Why aren't microstates overthrown by revolutionary groups?

[UnknownPerson]

THIS IS AN ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO AND TACTIC. IT IS NOT TO BE USED IN THE REAL WORLD. I WILL NOT USE THIS TACTIC AND DO NOT ADVICE ANYONE TO USE IT.

Why don't revolutionary groups overthrow micro-states? They usually have a small military and police force, which can be destroyed in one blow by planting bombs in the barracks and making them collapse (killing most of the military force, and surely making it unable to prevent the revolution), and then quickly capturing the government. After this, more resources could be found by taxation of the population at first, which could then be used to to arm the workers and overthrowing the private property of the means of production, and to ensure further survival of the revolution.

Actually, this doesn't only apply to micro-states (but usually does), as there are medium-sized states which have a small military - generally speaking, grey and yellow states can be easily overthrown:
Mod edit: put image in spoiler tags so it doesn't fuck up page width.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Map_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops.PNG

[Sensible Socialist]

What would stop a foreign country (United States) from sending in a few marines and shooting it all to hell? Look at Grenada; Reagan had a fun time with that little adventure.

[danyboy27]

beccause usually those states are easy to manipulate and crush if anything bad happen?

Panama, grenada, nicaragua, honduras, chile, those small countries all tried at a moment or another to become marxist/leftist and the result was......

life isnt a risk game son, sorry.

[Susurrus]

That sounds a bit like imperialism...

[UnknownPerson]

What would stop a foreign country (United States) from sending in a few marines and shooting it all to hell? Look at Grenada; Reagan had a fun time with that little adventure.

This is very true, but such revolutions might be possible as the US interventionism and world police bullshit will fade away with the fall of the Soviet Union.

[The Douche]

Because revolution isn't the result of either a foreign mercenary force (what you're suggesting) or of the will of revolutionaries.

Revolution happens because the social conditions necessitate mass working class action against the bosses, and you can't make that happen by planting a bomb.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Are you planning to overthrow Vatican City, Monaco, Andorra, Luxembourg, Monaco, or Fernando Po? My understanding is that European micro-states have elites which have been making a lot of money out of their "independence". Some time in the 80s, I believe there was a German group that had an aircraft carrier in the North Sea. They declared their independence and plan to open some sort of offshore casino/banking center. They were taken over by a group of British mercenaries. I don't know the current staus of that particular project.

[Sensible Socialist]

This is very true, but such revolutions might be possible as the US interventionism and world police bullshit will fade away with the fall of the Soviet Union.
Are you aware of what year it is?

[Ocean Seal]

What would stop a foreign country (United States) from sending in a few marines and shooting it all to hell? Look at Grenada; Reagan had a fun time with that little adventure.
This. And of course it takes a bit more than a few bombs in the barracks, and there aren't exactly armed revolutionary groups in each microstate.

[UnknownPerson]

Are you planning to overthrow Vatican City, Monaco, Andorra, Luxembourg, Monaco, or Fernando Po? My understanding is that European micro-states have elites which have been making a lot of money out of their "independence". Some time in the 80s, I believe there was a German group that had an aircraft carrier in the North Sea. They declared their independence and plan to open some sort of offshore casino/banking center. They were taken over by a group of British mercenaries. I don't know the current staus of that particular project.

European 'luxury' microstates have a lot of foreign support and if anything happens there the revolution will get crushed. But more 'isolated' microstates (or 'mediumstates' with a small military) would be unlikely to be invaded, at least with the fall of the US interventionism.

[Q]

1. Because microstates don't matter a whole lot on the global playing field, typically. Socialism is necessarily a global project as capitalism is a global system.

2. Because you'll get stuff like this (http://holgerawakens.blogspot.com/2011/03/saudi-led-army-moves-into-bahrain.html).

[UnknownPerson]

This. And of course it takes a bit more than a few bombs in the barracks, and there aren't exactly armed revolutionary groups in each microstate.

Of course, but they could be sent to those states and then purchase the weaponry on black markets, as well as a large amount of bombs (and probably chemical weapons to ensure that everyone in the barracks would be dead - chlorine chemical weapons can be easily manufactured at home).

[UnknownPerson]

1. Because microstates don't matter a whole lot on the global playing field, typically. Socialism is necessarily a global project as capitalism is a global system.

2. Because you'll get stuff like this (http://holgerawakens.blogspot.com/2011/03/saudi-led-army-moves-into-bahrain.html).

It has a potential of starting a revolutionary wave in friendly states like in the Arab Spring case.

[The Douche]

Communism doesn't come about just because you and your friends slaughter a bunch of sleeping soldiers.

[UnknownPerson]

Communism doesn't come about just because you and your friends slaughter a bunch of sleeping soldiers.

Of course it doesn't, but it advances the cause of communism due to the fact that positive feedback usually applies to revolutions as in the case of the Arab Spring. Also, neither I nor my friends desire to do anything like this. This is an entirely hypothetical question.

[jake williams]

You're a seriously odd dude with a lot of odd theories.

It's not just reprehensible to colonize a small state and wipe out its army as part of some "revolution" fantasy; it's untenable because, as pointed out, small states with no armies are going to be instantly wiped out by foreign powers.

[The Douche]

Of course it doesn't, but it advances the cause of communism due to the fact that positive feedback usually applies to revolutions as in the case of the Arab Spring.

None of the arab spring revolts have resulted in communism, none of them have been the result of some western leftists parachuting in and directing the movement.


Please, explain to me, why killing sleeping soldiers in Suriname helps communism happen?

[Book O'Dead]

Of course it doesn't, but it advances the cause of communism due to the fact that positive feedback usually applies to revolutions as in the case of the Arab Spring.

To begin with, your assumption that an armed insurrection necessarily precedes or brings about a general, revolutionary insurrection is erroneous. In fact, it is disproved by history itself.

For example, the armed phase of both the American and French revolutions was preceded by protracted, painful and agressive political, economic and philosophical debates and negotiations between the existing regimes and the agrieved parties. Granted, sometimes these 'negotiations' broke down and sometimes they were punctuated by acts of agression and provocations from one or both sides, but the armed phase of these revolutions were the result not the cause of revolutionary situations come to a head.

The Russian revolution was different, true, but not by that much, really. The Soviet uprisings of 1905 in Petersburg and elsewhere where initially political and non-violent and in some cases its demands went no further than a general demand for a constitutionally bound monarchy. The Revolution of 1905 was "crushed" by state violence and its leaders either killed or banished to Siberia but the Soviets, non-violently had already lit the spark of revolution that would (in 1917-18) bring Bolshevism to power.

[UnknownPerson]

None of the arab spring revolts have resulted in communism, none of them have been the result of some western leftists parachuting in and directing the movement.


Please, explain to me, why killing sleeping soldiers in Suriname helps communism happen?

I was simply making comparing and showing how revolutions often seem to work in a technologically developed world - positive feedback applies due to extensive communication technology development which wasn't the case.

Simply killing sleeping soldiers doesn't help, but killing them, capturing the government and then arming the proletariat helps communism due to the fact that then the proletariat would capture the means of production.

[UnknownPerson]

To begin with, your assumption that an armed insurrection necessarily precedes or brings about a general, revolutionary insurrection is erroneous. In fact, it is disproved by history itself.

For example, the armed phase of both the American and French revolutions was preceded by protracted, painful and agressive political, economic and philosophical debates and negotiations between the existing regimes and the agrieved parties. Granted, sometimes these 'negotiations' broke down and sometimes they were punctuated by acts of agression and provocations from one or both sides, but the armed phase of these revolutions were the result not the cause of revolutionary situations come to a head.

The Russian revolution was different, true, but not by that much, really. The Soviet uprisings of 1905 in Petersburg and elsewhere where initially political and non-violent and in some cases its demands went no further than a general demand for a constitutionally bound monarchy. The Revolution of 1905 was "crushed" by state violence and its leaders either killed or banished to Siberia but the Soviets, non-violently had already lit the spark of revolution that would (in 1917-18) bring Bolshevism to power.

What I posted isn't a theory of how communism would be brought about from the conditions of the society. It's merely a tactic. It doesn't seem like this tactic has ever been used - most of the revolutions of the past didn't use this 'instant-power-grab' tactic.

[The Douche]

I was simply making comparing and showing how revolutions often seem to work in a technologically developed world - positive feedback applies due to extensive communication technology development which wasn't the case.

Simply killing sleeping soldiers doesn't help, but killing them, capturing the government and then arming the proletariat helps communism due to the fact that then the proletariat would capture the means of production.

That is not how revolution happens, and that is not how the world works. It will not result in communism. Communism is not the result of military action, it is the result of workers educated through struggle.

[UnknownPerson]

That is not how revolution happens, and that is not how the world works. It will not result in communism. Communism is not the result of military action, it is the result of workers educated through struggle.

I doubt 'peaceful' revolutions are efficient or possible at all if this is what you advocate. During a violent revolution workers would obviously be educated on why taking control of the means of production would improve their quality of life, and most of them probably already know that. Capturing the government (as well as banks) and using it's resources to fund the actual revolution obviously helps the process.

[Vendetta]

This is very true, but such revolutions might be possible as the US interventionism and world police bullshit will fade away with the fall of the Soviet Union.

What's that, Iraq? America's world police bullshit should've ended after the fall of the Soviet Union? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) ;)

[UnknownPerson]

What's that, Iraq? America's world police bullshit should've ended after the fall of the Soviet Union? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) ;)

That's why I used the term "fade away" - it's fading away gradually, but obviously it will take time. The US imperialism and military fetish was mainly caused by the Cold War, and it's expected to gradually fade away as the time passes.

[La Comédie Noire]

Not to mention most of the smaller states are spoken for by bigger states in their region or even by two rival imperialist powers. Even if you did succeed for awhile, how long before some imperialist funded war lords gunned you down?

[Blake's Baby]

So, have you even looked at world history since 1945?

