Riots in Tottenham, Police Cars set on fire (London's burning)

[Zanthorus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14434318
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14434111

This is on the cause of the riots:

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/9181207.Tottenham_Hale_man_was_shot_by_firearms_of ficers_after_arrest_attempt/

[Bitter Ashes]

Without the state being able to provide justice, while blocking these people from taking these coppers to a real court, options become slim and everything boils down to whether to sit back and let the coppers kill again, or to do exactly what they're doing in Tottenham.

Fuck the state for forcing good people to choose between injustice and having to put their own necks on the line. Solidarity brothers and sisters.

[Tim Cornelis]

These cases are always complicated. If the victim started shooting first, I can hardly point the blaming finger to the police--even as an anarchist. But then again, the police has a long and rich history of manipulating the facts in their favour, so whatever comes out of their mouths is to be doubted.

[human strike]

I really hope it's true that the job centre is on fire.

[RedSquare]

According to all media reports, the guy was highly involved in crime and before he was shot, he wounded a cop in the chest at close range, partially deflect by the officers radio clipped on at the chest.

I think the spark that was needed to ignite a tinderbox has happened, there's a lot of mention of stop and searches on youth in the area in the past so I imagine they've reached boiling point. However, it won't do their community any good in my view.

[Threetune]

According to all media reports, the guy was highly involved in crime and before he was shot, he wounded a cop in the chest at close range, partially deflect by the officers radio clipped on at the chest.

I think the spark that was needed to ignite a tinderbox has happened, there's a lot of mention of stop and searches on youth in the area in the past so I imagine they've reached boiling point. However, it won't do their community any good in my view.

“the guy was highly involved in crime” ? What a lode of middle class shite. The entire state, press, parliament and banks is one big violent crime syndicate. Get your effing head on straight comrade.

[bcbm]

These cases are always complicated. If the victim started shooting first, I can hardly point the blaming finger to the police

i can. fuck the police


According to all media reports, the guy was highly involved in crime

who cares? this guy isn't the issue the police are the issue. fuck the police

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/8/6/1312669949210/Tottenham-riots-004.jpg

[Threetune]

These cases are always complicated. If the victim started shooting first, I can hardly point the blaming finger to the police--even as an anarchist. But then again, the police has a long and rich history of manipulating the facts in their favour, so whatever comes out of their mouths is to be doubted.

Oh dear, anti-state violence may have been started by some crime incident, what a shock to the middle class anarchists system that must be. Grow up! Read some Lenin and stop wasting our time.

[bricolage]

yeah it's quite obvious this isn't just to do with one guy, you're a fool if you believe resentment just comes from one isolated case and riots from the same. sparks are sparks but then only spark if you have something to throw them on. people hate the police and they have every reason to do so.

[Sasha]

if it was every prudent to post this song:
F9Eck6rox0s

[Die Neue Zeit]

Is this another case of protesting against growing police brutality and public perceptions of it?

[Threetune]

Is this another case of protesting against growing police brutality and public perceptions of it?

Are you lot nuts? The economic system has hit the cliff face and the caps have been racheting up the violence in all directions for years. If you don’t know that your job now is to attack the state and its supporters, you know nothing. Read some Lenin.

[Tim Finnegan]

Are you lot nuts? The economic system has hit the cliff face and the caps have been racheting up the violence in all directions for years. If you don’t know that your job now is to attack the state and its supporters, you know nothing. Read some Lenin.
I neither understand what point you're trying to make, or why you felt the need to make it in a bold font.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ I don't think he's heard of "taser" technology and various news articles on the subject.

[bots]

Listen guys, just read some Lenin.

Seriously though I hope everyone in Tottenham is having a good time.

[scarletghoul]

Great to see people fight back against the murdering pigs.

[rednordman]

Cue to right wing media talking the ulitmate moral highground, and being horrified by this 'issolated small group of thugs and vilians' making a cowardly attack against the poor innocent police, and the people of Tottenham....:rolleyes:

[rednordman]

Because coppers really care and are their to protect people....if only.

[red flag over teeside]

Expect more riots not only in London but across all cities as the impact of the cuts and capitalist repression increases. While I can understand the reasons why these riots occured and will support them against capitalist state repression the task is to change these riots into class based challenges to capitalism. At the end of the day the police can isolate the rebellions and let them burn themselves out.

[Fawkes]

Sounds like that Mark Duggan guy should've read some Lenin.














It doesn't matter where a spark comes from or how valid it is, it's what occurs after that matters.

[Sasha]

Cue to right wing media talking the ulitmate moral highground, and being horrified by this 'issolated small group of thugs and vilians' making a cowardly attack against the poor innocent police, and the people of Tottenham....:rolleyes:


cue ian bone (classwar) having an orgasm: http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/fantastic-tottenham-brutal-murdering-met-cops-get-what-was-coming-to-them/ :lol:

[Manic Impressive]

if it was every prudent to post this song:

I thought this was more appropriate hiQoq-wqZxg

(edit so that my post isn't as spammy as Psycho's :p)


Meanwhile, two Mail on Sunday photographers were viciously beaten and robbed by masked youths armed with crowbars and other makeshift weapons and reporters on the scene were threatened by looters in balaclavas.

The photographers said there was ‘total lawlessness’ in the area with the contents of shops strewn across the streets and the police unable to gain access.
One said: ‘It is utter carnage out there. We have been beaten up quite badly and had about £8,000 of equipment stolen. We were quite discreet but as soon as we got a camera out we were set on by youths with masks who were armed with crowbars.’

In a separate incident, a Mail on Sunday reporter was chased down a side street and struck on the back of the head with a rock.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riots-Double-decker-bus-set-ablaze-mob-violence-hits-London.html#ixzz1UL892ow9
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/07/article-2023254-0D55048800000578-342_964x597.jpg

[Vanguard1917]

“Britain is an oasis of calm” – Vince Cable, UK Government's Business Secretary, 5th August 2011

I thought that was funny.

[bricolage]

Everyone knows Big H personally did all the looting, rioting and burning.

[Invader Zim]

Are you lot nuts? The economic system has hit the cliff face and the caps have been racheting up the violence in all directions for years. If you don’t know that your job now is to attack the state and its supporters, you know nothing. Read some Lenin.

Kids like you are the reason nobody takes the left seriously anymore.

[brigadista]

THIS is the song..


W9mvTNh-plY





stop and search in tottenham has led to this together with the increasing community poverty

and deaths in police custody - most recent not on this list -

http://www.irr.org.uk/2002/november/ak000006.html

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

“the guy was highly involved in crime” ? What a lode of middle class shite. The entire state, press, parliament and banks is one big violent crime syndicate. Get your effing head on straight comrade.

Whilst it's probably true that this bloke was unlawfully killed, your attitude doesn't really help. Crime in a capitalist system isn't always crime against the Capitalist system and, as someone who lives local to Tottenham, I can tell you that often petty crime/violent gun crime is a menace to local communities.

But yeah, what happened after is pretty shocking eh...Tory rule, police on the rampage, riots. Would love to say that this is a surprise but i've been thinking for a while that this has been coming, especially in London. The police here are the worst i've ever seen.

[SHORAS]

Sounds like that Mark Duggan guy should've read some Lenin.:laugh:


I nearly choked on my beans on toast! :lol:

[Sasha]

THIS is the song..



or this one: M99nzyiS830

but lets keep it on topic :D

[bricolage]

'What actually ignited everything was a young female had approached the police standing line and she was set upon by police by their batons... the police line had actually charged towards her and started hitting her with the batons, subsequently it turned out she was only 16."
hc-e070buhA

[Blackscare]

Here's some american punk to add to the mix, solidarity from the US.

PScmRiaZhwk


Now read some Lenin.

[Sasha]

pics: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/gallery/2011/aug/07/tottenham-hit-by-riots-pictures?CMP=twt_gu#/?picture=377652701&index=6

[Sasha]

Some 42 people have been arrested, while 26 police officers were injured during the riots. Two remain in hospital. Police were unable to say whether there were fatalities overnight.

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live

[Sasha]

video report from a week ago about police harassment and the closing of 8 of the 13 youthclubs in the area, "there'll be riots": http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video

[Thirsty Crow]

I'm going to accept what bricolage posted as fact. I really don't have any reason not to.

And it really shows just how much is the repressive apparatus connected to the community in question, the fact that a 16 yr. old girl represented a threat worthy of collective baton treatment. Fucking disgusting.

It really shouldn't be a surprise that people jumped the pigs. Hell, you might even call it communal self-defense, and there's good reason to call it so!
What interests me are the prospects for organizing against the methods of policing the community in question.
Are there anyy organizations in Tottenham which do so? What attitude and what concrete organizational measures do socialist organizations take up?

[bcbm]

Whilst it's probably true that this bloke was unlawfully killed, your attitude doesn't really help. Crime in a capitalist system isn't always crime against the Capitalist system and, as someone who lives local to Tottenham, I can tell you that often petty crime/violent gun crime is a menace to local communities.

don't make excuses for the cops, eh? they're violent criminals on a much larger scale

[brigadista]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/tottenham-this-is-what-you-get-fire/


'There's no excuse for violence.' It's a familiar refrain. Even people who spend their lives campaigning against injustice are susceptible to blindly repeating it at the first whiff of a riot's rising smoke.
But stop to think for a moment before you condemn what's happening in Tottenham.
Violence, after all, bleeds from every pore of the capitalist state: from dire impoverishment and starvation through to police brutality, all the way up to war. But this kind of violence is routinely excused: it's either necessary to 'keep us safe', or it's just the way things are.
The kind of violence that we're told there's 'no excuse' for - the kind the newspapers focus on so angrily and relentlessly - is usually not even actual violence at all. It's setting a police car on fire - or, for that matter, smashing the windows of the Millbank Tower.
Property damage is not violence - it doesn't physically hurt anybody. And it doesn't come out of nowhere: time after time, it is a desperate response to the violence of the police.
Student Kit Withnail wrote about Millbank in Red Pepper: 'I had my head bashed in that day by police who charged us when I had my back to them. I spent the evening in hospital, bleeding from the head and vomiting.' And that was just one of hundreds of terrible stories.
Occasionally a cop grazes their knee or similar at a protest, and it's reported with the utmost seriousness as an 'officer injured'. But it's hardly a fair fight.

In Tottenham, as the media makes 'scenes of looting' its focus, the original act of horrific violence that this is all really about starts to get lost.
This is about a community enraged by the police killing a man named Mark Duggan. The media have been quick to call the 29-year-old a 'gangster', despite the utter lack of evidence for that assertion.
The known facts are that the father-of-four was shot twice in the face on Thursday by a police officer wielding a Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun. (Few have rushed to condemn that violence.)
Semone Wilson, Mark's girlfriend, said: 'I spoke to him at about 5pm and he asked me if I'd cook dinner. He said he spotted a police car following him.
'By 6.15 he had been gunned down. I kept phoning and phoning to find out where he was. He wasn't answering.
'I rushed down to where it happened. They let me through the police lines but they wouldn't let me see his body.'
Some witnesses report that Duggan was lying on the ground when he was shot.
Yesterday (Saturday), hundreds gathered to demand justice for Duggan, marching from the Broadwater Farm estate where he lived to Tottenham police station.
They asked for someone to come out and speak to them. A resident told the BBC that a 16-year-old girl approached police to ask questions - and they 'set upon her with batons'.
Then people got really angry. As the fires started, they were chanting a simple demand: 'We want answers'.
They deserve those answers. And those who tell them to be calm and wait for the IPCC inquiry might reflect on the record of that useless organisation.
Because this is not just about Mark Duggan. This is about Smiley Culture. This is about Ian Tomlinson, Jean Charles de Menezes, Harry Stanley and so many hundreds more...
Martin Luther King said 'a riot is the language of the unheard'. The people on the streets of Tottenham are not 'violent' criminals with some burning hatred of Aldi. They are part of a community that has been pushed to the edge by the very real violence of the police.
As one rioter, Jamal, told Channel 4 News: 'We're here to tell the police they can't abuse us, harass us. We won't put up with it. This is just the beginning, this is war, and this is what you get - fire.'

[scarletghoul]

And surprise surprise the blame is now being pinned on the black community, as if its a few 'negro hooligans' hell bent on causing trouble, when in fact its poor people of all ethnic groups taking a stand against police brutality

[Sasha]

[/URL]Street carnival cancelled by Hackney council as police fear Tottenham re-run

August 7, 2011 · 0 Comments

MINUTES before it was due to start from Dalston today Sun7Aug 2011 the Hackney One Carnival was cancelled by the council.
Acting on a claim Metropolitan Police claim that “intelligence” indicated there would be violent spill-over from the Tottenham riot (http://lovingdalston.co.uk/category/council/) early today, Hackney council felt it had to stop the annual street festival, disappointing hundreds of adults and children who had spent months making spectacular lorry displays and their costumes, and rehearsing dancing and music.
Revellers had agreed with the authorities a route from Ridley Road E8 2LH (http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/ridley-road-market-london) at noon, north up the high street-road and along Church Street to Clissold Park N4 2EY.
A suggestion by participants that it be contained within Gillett Square by the Vortex Jazz Club (http://www.vortexjazz.co.uk/), in Dalston N16, was rejected.
Hackney council issued a press statement to that the carnival would not take place. The spokesman would not admit to having cancelled the event, but, strangely, apologised.


source: [url]http://lovingdalston.co.uk/2011/08/street-carnival-cancelled-by-hackney-council-as-police-fear-tottenham-re-run/

[Arlekino]

And surprise surprise the blame is now being pinned on the black community, as if its a few 'negro hooligans' hell bent on causing trouble, when in fact its poor people of all ethnic groups taking a stand against police brutality

Kind of yes poor people stand against of situation but is that ok to set on fire people houses?
I am not standing on police side, the area are in poverty and made lot of public sector cuts, youth unemployment and so on. Another side what for do a lot of damage against people.

