Break the capitalist weapons via entryism?

[Susurrus]

It seems to me that a possible tactic might be to have leftists join the army and police to try to change the nature of those organizations. In the Russian Revolution, the armed forces were more or less entirely revolutionary, and the regular police seemed at the very least sympathetic. Could similar mass entryism be applied to the armed forces and police of today?

As I recall, there are at least a couple soldiers on revleft, and I would like their opinion on whether the lower ranks of soldiers could be converted to leftism, or if this is a fanciful assumption.

Discuss.

[Q]

It could. But it presupposes mass organisations of the working class, doing long term work in the army and police to try and make those forces unreliable to the state and aide the working class movement when there is a revolutionary situation. Having small communist cells in there will just get you lined up against a wall.

But we have to consider the nature of the armed forces as well. While in Tsarist Russia the army was completely conscripted (as far as I'm aware), today's army is largely professional in most developed capitalist countries. The implication is that while a conscript still has the prospect of a job to return to when his/her service is over, a professional soldier does not, or at least not immediately. The loyalties to the working class proper is therefore not as strong in the latter.

[Susurrus]

Well, we would probably not have to target much of the officers, and the lower level soldiers are not usually professional soldiers(at least in the us), but instead people working for lack of another job, or for college money. They are also largely working class, I believe.

[Q]

... and the lower level soldiers are not usually professional soldiers(at least in the us)

This is somewhat news to me. I thought the US only conscripts when the times are dire (like now in Afghanistan) to secure a steady flow of fresh meat.

In the Netherlands, the army is completely professional and conscription has been suspended (not abolished though) since 1997.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

US Trotskyists came up with the Military Transitional Program about just this thing but as Q mentioned any revolutionary left infiltration of the military and intelligence orgs would presuppose a large level of class resistance on the part of the working class as well as influential revolutionary parties. Lacking this, a would be infiltrator would be lined up against a wall (or be treated like Bradley Manning).

https://www.marxists.org/archive/cannon/works/1940/mpa1.htm

[Susurrus]

This is somewhat news to me. I thought the US only conscripts when the times are dire (like now in Afghanistan) to secure a steady flow of fresh meat.

In the Netherlands, the army is completely professional and conscription has been suspended (not abolished though) since 1997.

As I am familiar with it, the term "professional soldier" refers to a person intending to make the military their lifelong career, rather than a person who signs up voluntarily. There is no conscription at the moment in the US, though soldiers will often have their tour of duty involuntarily extended.

[The Douche]

Dumb idea.

[danyboy27]

The vietcong where able to infiltrate the south vietnam army at a verry high echelon, with some verry interesting results.

so yea, its possible i guess, to infiltrate an organisation like this and sabotage it in a way or another, but its really risky.

[Rooster]

As I am familiar with it, the term "professional soldier" refers to a person intending to make the military their lifelong career, rather than a person who signs up voluntarily. There is no conscription at the moment in the US, though soldiers will often have their tour of duty involuntarily extended.

A professional army generally refers to one where people enter it voluntarily with prospect for a career and a wage. You're entering a profession of sorts.

[Zealot]

Well yes, it could work but....any volunteers? ;)

And you would probably get arrested as a domestic terrorist or something. It would take a lot of planning and dedicated people

[The Idler]

If you live in a democracy, and can persuade a majority, covert entryism into the forces won't be necessary.

[Susurrus]

If you live in a democracy, and can persuade a majority, covert entryism into the forces won't be necessary.

I highly doubt capitalism will be overthrown in a mid-term election.

[Red Future]

Only in a conscript army ..with an unpopular war and economic hardship ..exactly the conditions in 1917 in Russia , when the tsarist army fell to pieces.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Infiltrating would be no problem, however you could be charged with insubordination and degrading the moral of the troops. Also, it would take some very, very dedicated people who could hide their intentions from their commanding officers, and those who would report them. In a military such as the US's this would be incredibely difficult to do, unless of course, as mentioned before there is a very unpopular war with an army consisting of mostly conscripts.

However this is unlikely that a war will be that unpopular, at least for the people of the US the corporate media's propaganda has a stranglehold on the peoples decision making abilities.

The best way would be to try and push out US/NATO bases out of countries using paramilitary action organized by the people. The US won't go to war with say England or Germany, but if enough damage is inflicted on their troops stationed there the risk of staying will outweigh the rewards. At least I would think so.

[citizen of industry]

I was in the military. Most people in the military do come from working class backgrounds and there is a very large percentage of minorities - much larger than in the normal population. So, yeah, many people do join for economic reasons, not for patriotism. On my ship, there were pictures of Bush, Rumsfeld, etc. in the entrances to each workplace, but nobody was very patriotic, aside from officers, and nobody particularly liked the military, only the economic benefits.

I think many people in the military would be receptive, but that assumes you already have a mass leftist organization in civilian society.

On another note, the military changes people. Take a look at organizations like IVAW. I was in this for a year. After getting out of the military and returning to capitalist wage slavery I very soon became a Marxist. Many Irag or Afghanistan combat veterans experienced the worst imperialism has to offer first hand. If you know any veterans, talk to them.