This is a crackpot version of the 'Red Menace' AKA 'the Domino Effect'. Only, instead of it being a paranoid fantasy to justify American intervention in the devloping world, it's now a tactic for a successful revolution. Oh joy, now, 44 years after the killing of Che Guevara, the leftists have decided to copy Henry Kissenger. He would I'm sure be pleased by the irony.

[The Douche]

During a violent revolution workers would obviously be educated on why taking control of the means of production would improve their quality of life, and most of them probably already know that. Capturing the government (as well as banks) and using it's resources to fund the actual revolution obviously helps the process.

Why would they carry out revolution if they don't understand it? You think they're going to just do what you tell them because you invaded their country and killed a bunch of soldiers? I don't get it.

And no, most people do not realize that communism is in their best interests and that they can make it happen, if most realized that right now, then it would be happening. I hate to burst your bubble, but the workers of the world are not idly sitting by waiting for you to come lead them to victory.


The US imperialism and military fetish was mainly caused by the Cold War, and it's expected to gradually fade away as the time passes.

No, imperialism and militarism didn't come about just because some people thought it was cool and would be a good idea. (though it doesn't surprise me that you think imperialism was willed into existence, since you think communism can be willed into existence as well) Imperialism came to be, because capitalism necessitates the opening of new markets, thats why countries get invaded, not just because politicians in the US think it'll be fun.

[Sasha]

for some reason the OP's posts give me an vision of roving bands of communist vikings swooping in and plundering the wealth to finance more plunder expeditions...

next to all of the ethical questions (like doesnt this seem to take the vanguardism an bit to the extreme?) the most practical question would seem to be, how and where will you organize your army and how will you get to the targeted micro-state? how wil you deal with his friendly big neighbors? seen what happend with the uprising in bahrein? the bahreini army and police didnt stand an chance but it took the saudi-arab army only a few days to break the uprising brutally. and what about NATO and all the other treaty organizations? microstates can afford to be micro with an micro-army because they always have an big brother to watch their back.
you ask Sadam how well he fared after invading an micro-country...

[UnknownPerson]

Why would they carry out revolution if they don't understand it? You think they're going to just do what you tell them because you invaded their country and killed a bunch of soldiers? I don't get it.

And no, most people do not realize that communism is in their best interests and that they can make it happen, if most realized that right now, then it would be happening. I hate to burst your bubble, but the workers of the world are not idly sitting by waiting for you to come lead them to victory.



No, imperialism and militarism didn't come about just because some people thought it was cool and would be a good idea. (though it doesn't surprise me that you think imperialism was willed into existence, since you think communism can be willed into existence as well) Imperialism came to be, because capitalism necessitates the opening of new markets, thats why countries get invaded, not just because politicians in the US think it'll be fun.

At first, the party would have a lot of control, and distribute educational information. After this, the workers would be armed with the state funding to take over the means of production and establish a socialist society there.
Of course the US political interventionism was always there, but it hugely intensified with the start of the Cold War. More and more resources were allocated to it because of the Red Scare, as a method of 'fighting communism'.

[UnknownPerson]

for some reason the OP's posts give me an vision of roving bands of communist vikings swooping in and plundering the wealth to finance more plunder expeditions...

next to all of the ethical questions (like doesnt this seem to take the vanguardism an bit to the extreme?) the most practical question would seem to be, how and where will you organize your army and how will you get to the targeted micro-state? how wil you deal with his friendly big neighbors? seen what happend with the uprising in bahrein? the bahreini army and police didnt stand an chance but it took the saudi-arab army only a few days to break the uprising brutally. and what about NATO and all the other treaty organizations? microstates can afford to be micro with an micro-army because they always have an big brother to watch their back.
you ask Sadam how well he fared after invading an micro-country...

It's easy to get to the desired micro-state by buying low-cost airplane tickets. The militia would receive all the training it needs while still 'at home'. All the materials would be purchased in the microstate.

The militia in question wouldn't even have to be very big, as after destroying the primary military opposition it would be easy to capture the government with a not-so-trained group of people.

After that, the state resources would be used to get more loyal military force to the state (made up mainly of local leftists). After this is done, and relative civil stability is achieved, the workers would be educated and armed, so that they can take over the means of production and guard the revolution.

Afterward, the state could allocate resources for further coups in states like these - the more states are taken over, the more resources are available, the more powerful are the states that can be taken over.

[Sasha]

you must be trollin' right?

:blink:

[UnknownPerson]

So, have you even looked at world history since 1945?

This is a crackpot version of the 'Red Menace' AKA 'the Domino Effect'. Only, instead of it being a paranoid fantasy to justify American intervention in the devloping world, it's now a tactic for a successful revolution. Oh joy, now, 44 years after the killing of Che Guevara, the leftists have decided to copy Henry Kissenger. He would I'm sure be pleased by the irony.

Once again, I'm not saying that this is how things will happen and occur naturally - this is merely a tactic. Of course most of the leftist groups wouldn't bother doing this.

[UnknownPerson]

you must be trollin' right?

:blink:

How so? What do you find absurd about this tactic? Is it merely it being ethically unacceptable? If so, I understand.

[Sasha]

blanquism makes an more sensible tactic than this....

[UnknownPerson]

blanquism makes an more sensible tactic than this....

Aren't those tactics essentially the same? I'm doing nothing more than elaborating Blanquism.

[Sasha]

yes, but in your elaboration we might as well ride magic pink unicorns that shit rainbows

[UnknownPerson]

yes, but in your elaboration we might as well ride magic pink unicorns that shit rainbows

Please elaborate. The main danger is the revolution being crushed, but this isn't a significant one for the 'political distant' states. I agree that this tactic isn't ethical at all.

[Sasha]

a. its not an revolution, its an coup.
b. external coups are not known to thrive..

[UnknownPerson]

a. its not an revolution, its an coup.
b. external coups are not known to thrive..

A revolution would be brought about after the coup, as I've already mentioned. The main objective of the newly established government would be educating and arming the workers.

[Tommy4ever]

European and Carribbean microstates tend to be basically tax havens with huge numbers of wealthy people - they are very rich places. Plus, these states intervention from their neighbours in the event of a coup. For example, the French Army actually as the protectors of duties in Monaco.

[Aleenik]

This is not an exaggeration. This is literally one of the worst ideas I have ever heard in relation to Communism.

First of all it's just plain wrong. Second of all revolutions don't work like that. Mercenaries take over government and then expect the people to not only follow them, but rework society altogether? Laughable. And thirdly, another nation would likely come in to crush the "revolution" which wasn't really a revolution anyways and was actually a Coup d'état.

[Susurrus]

This reminds me of when American Nazis tried to invade the Dominican Republic. (Incidentally, one of them went on to create a certain internet forum.)

[UnknownPerson]

European and Carribbean microstates tend to be basically tax havens with huge numbers of wealthy people - they are very rich places. Plus, these states intervention from their neighbours in the event of a coup. For example, the French Army actually as the protectors of duties in Monaco.

The 'luxury' micro-states with lots of political ties are obviously not good places to use this tactic on. Politically distant states with little relations are. These states don't have to be territorially small, they just have to have a small enough army (check my map for further reference).

[UnknownPerson]

This reminds me of when American Nazis tried to invade the Dominican Republic. (Incidentally, one of them went on to create a certain internet forum.)

Lol, WTF? Do you have a source? I find it hard to believe that a group like the American Nazis would actually be organized enough to pull off something like this.

[Susurrus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Dog

[Jose Gracchus]

Because it would be pointless? This thread is stupid. Someone shut this shit down.

[UnknownPerson]

Because it would be pointless? This thread is stupid. Someone shut this shit down.

Please elaborate why it would be pointless. Have you even read the thread, or just the title? After the coup d'etat, a revolution funded by the newly established government would follow, as the newly established government would educate and arm the workers.

[The Douche]

Please elaborate why it would be pointless. Have you even read the thread, or just the title? After the coup d'etat, a revolution funded by the newly established government would follow, as the newly established government would educate and arm the workers.

Have you read the thread? You haven't spoken to any of the issues anybody has raised, you keep repeating your silly plan.

Why do you think the people of this country would support you? Do you understand that communism is not just another form of government? It cannot just be applied because you have power. Communism is the result of working class struggle, if you come to a country, kill a few thousand people with bombs and chemical fucking weapons (hello war crime), put yourself in charge and say "no, natives, its cool, read these pamphlets", you will not end up with communism.

If you think communism can happen because you forced a population to read some pieces of literature why don't you go out on the street tomorrow, hand out 500 sheets, make those people hand out 500 etc until communism is achieved?

[bcbm]

The 'luxury' micro-states with lots of political ties are obviously not good places to use this tactic on. Politically distant states with little relations are. These states don't have to be territorially small, they just have to have a small enough army (check my map for further reference).

what state do you imagine this could be a serious possibility in?

[UnknownPerson]

Have you read the thread? You haven't spoken to any of the issues anybody has raised, you keep repeating your silly plan.

Why do you think the people of this country would support you? Do you understand that communism is not just another form of government? It cannot just be applied because you have power. Communism is the result of working class struggle, if you come to a country, kill a few thousand people with bombs and chemical fucking weapons (hello war crime), put yourself in charge and say "no, natives, its cool, read these pamphlets", you will not end up with communism.

If you think communism can happen because you forced a population to read some pieces of literature why don't you go out on the street tomorrow, hand out 500 sheets, make those people hand out 500 etc until communism is achieved?

Actually, I've spoken virtually of every issue which has been raised.

Hardly anyone will be aware that the soldiers have been killed because most of the media centers will be taken over, and the media centers which claimed that it happened will say that it was a prank.

Because 500 people is a small part of the population, maybe? If I gave that piece of literature to every person, or at least the majority, of the country, as well as broadcasted the content on the state television all the time, and then armed them, then communism could probably be achieved.

You keep assuming too much and reading too little of my posts.