[Invader Zim]

And surprise surprise the blame is now being pinned on the black community, as if its a few 'negro hooligans' hell bent on causing trouble, when in fact its poor people of all ethnic groups taking a stand against police brutality

Well, don't you think that is a little premature? If it turns out that the guy did open fire at the cops then I wouldn't call it brutality. What were they supposed to do?

[Sasha]

“Meanwhile, two Mail on Sunday photographers were viciously beaten and robbed by masked youths armed with crowbars and other makeshift weapons and reporters on the scene were threatened by looters in balaclavas.
The photographers said there was ‘total lawlessness’ in the area with the contents of shops strewn across the streets and the police unable to gain access.
One said: ‘It is utter carnage out there. We have been beaten up quite badly and had about £8,000 of equipment stolen. We were quite discreet but as soon as we got a camera out we were set on by youths with masks who were armed with crowbars.’
In a separate incident, a Mail on Sunday reporter was chased down a side street and struck on the back of the head with a rock."

[Sasha]

"A highly satisfactory night’s work imo. Targets generally well selected from both a political & a practical economic point of view; everything apparently well executed & some imaginative new tactics, including removal of unsympathetic press & the use of fire extinguishers to create a ‘smoke-screen’ so that ppl could get close enough to brick da bizzies, (according to an eyewitness account in the Guardian comments). Oh, and a wicked mix of ehtnicities amongst the participants – the EDL ain’t gonna like this one little bit.
Anyone planning on going to bed early tonight?"


source: ian bones blog

[Sasha]

some more:

"What we are seeing, and what we will see, is that our class has no option left, but to riot, since there is no effective resistance from the trade union movement, to the worst assault on living standards since the Thirties. In Doncaster the council are making workers redundant and replacing them with free labour in the form of prisoners from the local nick- it’s a return to feudalism ffs, if not slavery…What did the fucking tories expect? They’re taking our jobs, hospitals, benefits, housing, services and rights from us, and they’re killing disabled people,..Social violence on a grand scale, topped off with police brutality.
Doubtless the hapless Plod will go blundering into the Farm tonight with raids, looking for the odd pair of looted trainers and new tellies, since they need to be seen to be in ‘control ‘-and it’ll kick off again, especially if they use cops from Surrey again, where the quotient of racist coppers is certainly much higher…"

is it okay to trash small businesses and rob individuals? of course not. is it understandable? yes. and does the blame lie on all the protesters as is always the song the media and the state are singing or lies the fault with the individual who pick the wrong target and the material reasons that compel him?

[bricolage]

Well, don't you think that is a little premature? If it turns out that the guy did open fire at the cops then I wouldn't call it brutality. What were they supposed to do?
1. I don't see why we should have to be advising the police what to do. My advice? Don't be cops.
2. The resentment towards police and police brutality extends far beyond, and even exists external to, the single event you are referring to. Was everyone burning cars, throwing rocks and looting shops doing so because of Mark Duggan? I really really doubt it.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think we should temper our enthusiasm for these riots. In fact I don't think we should support the act itself, after all, the people most affected by this riot are working class people whose houses have been burnt down/trashed.

What we should do, however, rather than taking an emotional stand either for or against the act (The riots), is try and explain the reasons for the riot: an undercurrent of police brutality and discrimination stretching back to the Brixton and Toxteth Riots of the 70s and 80, combined with cuts to youth services in the local area. One only needs to see some of the interviews with youth workers in the area to understand that this was a problem waiting to explode, with the death of Mark Duggan being merely a catalyst for the explosion of violence.

[brigadista]

shot in the face with a Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun whilst in a minicab? bit of an overreaction- if its true....

i m not surprised mail journos were chased down the street...

[Manic Impressive]

Kind of yes poor people stand against of situation but is that ok to set on fire people houses?
I am not standing on police side, the area are in poverty and made lot of public sector cuts, youth unemployment and so on. Another side what for do a lot of damage against people.
you can't expect reactions to be either logical or to abide by a strict code of principles, material conditions equal the outcome. It would be great if the working class could work like that but until we achieve class concious this is what you can expect.

[Manic Impressive]

And surprise surprise the blame is now being pinned on the black community, as if its a few 'negro hooligans' hell bent on causing trouble, when in fact its poor people of all ethnic groups taking a stand against police brutality
exactly, this will probably end up being called a race riot when the ethnicities of the people on the street are only reflected by the class of the residents of the area. Same thing as what happened to the Brixton riots in the 80's

[caramelpence]

I think we should temper our enthusiasm for these riots. In fact I don't think we should support the act itself, after all, the people most affected by this riot are working class people whose houses have been burnt down/trashed.

I haven't really gotten the impression that it's people's houses that have been burnt down or trashed. Most of the rioting in terms of burning and looting seems to have been directed at both police cars and large shops, like the retail park, rather than small businesses, let alone people's houses. In any case, your comment seems problematic in that you seem to be accepting that this riot has deep social roots like police racism and cutbacks in local services rather than being solely about the death of one particular individual, but at the same time you are saying that you do not think we should support or even identify with the way that the people in the area have chosen to respond to an accumulation of serious grievances.

If you accept that their grievances are legitimate, which I'm sure you do, then you should also accept that people in conditions of intense oppression often fight back in ways that are inchoate and spontaneous, and that, when they do so, and especially when they're faced with the repercussions in terms of arrests and heightened police presence, it's important for communists to support their activity. If you say that we shouldn't support a riot because it has some dimensions that we don't approve of, like small businesses being targeted or whatever, then you're basically saying that working people have to act in accordance with a set of expectations about how resistance and social unrest should take place before they receive our support, and that entails imposing an external standard on an outburst of popular anger.


exactly, this will probably end up being called a race riot when the ethnicities of the people on the street are only reflected by the class of the residents of the area. Same thing as what happened to the Brixton riots in the 80's

Actually, the dominant account from people there is that the riot has brought in the whole area and is multiethnic, in that the local Jewish community has been involved, for example, not to mention Asians and white people.

[Manic Impressive]

Actually, the dominant account from people there is that the riot has brought in the whole area and is multiethnic, in that the local Jewish community has been involved, for example, not to menion Asians and white people.
sorry I was unclear in what I meant. I meant that the Brixton riots were called race riots and blamed on black people when the reality was that the youth of the whole community was out based along class lines and not racial ones. That's why I drew the comparison

[Invader Zim]

1. I don't see why we should have to be advising the police what to do. My advice? Don't be cops.

A foolish and naive comment. All societies require some form of law enforcement. Who else is going to protect the public from dangerous gangsters weilding fire arms (assuming that is actually what happened)? You?

[caramelpence]

A foolish and naive comment. All societies require some form of law enforcement. Who else is going to protect the public from dangerous gangsters weilding fire arms? You?

Everyone, rather than an armed body of men that is separated from society as a whole and hardly ever held accountable for how its members behave. Bricolage is right - it isn't the job of communists to give advice on how we think "police-community relations" should be improved, just like it isn't our role to give advice on how we think governments should go about solving the capitalist economic crisis, or whether Osama bin Laden should have been put before the legal system rather than being shot extrajudicially. There are some questions and issues that we just shouldn't see as relevant or meaningful for us, given our commitment to revolution.

[Thirsty Crow]

A foolish and naive comment. All societies require some form of law enforcement. Who else is going to protect the public from dangerous gangsters weilding fire arms (assuming that is actually what happened)? You?
It's rather unbelievable how you consistently try to force the focus of the discussion from police brutality, the structural role of the repressive apparatuses within capitalist state apparatuses, and the underlying social problems leading to this eruption, to the apparent great danger of organized crime.

[Invader Zim]

Everyone, rather than an armed body of men that is separated from society as a whole and hardly ever held accountable for how its members behave.

"Everyone"? So what do you suggest, that the entire population be armed with uzis so that they can wind down their car windows and rake any sociopathic gangsters they come across?

And what happens when an unknown individual is murdering random individuals, a single victim every few weeks? You want the individuals chasing down that kind of individual to have neither the training or the resources adequate to identify, let alone locate and apprehend, the killer?

And hell, if a group of armed gangesters have barricaded themselves in a building, you can be the first one through the door; how does that sound?

[brigadista]

"Everyone"? So what do you suggest, that the entire population be armed with uzis so that they can wind down their car windows and rake any sociopathic gangsters they come across?

And what happens when an unknown individual is murdering random individuals, a single victim every few weeks? You want the individuals chasing down that kind of individual to have neither the training or the resources adequate to identify, let alone locate and apprehend, the killer?

And hell, if a group of armed gangesters have barricaded themselves in a building, you can be the first one through the door; how does that sound?

its not clear what happened - there are rumours that Mark Duggan was restrained on the ground when he was shot -

interesting that you choose to believe the statements of a police force such as the met - themselves recently at the highest levels being exposed as committing corrupt illegal acts-

[caramelpence]

"Everyone"? So what do you suggest, that the entire population be armed with uzis so that they can wind down their car windows and rake any sociopathic gangsters they come across?

And what happens when an unknown individual is murdering random individuals, a single victim every few weeks? You want the individuals chasing down that kind of individual to have neither the training or the resources adequate to identify, let alone locate and apprehend, the killer?

And hell, if a group of armed gangesters have barricaded themselves in a building, you can be the first one through the door; how does that sound?

Firstly, as Menocchio pointed out, your repeated talk of "gangsters" is not productive. I presume by gangsters you are talking about people who are heavily involved in organized crime, in which case it seems obvious to me that it would be almost impossible for organized crime to exist in a communist society because organized crime gangs derive their existence from producing commodities that have been disallowed or subject to regulation by the capitalist state, ranging from prostitution to counterfeit cigarette production. A communist society would be one without commodity production as a matter of definition, and it would also probably be one where certain use values that are currently associated with criminality have ceased to be valued, and on that basis your emphasis on gangsters only makes sense in the context of capitalist society. Secondly, I don't know why you dismiss justice being executed by everyone so flippantly. For Marx and Engels the defining characteristic of the state as such is that it is a set of institutions that is separated from society as a whole and elevated above society, and from that perspective the abolition of the state does not mean an end to all of the things that the state currently does, it means that the state and society are reintegrated to form an organic whole, bringing to an end the bifurcation of men into citizens on the one hand and bourgeois egoists on the other. I don't know what the performance of justice by all members of society would look like (or indeed whether we would still think in terms of concepts like justice, deviance, and discipline in a communist society) but I do know that I wouldn't want a communist society to involve the creation of specialized armed bodies of men like the police forces of capitalist societies. To accept such bodies would conflict with the notion of communism being a stateless or post-political society.

[Invader Zim]

It's rather unbelievable how you consistently try to force the focus of the discussion from police brutality, the structural role of the repressive apparatuses within capitalist state apparatuses, and the underlying social problems leading to this eruption, to the apparent great danger of organized crime.

Firstly, really? And how many times have I made that point before to make it not only a trend in discussion but something notable for its consistency?

Secondly, as noted, we have yet to be provided any concrete evidence to suggest that this is a case of unprovoked police brutality. If the focus of the dicussion is on that then it is premature.


and the underlying social problems leading to this eruption

And where, precisely, are the insightful, oracle-esque posts which have addressed these issues?

Fuck off.

[Invader Zim]

its not clear what happened - there are rumours that Mark Duggan was restrained on the ground when he was shot -

interesting that you choose to believe the statements of a police force such as the met - themselves recently at the highest levels being exposed as committing corrupt illegal acts-


Actually I don't believe anything. What I said was:

"Well, don't you think that is a little premature? If it turns out that the guy did open fire at the cops then I wouldn't call it brutality. What were they supposed to do? "

My emphasis.

Any more strawman arguments to be shot down?

[brigadista]

Actually I don't believe anything. What I said was:

"Well, don't you think that is a little premature? If it turns out that the guy did open fire at the cops then I wouldn't call it brutality. What were they supposed to do? "

My emphasis.

Any more strawman arguments to be shot down?

hardly a "strawman" given the record of the met - and dont you live in wales?

however,regardless of where you live you have a right to your opinion but i can tell you stop and search in tottenham is a daily occurrance..as it is in most london boroughs amongst poor communities and deaths in police custody recently is making people very angry

[Lobotomy]

Reading comments about this on news sites has made me furious. A lot of people think it's all about looting: "The riot had fuck all to do with Mark Duggan's death. The protest over that was earlier. This was a bunch of burglaries. People coming out of shops with boxloads of stolen goods, loading them into cars: not a riot, not a 'race issue', nothing to do with allegations of police brutality. Don't assume everybody involved had even remotely the same agenda."

Can any comrades in the area give us updates?

