the incredibly ritualised, though entirely autonomous, legal process amongst the Roma in Eastern Europe. This applies to what we may call 'typical' legal disputes (for instance, monetary matters) as well as those concerning ritual purity and its inverse, and who has been 'defiled' in some way, such as those who have spent time in prison.

It largely involves a trial of sorts in front of the best orators in the village, with a lot of story-telling (most of it from the 'defendant,' believe it or not, as this is usually the bulk of their case), followed by an apology, sometimes a token cash offering to the aggrieved (if there is one), and then the community agrees to forget the whole affair, pretends there was never even any problem, and everybody is rehabilitated. And, of course, all this without a State sticking its nose in. The viability of this system within their own communities over the course of centuries suggests that similar ideas could, potentially, be adopted in an anarchic society.

I'm not claiming it's perfect, but it's definitely an interesting starting point...

[Nox]

Well, firstly there would be very little crime, and virtually all of said crime will be motivated by mental illness. So I guess there would be a small police force run by the people, but nothing too excessive.

[Weezer]

Don't be silly. The lack of state does not equal a lack of government. Government is a simply a means of organization.

What motivates people to steal? The lack of goods.

In an anarchist/stateless communist society, goods are provided via the gift economy. There's no need to steal, though undoubtedly there will be theft, but on a much smaller scale than in capitalist societies. Keep in mind kleptomania and other associated illnesses won't be abolished just because the state is.

Thieves would be dealt with by the local community. The punishment will probably be something like community service hours. Kleptomaniacs and such, however, because the stealing was a result of their mental illness, should be given psychiatric help such as therapy.

For more serious crimes other than petty theft, such as murder and rape, I again would suggest community service, but rather than a few days or weeks for petty theft, murderers and rapists that show no signs of mental illnesses, should be sentenced to years of community service.

Once you compromise someone else's human rights, you automatically sacrifice your own, IMO, and therefore murderers and rapists, who committed those crimes in their own free will, be stripped of their rights. Murderers and rapists with mental illnesses should be rehabilitated in mental facilities, and released when deemed sane.

The authority of all this would be ran, again, by the local community or council, as they are the only legitimate authority to handle these crimes.

There probably would be some loosely-ran militias and make-shift police forces in times of crisis, but for the most part, petty theft could be stopped by regular security cameras catching them and security guards within distribution centers(or wherever the thief is stealing) to apprehend and stop them.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I think that should be left up to the community or collective. (although I hope that there will never be such a thing as an "anarchist nation".)
In Catalonia it was up to re-callable, democratic, worker's militias wich is different than a hierarchical, coercive, force enacting bourgeois laws onto the community.
Laws in an anarchist society can simply be recommendations as in -this community prefers you not do this or that- with no real consequence if you choose to do it anyway (I'm thinking about stuff like drug use and etc) or there could be decentralized assemblies that democratically establish more formal communal rules and ways to enforce them along with some sort of restitution or community service or an accountability process.
This

Does anybody know how the Zapatista communities 'police' themselves? I can't recall at the moment, but for some reason I'm thinking it's similar to this, with a community council determining the best course of action.

[hatzel]

The punishment will probably be something like community service hours.

People often say this, but community service, in the present day, is largely defined by its being unpaid work. If all work in a communist society is, for all intents and purposes, unpaid – as appears to be the case in your argument, given the fact that you claim that crime will be dramatically reduced by free access, – what is the point of community service? If one already paints fences or cleans up rubbish without getting any direct reward for these efforts, with everybody merely working for the good of the community at large – this being pretty fundamental in a gift economy, – then what exactly is community service, that is to say, painting fences or cleaning up rubbish without getting any direct reward for these efforts? What's the use, and how exactly would it be organised to differentiate it from 'standard' work? Unless, of course, you seek the abolition of work itself, which might restore the concept of community service as something out of the ordinary, it then being the only work undertaken...

[Weezer]

People often say this, but community service, in the present day, is largely defined by its being unpaid work. If all work in a communist society is, for all intents and purposes, unpaid – as appears to be the case in your argument, given the fact that you claim that crime will be dramatically reduced by free access, – what is the point of community service? If one already paints fences or cleans up rubbish without getting any direct reward for these efforts, with everybody merely working for the good of the community at large – this being pretty fundamental in a gift economy, – then what exactly is community service, that is to say, painting fences or cleaning up rubbish without getting any direct reward for these efforts? What's the use, and how exactly would it be organised to differentiate it from 'standard' work? Unless, of course, you seek the abolition of work itself, which might restore the concept of community service as something out of the ordinary, it then being the only work undertaken...

I don't seek the abolition of work, unless you define work as doing an undesirable thing.