[The Douche]

Actually, I've spoken virtually of every issue which has been raised

No, you haven't. For instance, I asked why you think communism can be accomplished by you and your friends taking over the government of a foreign country. I asked you to explain why you don't view communism as coming from the struggle of the working class against capitalism.


Hardly anyone will be aware that the soldiers have been killed because most of the media centers will be taken over, and the media centers which claimed that it happened will say that it was a prank.

So you're going to brutally murder the citizens of another country, then take over their media, and force the media to print your ideas, and if they refuse, presumably execute them.


Because 500 people is a small part of the population, maybe?

So order each of them to do the same thing? I mean, according to your ideas, if you tell somebody what communism is, they instantly become communists and will put their lives on the line for communism. If you get 500, and each of them get 500, you'll have an entire country full of communists in a week, right?:rolleyes:


If I gave that piece of literature to every person, or at least the majority, of the country, as well as broadcasted the content on the state television all the time, and then armed them, then communism could probably be achieved.

Yeah yeah yeah, you keep making this assertion. But despite how many times people have asked why you think this is true, you don't explain yourself. Your ideas fly in the face of logic and of history.


You keep assuming too much and reading too little of my posts.

Actually, if you have been paying attention, you will notice that in this post (and in other posts) I have quoted your posts line by line countering your assertions.



Here's a question, what kind of actual steps have you taken to participate in the communist movement, or to contribute to revolution? It sounds to me like you have absolutely no experience with communism or the communist movement, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but you shouldn't be so arrogant, obviously you have a lot to learn, when everybody who comes into the thread, regardless of tendency tells you that you're wrong.

[Apoi_Viitor]

what state do you imagine this could be a serious possibility in?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru

If we got all of Revleft together I bet we could take them. :laugh:

[UnknownPerson]

No, you haven't. For instance, I asked why you think communism can be accomplished by you and your friends taking over the government of a foreign country. I asked you to explain why you don't view communism as coming from the struggle of the working class against capitalism.



So you're going to brutally murder the citizens of another country, then take over their media, and force the media to print your ideas, and if they refuse, presumably execute them.



So order each of them to do the same thing? I mean, according to your ideas, if you tell somebody what communism is, they instantly become communists and will put their lives on the line for communism. If you get 500, and each of them get 500, you'll have an entire country full of communists in a week, right?:rolleyes:



Yeah yeah yeah, you keep making this assertion. But despite how many times people have asked why you think this is true, you don't explain yourself. Your ideas fly in the face of logic and of history.



Actually, if you have been paying attention, you will notice that in this post (and in other posts) I have quoted your posts line by line countering your assertions.



Here's a question, what kind of actual steps have you taken to participate in the communist movement, or to contribute to revolution? It sounds to me like you have absolutely no experience with communism or the communist movement, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but you shouldn't be so arrogant, obviously you have a lot to learn, when everybody who comes into the thread, regardless of tendency tells you that you're wrong.


"I asked why you think communism can be accomplished by you and your friends taking over the government of a foreign country" - This is already a sign of you either not reading or understanding my post. I never implied that I, or any of my friends were going to do this. I don't want to do this and have no intention to do this. Please read my posts more careful and at least try to understand them.

I believe that the bottom-to-top approach to communism would take so much time that the awareness of communism would completely die out in the society, as communism seems to be dying out more and more. I don't want this to continue.

"If you get 500, and each of them get 500, you'll have an entire country full of communists in a week, right?" - No, this isn't how it works. It's more like the government would spread the message to thousands, and keep the information campaign for a while, until most of the population has been converted to communism. Without a doubt, studying communism takes time, and you shouldn't put words in my mouth like that. It's pretty natural for people to fight against ideas they find ethically repugnant, so I understand why you attack my tactic so much.

"Yeah yeah yeah, you keep making this assertion. But despite how many times people have asked why you think this is true, you don't explain yourself. Your ideas fly in the face of logic and of history." - I think it's true due to the fact that it's rational to expect people to be converted after being bombarded with information regarding the topic from virtually every aspect of the society for long enough.

"Actually, if you have been paying attention, you will notice that in this post (and in other posts) I have quoted your posts line by line countering your assertions." - No, you completely distorted and misinterpreted them, and went as far as implying that I and my friends were for some unknown reason planning to do this, which is simply not true.

"Here's a question, what kind of actual steps have you taken to participate in the communist movement, or to contribute to revolution? It sounds to me like you have absolutely no experience with communism or the communist movement, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but you shouldn't be so arrogant, obviously you have a lot to learn, when everybody who comes into the thread, regardless of tendency tells you that you're wrong." - Those are ad-hominem attacks. I've spent a significant amount of time and effort making video material criticizing capitalism.

[The Douche]

I never implied that I, or any of my friends were going to do this. I don't want to do this and have no intention to do this. Please read my posts more careful and at least try to understand them.

Don't get it twisted. This is irrelevant, you're arguing that this is a good plan, you're advocating it. Defend it, the pro-noun I use doesn't matter. And in my defense, you do refer to this as "your tactic".


I believe that the bottom-to-top approach to communism would take so much time that the awareness of communism would completely die out in the society

There is no such think as "top-to-bottom" communism. (see the Original draft resolution for the IWMA, aka the first international, which included Karl Marx) The very first line is completely opposed to what you're saying.


as communism seems to be dying out more and more.

Have you taken a look at Greece or Spain lately?


It's more like the government would spread the message to thousands, and keep the information campaign for a while, until most of the population has been converted to communism.

This is an assertion which you constantly make but don't provide any support for. You continue to claim that if you tell people about communism they will become communists. As I said already, this flies in the face of both, logic, and history. You need to support this assertion, as your entire proposition rests on it.


I think it's true due to the fact that it's rational to expect people to be converted after being bombarded with information regarding the topic from virtually every aspect of the society for long enough.

Why do you think they wouldn't kill you, y'know, considering, if you did this, you would be a mass-murdering dictator?

Communism is an organic result of working class struggle, it is through struggle that the working class learns how to organize itself and carry out the revolutionary process which reorganizes society. It can't be taught in a class, and you can't declare communism into existence. If you knew what communism was, you would understand this.


No, you completely distorted and misinterpreted them

What have I distorted or misinterpreted?


and went as far as implying that I and my friends were for some unknown reason planning to do this, which is simply not true.

You literally just called it "my tactic":


so I understand why you attack my tactic so much.

So if its "yours" its pretty reasonable to frame the conversation in a manner that you would be involved in it. As if it really matters if you plan to do it or if you don't, because its not going to happen, and not going to be taken seriously as a tactic.



And lastly you have no fucking clue why I am attacking your tactic so much... obviously.

[UnknownPerson]

Don't get it twisted. This is irrelevant, you're arguing that this is a good plan, you're advocating it. Defend it, the pro-noun I use doesn't matter. And in my defense, you do refer to this as "your tactic".



There is no such think as "top-to-bottom" communism. (see the Original draft resolution for the IWMA, aka the first international, which included Karl Marx) The very first line is completely opposed to what you're saying.



Have you taken a look at Greece or Spain lately?



This is an assertion which you constantly make but don't provide any support for. You continue to claim that if you tell people about communism they will become communists. As I said already, this flies in the face of both, logic, and history. You need to support this assertion, as your entire proposition rests on it.



Why do you think they wouldn't kill you, y'know, considering, if you did this, you would be a mass-murdering dictator? I'm simply discussing the issue hypothetically.

Communism is an organic result of working class struggle, it is through struggle that the working class learns how to organize itself and carry out the revolutionary process which reorganizes society. It can't be taught in a class, and you can't declare communism into existence. If you knew what communism was, you would understand this.



What have I distorted or misinterpreted?



You literally just called it "my tactic":



So if its "yours" its pretty reasonable to frame the conversation in a manner that you would be involved in it. As if it really matters if you plan to do it or if you don't, because its not going to happen, and not going to be taken seriously as a tactic.



And lastly you have no fucking clue why I am attacking your tactic so much... obviously.

To begin with, no, if I referred to it as my tactic, you can't say that I and my friends are planning to use it. That's like saying that if someone has identified HIV they want to have it.

"There is no such think as "top-to-bottom" communism. (see the Original draft resolution for the IWMA, aka the first international, which included Karl Marx) The very first line is completely opposed to what you're saying." - Exactly, this is why this coup d'etat wouldn't be a communist society at first, and then create a communist society by arming and educating the workers from the top.

"Have you taken a look at Greece or Spain lately?" - Yes, and some temporary occurrences don't change the fact that communism is dying out.

"Why do you think they wouldn't kill you, y'know, considering, if you did this, you would be a mass-murdering dictator?" - Because I would neither participate in it nor be a mass-murdering dictator.

"Communism is an organic result of working class struggle, it is through struggle that the working class learns how to organize itself and carry out the revolutionary process which reorganizes society. It can't be taught in a class, and you can't declare communism into existence. If you knew what communism was, you would understand this." - Not necessarily. Alternative tactics are possible.

"This is an assertion which you constantly make but don't provide any support for. You continue to claim that if you tell people about communism they will become communists. As I said already, this flies in the face of both, logic, and history. You need to support this assertion, as your entire proposition rests on it." - If you will educate people on communism, and by that I mean actually educate, most of them will turn out communists. I believe it for the same reason I believe that when you cut a person's head off he or she dies.

"So if its "yours" its pretty reasonable to frame the conversation in a manner that you would be involved in it. As if it really matters if you plan to do it or if you don't, because its not going to happen, and not going to be taken seriously as a tactic." - Look up my previous argument on this. If someone has identified HIV, it doesn't mean they want to have HIV. Yet, it's still their identification.

"And lastly you have no fucking clue why I am attacking your tactic so much... obviously." - Exactly.

[The Douche]

Why didn't somebody stop me from feeding this troll earlier?

[UnknownPerson]

Why didn't somebody stop me from feeding this troll earlier?

Troll? Please point out why you believe I'm a troll.

[Blackscare]

You know, I should trash this thread, but I won't. This is absolutely hilarious. I like how OP assumes that every single one of the people in this thread basically calling him a dolt are doing so purely on ethical grounds, as if his plan couldn't possibly be, you know, stupid.