[Thirsty Crow]

Secondly, as noted, we have yet to be provided any concrete evidence to suggest that this is a case of unprovoked police brutality. It seems as if you're totally obssessed with big bad criminals and cannot bother to register a young woman severly beaten (which, it seems, functioned like the immediate trigger after people have demanded that the pigs disclose the information on that incident which you can't forget even for a minute):


'What actually ignited everything was a young female had approached the police standing line and she was set upon by police by their batons... the police line had actually charged towards her and started hitting her with the batons, subsequently it turned out she was only 16."
hc-e070buhA



Fuck off.
Now is that an instance of unprovoked verbal hostility? What got to you exactly, the fact that someone would oppose your viewpoint or the hyperbolic opening of the entire post (hyperbolic because I've gotten used to "communists" advocating all sorts of positions here, so it's not really unbelievable).

[brigadista]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live

[Garret]

Channel 4 reports that the gun Duggan had was not fired and that shots came from another officer.

Edit: Confirmed


Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.The Guardian's crime correspondent, Sandra Laville, reports:


The revelation will fuel the fury in Tottenham about the killing of Mark Duggan by armed officers. It also undermines suggestions that there was an exchange of fire between Duggan and the police before he died.
The bullet which was found lodged in the radio of one of the officers at the scene is still undergoing forensic tests. But reliable sources have said the first ballistics examinations suggested it was a police issue bullet.
These are very distinct as the Metropolitan Police uses dum dum type hollowed out bullets designed not to pass through an object.
The early suggestion from the IPCC was that the Met officers had returned fire after someone in the minicab opened fire. But the result of the ballistics early test suggests both shots fired came from the police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live#block-44

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I haven't really gotten the impression that it's people's houses that have been burnt down or trashed. Most of the rioting in terms of burning and looting seems to have been directed at both police cars and large shops, like the retail park, rather than small businesses, let alone people's houses. In any case, your comment seems problematic in that you seem to be accepting that this riot has deep social roots like police racism and cutbacks in local services rather than being solely about the death of one particular individual, but at the same time you are saying that you do not think we should support or even identify with the way that the people in the area have chosen to respond to an accumulation of serious grievances.

If you accept that their grievances are legitimate, which I'm sure you do, then you should also accept that people in conditions of intense oppression often fight back in ways that are inchoate and spontaneous, and that, when they do so, and especially when they're faced with the repercussions in terms of arrests and heightened police presence, it's important for communists to support their activity. If you say that we shouldn't support a riot because it has some dimensions that we don't approve of, like small businesses being targeted or whatever, then you're basically saying that working people have to act in accordance with a set of expectations about how resistance and social unrest should take place before they receive our support, and that entails imposing an external standard on an outburst of popular anger.



Actually, the dominant account from people there is that the riot has brought in the whole area and is multiethnic, in that the local Jewish community has been involved, for example, not to mention Asians and white people.

From the footage I saw today, it seemed as though there were quite a few people who had their houses and shops set alight or partially destroyed in the middle of the night, which on any level is unacceptable.

Also I think that the thing re: jewish people was that they were on the initial protest, but that they didn't then go on to participate in the riot. But yeah, from what I saw on the tv the riots were multi-ethnic, which doesn't surprise me in a place where many Black British, White British, Turkish/Greek/Cypriot and others are joined by the fact of their relative poverty.

I do identify that people are fighting back against the cuts to their community and the obvious police brutality that has occurred, but I don't view rioting as progressive in any way. It is an expression of legitimate anger, granted, but the actual act is very counter-productive if it is not targeted.

Of course, I do understand (and having lived in the locality my entire life, very much so) that there is little class or political consciousness amongst the people who are unhappy with their current living situation, which is probably why their (fairly spontaneous, it seems) response was so stupid. I imagine a more class/political conscious community might have organised a more productive protest.

So, whilst I understand the legitimate grievances of the people, I don't think we can be seen to support un-targeted riots that cause a fair amount of collateral damage in an already deprived area.

[Matty_UK]

Looks like it's kicking off in Enfield now, a police car has been trashed.

http://yfrog.com/gy5n1vfj

Rumours about Brixton too but so far unconfirmed. Could wind up as self-fulfilling rumours though, the police are out in force and there's thousands of people on the streets for some festival. I'd say there's a fairly high chance of things kicking off in Brixton tonight.

[bricolage]

A foolish and naive comment. All societies require some form of law enforcement. Who else is going to protect the public from dangerous gangsters weilding fire arms (assuming that is actually what happened)? You?
That’s not the point though. We aren’t talking about ‘all societies’ or hypothetical ways in which ‘dangerous gangsters weilding fire arms’ will be dealt with in future communist communities, we are talking about present day police forces under present day conditions of capital. As caramelpence says it’s not the place of supposed pro-revolutionary militants to give advice on the functioning of capitalist means of control but rather to position ourselves alongside the bursts of social revolt that occur against them. What do you propose as an alternative? Unionisation drives amongst the ‘workers in uniform’? Entryism into the met? Cups of tea and discussions of social peace? Quite possibly Mark Duggan fired at the police and was one of many ‘dangerous gangsters weilding fire arms’, in dealing with the subsequent rioting this is completely irrelevant.

[bricolage]

Rumours about Brixton too but so far unconfirmed. Could wind up as self-fulfilling rumours though, the police are out in force and there's thousands of people on the streets for some festival. I'd say there's a fairly high chance of things kicking off in Brixton tonight.
Just got back from Brixton splash, a lot of tension especially on coldharbour lane. First when someone was meant to have pulled out a gun, second when the cops hit someone. A lot of police were running down towards the estate by somerleyton road, but that being said there weren't many of them about probably in the hope of not provoking the situation. London is simmering right now and I swear it could catch on fire at any moment.

[bricolage]

And I tell you what it's only three weeks til carnival, lord.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Quote, unquote:

Oh, how painful I found all this joy! I was at the same time satisfied and vexed, I said so much the better! and so much the worse! I can understand the people taking the law into its own hands...but how can it fail today to be cruel? - Nicolas [soon to be Gracchus] Babeuf, on witnessing street violence against aristocrats, July, 1789

[Invader Zim]

Now is that an instance of unprovoked verbal hostility? What got to you exactly, the fact that someone would oppose your viewpoint or the hyperbolic opening of the entire post (hyperbolic because I've gotten used to "communists" advocating all sorts of positions here, so it's not really unbelievable).

It might be the fact that you're actling like an insufferable prick and failed to amke any point worth reading, and thus also a time waster as well as an insufferable prick.


It seems as if you're totally obssessed with big bad criminals and cannot bother to register a young woman severly beaten (which, it seems, functioned like the immediate trigger after people have demanded that the pigs disclose the information on that incident which you can't forget even for a minute):

Except that wasn't what was being talked about in the post I replied to, unlike you I try to make posts relevent to those individuals with an IQ numerically higher than their wasteline. Pay attention or, better yet, take my earlier advice and fuck off.

[Sasha]

zim, verbal for flaming

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Channel 4 reports that the gun Duggan had was not fired and that shots came from another officer.

Edit: Confirmed


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live#block-44

Thanks a lot for posting this! I was wondering about the possibility that those bumbling incompetents had managed to shoot one of their own, especially considering the circumstances.

If reports that Duggan was on the ground when he was shot are confirmed, then it's even worse for the cops.

[Thirsty Crow]

So, let's see how does Invader Zim respond after it has been shown that not only did the police assault the woman in question, but also executed the man in question:


It might be the fact that your an insufferable prick and failed to amke any point worth reading, and thus also a time waster as well as an insufferable prick.I guess I shoul be infracted, or better yet, banned.

But shall we assess your contributions?

1) declaring that an assessment of police brutality depnds on whether the man pulled the gun first.

2) pronouncing how "naive" it is claiming that it is not communists' "job" to tell the police how to police communities and how to interact with communities

3) after going nuts when people called out your bullshit, you respond with more bullshit and keep you mouth shut with regard to the topic at hand.




Except that wasn't what was being talked about in the post I replied to, unlike you I try to make posts relevent to those individuals with an IQ numerically higher than their wasteline. Pay attention or, better yet, take my earlier advice and fuck off.

Yeah, sure, what was being talked about was how communists do not concern themselves with the management of the represseive apparatus, in neither of its dimensions. So wanna tell me how is that naive, or maybe you haven't been paying attention since in no way did bricolage imply that law enforcement or a corresponding social phenomenon would presumably cease to exist?
And the fact that you failed to comment on what was effectively the spark to ignite violence, the assault on the woman, sure as hell indicates that your focus solely lies upon the alleged criminality surrounding the riots.

In other words, you're full of it. Now take your own advice and don't distract the discussion with your juvenile angst.

[Sasha]

Morale among the police officers dealing with this incident, and within the Police Service as a whole, is at its lowest level ever due to the constant attacks on them by the home secretary and the government in the form of the Winsor and Hutton reviews into police pay and conditions.
Despite the officers feeling let down by their political leaders, they still acted with extreme bravery and professionalism in the face of horrific violence shown towards them while trying to protect the community and the buildings in the local area.

poor coppers...

also


The girl who reportedly was involved in causing the violence between police and protesters may have thrown a stone at police.One man "holed up in a church 10 metres away from the Tottenham riot". He told the Guardian that he saw the girl "throw some card and something else, maybe a stone, at the original riot police line".
He said the girl was then "pounded by 15 riot shields". He said that the police "launched into her with startling force using both batons and shields. She went down on the floor but once she managed to get up she was hit again before being half-dragged away by her friend."
He added: "After she was removed there were a few minutes of peace and then lots of glass bottles started being thrown, we could hear them."
Bailey had been attending an event at the church, which he said is opposite the police station in Tottenham.
"I have never been so scared and intrigued," he said. "On the way out we were mere streets away from the mass fire, it was like 25 meters high and seemed to be like a mile wide."


so if an 16 year old girl throws an stone (if it was a stone and not an teddybear or an candle or something she wanted to put down for the victim) and 15 cops beat her with their shields and the shit hits the fan she is the one who "caused" the riot? charming

[brigadista]

Thanks a lot for posting this! I was wondering about the possibility that those bumbling incompetents had managed to shoot one of their own, especially considering the circumstances.

If reports that Duggan was on the ground when he was shot are confirmed, then it's even worse for the cops.

given the sanctions on police as a result of recent murders by the police - i doubt very much will happen to them
THe IPCC on radio denying the above....

[RED DAVE]

Well, don't you think that is a little premature? If it turns out that the guy did open fire at the cops then I wouldn't call it brutality. What were they supposed to do?Turn their guns on themselves!

RED DAVE

[Garret]

^ Now that's an idea ^


Thanks a lot for posting this! I was wondering about the possibility that those bumbling incompetents had managed to shoot one of their own, especially considering the circumstances.

If reports that Duggan was on the ground when he was shot are confirmed, then it's even worse for the cops.
If this is correct there was no gunfight:


The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use. It is likely to fuel anger on the streets of Tottenham and elsewhere in London if it provides evidence that officers were not under attack at the time they opened fire on Duggan.http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns?CMP=twt_gu

Hearing the police are beating people up in Enfield too...

[Tifosi]

Clashes in Enfield right now (http://www.london24.com/news/crime/tottenham_riot_new_clashes_in_enfield_between_mob_ and_police_reports_1_986980). Large amounts of cops in riot gear and on horseback.

And from here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687680/Capital-sees-second-night-of-clashes.html)


Clashes broke out between police and rioters in Enfield, north London, tonight, in a second night of violence in the capital.

Dozens of riot police officers, some with dogs and batons, charged at a group of more than 100 youths after the windows of at least four shops were smashed, including a jewellery store.

Police were called to the town centre at around 6:30pm after youths attacked police cars, while high street shops came under attack from bricks and slabs of concrete, according to witness reports.

http://pix0.london.indymedia.org/system/photo/2011/08/07/7636/483123.jpg

[Tim Finnegan]

Thanks a lot for posting this! I was wondering about the possibility that those bumbling incompetents had managed to shoot one of their own, especially considering the circumstances.
That just about sums up the UK, doesn't it? We can't even do bloody fascism properly. :rolleyes:

[o well this is ok I guess]

hay gaiz is this a Lenin thread

[black magick hustla]

Well, don't you think that is a little premature? If it turns out that the guy did open fire at the cops then I wouldn't call it brutality. What were they supposed to do?

crawl and die

[bricolage]

I don't think anything is happening in Brixton, the few clashes that happened during the splash are being reported more heavily due to the context of last night but the pictures going around are from Enfield not south of the river.
EDIT: Although morrissey is playing Brixton tonight so maybe people will riot when they realise 90% of the show is his solo material.

[brigadista]

yes all happening in enfield and also some thing in walthamstow

[Manic Impressive]

tottenham is in the borough of enfield right?

[Bitter Ashes]

oh... yeah. This is why I don't leave DIY. lol

[bricolage]

tottenham is in the borough of enfield right?
nah haringey.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Not sure that there is any logical explanation for what is happening in Enfield.

Really, before this gets out of hand and becomes a mass act of mindless criminality, there needs to be some cause to be rallied round and some organsiation injected into these riots, otherwise they will actually get us (as usual) tagged with the fallout from this.

The riots are moving in a counter-productive direction, politically and strategically.