I think technology will be doing a lot of undesirable tasks in the future when communism occurs, and sadly I realize there are faults in my solution, so I can't give a real solid answer.

There has to be some kind of undesirable task in the future that's out of the ordinary or some task that's only left for criminals. I can't give details because I lack of knowledge of future technology, but I don't see it any other way.

666th post <3

[noble brown]

This idea that there will be very lil crime in an anarchist society is kind of lame. There will ALWAYS be social norm defectors. We just happen to call one class of social norm defectors Criminals. Free association is key here. When we freely associate with a group we are explicitly agreeing to wat the groups norms are with full disclosure. No matter wat your groups norms are ppl are always going to violate them. And the beauty of anarchism is that u get to agree to wat happens when someone defects normatively, no one u haven't agreed with can tell you how to deal w it. The community will decide. Community empowerment.

[Luc]

Just a suggestion:

3 universal laws across Communes: Don't rape, Don't torture, Don't kill civilians. (those are the only real crimes I can think of atm)

Basically things that ruin people's lives... greatly injuring someone on purpose could be another but I would put that with torture in the sense of causing physical pain and/or damage, 2 needs a better name.

Everything else could be up to the Commune (Community). For example, it is the Community's choice if it wants drugs and guns in their Community. Perhaps if the amount of drug users/gun owners is low (like 1-5) they could make exceptions for individuals they trust (licenses?).

How to prevent crimes/enforce laws? Dunno again, up to the Communes. Personally I don't like the idea of a group of people having all the guns like a militia or police or even a military.

How to deal with criminals? I suggest forcefully removing them from the Community (yes, most likely at gun point, or we could drug it, drive it out to the sovereign border, and leave a note saying "don't come back":laugh:) and preventing them from coming back by means decided by the Commune.

or We could have an island for the violaters of the 3 universal laws :unsure:

Obviously crime should be lower, I think we all know that and consider it.

Just a suggestion founded on nothing else but thinking, no facts or research:D obviously needs improvement.

Congrats In Utero

[MarxSchmarx]

This idea that there will be very lil crime in an anarchist society is kind of lame. There will ALWAYS be social norm defectors. We just happen to call one class of social norm defectors Criminals. Free association is key here. When we freely associate with a group we are explicitly agreeing to wat the groups norms are with full disclosure. No matter wat your groups norms are ppl are always going to violate them. And the beauty of anarchism is that u get to agree to wat happens when someone defects normatively, no one u haven't agreed with can tell you how to deal w it. The community will decide. Community empowerment.

So if the community decides that anybody who is left handed should be drawn and quartered or burned at the stake then that is acceptable?

[noble brown]

So if the community decides that anybody who is left handed should be drawn and quartered or burned at the stake then that is acceptable?

Like I said membership to the community would be explicit. As long as we agree to
cooperate we will. If u agree that all left handed ppl should "drawn and quarter" then ur most likely to b right handed, agreed? So who's to punish for being left handed if everyone in your communtiyis right handed from the jump?

Anthropoligists have found some universal social norms. Not only cross culturally but cross species. It appears that in order for social structure of any sort to be sustainable there is a "physics" to social structure. These are the most basic of rules in order to sustain a social structure. One of these was no lying and could be expanded to no decitfullness I don't remember the others of hand but I could provide resources if asked.

A big one should be individual accountability and social responsiblity

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Now, I know that the old, beaten stereotype of anarchy being chaos is bullshit, and I believe that it's bullshit. But a lot of Anarchists (including myself) are against the police force, or at least it's current model.

But in an Anarchist nation or collective, how do you stop people from committing acts of violence, theft, rape, etc? Will people just be expected to defend themselves? Will there be a voluntary watch force?

I'm not an Anarchist, so take this with a grain of salt but I have spoken to a few and have read works by some of the biggies in Anarchist theory and praxis. I think the propose a voluntary police force or defense group. I also believe they propose that laws be voted upon by the collective and if it has the support of the majority then it will be enacted. As for how you would stop violent crime, theft and these sorts of things I think they would argue the same as other Socialists, Marxists and others argue which is that majority of these social ills stem from the problems inherent in capital. If this is corrected then the incentive of motive that triggers or fuels these crimes wouldn't be there and you would see a significant decrease in these types of thing if not the majority of it being completely done with all together. I am curious to hear some responses and again, I'm not an Anarchist.

[The Man]

Apparently in Anarchist Catalonia, councils just handed out armbands to trustworthy people that were elected to take part in security. These people just basically watched over the community, and these people took turns in making sure everything was in order.

[ellipsis]

Please excuse me for any retarded things I may have accidentally implied or said.

Verbal Warning for prejudice language.