Anyway, someone less lazy than me should put this in the Revleft's greatest hits thread, I smell a classic. I, for one, welcome the new Psy.

[UnknownPerson]

You know, I should trash this thread, but I won't. This is absolutely hilarious. I like how OP assumes that every single one of the people in this thread basically calling him a dolt are doing so purely on ethical grounds, as if his plan couldn't possibly be, you know, stupid.


Anyway, someone less lazy than me should put this in the Revleft's greatest hits thread, I smell a classic. I, for one, welcome the new Psy.

I have so far refuted every single argument against this plan. Could you please bother actually arguing instead of calling this plan stupid?

[CommunityBeliever]

Comrade UnknownPerson has totally demolished the idea of Socialism in One Country as hitherto profounded. His new policy of Socialism in One Microstate shall be the guiding light of the liberation struggles of the world proletariat.

We should add South Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sudan) to our map as it may be another to consider conquering.

[UnknownPerson]

Comrade UnknownPerson has totally demolished the idea of Socialism in One Country and replaced it with the much more sensible policy of Socialism in One Microstate.

On a more serious note, your map is out of date since it doesn't include South Sudan, which is another microstate your imaginary mercenary forces should consider taking over.

I never implied that I was ever going to do it, this is an entirely hypothetical scenario. Of course I don't imply that a world revolution will somehow come about from this, but I do believe that a micro-state can become socialist as a result of such an effort.

[CommunityBeliever]

I never implied that I was ever going to do it, this is an entirely hypothetical scenario. Of course I don't imply that a world revolution will somehow come about from this, but I do believe that a micro-state can become socialist as a result of such an effort.

Socialism is a worldwide effort, not something that occurs in one country much less one micro-state. Socialist revolution must be international.

You have failed to account for how this won't just lead to another Grenada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada). The capitalist countries will gladly invade your micro-state and eliminate your government. You probably will never have the time to build socialism, or to build anything for that matter.

[UnknownPerson]

Socialism is a worldwide effort, not something that occurs in one country much less one micro-state. Socialist revolution must be international.

You have failed to account for how this won't just lead to another Grenada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada). The capitalist countries will gladly invade your micro-state and eliminate your government. You probably will never have the time to build socialism, or to build anything for that matter.

Because it will be done in the 'politically distant states' which don't have much contact with the rest of the world. All the media output would be highly controlled after the coup d'etat. 1/2 of the time, an invasion would occur, but statistically speaking, such a tactic is still worth trying. The invasion probability could be reduced by accepting several deals with several capitalist countries which might be the first to invade.

If all the socialist countries would be invaded, there probably wouldn't be many self-proclaimed socialist states on the surface of the globe today. We don't live during the Cold War.

[The Douche]

I have so far refuted every single argument against this plan. Could you please bother actually arguing instead of calling this plan stupid?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmi7fsj4p1qauv2i.jpg

[CommunityBeliever]

Because it will be done in the 'politically distant states' which don't have much contact with the rest of the world. All the media output would be highly controlled after the coup d'etat. 1/2 of the time, an invasion would occur, but statistically speaking, such a tactic is still worth trying. The invasion probability could be reduced by accepting several deals with several capitalist countries which might be the first to invade. How do you plan to control "all media output" in the age of the Internet and globalisation?

If there was something like the Soviet Union willing to give you nuclear support, that would probably deter imperialist invasion, but don't pretend that other capitalist countries are going to come to your aid if you are advocating socialism.

[UnknownPerson]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmi7fsj4p1qauv2i.jpg

And now you're resorting to personal attacks against me? So far, I have actually refuted every single argument against my plan.

[Forward Union]

Because then we'd have to run them and they are useless, have no industry or global power...

[UnknownPerson]

How do you plan to control "all media output" in the age of the Internet and globalisation?

If there was something like the Soviet Union willing to give you nuclear support, that would probably deter imperialist invasion, but don't pretend that other capitalist countries are going to come to your aid if you are advocating socialism.

What about the nowadays Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, North Korea...? They aren't getting invaded after the Soviet Union fell.

The media output would be controlled during the transition phase by simply not letting most of the population use Internet.

[The Douche]

So far, I have actually refuted every single argument against my plan.


So far, I have actually refuted every single argument against my plan.


So far, I have actually refuted every single argument against my plan.


So far, I have actually refuted every single argument against my plan.

http://www.protias.com/Pictures/Super%20Troopers/im%20freaking%20out%20man.jpg

[UnknownPerson]

Because then we'd have to run them and they are useless, have no industry or global power...

After taking advantage of a large enough economy one would go ahead and start making nuclear weapons, and threaten to EMP the US, but never actually EMP it. EMP has a potential of turning the US back to the pre-Industrial age with one small nuke. Additional funding and technologies for this could be asked for from various 'Rouge States' and states which would be willing to keep the US foreign policy in control using a proxy-state.

[UnknownPerson]

http://www.protias.com/Pictures/Super%20Troopers/im%20freaking%20out%20man.jpg


You seem to be the main noise-maker in this thread. Why don't you resort to having a debate instead of randomly pasting useless images which aren't funny at all?

[The Douche]

You seem to be the main noise-maker in this thread. Why don't you resort to having a debate instead of randomly pasting useless images which aren't funny at all?

Because, out of 29,000 members, there are only 1,800.

[UnknownPerson]

Because, out of 29,000 members, there are only 1,800.

Now you're trying to express another unfunny meme image using text:
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/8f5/2ef/ac2/resized/philosoraptor-meme-generator-out-of-29-000-members-there-are-only-1-800-14097e.jpg

[The Douche]

Let me just organize your plan in a manner which I might be able to understand better:

step 1: Murder thousands of people with bombs and chemical weapons
step 2: Close the internet and pump people full of abstract political theory
step 3: ??????
step 4: COMMUNISM!

[CommunityBeliever]

What about the nowadays Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, North Korea...? They aren't getting invaded after the Soviet Union fell.

The U.S has a blockade against Cuba and they attempted multiple times to lead a coup against Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. There was the Korean war, which is sometimes considered to be ongoing, and there was the Vietnam war. Its not like the U.S has stopped its imperialist programs just because they doesn't have an invasion force in every single country.


The media output would be controlled during the transition phase by simply not letting most of the population use Internet.

This is silly.

[CommunityBeliever]

EMP has a potential of turning the US back to the pre-Industrial age with one small nuke. That would be genocide. We are trying to win the people over to the socialist cause, not kill them.

[UnknownPerson]

Let me just organize your plan in a manner which I might be able to understand better:

step 1: Murder thousands of people with bombs and chemical weapons
step 2: Close the internet and pump people full of abstract political theory
step 3: ??????
step 4: COMMUNISM!

No. No wonder you keep flaming, you don't even understand the plan.

Step 1: Destroy the military and most of the police force by using bombs and chemical weapons.

Step 2: Capture the government

Step 3: Block the Internet and other media access for most of the population and blame it on EMP, say that it damaged the phonelines because an external enemy tried to take off the newly established regime using EMP

Step 4: Implement a progressive tax and use it to make the power of the state stronger to make it stay in power

Step 5: Form a proper government made up of resident leftist and leftist who came there

Step 6: Start mass-producing weapons and make a huge loyal army

Step 7: Start educating people about communism by making them visit public education centers. They would be given some gifts or monetary bonus if they would. State television and radio would also keep educating them about communism and why the means of production must be owned by the workers. People would be given pamphlets and books about communism as well. This stage would last some time, about a year or so.

Step 8: When people are educated enough about communism, start arming them, and make them take over the means of production and distribution.

Step 9: The old government fades and decentralized democratic economic planning takes place.

Step 10: ???

Step 11: No profit! Socialist mode of production!

[UnknownPerson]

That would be genocide. We are trying to win the people over to the socialist cause, not kill them.

As I said, only threatening would be used. An EMP exchange wouldn't take place.

[Blackscare]

... but I do believe that a micro-state can become socialist as a result of such an effort.

Ok, I'll bite. So you somehow think that microstates, or a string of them, presumably isolated island countries since you'd be somewhat less likely to be annihilated by the US army, will be able to succeed where the USSR and China failed in building socialism (and sustaining it).

Now, I'm no geographer, but I'm guessing that even if you did that in, say, 100 microstates ( way more than actually exist I believe), you'd still wind up with a lot less land than that of Russia alone. And Russia is extremely rich in a diverse array of resources, which these microstates are not. At best you have a place with deposits of phosphate or something that typically dry up within a few decades, hardly forming the material basis for developing industry on a large scale. Unless your vision of socialism/communism is basically agrarian, there's no hope that you could begin to even launch the project of building to communism through socialism. There's simply no material basis for it unless you plan on building railroads out of palm fronds and coconuts giligan style.


Keep in mind, Russia was just an area within the USSR, which also had numerous satellites and otherwise friendly countries economically integrated with it on a very large scale (probably the land mass and population of, say, Vietnam would wildly exceed the numbers you're looking at as well). And STILL they couldn't ultimately stem the tide of capitalist economic/military aggression. Yet somehow you're (I know, OMG WRONG PRONOUN) going to build socialism where vastly better equipped movements failed.

You're crazy like a fox, I'll give you that. I can only imagine you standing in front of some old WW1 era map-table going through the list of possible targets; "No, they have too many resources, it'll bring attention to us... nope, this one is too close to other countries to be totally safe.... I know! I'll pick the least relevant, poorest and most isolated semi-desolate island I can find! Nobody will stop me because there'll be absolutely nothing of any use for them there!". I see the genius of it man, I really do. I mean, what better place to build socialism (in the Marxist industrial sense) than a country that is totally isolated and reliant on foreign imports for whatever vestiges of modernity it may actually posses? Sure, your already sparse shipments of goods from the industrialized world will almost certainly dry up when shipping companies find out the island has been taken over by some teenage maniac, but that's just an opportunity! You can invent your own light bulbs, socialist ones!