[Manic Impressive]

nah haringey.
thanks

for those that need a reference. Enfield in the north in yellow and Haringey just below it in brown. I believe Tottenham is near the border of Haringey and Enfield. I need a map as well as I'm from south of the river ;)
http://www.londonparents.net/images/maplondonboroughs3.gif

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Perilously close to me.

This shit could spread like wildfire with proper organisation and enunciation of beliefs, causes etc.

Is anybody at work on this?

[Rusty Shackleford]

5 miles away in enfield there are people out in the streets tonight.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jcwDJBzoRDIga1cYXcUHqO_TGu1w?docId=f978e0097 f89439fa4ebe47a72f2d4e2


Now, im thousands of miles away but this is pretty telling from the article




"Others weren't so sure, suggesting that the riots had exposed incipient tensions at a time of sharp public sector cutbacks and economic uncertainty."

i hope this spreads to more districts.

Tottenham and Enfield so far.


right now, the shooting of a man by the police was the spark that has lit and evergrowing, but blunt, beginnings of an uprising. and by blunt i mean there is no direction. if there is direction, there is power. maybe im talking out of my ass. maybe im excited. i feel sorry for the family of the victim though.

[bricolage]

Not sure that there is any logical explanation for what is happening in Enfield.
young people with no jobs, sick of being pushed around by the police and affected by events that happened only a few miles away?

[Manic Impressive]

Not sure that there is any logical explanation for what is happening in Enfield.
There's a logical explanation for it. But the reaction is not a logical or a class concious response.


Really, before this gets out of hand and becomes a mass act of mindless criminality, there needs to be some cause to be rallied round and some organsiation injected into these riots, otherwise they will actually get us (as usual) tagged with the fallout from this.
"mindless criminality" are you trying for a job at the daily mail?
If I were drunk, which I am, I would say that sounds like a very socially middle class statement. We should recognize that the natural reaction to the brutality of capitalism is to respond in kind, with violence and destruction. It may not be what we want, but wanting perfection from the oppressed is pretty utopian in my opinion.


The riots are moving in a counter-productive direction, politically and strategically.
were you one of the ones saying the same thing about the black bloc? Get this in perspective this is a working class action, not led by communists but a natural reaction to the oppression felt by the working class. As communists our job should be to help the people rioting realise why they are rioting.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

young people with no jobs, sick of being pushed around by the police and affected by events that happened only a few miles away?

Doubtful. Enfield isn't exactly a hotbed of political consciousness. Judging from my stream on twitter, there are a lot of people tagging onto the looting and so on.

[Tim Finnegan]

Not sure that there is any logical explanation for what is happening in Enfield.
http://a.yfrog.com/img739/5030/67zlt.jpg

Would be the obvious.

[Manic Impressive]

Doubtful. Enfield isn't exactly a hotbed of political consciousness. Judging from my stream on twitter, there are a lot of people tagging onto the looting and so on.
people don't need political or class conciousness to riot they just need a spark. Hopefully the events can be used to raise class conciousness

[Manic Impressive]

http://a.yfrog.com/img739/5030/67zlt.jpg

Would be the obvious.
loving the Bagpuss on the dashboard :laugh:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The Lives Of Other is showing on BBC2 now. How topical.:)

[Tifosi]

Doubtful. Enfield isn't exactly a hotbed of political consciousness.

So? That doesn't stop people from getting pissed off with the amount of shit they have to take day in, day out.

[bricolage]

Doubtful. Enfield isn't exactly a hotbed of political consciousness. Judging from my stream on twitter, there are a lot of people tagging onto the looting and so on.
Is Tottenham?

[Sasha]

http://a.yfrog.com/img739/5030/67zlt.jpg


i would be so tempted to floor it

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Moreso, given their previous experiences with the police.

[bricolage]

Moreso, given their previous experiences with the police.
which hardly amounts to 'a hotbed of political consciousness'.

[Threetune]

Perilously close to me.

This shit could spread like wildfire with proper organisation and enunciation of beliefs, causes etc.

Is anybody at work on this?

Thanks for your contribution, put down the Bat Man comics that you don’t understand and read some Lenin, it will calm you down.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Is that sort of off-topic flaming really necessary, comrade?:rolleyes:

[bricolage]

updates here; http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/breaking-riots-in-enfield-edmonton-brixton/

[Sasha]

Thanks for your contribution, put down the Bat Man comics that you don’t understand and read some Lenin, it will calm you down.

quit flaming, last warning or its infraction time

[Tim Finnegan]

Thanks for your contribution, put down the Bat Man comics that you don’t understand and read some Lenin, it will calm you down.
I'm beginning to suspect that "read some Lenin" is just Threetune's idiosyncratic euphemism for smoking weed.

[Ose]

For those of you doubting that Tottenham is a 'hotbed of class consciousness': What do you mean by that? If you mean knowledge that capitalism is the problem and socialism is the solution, then the champagne socialists of Islington probably have more of a claim to it. On the other hand, if you're talking about people's first-hand knowledge of their own material disadvantage (in this case getting fucked by the police), then that's been expressed pretty clearly in Tottenham.

[scarletghoul]

YX9qZVsMQP8
heres the event referred to earlier in the thread.

[scarletghoul]

Riots in Enfield and Brixton tonight. seems to be pretty severe from the sounds of things

[Welshy]

Riots in Enfield and Brixton tonight. seems to be pretty severe from the sounds of things

Are they focused at the police or is there a lot of looting or both or something different?

[black magick hustla]

Doubtful. Enfield isn't exactly a hotbed of political consciousness. Judging from my stream on twitter, there are a lot of people tagging onto the looting and so on.

"consciousness" as leftists imagine doesn't exist. its sheer objectivity pushing people against the cops and the bosses. "consciousness" when used by leftist amount to how many ppl are supporters of the swp or some other left racket.

[Tim Finnegan]

"consciousness" as leftists imagine doesn't exist. its sheer objectivity pushing people against the cops and the bosses. "consciousness" when used by leftist amount to how many ppl are supporters of the swp or some other left racket.
Read some Luxemburg, if you'll permit me a variation on a theme. :p

[Luís Henrique]

Cameron says that the riots in Tottenham are "unacceptable".

Time that the riots in Tottenham (and elsewhere, hopefully) make it clear that Cameron and his government are unacceptable, either.

Luís Henrique

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

"consciousness" as leftists imagine doesn't exist. its sheer objectivity pushing people against the cops and the bosses. "consciousness" when used by leftist amount to how many ppl are supporters of the swp or some other left racket.

Of course it does.

There's a very real difference between mindless rioting by a largely working class populace, as we saw last night, and targeted protests around a working class cause, in terms of who has consciousness.

Class consciousness often arises out of economic struggles, whereby people are defending their economic situation e.g. jobs, minimum level of wage and so on. Political consciousness follows on when people move from defending themselves against falling standards of living and inequality, to moving towards Socialism as the political answer. I.e. when the struggle becomes, in the eyes of said workers, the political rather than just the economic.

The past two nights, when compared with historical strike movements and protests in Britain and other countries, has provided evidence of the difference between class conscious and non-conscious action.

[caramelpence]

Of course it does.

There's a very real difference between mindless rioting by a largely working class populace, as we saw last night, and targeted protests around a working class cause, in terms of who has consciousness.

Class consciousness often arises out of economic struggles, whereby people are defending their economic situation e.g. jobs, minimum level of wage and so on. Political consciousness follows on when people move from defending themselves against falling standards of living and inequality, to moving towards Socialism as the political answer. I.e. when the struggle becomes, in the eyes of said workers, the political rather than just the economic.

The past two nights, when compared with historical strike movements and protests in Britain and other countries, has provided evidence of the difference between class conscious and non-conscious action.

With respect, this is a complete abstraction. When people move into direct struggle against their oppression, they almost always do so in very inchoate ways without a definite objective in mind. This is true not only of young working class men and women rioting in inner-city areas, it has also historically been true in other contexts as well, such as peasant revolts, for example, both in medieval Britain and more recently in underdeveloped societies like China. What matters is that it is through these initial forms of resistance, with all the contradictions, shortcomings, and complexities they embody, that people gain the confidence and lessons necessary to carry out more organized and focused forms of political activity in the future. This is part of what Luxemburg meant in her recognition that "the unconscious comes before the conscious" - she was emphasizing that it is the spontaneous activity of the class that determines the conditions in which revolutionaries should operate, rather than it being possible to impose a pre-determined plan of action on the class.

It's also worth pointing out that although the riots in this instance do not seem to have a common or accepted goal as such, there is no necessary contradiction between the riot as a form of activity and a focus on a specific political objectivity, and that riots have often been one of the most effective ways of extracting particular compromises. The obvious example in the British context is the Poll Tax Riots, where it was precisely through mass resistance to the police that the working class was able to inflict a key blow on the Thatcher government.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm actually going to go back to that "read some Luxemburg" comment, because it's probably more true than I meant at the time. I gave her The Mass Strike another read today in light of last nights events, paying particular attention to her discussion of the 1905 Revolution in the Russian Empire, and what El Granma is saying is pretty evident in her discussion. Those struggles where concious class struggles, however crudely conceptualised their class element may have been at times, with concious economic and political direction (if not actually long-term programs), rather than just being mass expressions of frustration against a corrupt state- however undoubtedly legitimate that would have been- and not only that, but struggles which emerged in a country in which the labour and socialist movements were very undeveloped, and, paraphrasing Luxemburg, in no other country was the concept such a radical action as the mass strike, let alone a revolutionary mass strike, discussed so little even on the eve of its outbreak. (In fact, as has been noted since, even with all her enthusiasm she fails to give the Russian workers the full credit that they were due, passing over the soviets as nothing more than incidental.) I think that Caramelpence is right to remind us of Luxemburg's observation that the unconcious precedes the concious, but, at the same time, I don't think that can be used to excuse, for want of a better word, the unconscious, to permit us to read a level of class struggle into an event which is not actually there. These riots have to be recognised as a product and an express of class struggle, and as Caramelpence sense an expression of the terrain in which were are operating, but not as something that will have great direct political consequences in themselves. The real consequences, I think, will be the ideological dents that they put in the state, which will give the working class a bit more room to flex its intellectual muscles, and begin to recollect some sense of itself.

[bcbm]

Of course it does.

how?


There's a very real difference between mindless rioting by a largely working class populace, as we saw last night, and targeted protests around a working class cause, in terms of who has consciousness.

we live in a new era where the old forms of 'working class resistance' hold little ground. i think in this new terrain an expression of riotous anger that is spreading across many municipalities says more than what leftists typically look to as 'signifiers' of working class struggle


Class consciousness often arises out of economic struggles, whereby people are defending their economihttp://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/editor/menupop.gifc situation e.g. jobs, minimum level of wage and so on. Political consciousness follows on when people move from defending themselves against falling standards of living and inequality, to moving towards Socialism as the political answer. I.e. when the struggle becomes, in the eyes of said workers, the political rather than just the economic.

what do you think these riots are about?


The past two nights, when compared with historical strike movements and protests in Britain and other countries, has provided evidence of the difference between class conscious and non-conscious action.

they show a new development in our view of class struggle.

[Jimmie Higgins]

we live in a new era where the old forms of 'working class resistance' hold little ground. i think in this new terrain an expression of riotous anger that is spreading across many municipalities says more than what leftists typically look to as 'signifiers' of working class struggle I'm not sure what you are arguing here in terms of a "new era". IF you mean we shouldn't count the numbers of strikes to try and get a sense of where people's consciousness and anger is at (due to factors like bureaucratic control of the labor unions and little push from below and coming out of an era of class defeats and demoralization) then yes, I think that is very valid. But - at least here in the US - spontaneous riots and flare-ups have been much more common than large organized and militant strikes for a generation or more, so I don't see how this is different.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm actually going to go back to that "read some Luxemburg" comment, because it's probably more true than I meant at the time. I gave her The Mass Strike another read today in light of last nights events, paying particular attention to her discussion of the 1905 Revolution in the Russian Empire, and what El Granma is saying is pretty evident in her discussion. Those struggles where concious class struggles, however crudely conceptualised their class element may have been at times, with concious economic and political direction (if not actually long-term programs), rather than just being mass expressions of frustration against a corrupt state- however undoubtedly legitimate that would have been- and not only that, but struggles which emerged in a country in which the labour and socialist movements were very undeveloped, and, paraphrasing Luxemburg, in no other country was the concept such a radical action as the mass strike, let alone a revolutionary mass strike, discussed even on the eve of its outbreak. (In fact, as has been noted since, even with all her enthusiasm she fails to give the Russian workers the full credit that they were due, passing over the soviets as nothing more than incidental.) I think that Caramelpence is right to remind us of Luxemburg's observation that the unconcious precedes the concious, but, at the same time, I don't think that can be used to excuse, for want of a better word, the unconscious, to permit us to read a level of class struggle into an event which is not actually there. These riots have to be recognised as a product and an express of class struggle, and as Caramelpence sense an expression of the terrain in which were are operating, but not as something that will have great direct political consequences in themselves. The real consequences, I think, will be the ideological dents that they put in the state, which will give the working class a bit more room to flex its intellectual muscles, and begin to recollect some sense of itself.

Ha, yeah, i've been reading The Mass Strike too recently. Stop with the political copying already!:laugh:

But yeah, there is a great distinction between an act carried out by workers, and a class action. It does not necessarily follow that the former is an act, whose participants are hugely conscious of the act being one of class.

Obviously, to an extent it is a class action, especially in Tottenham with their unique history with the Police on the Broadwater Farm Estate. But really, it's difficult to see that people in Shephard's Bush, Enfield etc. had any particular cause for rioting.

As i've already said, the best thing that could happen would be to unite this action with the political struggle, by actually placing coherent demands on the police and the government. If they ransacked police headquarters all over London and demanded more than a pathetic IPCC inquiry, then that'd make far more sense and show a hunger for political struggle.

But honestly, knowing what many of the people involved in the rioting in Enfield are like, as it's near enough on my doorstep, I doubt that there was a political, economic or self-defence motive behind their wildcat actions.

[Thirsty Crow]

But honestly, knowing what many of the people involved in the rioting in Enfield are like, as it's near enough on my doorstep, I doubt that there was a political, economic or self-defence motive behind their wildcat actions.
What are they like?
It's an honest question and I'm genuinely interested in why do you reject these motives.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

With respect, this is a complete abstraction. When people move into direct struggle against their oppression, they almost always do so in very inchoate ways without a definite objective in mind. This is true not only of young working class men and women rioting in inner-city areas, it has also historically been true in other contexts as well, such as peasant revolts, for example, both in medieval Britain and more recently in underdeveloped societies like China. What matters is that it is through these initial forms of resistance, with all the contradictions, shortcomings, and complexities they embody, that people gain the confidence and lessons necessary to carry out more organized and focused forms of political activity in the future. This is part of what Luxemburg meant in her recognition that "the unconscious comes before the conscious" - she was emphasizing that it is the spontaneous activity of the class that determines the conditions in which revolutionaries should operate, rather than it being possible to impose a pre-determined plan of action on the class.

It's also worth pointing out that although the riots in this instance do not seem to have a common or accepted goal as such, there is no necessary contradiction between the riot as a form of activity and a focus on a specific political objectivity, and that riots have often been one of the most effective ways of extracting particular compromises. The obvious example in the British context is the Poll Tax Riots, where it was precisely through mass resistance to the police that the working class was able to inflict a key blow on the Thatcher government.

I don't disagree with any of your first paragraph, at all.

With regards to your Poll Tax Riots analogy, there is an important distinction. That was over a very specific policy, obviously, and was in many ways a defensive move. I'm sure we all remember the iconic picture of that old bloke with the 'I exist on £50 per week, how can I pay the poll tax' sign.

The issue here is not that the people aren't perfect conceptions of politically conscious workers, it's that I find it problematic to attach any political epithet to their actions, as I don't believe they were intended as such. Perhaps you're right in your Luxemburg quote and the unconscious will turn into the conscious, but I highly doubt this will happen without the attachment of at least some cause to the actions, which was missing in the non-Tottenham protests.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

What are they like?
It's an honest question and I'm genuinely interested in why do you reject these motives.

I don't want to generalise, there are obviously different types of people everywhere you go.

On balance, though, the types of kids that i've seen that are rioting are generally quite feral, anti-social anyway. Of course, there is a socio-economic reason for this and I don't doubt it. I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, many of the people rioting in Enfield, Walthamstow etc., are a million miles away from ever being - or being interested in - being class or politically conscious.

Halfway to Lumpen might be a better description, though again, i'm sure there are both better and worse elements, as there are in every community.

[Sun Wukong]

I don't want to generalise, there are obviously different types of people everywhere you go.

On balance, though, the types of kids that i've seen that are rioting are generally quite feral, anti-social anyway. Of course, there is a socio-economic reason for this and I don't doubt it. I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, many of the people rioting in Enfield, Walthamstow etc., are a million miles away from ever being - or being interested in - being class or politically conscious.

Halfway to Lumpen might be a better description, though again, i'm sure there are both better and worse elements, as there are in every community.

I largely agree with this assessment, though I'd suggest you don't use the word 'feral': "feral youth" has become the media's go-to characterisation of poor minorities and the phrase us oppressive and reactionary. Just a small thing though not having a go at you.

I was on the streets of Brixton last night and it was really quite unpleasant. I shed no tears for the destruction of Currys (a big electrical goods store that got cleaned out) but there were also several small local shops that got done over and I saw people attacked/robbed quite badly by a group of kids, a car stuck in traffic had a rock thrown at it and some started moving on me so I split. Now, there are perfectly good material reasons for that behaviour and I'm not being all 'gang culture!!' about it but there certainly were people taking advantage of the lawlessness - cops didn't turn up for about 3 hours - to commit acts that went way beyond what I can justify as a revolutionary communist, and it was a real shame and actually the only time I've ever felt unsafe in my own area.

I disagree with posters who have said rioting is 'wrong' or strategically bad or whatever and depending on the context looting can absolutely be revolutionary. But, teenage lumpen stealing hi def TVs does not a revolutionary act make.

I only got about 3 hours sleep so these thoughts are preliminary and stress ridden but if anyone has questions about b-town last night feel free to ask

[Cencus]

Who are the rioters? They are kids, the local youth. Angry fucked off youth who saw an oppertunity to even the score with the filth a bit and get some free gear.


Expecting a bunch of teenagers from the less well off estates with their shit schools, shit facilities, and shit prospects to spontaniously become the hot bed of class conciousness is laughable. How many folks posting on here are from those sort of areas in that age range? Those of you that are older think back to your teenage years and try to remember how many class conscious folks of your age you knew and how much constructive input you had from the left in your lives.

Personally I grew up in a dormitary village, had a decent education and the only time I saw anything relating to the left was placards at demos I saw on the news, never read any communist/anarchist literature (there might of been some in the school library but I avoided that like the plague) and had absolutely no contact with any leftist party until I left that town to move to the city.

We are failing to reach these folks who given a bit of time and attention could be won to our cause.

[Invader Zim]

hardly a "strawman" given the record of the met - and dont you live in wales?

however,regardless of where you live you have a right to your opinion but i can tell you stop and search in tottenham is a daily occurrance..as it is in most london boroughs amongst poor communities and deaths in police custody recently is making people very angry

I have no doubt, and I have no doubt that those kinds of policies, and obvious corruption, by the Met is what lies at the heart of this.


let's see how does Invader Zim respond after it has been shown that not only did the police assault the woman in question, but also executed the man in question

Well that's the point, it hasn't been shown (regarding the latter), there is a boat load of conflicting eyewitness reports and nothing more. My point has never been to deny it or accept it one way or another, but to point out that as yet the full facts are not in. You know, hense the reason why I said that judgement at this stage was premature.

But you keep running with your entirely dishonest strawman arguments.:)


1) declaring that an assessment of police brutality depnds on whether the man pulled the gun first.
This is actually misrepresentative. See what I said about dishonest strawman arguments above. There is a difference between a cop shooting a guy with a gun, who has just shot someone (and therefore a risk of shooting someone else), and executing a disarmed individual. But none of that was my point, my point was that as yet you don't actually know what happened so it is premature to pass judgement before all the facts are in.



2) pronouncing how "naive" it is claiming that it is not communists' "job" to tell the police how to police communities and how to interact with communities

But again, that wasn't what was said. What was said was that the advice is not to be cops, the underlying assumption being that they are not a necessary, even in a post revolutionary society - sentiments confirmed later by others.




3) after going nuts when people called out your bullshit, you respond with more bullshit and keep you mouth shut with regard to the topic at hand.

Sorry, but tell you what I think of you and telling you to fuck off is not going "nuts", it was a measured responce to your dishonest horseshit.



And the fact that you failed to comment on what was effectively the spark to ignite violence, the assault on the woman, sure as hell indicates that your focus solely lies upon the alleged criminality surrounding the riots.

Given that I haven't made any comment regarding the criminality, or any other moral or ethical aspect, of the riots your pathetic attempt at deductive logic is rendered even more pitifull.

[Bitter Ashes]

Christ. Look. They've accepted that legal (capitalist) means get them nowhere and taken matters into their own hands. Make whatever you like of this, but the aftermath will be a search for alterntives.

[Sasha]

some worthwhile stuff from the guardian live feed:


2.40pm: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-66) Wondering what our London blogger, Dave Hill, makes of the rioting and looting? Here are five reflections on recent events (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2011/aug/08/things-i-believe-about-london-riots). Worth a read - especially no 2:

Rioting is often described as 'mindless'. The problem is, it's not. I know why the word is used: it expresses our incredulity and sometimes points to the rioting's counter-productiveness … But people who riot do have minds, and in these lie the reasons for their rioting.
Those reasons vary, and may be various. They will be bad reasons, even when miserably explicable. But reasons, they are. Call them motives, if you prefer. These may be greed, hatred, a craving for status, for battle and excitement and for an antisocial sort of liberty. Some deep, possibly incoherent rage against authority and a safer, kinder more prosperous world they can't join might be part of this story too. None of this is evidence of mindlessness, and to declare it so is to hide from reality.



3.30pm: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-74) What do the Tottenham riots have in common with the Brixton riots 30 years ago and civil rights-era riots in the US? Roland Nicholson, Jr, who has posted below, explains (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog?commentpage=):



As a student in London in 1981, I witnessed riots which erupted in the largely West Indian community of Brixton. I had lived through race riots in Baltimore following the assassination of Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.
While the differences amazed me the similarities were not lost on me either. There was an incident. There were a great many rumours. Groups of idle boys and youg men, who were already on hand began roaming in a menacing fashion. A liquor or appliance store window was broken and other members of the community joined the crowd usually to loot, and then the police responded.
The crime was repeated in neighbourhood after neighbourhood, with the result that the police were quickly overwhelmed and the crowds soon realised that the chances of anyone being arrested for looting were quite remote. A small group began setting fires to further overwhelm the authorities.
This is a recipe for disaster. However in both Brixton and Baltimore and now in Tottenham the riots were aided because of of a general feeling that whatever economic cycle the UK or the US were experiencing, black people were either not benefiting from it or were suffering disproportionately.
Anyone who was not aware of this had simply not seen a good many neighbourhoods in Baltimore, Brixton or Tottenham. When members of minority groups suffer the kind of economic plight that recently led to George Soros and Michael Bloomberg calling for a $130 million fund to lift young Black and Hispanic men in New York out of a cycle crime, under education and unemployment, there clearly is a problem. Not to see the problem marginalises the people and renders them invisible. What is occurring in Tottenham today shows that they clearly are not.



2.53pm: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-69) My colleague Josh Halliday has just come across this via Facebook. It was sent to a friend on BBM on Sunday morning:

I have just been informed that it may … all kick off again tonight around the wood green area, they get moved, they will make their way to the Enfield area. So be a bit cautious tonight. I'm not actually sorry for this broadcast."

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Looks like my part of the world will be on fire tonight.

This could potentially spread like a wildfire. I've heard rumours of armed police on twitter, can anybody substantiate this?

[Bitter Ashes]

Armed police? Just think... they could be the same gunmen who murdered Duggan or DeMendez. It's times like this I wish I had the power to dodge bullets, wade in there and drag the bastards to a real court on real murder charges.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Won't happen under this corrupt system. Seen an article going round (Dave Hill of the Guardian, I think); 333 deaths in custody since 1998, 87 involving restraining, 16 or so where there was a recommendation for a prosecution. None found guilty.

[Sasha]

THE RIOT ‘EXPERTS’ ARE AMONGST US (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-riot-experts-are-amongst-us/)

Ah it has begun. An endless promenade of pastors, youth workers, community leaders ( why don’t white folks have community leaders?), vicars, multi-culture wallahs being interviwed to offer explanation of the riots to the worried well As in 1981 the explanations are old hokum – total bollocks. The rioters ‘want jobs- – well they’l be some construction opportunities for sure now they’ve burned down the Job centre. So they’ll be happy with a BIG NEW JOB CENTRE then. And ‘leisure opportunities’ – like shopping without money? And ‘youth clubs’ so they don’t have to sit outside on walls all day….and PING PONG WITH THE FUCKING VICAR! By the end of the week the pastors will be replaced by the Polly Toynbees and Lee Jasper and SWPers droning on about jobs…and…er jobs. All total bollocks but turned into full on opnion pieces by the weekend.
Of course the rioters never talk because they’d be nicked. Take Engen Raghip after the Broadwater farm riot. He naively told the daily Mail he’d been present at the riot – within a year he was serving life for the murder of PC blakelock. So the opportunity is opened for the clueless experts to speak on their behalf. No one speaks on their behalf . They have acted. They have made no demands. They have not chanted ‘No Ifs No buts’ The first issue of Class War had a photo from the 81 Brixton Riot of a man with his hea d pressed into a coppers face and his mouth in an angry snarl. The caption read ‘ Look at this geezer – is he asking the way to the job centre?’
The logjam of passivity has been broken. The rioters have done more for our class than a hundred TUC resolutions.


source: http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-riot-experts-are-amongst-us/

[Tifosi]

Burning car and barricades in Hackney right now.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01967/car2_1967126b.jpg

[Sasha]

pc6_ov6GK68

[bcbm]

twitter users face arrest for inciting looters (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8689076/London-riots-Twitter-users-face-arrest-for-inciting-looters.html)



Mr Godwin said the force needed to look at events leading up the riots but said he was "immensely proud" of some of the actions of his officers on Saturday night.
"I was immensely proud, as I have always been, to be a member of the Metropolitan Police Service.
"The sheer bravery, the determination and the resilience of the men and women of the Metropolitan police could be seen from all the images that we had."


beating 16 year old girls and executing people in the street. sheer bravery, give yourselves a pat on the back you fucking swine. acab

[Sasha]

disgusting, some hack "journalist" on BBC london just managed to argue that it was not all "thugs" but also "anarchists" as he saw an white person getting arrested.