Also, I like the gumption you have. You think big, you're not merely satisfied with participation in some piddly-ass first world "struggle" on the streets of eastbumfuck whocaresville, you want to fly across the planet and communize the shit out of some childlike and naive locals who need your guidance. They should have a word for that, how does "communialism" sound? What about "The red man's burden"? Sounds like progress to me! I mean, there are a few little barriers I'm sure you'd be able to obliterate, like the fact that people won't really like you since you came to their island, murdered their friends and family who were soldiers, took over the media and made them pretend that nothing had happened even though the government inexplicably changed overnight with a teenager from the US as head of state while everyone they knew in the military suddenly vanished. I mean, you could tell them that you sent them away to a nice farm where they could play with other soldiers from around the world.


I mean, it's a given that the people will ultimately grow to love you once you pump them full of ill-fitting marxist propaganda about building their tiny fruit export based micronation into a modern industrial power in absolute isolation from anyone save perhaps other extremely desolate islands several thousand kilometers away. No sense arguing that. Plus, all the locals get to make new friends when a bunch of random white people land and start killing people and talking about how they're there to help. Once they realize that you're murdering them and monopolizing their media for an ideology that has almost zero practical implications in their country they'll come over.


Curveballs abound. Where the thick-skulled rube would pick a target with at least some sort of strategic importance, you know better. Where a lesser man might waver and lose hope in the face of limited to non-existent natural resources or industry, you beast right on through that noob shit. You understand that the only way to win the hearts and minds of a people are to terrorize and alienate them (although if I may be so bold, I think you may have been influenced by Bush in that sense). Whereas the unimaginative might take historical precedence into account, or attempt to incorporate some sort of understanding of cause-and-effect in international politics before launching a make-shift island hopping campaign, you don't waste your time. A more self conscious person might be afraid to blatantly ignore their own points in the service of the greater good (like when you explained that information technology could create a cascading arab-spring type scenario [I can see the tweets now: "Half assed pseudo-imperialists coming to an island near you! Everyone, spontaneously have revolution imposed upon you tonight at 3 am in town square!"], and then went on to say that your hopes of success essentially rested on going relatively unnoticed by world powers who certainly wouldn't care about the happenings of island outpost countries around the worlds major maritime shipping lanes).


Sir, I applaud you.

[CommunityBeliever]

you don't even understand the plan.

I like your anti-capitalist spirit, but I think a better idea would be to support an actual Maoist revolutionary group, such as the Naxals.

[UnknownPerson]

Ok, I'll bite. So you somehow think that microstates, or a string of them, presumably isolated island countries since you'd be somewhat less likely to be annihilated by the US army, will be able to succeed where the USSR and China failed in building socialism (and sustaining it).

Now, I'm no geographer, but I'm guessing that even if you did that in, say, 100 microstates ( way more than actually exist I believe), you'd still wind up with a lot less land than that of Russia alone. And Russia is extremely rich in a diverse array of resources, which these microstates are not. At best you have a place with deposits of phosphate or something that typically dry up within a few decades, hardly forming the material basis for developing industry on a large scale. Unless your vision of socialism/communism is basically agrarian, there's no hope that you could begin to even launch the project of building to communism through socialism. There's simply no material basis for it unless you plan on building railroads out of palm fronds and coconuts giligan style.


Keep in mind, Russia was just an area within the USSR, which also had numerous satellites and otherwise friendly countries economically integrated with it on a very large scale (probably the land mass and population of, say, Vietnam would wildly exceed the numbers you're looking at as well). And STILL they couldn't ultimately stem the tide of capitalist economic/military aggression. Yet somehow you're (I know, OMG WRONG PRONOUN) going to build socialism where vastly better equipped movements failed.

You're crazy like a fox, I'll give you that. I can only imagine you standing in front of some old WW1 era map-table going through the list of possible targets; "No, they have too many resources, it'll bring attention to us... nope, this one is too close to other countries to be totally safe.... I know! I'll pick the least relevant, poorest and most isolated semi-desolate island I can find! Nobody will stop me because there'll be absolutely nothing of any use for them there!". I see the genius of it man, I really do. I mean, what better place to build socialism (in the Marxist industrial sense) than a country that is totally isolated and reliant on foreign imports for whatever vestiges of modernity it may actually posses? Sure, your already sparse shipments of goods from the industrialized world will almost certainly dry up when shipping companies find out the island has been taken over by some teenage maniac, but that's just an opportunity! You can invent your own light bulbs, socialist ones!


Also, I like the gumption you have. You think big, you're not merely satisfied with participation in some piddly-ass first world "struggle" on the streets of eastbumfuck whocaresville, you want to fly across the planet and communize the shit out of some childlike and naive locals who need your guidance. They should have a word for that, how does "communialism" sound? What about "The red man's burden"? Sounds like progress to me! I mean, there are a few little barriers I'm sure you'd be able to obliterate, like the fact that people won't really like you since you came to their island, murdered their friends and family who were soldiers, took over the media and made them pretend that nothing had happened even though the government inexplicably changed overnight with a teenager from the US as head of state while everyone they knew in the military suddenly vanished. I mean, you could tell them that you sent them away to a nice farm where they could play with other soldiers from around the world.


I mean, it's a given that the people will ultimately grow to love you once you pump them full of ill-fitting marxist propaganda about building their tiny fruit export based micronation into a modern industrial power in absolute isolation from anyone save perhaps other extremely desolate islands several thousand kilometers away. No sense arguing that. Plus, all the locals get to make new friends when a bunch of random white people land and start killing people and talking about how they're there to help. Once they realize that you're murdering them and monopolizing their media for an ideology that has almost zero practical implications in their country they'll come over.


Curveballs abound. Where the thick-skulled rube would pick a target with at least some sort of strategic importance, you know better. Where a lesser man might waver and lose hope in the face of limited to non-existent natural resources or industry, you beast right on through that noob shit. You understand that the only way to win the hearts and minds of a people are to terrorize and alienate them (although if I may be so bold, I think you may have been influenced by Bush in that sense). Whereas the unimaginative might take historical precedence into account, or attempt to incorporate some sort of understanding of cause-and-effect in international politics before launching a make-shift island hopping campaign, you don't waste your time. A more self conscious person might be afraid to blatantly ignore their own points in the service of the greater good (like when you explained that information technology could create a cascading arab-spring type scenario [I can see the tweets now: "Half assed pseudo-imperialists coming to an island near you! Everyone, spontaneously have revolution imposed upon you tonight at 3 am in town square!"], and then went on to say that your hopes of success essentially rested on going relatively unnoticed by world powers who certainly wouldn't care about the happenings of island outpost countries around the worlds major maritime shipping lanes).


Sir, I applaud you.


Most of the companies wouldn't stop trading just because some state is socialist, so your argument doesn't apply. By your logic, Cuba can't sustain itself at all, which isn't the case. You're using 'their' too broadly. Most of the people wouldn't have relatives in the military. It could be said that the state was invaded by fascists who tried to overthrow it and that we're helping to get revenge on the fascists who killed some of the people's relatives. People wouldn't be aware of the government actions as the media would be monopolized to begin with. The quality of life of an average person would be improved even during the transition stage by using progressive taxation, so most of the people would obviously support the government.

[Rocky Rococo]

You're doing radical microstate wrong. Here's the 100% bomb-free version:

Tristan da Cunha (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchy-tristan-da-t59124/index.html)

[Blackscare]

Most of the companies wouldn't stop trading just because some state is socialist, so your argument doesn't apply. By your logic, Cuba can't sustain itself at all, which isn't the case.

This is about a half-step above the "WAAAA I NEVER SAID I WAS GONNA DO IT" move in terms of lame cop-outs. First of all, what you said is an assertion that has no basis in history in reality. Historically, companies tend to do less trading with countries that they're afraid might nationalize their shit or that seem unstable. Also, that point was far from the basis of my entire argument anyway.

Also, let's say that you do still at least have access to ships that will bring you shit. You still don't have the means to raise the sufficient excess capital to industrialize unless you plan on saving money from coconut sales for the next few thousand years. You're still reliant on infrequent shipments (even between you and other isolate countries), which is not a basis of a viable non-coconut centric economy.


Also, Cuba is a fuck ton larger than what you're talking about and already was semi-industrialized by the time the revolution came. They have man power as well, something you wouldn't have much of.



Anyway, if you're going to arrogantly demand that cmoney et al respond individually respond to every asinine point you make, you could at least do the same. Picking out one little (assumed and untrue) point and rejecting it while ignoring about 5 paragraphs of text does not constitute "resorting to debate" (as you put it) in my book.

[Blackscare]

You're using 'their' too broadly. Most of the people wouldn't have relatives in the military. It could be said that the state was invaded by fascists who tried to overthrow it and that we're helping to get revenge on the fascists who killed some of the people's relatives. People wouldn't be aware of the government actions as the media would be monopolized to begin with.

Dude, a micronation is basically like a small town. You think you're actually going to be able to pull off such an hilariously half-assed ruse by cutting off the internet when such information would spread simply by word of mouth in the first place? And I'm guessing that in a very small country with little population, killing off the entire military might effect just a slightly higher proportion of the country than you think.


So people are supposed to believe that, one day out of nowhere, FASCISTS that no one ever saw invaded and were overthrown later that afternoon by COMMUNISTS, also from abroad? And they're going to believe it?


I know you're trolling, I just want to see how far you can dance.

[UnknownPerson]

This is about a half-step above the "WAAAA I NEVER SAID I WAS GONNA DO IT" move in terms of lame cop-outs. First of all, what you said is an assertion that has no basis in history in reality. Historically, companies tend to do less trading with countries that they're afraid might nationalize their shit or that seem unstable. Also, that point was far from the basis of my entire argument anyway.

Also, let's say that you do still at least have access to ships that will bring you shit. You still don't have the means to raise the sufficient excess capital to industrialize unless you plan on saving money from coconut sales for the next few thousand years. You're still reliant on infrequent shipments (even between you and other isolate countries), which is not a basis of a viable non-coconut centric economy.


Also, Cuba is a fuck ton larger than what you're talking about and already was semi-industrialized by the time the revolution came. They have man power as well, something you wouldn't have much of.



Anyway, if you're going to arrogantly demand that cmoney et al respond individually respond to every asinine point you make, you could at least do the same. Picking out one little (assumed and untrue) point and rejecting it while ignoring about 5 paragraphs of text does not constitute "resorting to debate" (as you put it) in my book.

To begin with, countries with a small military would be targeted. There are several resource-rich countries with a small military force. These countries could easily be overthrown. After they're overthrown, more resources are available to overthrow more countries. This would go on until we have an area which can self-sustain with weak imports. Most of the states chosen would already be industrialized.

I keep editing my last reply, adding more details. I submitted it too early without properly reading it at first, because I wanted to reserve a place for the reply while answering others.

[Impulse97]

Holy shit. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

This has got to be one of the most asinine and downright absurd ideas I've ever heard. You have no effing clue what communism is or how to go about achieving it. Try reading some Marx next time your at the library, you might enjoy it.:rolleyes:

1) You cannot, force communism on the working class.

2) You can't just pass out booklets and brainwash people into supporting you.

3) People, don't become class conscious over night by reading pamphlets handed out by the armed force that has just slaughtered 90% of their government.

Stop repeating yourself, you refuse to counter any argument and on the off chance you do, it makes no sense. I have read your posts and I'd love to see things from your point of view, but I'm afraid I can't stick my head that far up my ass.

[UnknownPerson]

Holy shit. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

This has got to be one of the most asinine and downright absurd ideas I've ever heard. You have no effing clue what communism is or how to go about achieving it. Try reading some Marx next time your at the library, you might enjoy it.:rolleyes:

1) You cannot, force communism on the working class.

2) You can't just pass out booklets and brainwash people into supporting you.

3) People, don't become class conscious over night by reading pamphlets handed out by the armed force that has just slaughtered 90% of their government.

Stop repeating yourself, you refuse to counter any argument and on the off chance you do, it makes no sense. I have read your posts and I'd love to see things from your point of view, but I'm afraid I can't stick my head that far up my ass.




Dude, a micronation is basically like a small town. You think you're actually going to be able to pull off such an hilariously half-assed ruse by cutting off the internet when such information would spread simply by word of mouth in the first place? And I'm guessing that in a very small country with little population, killing off the entire military might effect just a slightly higher proportion of the country than you think.


So people are supposed to believe that, one day out of nowhere, FASCISTS that no one ever saw invaded and were overthrown later that afternoon by COMMUNISTS, also from abroad? And they're going to believe it?


I know you're trolling, I just want to see how far you can dance.

Language has several properties which pre-determine the meaning of the context. In other words, even if essentially the definitions are the same, one can make the same content sound very ridicule by picking different terms, exploiting that property of language. When we will unleash our propaganda campaign, we will do the complete opposite, so it will obviously sound far more believable. We might say that some state nearby attacked the state the group in question is overthrowing, and blew up it's military using air-bombs. The communists could say that they came as a government which has been formed to help the state to pay back on these enemies, and that the past government was loyal to the country which attacked, so it had to be overthrown.

[Blackscare]

Language has several properties which pre-determine the meaning of the context. In other words, even if essentially the definitions are the same, one can make the same content sound very ridicule by picking different terms, exploiting that property of language. When we will unleash our propaganda campaign, we will do the complete opposite, so it will obviously sound far more believable. We might say that some state nearby attacked the state the group in question is overthrowing, and blew up it's military using air-bombs. The communists could say that they came as a government which has been formed to help the state to pay back on these enemies, and that the past government was loyal to the country which attacked, so it had to be overthrown.

wat

[UnknownPerson]

wat

I'm sorry, but can you read?

[Aleenik]

Not being able to force Communism onto people reminds me of a quote I recently saw.

“Imposed communism would be the most detestable tyranny that the human mind could conceive. And free and voluntary communism is ironical if one has not the right and the possibility to live in a different regime, collectivist, mutualist, individualist — as one wishes, always on condition that there is no oppression or exploitation of others”

-Errico Malatesta

[UnknownPerson]

Holy shit. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

This has got to be one of the most asinine and downright absurd ideas I've ever heard. You have no effing clue what communism is or how to go about achieving it. Try reading some Marx next time your at the library, you might enjoy it.:rolleyes:

1) You cannot, force communism on the working class.

2) You can't just pass out booklets and brainwash people into supporting you.

3) People, don't become class conscious over night by reading pamphlets handed out by the armed force that has just slaughtered 90% of their government.

Stop repeating yourself, you refuse to counter any argument and on the off chance you do, it makes no sense. I have read your posts and I'd love to see things from your point of view, but I'm afraid I can't stick my head that far up my ass.

1) Some top-to-bottom actions are forcing when concerning communism, maybe even most of them. Some aren't. What I advise aren't. I advise the workers being re-educated by the top, not forced communism on.

2) Exactly! It will be a long and elaborate educational process. An entire educational industry would be established, and it will take years.

3) Exactly, also see 2 and read my other posts. People wouldn't be aware of the fact that their government got slaughtered because the media would be the first to get taken over.

Is 97 in the end of your name your birth date? Because that would explain the personal attacks.

[UnknownPerson]

Not to mention, we could pretend as holding some ideology or point of view which most of the people actively support, to gain their support. Any uprising would be stopped to begin with because the state would almost instantly start building up a huge loyal military force, even in case of an information leak, which is highly unlikely.

[Impulse97]

I'm sorry, but can you read?

Have you considered seeing a psychiatrist?

This has to go down in history as one of the best trolls. :rolleyes:

[UnknownPerson]

Have you considered seeing a psychiatrist?

This has to go down in history as one of the best trolls. :rolleyes:

Why? Because a few reformists aren't happy about this tactic? There's no "tactic creating psychiatric disorder" as far as I know.

[Impulse97]

1) Some top-to-bottom actions are forcing when concerning communism, maybe even most of them. Some aren't. What I advise aren't. I advise the workers being re-educated by the top, not forced communism on.

Yea , that's called Leninism and it doesn't work.


Is 97 in the end of your name your birth date? Because that would explain the personal attacks.No, it's not my birth year, but I suppose it's a few points higher than your IQ.

Reformists? Your the reformist. That plan doesn't have a hint of Marxist or scientific thought in it! It's entirely illogical and impossible.

[Q]

I wish UnknownPerson and his band of thugs coupers revolutionaries (sic) all the best on his endeavour to seize the reigns of power in the micro-states. Please don't shy from reporting back from the many gains you made on behalf of the working class of (tick off applicable): Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, Vatican City, Bahrein, Qatar, several Caraibian islands, Guyana, Suriname, Iceland and Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand).

From there on the rest of the world will be a cakewalk.

[UnknownPerson]

Yea , that's called Leninism and it doesn't work.

No, it's not my birth year, but I suppose it's a few points higher than your IQ.

Reformists? Your the reformist. That plan doesn't have a hint of Marxist or scientific thought in it! It's entirely illogical and impossible.

It actually works.

I have been tested by a professional neuropsychologist to have a non-verbal IQ of 156 and a verbal IQ off the charts, which is above 164.

No, I'm not a reformist, I'm revolutionary - just two stage revolutionary.

[Revy]

If the "microstates" haven't achieved revolution, it's for the same reason that large states haven't. What makes you think a revolutionary group can take control through terrorism and rule over the people, who don't support them. Is that revolution?

[Revy]

I have been tested by a professional neuropsychologist to have a non-verbal IQ of 156 and a verbal IQ off the charts, which is above 164.


:rolleyes:

I bet you shit diamonds too and piss champagne...
why don't you tell us more about how better you are than the rest of us dumb simple folk.

[Nox]

I think people on this thread have been very harsh to you, I think you're posing a genuine question/situation here, but to be honest I think it's whack.

[UnknownPerson]

If the "microstates" haven't achieved revolution, it's for the same reason that large states haven't. What makes you think a revolutionary group can take control through terrorism and rule over the people, who don't support them. Is that revolution?

Because the ruling group would lie in order to get support, and then start an actual revolution by arming the workers and educating them.

[Nox]

:rolleyes:

I bet you shit diamonds too and piss champagne...
why don't you tell us more about how better you are than the rest of us dumb simple folk.

w8w6dOkrzV4

[bcbm]

I have so far refuted every single argument against this plan. Could you please bother actually arguing instead of calling this plan stupid?

there's nothing to argue. communism is the product of the contradictions within capitalism that produce struggle between the bosses and the workers. the only way communism comes is the workers defeating the bosses in this struggle. communism is not the product of a coup combined with 'education' (from your plan i would call it brainwashing). there is no fast track (though things can change quick) and there is no substitute for the mass action of workers. full stop, that's it. so yes, your plan is stupid and has nothing to do with communism. the end.

[bcbm]

Because the ruling group would lie in order to get support


the communists disdain to conceal their views and aims

maybe you should read the old man sometime?

[UnknownPerson]

there's nothing to argue. communism is the product of the contradictions within capitalism that produce struggle between the bosses and the workers. the only way communism comes is the workers defeating the bosses in this struggle. communism is not the product of a coup combined with 'education' (from your plan i would call it brainwashing). there is no fast track (though things can change quick) and there is no substitute for the mass action of workers. full stop, that's it. so yes, your plan is stupid and has nothing to do with communism. the end.

Mass action of workers would be provoked by the government due to education and gun distribution, as I've already said many times.

[bcbm]

provoked by the government against whom? and once again, still missing the 'class struggle' element there. communism is a product of conditions not willpower

[UnknownPerson]

provoked by the government against whom? and once again, still missing the 'class struggle' element there. communism is a product of conditions not willpower

Against the bourgeoisie, and against the private property of the means of productions. Workers would take over the means of production once they're armed and educated.