[bcbm]

i thought in the news media lexicon, anarchists are usually thugs? get it together guys

[Sasha]

the gun found in the mini-cab turned out to be an replica...
murder

[Sasha]

peckham and lewisham are kicking of

[bcbm]

the unlikely social network fueling the tottenham riots (http://urbanmashup.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/the-unlikely-social-network-fuelling-the-tottenham-riots/)


peckham and lewisham are kicking of

kn_8CKu9toc

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Bloody hell, I was born in Lewisham.

[hatzel]

Bloody hell, I was born in Lewisham.

I'm still very nearly there. I don't expect it to spread any further my way, though; correct me if I'm wrong, but Lewisham was as far as it got during the Brixton riots, and I can't see anywhere further out than that getting involved...

EDIT: the guy on the phone on the BBC news at the moment, saying it's all unemployed career criminals who have never had and never will have a job. Apparently, they're 'not venting their anger at anything, they just see the opportunity to steal stuff'...guy's clearly talking out of his backside, the videos I'm seeing don't suggest anything like that...

EDIT2: I know we've kind of forgotten the whole Mark Duggan thing, but according to a Twitter feed:


Royal cock up! Police issued bullet lodged in police radio!!! Mark Duggan did NOT shoot at the police!

[Tifosi]

Shops going up in flames in Peckham live on BBC.

http://thewestlondoner.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/skycopter.png

[Tim Finnegan]

Some revolting talking head is saying that the poor, much-criticised police are afraid of stepping in against rioters in case they get in trouble. :crying: Is he aware exactly how this whole fucking mess started? :mad:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Not sure that shops and flats going up in flames is something to celebrate. These are ordinary peoples' livelihoods we are talking about.

[crazyirish93]

One interesting thing to come of these riots is that it has shown how easily the police can be out maneuvered and avoided and makes it impossible to use kettling a huge group of people in a square or street may look good but u waste all the people who cant get near the police to fight them.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i remember hearing last night about police being pushed back under a hail of bottles and bricks.

who knows what will happen tonight for yall in london.

now i may be getting an airy head but is it possible that places like Birmingham might see stuff like this?

[Tifosi]

now i may be getting an airy head but is it possible that places like Birmingham might see stuff like this?

"1910: Reports coming in of more disturbances in Birmingham. A bit outside our remit!" - from here (http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/more-london-disturbances-tonight/), but I haven't seen anything else.

[hatzel]

One interesting thing to come of these riots is that it has shown how easily the police can be out maneuvered and avoided and makes it impossible to use kettling a huge group of people in a square or street may look good but u waste all the people who cant get near the police to fight them.

From the videos, the protesters / rioters / hoodlums (:rolleyes:) / whatever you want to call them are pretty sparse on the streets...oh, they were, it's starting to build up a bit, but I think they're still outnumbered by the police...

EDIT: the news says they're at it in Birmingham, too, with videos to confirm the above.

[RedAnarchist]

i remember hearing last night about police being pushed back under a hail of bottles and bricks.

who knows what will happen tonight for yall in london.

now i may be getting an airy head but is it possible that places like Birmingham might see stuff like this?

At http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675 they have a live focus on what is going on, and a few minute ago this was posted (It's currently 19:52pm)-

"1948: Away from the capital, there are reports of a standoff between police and youths outside Birmingham's Pallasades Shopping Centre. That's close to the city's New Street railway station."

Apparently, in Leeds, there was a shooting a hour or two ago, and the BBC is saying that some some young people have been gathering near the scene.

[Rusty Shackleford]

from what i have gathered. this is a revolt amongst the most oppressed communities and if i am correct, industrial(formerly) cities like Birmingham is one where a lot of poor and oppressed nationalities live.

[hatzel]

from what i have gathered. this is a revolt amongst the most oppressed communities and if i am correct, industrial(formerly) cities like Birmingham is one where a lot of poor and oppressed nationalities live.

You are, indeed, correct, yes :) Birmingham, one of the few non-Asian areas with its very own unique Indian cuisine, specific curry dishes and the like...in case anybody from elsewhere wanted to know the demographic make-up of that city...

[Rusty Shackleford]

now, 2nd question. Any word of EDL and BNP cretins coming out in street gangs to pick fights or making any statements?

[Manic Impressive]

now, 2nd question. Any word of EDL and BNP cretins coming out in street gangs to pick fights or making any statements?
I seriously doubt they would, they would be massively outnumbered and they support the police in times like this

[Sasha]

now, 2nd question. Any word of EDL and BNP cretins coming out in street gangs to pick fights or making any statements?


i assume they are way to chickenshit for that, they would get slaughtered, they are not local

[Tifosi]

Hackney

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01967/hackneycar_1967179c.jpg

and Birmingham

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01967/Brummie_1967231a.jpg

[Rusty Shackleford]

7WXS8JZF-Zg

[RedAnarchist]

Someone has made a Google Map of the riot locations so far - http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f 7&msa=0&ll=52.018698%2C-0.895386&spn=1.801795%2C4.779053.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This is escalating quite rapidly.

Interestingly enough, it's the first weekend of the Premier League football on the weekend. Tottenham are at home, not sure who else is. Can see it all being postponed at this rate.

[Tim Finnegan]

the gun found in the mini-cab turned out to be an replica...
murder
Is there a link for this? (Talking to some other folk about it.)

[Tifosi]

This is escalating quite rapidly.

Interestingly enough, it's the first weekend of the Premier League football on the weekend. Tottenham are at home, not sure who else is. Can see it all being postponed at this rate.

Well the night this all started, Tottenham played at home against Athletico Bilbao. I doubt the football will stop this, if the riots continue into the next weekend.

[The Douche]

Not sure that shops and flats going up in flames is something to celebrate. These are ordinary peoples' livelihoods we are talking about.

Defend small business! Long live communism!
:rolleyes:

[hatzel]

Someone has made a Google Map of the riot locations so far

Oh! I didn't know it was on in Croydon as well...I'm surrounded :scared:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Defend small business! Long live communism!
:rolleyes:

Ignoring the part about peoples' flats. Long live bandwagonism: rolleyes:

But yeah, small businesses, particularly family-run ones, are not at odds with Socialism at all.

[Tifosi]

Somebody shot in Leeds (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14449656)

[RedAnarchist]

http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/ has live updates of what is going on in Birmingham (they seem to be apolitical, but leaning towards a pro-police view).

[Tim Finnegan]

Jesus, watching the news, you'd think this was all just a mass looting spree. Trust the media to reduce it to nothing but "scary black people doing scary black people things". :glare:

[Bronco]

Not sure that shops and flats going up in flames is something to celebrate. These are ordinary peoples' livelihoods we are talking about.

Have to agree, and I also read today that there were 30 flats above the Carpet Right store that was set on fire last night, all the tenants are now homeless.

I can sympathise with the rioters, of course I can, but it's gone way past the point of celebrating this now

[Coach Trotsky]

where is the left?

[Sasha]

Is there a link for this? (Talking to some other folk about it.)


was on BBC london news at 5.30 (london time)

[hatzel]

Jesus, watching the news, you'd think this was all just a mass looting spree. Trust the media to reduce it to nothing but "scary black people doing scary black people things". :glare:

"It's summer holidays, it's a nice light evening, these are just kids who think it's exciting to go out on the street and set buildings on fire, it's something to do for entertainment..."

[Sasha]

Oh! I didn't know it was on in Croydon as well...I'm surrounded :scared:


croydon is kicking of big time apparently, whole neighborhood is in lockdown

[Manic Impressive]

where is the left?
we're posting in this thread :D

[The Douche]

Ignoring the part about peoples' flats. Long live bandwagonism: rolleyes:

But yeah, small businesses, particularly family-run ones, are not at odds with Socialism at all.

I don't defend anybody's right to private property, I believe in its abolishment, all business, even small ones, are at odds with the world I want.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

where is the left?

It's not an organised nor a revolutionary action. It's a spontaneous, unconscious eruption of violence and anger. Nothing more, as of yet, though i'd watch this space. Seems to be escalating very rapidly.

[Sasha]

Well the night this all started, Tottenham played at home against Athletico Bilbao. I doubt the football will stop this, if the riots continue into the next weekend.

there is talk about cancelling nothinghill carnival, im not sure if this would diminish the riots or fuel them.

[KurtFF8]

Spending cuts, police lay behind UK riot, locals say (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/07/us-britain-riot-scene-idUSTRE77627H20110807)


By Adrian Croft

LONDON | Sun Aug 7, 2011 2:53pm EDT

LONDON (Reuters) - Anger at high unemployment and cuts in public services, coupled with resentment of the police, contributed to an explosion of violence and looting in a deprived London neighborhood, residents said Sunday.

The riot in Tottenham, an area of sprawling north London that is home to many different ethnic groups, erupted on Saturday night after a street protest over the fatal shooting of a local man by police.

Rioters set police patrol cars, buildings and a double-decker bus on fire. Others took advantage of the police being occupied to loot a nearby retail park, smashing shop windows and hauling away televisions, computers and sports shoes.

Police sealed off the main road through Tottenham Sunday as they investigated violence that injured 26 officers. A burned-out car stood nearby and the street was littered with pieces of brick dug up from the street to use as missiles.

The area remained tense as residents gathered to gape at the destruction, some loudly venting grievances against the police and government.

Several said long-mounting frustration over the gloomy economic situation, which has led the government to slash many public services to rein in a big budget deficit, and anger at what some saw as unfair treatment of ethnic minorities by the police, had boiled over.

Unemployed local man Scott Allen said he feared similar violence might happen in other parts of London.

"Tension is building because of the coalition government's cost-cutting measures. People in the poorer communities of London and around the country are going to feel victimized," Allen, who said he was in his 40s, told Reuters.

The riot comes less than a year before London's Metropolitan Police must shoulder the burden of policing the Olympic games. Allen said deprived areas such as Tottenham were not seeing benefits from billions of pounds spent on the Olympics.

"The last few weeks have all been about how the Olympics are going to ... transform London and how we are going to have a massive legacy. Well, this is the legacy. The legacy is already here," he said, motioning toward the damage caused by the riot.

Tottenham had been "massively" affected by steep spending cuts ordered by the 15-month-old coalition government to try to balance its books, he said. Youth services had been cut and unemployment had risen as public sector workers were laid off.

The riot follows several outbreaks of violence in London in the past year at political protests against the government's austerity policies. A 26-year-old black man, who gave his name only as Jason, said the riot was a "cry for help."

"I have no job, no prospects, no anything. Then they wonder why there's crime," he said, adding he had been unemployed since he left school.

"This is the ghetto, this is the slums, they don't care about us. I've been stopped outside my house by the police for no reason. There's no jobs ... but still they want to cut benefits. We ain't got no way to survive and it's like no-one don't care about us.

"There's injustice and we've had enough," he added.

A 28-year-old mother of two from nearby Enfield who gave her name as Diana X, said anger had been building among ethnic minorities for a long time because many felt police did not deal with them fairly.

"So many opportunities are being taken away from those who are working class and that tends to affect the ethnic minorities," she said.

Looting was not justified but people were upset and saw it as a way to vent frustration on big organizations, she said.

At nearby Tottenham Hale retail park, stunned shopworkers arrived to find stores had been trashed and ransacked.

Windows or doors were smashed at electrical goods stores PC World and Currys, mobile phone shops O2 and Orange, catalog store Argos and sports clothing retailer JD Sports. Empty boxes from giant plasma TV screens and sports shoes littered the parking lot.

"They've taken almost everything. Whatever is left they've damaged," JD Sports branch manager Saad Kamal, 27, said. "It's a huge loss for us. It's unbelievable," he said.

[Coach Trotsky]

It's not an organised nor a revolutionary action. It's a spontaneous, unconscious eruption of violence and anger. Nothing more, as of yet, though i'd watch this space. Seems to be escalating very rapidly.

How is this supposed to develop beyond where it is now, where the consciousness and focus is now? How do we go from rebellions to fundamental and permanent change? What is the role of the revolutionary socialists in the area supposed to be in moments like this?

[Tim Finnegan]

Some twerp on the BBC saying that "People are upset, because they thought that Brixton was past that sort of thing. They don't want to be tarred with that brush again." Aye, well, I'd say that you can blame that one on the coppers who murdered an unarmed black man.


How is this supposed to develop beyond where it is now, where the consciousness and focus is now? How do we go from rebellions to fundamental and permanent change? What is the role of the revolutionary socialists in the area supposed to be in moments like this?
To try not to catch a brick to the head. What else can they do?

[Sasha]

constant reports of journalists getting bottled and attacked all over, interestingly this is also an continuing thing happening anytime there is an disturbance or even when they are filming an completely unrelated item in the "ghettos" in the netherlands.
seems these youth have an instinctive hatred for the media second only to their hate for the pigs.

[Rusty Shackleford]

heres a thing i still dont get. why do people hate journalists so much?

is it because of identity security? their portrayal of things? or what?

[t.shonku]

Without the state being able to provide justice, while blocking these people from taking these coppers to a real court, options become slim and everything boils down to whether to sit back and let the coppers kill again, or to do exactly what they're doing in Tottenham.

Fuck the state for forcing good people to choose between injustice and having to put their own necks on the line. Solidarity brothers and sisters.


Well said Hannah very well said !

That is exactly the case . I am happy with the way working class and particularly the youths and students are rising up in protests against the state in Britain.

We need to see this stuff in USA too, when will we see this in USA? can any American comrade answer this? the world is waking up when will you?

[LewisQ]

A riot is an inarticulate expression of a suppressed revolutionary impulse. That said, I wouldn't want to be out leafleting on the streets of London at the moment. Not sure why people are criticizing the revolutionary left's absence. There's not much you can do in the middle of a riot apart from jump in front of bricks or join in, and I'm not sure either action is appropriate from a socialist perspective.

[Manic Impressive]

heres a thing i still dont get. why do people hate journalists so much?

is it because of identity security? their portrayal of things? or what?
both probably, but from my experience they are fucking arseholes and can be quite violent themselves. They're not afraid to put in an elbow or barge people out of the way in order to get a photo.

[hatzel]

Pictures of Croydon burning up on the box. Seems psycho was right...strange to see places I know so well on fire...

[Tifosi]

croydon is kicking of big time apparently, whole neighborhood is in lockdown

On Sky news mulitple buildings on fire on same street in Croydon. Looks like four buildings. I'll be surprised if nobody dies in a fire tonight.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01967/croydon2_1967275b.jpg

http://thewestlondoner.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/london27.jpg

[Tim Finnegan]

Ach, Jesus, this is getting really bad. :(

[The Douche]

A riot is an inarticulate expression of a suppressed revolutionary impulse. That said, I wouldn't want to be out leafleting on the streets of London at the moment. Not sure why people are criticizing the revolutionary left's absence. There's not much you can do in the middle of a riot apart from jump in front of bricks or join in, and I'm not sure either action is appropriate from a socialist perspective.

Why is participation in working class fight back not an appropriate action for a revolutionary?:huh:

[Tim Finnegan]

Why is participation in working class fight back not an appropriate action for a revolutionary?:huh:
I don't think that this is "working class fightback". Most of the working class people in these areas are scared shitless.

[The Douche]

I don't think that this is "working class fightback". Most of the working class people in these areas are scared shitless.

Oh yeah...it must be middle class professionals engaged in the riot?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why is participation in working class fight back not an appropriate action for a revolutionary?:huh:

This is not a class action. It's a non-revolutionary reaction by a disparate group of working class people. There's a massive difference, politically speaking.

[Tim Finnegan]

Oh yeah...it must be middle class professionals engaged in the riot?
Classes aren't hive-minds. Working class people do something isn't the same thing as the working class doing something.

[Manic Impressive]

I don't think that this is "working class fightback". Most of the working class people in these areas are scared shitless.
most absurd comment I've seen in a long time. How is this not a working class fight? because some people are scared?

[Rusty Shackleford]

this is action by oppressed working and non working people who are fed up.


i forgot who said it in this thread but this kind of stuff will lead to questions about alternatives afterwards. it may not resonate with the oppressing nationality but it may end up politicizing those who are in the streets now.

rioting is not the solution but it is a step towards politicization.

And right now, like in the US, no revolutionary organization has the means to actually become leaders of these things. The only movements with organizational heads that are large enough are the student anti-cuts movements/organizations.

If white and nonwhite students get in on this then it has become politicized. thats my opinion at least.

[The Douche]

Unless my party leads it is not fight back, and unless the working class as whole is involved, its not fight back. Got it.


:rolleyes:

[Manic Impressive]

Rusty why do you keep mentioning nationalities? this isn't a question of citizenship or ethnicity. The press will try and make this a racial issue but it's not it's a class issue.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Unless my party leads it is not fight back, and unless the working class as whole is involved, its not fight back. Got it.


:rolleyes:
im not saying its not a fight back. im saying it is not a pointed and politically directed fight back. it is a blunt one right now.

it is a fight back that is being led, right now, by a sector of the working class. and the whole of the working class will never be behind revolutionary politics or even insurrection because there are those who do not care for class interests and what not.

:glare:

[brigadista]

its not about race - these kids obviously believe they have nothing to lose

[Rusty Shackleford]

Rusty why do you keep mentioning nationalities? this isn't a question of citizenship or ethnicity. The press will try and make this a racial issue but it's not it's a class issue.
touche

[Dimmu]

Unless my party leads it is not fight back, and unless the working class as whole is involved, its not fight back. Got it.


:rolleyes:


Yep.. Whats up with all the vanguardism? Working class should be encouraged to stand up to the state, they know what to do and they dont need a vanguard party to lead them.

[The Douche]

im not saying its not a fight back. im saying it is not a pointed and politically directed fight back. it is a blunt one right now.

it is a fight back that is being led, right now, by a sector of the working class. and the whole of the working class will never be behind revolutionary politics or even insurrection because there are those who do not care for class interests and what not.

:glare:

My comment was not intended to be directed towards you, but to those who think this is not an expression of the working class.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yep.. Whats up with all the vanguardism? Working class should be encouraged to stand up to the state, they know what to do and they dont need a vanguard party to lead them.

God! It's nothing to do with vanguardism.

Tim and I are pointing out that there is a difference between a class action, and an action by some members of the working class that is not politically motivated, nor based on any particular cause.

[Tim Finnegan]

most absurd comment I've seen in a long time. How is this not a working class fight? because some people are scared?
Because this isn't meaningful class struggle. It isn't expressing or advancing working class interests. It expresses class conflict insofar as it expresses the frustrations of poor and exploited individuals, yes, but that's not the same thing as an actual class-based struggle against the state.


My comment was not intended to be directed towards you, but to those who think this is not an expression of the working class.
What do you mean by this?

[Dimmu]

God! It's nothing to do with vanguardism.

Tim and I are pointing out that there is a difference between a class action, and an action by some members of the working class that is not politically motivated, nor based on any particular cause.


IMHO everything is politics.. These situation did not just blow up because of one shooting.. Many different factors play a role in this riot.

"Riot is the language of the unheard".

[hatzel]

Tim and I are pointing out that there is a difference between a class action, and an action by some members of the working class that is not politically motivated, nor based on any particular cause.

I would argue that autonomous action by individuals (who just so happen to be working class) when they are kind of pissed off at how stuff is going is considerably better than people acting according to their workerdom, in a manner which corresponds to the political intentions of 'the Left' or some faction of it, which would make it 'working class action.'

Not intended as a comment on these actions in particular, and I don't think burning down people's homes in some of the poorest areas of London is something to celebrate, but as a general comment floating above the whole affair...

[Manic Impressive]

God! It's nothing to do with vanguardism.

Tim and I are pointing out that there is a difference between a class action, and an action by some members of the working class that is not politically motivated, nor based on any particular cause.
I would say that this is politically motivated. OK people are not holding banners and wearing fancy dress. There are no sit ins or chants of "no to cutbacks" But a lot of these kids out there now will be the same kids who came out on the "official" protests. They know that they are being dicked over by the government, they have learned that marches and asking nicely only gets you illegally detained in a police kettle. There is no way you can say that the recent events are not all connected and that this is the outcome of the recent increase in oppression and the ever ready police brutality. Of course this is all connected and is not apolitical at all.

[~Spectre]

Sorry if already posted, the thread is a little long and I just got here:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots.html

[The Douche]

God! It's nothing to do with vanguardism.

Tim and I are pointing out that there is a difference between a class action, and an action by some members of the working class that is not politically motivated, nor based on any particular cause.

Wut?



You don't recognize the connections between these events and being a poor unemployed/under-employed young person whos future is under attack (in the form of cuts) and who suffers constant repression from the police?

They looted some stores? Of course they fucking did, do you know what its like to be constantly bombarded with the sights and sounds of luxury items you will never be able to afford? How is the expropriation of these items not an inherently political act?

They set some things on fire? Of course they did, these are the shops that refuse them employment, and sell things they can't afford.

[Tim Finnegan]

I would say that this is politically motivated. OK people are not holding banners and wearing fancy dress. There are no sit ins or chants of "no to cutbacks" But a lot of these kids out there now will be the same kids who came out on the "official" protests. They know that they are being dicked over by the government, they have learned that marches and asking nicely only gets you illegally detained in a police kettle. There is no way you can say that the recent events are not all connected and that this is the outcome of the recent increase in oppression and the ever ready police brutality. Of course this is all connected and is not apolitical at all.
The fact that it is political doesn't mean that it constitutes meaningful class struggle. That's a tremendous over-simplification.


They set some things on fire? Of course they did, these are the shops that refuse them employment, and sell things they can't afford.
And the houses?

[Manic Impressive]

(who just so happen to be working class)except it's no coincidence that they are working class

[Manic Impressive]

The fact that it is political doesn't mean that it constitutes meaningful class struggle. That's a tremendous over-simplification.
It constitutes class struggle though. perhaps not meaningful or productive but class struggle none the less

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Wut?



You don't recognize the connections between these events and being a poor unemployed/under-employed young person whos future is under attack (in the form of cuts) and who suffers constant repression from the police?

They looted some stores? Of course they fucking did, do you know what its like to be constantly bombarded with the sights and sounds of luxury items you will never be able to afford? How is the expropriation of these items not an inherently political act?

They set some things on fire? Of course they did, these are the shops that refuse them employment, and sell things they can't afford.

There's only a small element of truth to what you're saying.

Sadly, you're in the USA and i've lived in the thick of these places since birth. The reality simply doesn't square with what you are saying. These aren't protests. It may be a cry for help but it'd mindless and verging on lumpen-reaction.

Of coruse, there is potential for development here, if some coherent cause/message is rallied around, but at the moment there is zero consciousness amongst the people perpetrating the violence.

[Mindtoaster]

And the houses?

Were built above the shops that were torched. Doesn't really seem to be deliberate though I doubt most of the rioters would care much anyway

[Tim Finnegan]

It constitutes class struggle though. perhaps not meaningful or productive but class struggle none the less
Then allow me to re-phrase: it constitutes an expression of class struggle, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it constitutes the effective advancement of class struggle. It's desperate flailing by helpless people, an expression of working class weakness, not the mustering of working class strength.


Were built above the shops that were torched. Doesn't really seem to be deliberate though I doubt most of the rioters would care much anyway
It doesn't have to be deliberate to make the legitimacy of that particular violence rather more questionable. There are still working class people being driven from their homes, being put through potentially fatal danger, having their meagre possessions arbitrarily destroyed. If that's class struggle, then I don't want it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

new liveblog set up for tonight with constant updates from "the west londoner"

http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/more-london-disturbances-tonight/


beware. the updates are not always accurate and the poster, though dedicated to heeping updates regular, also posts pictures of rioters to ask if anyone can identify them.

[Dimmu]

The fact that it is political doesn't mean that it constitutes meaningful class struggle. That's a tremendous over-simplification.

IMHO it does.. Just look at how this started and how fast its spreading. A lot of people need someone to take the first step for them before they start to act. Same goes for class-conscientious and in my opinion these people know how much they are getting oppressed compared to someone who thinks that he is middle-class because he everything he owns is really owned by a bank.





And the houses?Extremely stupid action.. Nothing more to add.

[The Douche]

And the houses?

Do you work for the bourgeois press or something?

Thats it? Thats your response? This isn't a politically motivated working class issue because some people's houses caught on fire? You don't see how the insistence on such issues is what the ruling class does in order to 1) stop people from thinking about the causes of these situations, and 2) delegitimize them?

[Manic Impressive]

There's only a small element of truth to what you're saying.

Sadly, you're in the USA and i've lived in the thick of these places since birth. The reality simply doesn't square with what you are saying. These aren't protests. It may be a cry for help but it'd mindless and verging on lumpen-reaction.

Of coruse, there is potential for development here, if some coherent cause/message is rallied around, but at the moment there is zero consciousness amongst the people perpetrating the violence.
stop looking down your fucking nose at people you snooty prick

[The Douche]

There's only a small element of truth to what you're saying.

Sadly, you're in the USA and i've lived in the thick of these places since birth. The reality simply doesn't square with what you are saying. These aren't protests. It may be a cry for help but it'd mindless and verging on lumpen-reaction.

Of coruse, there is potential for development here, if some coherent cause/message is rallied around, but at the moment there is zero consciousness amongst the people perpetrating the violence.

And here in the states, we recognize things like the LA riots of 92 and the Watts rebellion for what they were, working class rebellions, caused by the inequalities of capitalism and police brutality.

[Tifosi]

http://thewestlondoner.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/london28.jpg

[RedSpartacus]

I actually happen to live right here in Croydon and things are getting a bit chaotic. There is a massive fire in the town centre and I can see the police helicopter hovering around and I keep on hearing the sirens.

This is not a working class insurrection in any way! The majority of the culprits of these acts are young thugs and teens (the kind who would mug an old lady and film it to put it up on youtube), and they are doing it either "for a laugh", or want to have a "dig at the police". We all know that they're upbringing is the result of the failures of capitalism, however, calling this a genuine insurrection is akin to stating that mob rule is revolutionary. If anything, the far-right has more of an appeal to this kind of crowd as it appeals to their base animal instincts. They have neither genuine grievances nor clearly definable demands. They just want to f**k things up! Pure and simple.