[CommunityBeliever]

In revolutionary warfare various tactics must be employed, including targeting the weak links of imperialism (which may happen to be microstates), however, ultimately revolution must have an international orientation, and for us to be contained to a small microstate would be a major defeat.

[Nox]

How will you run a Communist society in a place that has, literally, no natural resources?

[Delenda Carthago]

How will you run a Communist society in a place that has, literally, no natural resources?

From "socialism in one state" to "socialism to one microstate".

[CommunityBeliever]

From "socialism in one state" to "socialism to one microstate". http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2195683&postcount=60

[Nox]

From "socialism in one state" to "socialism to one microstate".

From socialism in one microstate, to socialism in one building!

[CommunityBeliever]

From socialism in one microstate, to socialism in one building! Socialism in one atom!

[bcbm]

Against the bourgeoisie, and against the private property of the means of productions. Workers would take over the means of production once they're armed and educated.

most nations with small armies probably don't have much in the way of 'means of productions,' and i find it somewhat unlikely that if they did the owners of those would stick around while the government started going on and on about communism and making people learn about it

[Tomhet]

OP where exactly does the WORKING CLASS of those countries decide to have had enough of capitalism, and by their own accord, overthrow the capitalists? I think you're missing something basic here..

[CommunityBeliever]

Antarctica has almost no military presence there due to the Antarctic Treaty, so we could totally conquer there ez and then collectivise all the means of productions.

[Nox]

Socialism in one atom!

Socialism in one subatomic particle

[DarkPast]

Antarctica has almost no military presence there due to the Antarctic Treaty, so we could totally conquer there ez and then collectivise all the means of productions.

http://www.openclipart.org/image/250px/svg_to_png/commie_tux_hammer_sickle.png

[UnknownPerson]

Socialism in one subatomic particle

Socialism in one photon.

[UnknownPerson]

Antarctica has almost no military presence there due to the Antarctic Treaty, so we could totally conquer there ez and then collectivise all the means of productions.

There aren't many means of production to collectivize there, and it couldn't be used to spread revolution. Industrial states with a small military are good targets however.

[Sasha]

There aren't many means of production to collectivize there, and it couldn't be used to spread revolution. Industrial states with a small military are good targets however.


time to name names dude, propose a nation so we can make this "discussion" a bit more practical...

[UnknownPerson]

time to name names dude, propose a nation so we can make this "discussion" a bit more practical...

I don't know... Mongolia, for example. It has a very small military. It could rely on international trade for the resources it needs.

[Sensible Socialist]

I don't know... Mongolia, for example. It has a very small military.
The base for worldwide communist revolution is...Mongolia? :confused: We could collectivize...the desert, I guess.

Edit: What would stop China from blowing us to bits?

[UnknownPerson]

The base for worldwide communist revolution is...Mongolia? :confused: We could collectivize...the desert, I guess.

It wouldn't be a base for a worldwide communist revolution of course, and I never implies it would be. Up to 2-3 more states could be taken over with the domino effect this way, but not more. Huge resistance would be met if the domino effect would continue.

[Sensible Socialist]

It wouldn't be a base for a worldwide communist revolution of course, and I never implies it would be. Up to 2-3 more states could be taken over with the domino effect this way, but not more. Huge resistance would be met if the domino effect would continue.
Why do you assume a domino effect would happen? Class consciousness isn't inspired by a coup of single country. Nevermind the fact that the question still remains: how would you prevent a powerful military crushing the "revolution?"

[UnknownPerson]

Why do you assume a domino effect would happen? Class consciousness isn't inspired by a coup of single country. Nevermind the fact that the question still remains: how would you prevent a powerful military crushing the "revolution?"

Because according to my tactic (and not a theory of how it will all naturally come about) the government of this country would allocate a great deal of funding for further coups to expand the size of the economy it has under control. After this, more states could be overthrown using that larger economy and a larger military can be made, and so on. But of course, we can't just go like that to infinity, because we will encounter significant military apposition after 2 to 3 of such coups.

A powerful military opposition can't be opposed for a long while, until all of the working class is armed in this socialist block. In fact, 1/2 of the time such a domino effect would be stopped by military intervention.

[Sensible Socialist]

Because according to my tactic (and not a theory of how it will all naturally come about) the government of this country would allocate a great deal of funding for further coups to expand the size of the economy it has under control.
Do you know how fast the cruise missiles would be flying if there was a rebel government declaring war on capitalism in other countries and actively working to overthrow more governments? It doesn't matter how much funding you have, NATO would kick your ass.


After this, more states could be overthrown using that larger economy and a larger military can be made, and so on.
There would be no time to build that economy. You'd be invaded within a month.


But of course, we can't just go like that to infinity, because we will encounter significant military apposition after 2 to 3 of such coups.
You don't think opposition will come immediately after you stage a coup and seize the assets of the rich and powerful? That's wishful thinking. Governments have been overthrown for trying to provide food for their people, not even close to trying to inspire communist revolt.


A powerful military opposition can't be opposed for a long while, until all of the working class is armed in this socialist block.
The fact of the matter is you can't choose when to oppose it, because it will come, and it will come fast. You either fight it and lose, and accept it and lose.


In fact, 1/2 of the time such a domino effect would be stopped by military intervention.
I'll take the U.S. in an armed conflict against Monacco more than half the time.

[UnknownPerson]

Do you know how fast the cruise missiles would be flying if there was a rebel government declaring war on capitalism in other countries and actively working to overthrow more governments? It doesn't matter how much funding you have, NATO would kick your ass.


There would be no time to build that economy. You'd be invaded within a month.


You don't think opposition will come immediately after you stage a coup and seize the assets of the rich and powerful? That's wishful thinking. Governments have been overthrown for trying to provide food for their people, not even close to trying to inspire communist revolt.


The fact of the matter is you can't choose when to oppose it, because it will come, and it will come fast. You either fight it and lose, and accept it and lose.


I'll take the U.S. in an armed conflict against Monacco more than half the time.

"Do you know how fast the cruise missiles would be flying if there was a rebel government declaring war on capitalism in other countries and actively working to overthrow more governments? It doesn't matter how much funding you have, NATO would kick your ass. " - To begin with, this government would seem to be pro-NATO, and pro-US, and even have 'deals' with the US, and help it in various ways, like a form of a non-aggression pact. Even before any socialism would start being built, the citizens would be heavily armed, and it would be named as 'promoting the American way of life'. By that I mean very heavily, as well as freely trained for basic military skills - even women. They would be allowed to keep guns at home.

This economy would only be built my the domino effect, as in, this 'rebel' government as you call it funding further coups to increase it's sphere of influence. It would then arm people in these spheres of influence. IT WOULD NOT proclaim that it's in any way leftist until the desired sphere of influence is reached, that's the thing! If it would claim it's leftist, it would get crushed by the US.

"You don't think opposition will come immediately after you stage a coup and seize the assets of the rich and powerful? That's wishful thinking. Governments have been overthrown for trying to provide food for their people, not even close to trying to inspire communist revolt." - They wouldn't be seized as soon as 'the rebels' would come to power at all. The group could claim that it's free-market capitalist until all the citizens will be armed and the education phase will begin. Doing otherwise is a suicide.

Esstentially, the group would claim to be promoting the American and Western way of life until the second wave would begin. After this, heavily armed citizens could even be used to capture more area in the name of the 'American way of life'. But then, the education phase would begin, during which heavy Marxist education will begin. The state has to get nuclear weapons in order to survive in the long term, or it will get crushed.

[Sensible Socialist]

So you're going to pose as a free-market nation until you have an educated populace with guns? There are several questions I have with that. First of all, how are you going to educate people against capitalism? I don't want to throw around accusations, but it sounds a bit eerie. A free-market nation that has a communist-inspired curriculum in their education system is not going to go unnoticed. Secondly, even if the population does reach a level of sufficient consciousness, how are they going to react to the leaders of the nation? Are they actually going to believe it was all a plan and that you've fucked them all in a capitalist society just for show? There would be some serious resentment.

[UnknownPerson]

So you're going to pose as a free-market nation until you have an educated populace with guns? There are several questions I have with that. First of all, how are you going to educate people against capitalism? I don't want to throw around accusations, but it sounds a bit eerie. A free-market nation that has a communist-inspired curriculum in their education system is not going to go unnoticed. Secondly, even if the population does reach a level of sufficient consciousness, how are they going to react to the leaders of the nation? Are they actually going to believe it was all a plan and that you've fucked them all in a capitalist society just for show? There would be some serious resentment.

Let me put it like this:
The country will seem to be one which promotes typical Western and American values until enough influence is gained and nuclear weapons are made. Before this, the educational system would remain neutral, and you couldn't tell that it's government is in reality planning a surprise. For it to be possible, only the top of the top has to be aware of the real plan, and remain on top.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"From Blanqui's assumption, that any revolution may be made by the outbreak of a small revolutionary minority, follows of itself the necessity of a dictatorship after the success of the venture. This is, of course, a dictatorship, not of the entire revolutionary class, the proletariat, but of the small minority that has made the revolution, and who are themselves previously organized under the dictatorship of one or several individuals.

"We see, then, that Blanqui is a revolutionary of the preceding generation.

"These conceptions of the march of revolutionary events have long become obsolete, at least for the German worker's party, and will not find much sympathy in France, except among the less mature or the more impatient laborers. We shall also note, that they are placed under certain restrictions in the present program. Nevertheless our London Blanquists agree with the principle, that revolutions do not make themselves, but are made; that they are made by a relatively small minority and after a previously conceived plan; and finally, that they may be made at ally time, and that 'soon'.

"It is a matter of course that such principles will deliver a man hopelessly into the hands of all the self-deceptions of a fugitive's life and drive him from one folly into another. He wants above all to play the role of Blanqui, 'the man of action'. But little can be accomplished by mere good will. Not every one has the revolutionary instinct and quick decision of Blanqui. Hamlet may talk ever so much of energy, he will still remain Hamlet. And if our thirty-three men of action cannot find anything at all to do upon what they call the field of action, then these thirty-three Brutuses come into a more comical than tragic conflict with themselves. The tragic of their situation is by no means increased by the dark men which they assume, as though they were so many slayers of tyrants with stilettos in their bosoms, which they are not.