[Tim Finnegan]

IMHO it does.. Just look at how this started and how fast its spreading. A lot of people need someone to take the first step for them before they start to act. Same goes for class-conscientious and in my opinion these people know how much they are getting oppressed compared to someone who thinks that he is middle-class because he everything he owns is really owned by a bank.
I don't see how the speed of this makes it effective class struggle. It certainly means that this was setting off an existing powder keg of frustrations, sure, that the tensions being released are more than just individual criminality as the media and cops are rushing to proclaim, but that doesn't mean that what we're seeing is the advancement of working class interests by the working class organised, consciously or not, as a class.


Do you work for the bourgeois press or something?

Thats it? Thats your response? This isn't a politically motivated working class issue because some people's houses caught on fire? You don't see how the insistence on such issues is what the ruling class does in order to 1) stop people from thinking about the causes of these situations, and 2) delegitimize them?
I understand that the over-emphasis on property damage on the part of the bourgeois media is ideological, yes, but that doesn't change the reality of these events. You describe the destruction as the more or less coherent expression of class struggle, and I'm sceptical of that, because a considerable part of it seems to be rather aimless.

[Manic Impressive]

And here in the states, we recognize things like the LA riots of 92 and the Watts rebellion for what they were, working class rebellions, caused by the inequalities of capitalism and police brutality.
It's nothing to do with you being from the USA, El Granma just threw that in because their argument is weak and based on prejudice of the most oppressed in the communities in which we live.

[Tim Finnegan]

It's nothing to do with you being from the USA, El Granma just threw that in because their argument is weak and based on prejudice of the most oppressed in the communities in which we live.
"Prejudice"? When he's repeatedly pointed out that he is actually from this area? That seems a rather ungenerous assumption. :confused:

[Tifosi]

Damm the BBC are wankers!

"Why don't you send in the army?"

Fuck off!

[The Douche]

The majority of the culprits of these acts are young thugs and teens



"Prejudice"? When he's repeatedly pointed out that he is actually from this area? That seems a rather ungenerous assumption. :confused:

Its really a shame when people take on the colonialist mindset and adopt it as their own.


Fanon had a lot to say about it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

1847: Peckham and Lewisham – reports that cars are on fire. Rioters reportedly getting closer to Tooting.:laugh:


the real cause of this is that people are having trouble with flatulence!



google map tweet map (http://londonriotsmap.appspot.com/)

[Tifosi]

They have neither genuine grievances

Yes they do. They have to life shit lifes, in shit homes with a shit future in prospect. They have to take shit from the cops. They have been forced into a situation were they feel they have nothing else to lose. They just wouldn't be burning down shops and cars if they where in any different situation.

[Coach Trotsky]

Yep.. Whats up with all the vanguardism? Working class should be encouraged to stand up to the state, they know what to do and they dont need a vanguard party to lead them.
I couldn't disagree more with this statement, in light of the situation in England's streets right now, in light of what's occurred in mass rebellions from Egypt to Greece and elsewhere. 2011 is the year it should be clearer than ever to revolutionary socialists that Leninism is necessary.

If this thread doesn't clearly distinguish between the liberals, the ultra-left riot-porn folks, and the revolutionary socialists here, then I don't know how it could be made much clearer.

[Sasha]

2041: Just been sent this. Looks like some people are advising the rioters and looters on how to avoid being caught. Looks similar to literature I’ve seen at the trade union and student riots in London earlier this year.
(image removed – it is of a leaflet being handed out on the street)


seems some leftists/experienced activists are on the grounds

also powercuts in soho and the west-end...

some other remarks:

about the rioting in their own area; the cops they hate are in that area, the shops selling the expensive shit they cant afford are in that area, they feel comfortable in this area, they have an home advantage, from an individualist/non-politicized angle this makes a lot more sense than trying to start an riot in the center.

also, as someone here on in a report said "whats more obscene, people queuing up arround the block for an shoppingcenter or people burning it down?"

[brigadista]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots

Since the coalition came to power just over a year ago, the country has seen multiple student protests, occupations of dozens of universities, several strikes, a half-a-million-strong trade union march and now unrest on the streets of the capital (preceded by clashes with Bristol police in Stokes Croft earlier in the year). Each of these events was sparked by a different cause, yet all take place against a backdrop of brutal cuts and enforced austerity measures. The government knows very well that it is taking a gamble, and that its policies run the risk of sparking mass unrest on a scale we haven't seen since the early 1980s. With people taking to the streets of Tottenham, Edmonton, Brixton and elsewhere over the past few nights, we could be about to see the government enter a sustained and serious losing streak.

The policies of the past year may have clarified the division between the entitled and the dispossessed in extreme terms, but the context for social unrest cuts much deeper. The fatal shooting of Mark Duggan last Thursday, where it appears, contrary to initial accounts, that only police bullets were fired, is another tragic event in a longer history of the Metropolitan police's treatment of ordinary Londoners, especially those from black and minority ethnic backgrounds, and the singling out of specific areas and individuals for monitoring, stop and search and daily harassment.

One journalist wrote that he was surprised how many people in Tottenham knew of and were critical of the IPCC, but there should be nothing surprising about this. When you look at the figures for deaths in police custody (at least 333 since 1998 and not a single conviction of any police officer for any of them), then the IPCC and the courts are seen by many, quite reasonably, to be protecting the police rather than the people.

Combine understandable suspicion of and resentment towards the police based on experience and memory with high poverty and large unemployment and the reasons why people are taking to the streets become clear. (Haringey, the borough that includes Tottenham, has the fourth highest level of child poverty in London and an unemployment rate of 8.8%, double the national average, with one vacancy for every 54 seeking work in the borough.)

Those condemning the events of the past couple of nights in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture: a country in which the richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest, where consumerism predicated on personal debt has been pushed for years as the solution to a faltering economy, and where, according to the OECD, social mobility is worse than any other developed country.

As Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett point out in The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone, phenomena usually described as "social problems" (crime, ill-health, imprisonment rates, mental illness) are far more common in unequal societies than ones with better economic distribution and less gap between the richest and the poorest. Decades of individualism, competition and state-encouraged selfishness – combined with a systematic crushing of unions and the ever-increasing criminalisation of dissent – have made Britain one of the most unequal countries in the developed world.

Images of burning buildings, cars aflame and stripped-out shops may provide spectacular fodder for a restless media, ever hungry for new stories and fresh groups to demonise, but we will understand nothing of these events if we ignore the history and the context in which they occur.

[Manic Impressive]

"Prejudice"? When he's repeatedly pointed out that he is actually from this area? That seems a rather ungenerous assumption. :confused:
I'm from Leiwsham bruv. There was a documentary once where they followed two families who lived on opposite sides of the road, it was actually only a few doors down from me.
The first family were really poor and when asked about the area they said "It's fucking terrible around here, there's no jobs, the schools are shit, the area is run down, it's like a ghetto around here"

They asked the second family who were quite prosperous and could be called socially middle class, they said "oh it's great around here, there's a big park and not too far from some good shops, although there are an aweful lot of hard looking boys around"

The point is that you can live on the same street and not feel oppression equally. The sort of comments from El Granma are what I would expect of one of those families, comments I've hated all my life trying to act like they're so much better than you and everyone else. Well Fuck 'em

[Sasha]

2153: Ikea in Purley has been evacuated. Meanwhile unconfirmed reports are coming in of riots in Feltham Young Offenders’ Institute.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yes they do. They have to life shit lifes, in shit homes with a shit future in prospect. They have been forced into a situation were they feel they have nothing else to lose. They just wouldn't be burning down shops and cars if they where in any different situation.
Yeah, as much as I'm sceptical of the class struggle content of all this, it'd be madness to take the official line that it's nothing more than a spontaneous mass criminality. The fact that this has spread so far so fast, even sparking off confrontations a hundred miles away, shows that this is a release of tensions that have been building for some time.


I couldn't disagree more with this statement, in light of the situation in England's streets right now, in light of what's occurred in mass rebellions from Egypt to Greece and elsewhere. 2011 is the year it should be clearer than ever to revolutionary socialists that Leninism is necessary.
Pretty sure that petrol burns better than Lenin. :confused:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/mischief.gif

[Rusty Shackleford]

2200: Sky News have been reporting that the Home Secretary, Theresa May, could deploy water cannon. I wonder how many police are left in reserve?

[Sasha]

Dozens of youths started the night's violence on Northcote Road at just after nine o'clock when they ransacked a Curry's electronic store in Northcote Road. They were joined by dozens of others, many with black hoods and scarves after a small number of riot police left the scene half an hour earlier when they came under light bombardment from projectiles.
Onlookers and locals identified many of those present as "blues, yellows and reds", members of local gangs who they said had called a truce for the evening. Along Northcote Road the windows of other stores in including Starbucks were smashed.
The gangs ran along the road and at one point a middle-aged man and his wife pointed in the direction of a jewellers further up the road and other potential targets.
Less than 30 metres away dozens of revellers stood outside a local pub drinking beer and looking on.
As it became apparent after 20 minutes of looting that the police were not coming back the looters were joined by many more.


source: guardian

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm from Leiwsham bruv. There was a documentary once where they followed two families who lived on opposite sides of the road, it was actually only a few doors down from me.
The first family were really poor and when asked about the area they said "It's fucking terrible around here, there's no jobs, the schools are shit, the area is run down, it's like a ghetto around here"

They asked the second family who were quite prosperous and could be called socially middle class, they said "oh it's great around here, there's a big park and not too far from some good shops, although there are an aweful lot of hard looking boys around"

The point is that you can live on the same street and not feel oppression equally. The sort of comments from El Granma are what I would expect of one of those families, comments I've hated all my life trying to act like they're so much better than you and everyone else. Well Fuck 'em

So it turns out that you are the one that is prejudiced.

I can only apologise for not being proletarian enough for you. I assume you are able to infer that i'm 'socially middle class' from my written words.:rolleyes:

[Manic Impressive]

So it turns out that you are the one that is prejudiced.

I can only apologise for not being proletarian enough for you. I assume you are able to infer that i'm 'socially middle class' from my written words.:rolleyes:
you put yourself in that position when you started calling people lumpen scum. Looks like we're both a little prejudiced :)

[Coach Trotsky]

I actually happen to live right here in Croydon and things are getting a bit chaotic. There is a massive fire in the town centre and I can see the police helicopter hovering around and I keep on hearing the sirens.

This is not a working class insurrection in any way! The majority of the culprits of these acts are young thugs and teens (the kind who would mug an old lady and film it to put it up on youtube), and they are doing it either "for a laugh", or want to have a "dig at the police". We all know that they're upbringing is the result of the failures of capitalism, however, calling this a genuine insurrection is akin to stating that mob rule is revolutionary. If anything, the far-right has more of an appeal to this kind of crowd as it appeals to their base animal instincts. They have neither genuine grievances nor clearly definable demands. They just want to f**k things up! Pure and simple.
And you can blame it chiefly on the failures and betrayals of the Left!
I asked "where is the Left (in the UK)?" in this thread, and look at the responses!
Uh, doesn't the SWP have something like 10000 members in Britain? Who seriously suggests that they couldn't do anything to significantly impact this situation with just 1/10th of their membership deployed to mobilize these communities to come all out and FOCUS/politicize the mass rebellion with effective mass militant action tactics and spreading the rebellion to other British urban areas?

[brigadista]

finding it hard to post on here tonight i am so depressed by some of the comment here

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Where did I ever use the word scum?

I used the word lumpen because that is what some elements are. Obviously, there is a social base reason for these riots no doubt, the social division that is the legacy of the past 30 years of neo-liberalism has contributed to the possibility of this, but there are certainly elements (think Enfield, Barnet) who are most certainly Lumpen and are taking part in these riots.

[AnonymousOne]

Is anybody else here worried about the ecological/environmental and health risks from starting so many things on fire. I'm sure it can't be all that healthy to be breathing that in, or all that good for the environment.

[Tifosi]

2200: Sky News have been reporting that the Home Secretary, Theresa May, could deploy water cannon. I wonder how many police are left in reserve?

Not tonight. The British state only has water cannons in the occupied 6 counties. So they would therefor need to be shipped in.

[Coach Trotsky]

Pretty sure that petrol burns better than Lenin. :confused:

But what if you want to do MORE than just burn things?

[Garret]

Even rumours going around that shit could kick off in Glasgow. If the Scots start is there any going back?

[Luís Henrique]

i thought in the news media lexicon, anarchists are usually thugs? get it together guys

Black people are thugs, white people are anarchist thugs.

Luís Henrique

[The Douche]

Is anybody else here worried about the ecological/environmental and health risks from starting so many things on fire. I'm sure it can't be all that healthy to be breathing that in, or all that good for the environment.

Pretty sure industrial civilization is worse for the environment, than burning it down.

[Tifosi]

http://thewestlondoner.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/london31.png

Scary how quickly fires become huge.

[brigadista]

Black people are thugs, white people are anarchist thugs.

Luís Henriquedont you mean "criminal thugs"? [not my opinion]oh and "lumpen"