"What can they do? They prepare the next 'outbreak' by drawing up lists of proscription for the future..." - Engels, The Program of the Blanquist Fugitives from the Paris Commune (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/06/26.htm)

[Sensible Socialist]

Let me put it like this:
The country will seem to be one which promotes typical Western and American values until enough influence is gained and nuclear weapons are made. Before this, the educational system would remain neutral, and you couldn't tell that it's government is in reality planning a surprise. For it to be possible, only the top of the top has to be aware of the real plan, and remain on top.
You've been playing too many RTS games on the internet. I'll summarize your plan, and maybe then you can see how ridiculous it is.

1. Overthrow a government
2. Defend small country from surrounding capitalist nations.
3. Somehow legitimize the coup to other nations.
4. Don't get invaded.
5. Don't get invaded some more.
6. Act like America is your friend.
7. Secretly aquire nuclear capablities and build an arsenal of nuclear weapons to challenge capitalist agression...without anyone knowing except those at the top of your super secret government team.
8. Don't get invaded.
9. Spread communism.
10. Don't get crush.

You honestly think you can just overthrow a small country and act like nothing happened in the eyes of the world? Then proceed to develop nukes? As if there aren't security agencies around the world watching you?

Are you twelve? This isn't a game of Civilization.

[UnknownPerson]

You've been playing too many RTS games on the internet. I'll summarize your plan, and maybe then you can see how ridiculous it is.

1. Overthrow a government
2. Defend small country from surrounding capitalist nations.
3. Somehow legitimize the coup to other nations.
4. Don't get invaded.
5. Don't get invaded some more.
6. Act like America is your friend.
7. Secretly aquire nuclear capablities and build an arsenal of nuclear weapons to challenge capitalist agression...without anyone knowing except those at the top of your super secret government team.
8. Don't get invaded.
9. Spread communism.
10. Don't get crush.

You honestly think you can just overthrow a small country and act like nothing happened in the eyes of the world? Then proceed to develop nukes? As if there aren't security agencies around the world watching you?

Are you twelve? This isn't a game of Civilization.

Your summary is essentially erroneous and fallacious. You're implying that any capitalist countries would attack a 'free-market capitalist coup which promotes American and Western values'. Remember, as I told you, NO LEFTISM would be instituted until the block obtains nuclear weapons. Most of the time no intervention happens during coup d'etats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_coups_d%27%C3%A9tat

[Sasha]

I don't know... Mongolia, for example. It has a very small military. It could rely on international trade for the resources it needs.

1. "At 1,564,116 square kilometres (603,909 sq mi), Mongolia is the 19th largest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_area ) and the most sparsely populated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density) independent country in the world, with a population of around 2.75 million people. It is also the world's second-largest landlocked country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landlocked_country) after Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan). The country contains very little arable land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land), as much of its area is covered by steppes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe), with mountains to the north and west and the Gobi Desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi_Desert) to the south. Approximately 30% of the population are nomadic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad) or semi-nomadic."

not an micro state by an long shot it would seem which raises all kind of logistic questions.

2. "Due to its geopolitical positions and economical powers, Mongolia has a unique military policy. Being between two of the world's largest nations, Mongolian armed forces have a limited capability to protect its independence against foreign invasions; the country's national security therefore depends strongly on diplomacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy)."

i.e. that army is so small because its friendly with its huge neighboors, pick an fight with the mongolian regime is picking a fight with both china and russia with the US thrown in as an bonus.

3. you know anyone that speaks mongolian?


next option please.

(and to help this speed up, no, all the european, asian and arab micro-states are not an option because of the military treaty's they have with their big regional players)

[UnknownPerson]

1. "At 1,564,116 square kilometres (603,909 sq mi), Mongolia is the 19th largest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_area ) and the most sparsely populated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density) independent country in the world, with a population of around 2.75 million people. It is also the world's second-largest landlocked country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landlocked_country) after Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan). The country contains very little arable land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land), as much of its area is covered by steppes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe), with mountains to the north and west and the Gobi Desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobi_Desert) to the south. Approximately 30% of the population are nomadic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad) or semi-nomadic."

not an micro state by an long shot it would seem which raises all kind of logistic questions.

2. "Due to its geopolitical positions and economical powers, Mongolia has a unique military policy. Being between two of the world's largest nations, Mongolian armed forces have a limited capability to protect its independence against foreign invasions; the country's national security therefore depends strongly on diplomacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy)."

i.e. that army is so small because its friendly with its huge neighboors, pick an fight with the mongolian regime is picking a fight with both china and russia with the US thrown in as an bonus.

3. you know anyone that speaks mongolian?


next option please.

(and to help this speed up, no, all the european, asian and arab micro-states are not an option because of the military treaty's they have with their big regional players)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Map_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops.PNG


Yellow and grey countries may be fit for this.

[Sasha]

lets start with those greys:

greenland: one of the biggest countrys in the world, mostly snow and ice, under protection of denmark.
iceland: under protection of the US, the nato, the eu and the scandinavian countries.
western sahara: desert, claimed by the marocco, desert, will have to fight an two front war against those maroccans and the highly militarised native population who have been at an rebelion for decades, and did i mention its an desert?
surinam: depending who is in charge at that moment either the dutch or the venuzuelan army will come and kick your but
haiti: no one in their right mind wants to mess with that hornetsnest
somalia: one of the few countys the rest of the world gladly will let you have, for those very same reasons not an option
vaticancity, malta, liechtenstein, andora etc etc: all under protection of their big european neighbors.
buthan: indian protection and the happiest place in the world, you cant do an coup in the happiest place in the world.
grey islands in the caribean: under US, french, british or dutch protection, in the cases of the british and the dutch even part of those kingdoms
grey islands in the pacific; either under australian protection or to godforsaken far with nothing to gain there.

which leaves panama and costa rica as the only remaining options, costa-rica has no standing army but does have an highly trained and well armed police force so i would go for panama, better start drawing up those invasion plans...
what do you say, the panama canal is of strategic importance and the US will suppress any unrest?
dang.....

you know what? it almost seems that countries with no or an small army all have good reasons for that, its almost like it is not an matter of an oversight as would be needed for your "plan" to work...

maybe you should just let this stupid thread die in peace instead of embarrassing yourself any further. and yes, it is stupid and you are embarrassing yourself, and boasting about your supposed IQ doesnt help

[Sensible Socialist]

Remember, as I told you, NO LEFTISM would be instituted until the block obtains nuclear weapons. Most of the time no intervention happens during coup d'etats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_coups_d%27%C3%A9tat
How are you going to obtain nuclear weapons?

[Princess Luna]

time to name names dude, propose a nation so we can make this "discussion" a bit more practical...
The Vatican City, it only has like 800 people in it.
Oh and for the record if we do take it over, i get first dibs on the Pope's hat.

[Sasha]

The Vatican City, it only has like 800 in it.
Oh and for the record if we do take it over, i get first dibs on the Pope's hat.

"The military defence of the Vatican City is provided by Italy and its armed forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Italy)"

also no proletariat and no natural recources, it is very wealthy but the rest of the world might get a bit cross with you if you start chippin of the ceiling of the sistinechapel and selling it.

[Nox]

The only option that I see as viable for your 'plan' is Swaziland. But good luck with that.

[Nox]

This isn't a game of Civilization.

Don't be hatin' on Civilization! :sneaky:

[Rss]

This is hilarious. None of those countries have natural resources to do what you intend. So your plan fails on material level, not to mention on social level.


Yea , that's called Leninism and it doesn't work.

This is almost as fun as OP.

[Q]

"The military defence of the Vatican City is provided by Italy and its armed forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Italy)"

also no proletariat and no natural recources, it is very wealthy but the rest of the world might get a bit cross with you if you start chippin of the ceiling of the sistinechapel and selling it.

It has religious manna as a resource, I'm sure we can use that to convert the rest of the world to the communist couping faith ;)

[hatzel]

I like the bit when this thread became a more farcical version of 'surprise communism'...mind you, that thread was in chit-chat for a good reason...

[Tim Cornelis]

Best. Thread. Ever.

No, seriously I'm laughing my ass off. Please continue.

[UnknownPerson]

This is hilarious. None of those countries have natural resources to do what you intend. So your plan fails on material level, not to mention on social level.



This is almost as fun as OP.

What's the difference between the material and social level? There is none. All the social relations can be explained in terms of the material world. Please explain what you means by 'material' and 'social' levels.

As I've already mentioned and 95% of the posters in this thread have failed to read, the country will pretend to be entirely free-market capitalist and serve as a military base for the US and help the Western world until it will obtain nuclear weapons. What most of you seem to think that as soon as the group will come to power it will start nationalizing stuff - no, it won't, because then the country will remain out of any resources for survival.

When the country will obtain nuclear technology, and then nuclear weapons, it will also make EMP weapons, which are able to shut down all of the US electronics, and return the US into the pre-industrial age. Obviously, that country will not use these weapons, but merely threaten to.

MFZo5PqvEak

[hatzel]

As I've already mentioned and 95% of the posters in this thread have failed to read, the country will pretend to be entirely free-market capitalist and serve as a military base for the US and help the Western world until it will obtain nuclear weapons

No no no, we have read that...and that's precisely the bit we find particularly funny. You know, how you expect that whole plan to work...how long is this all going to take, by the way? :)

[UnknownPerson]

No no no, we have read that...and that's precisely the bit we find particularly funny. You know, how you expect that whole plan to work...how long is this all going to take, by the way? :)

I think it will take around 10 to 17 years. I don't know what people might find funny about it. If a plan implements many fundamental changes it doesn't necessarily mean it's unfeasible.

[UnknownPerson]

lets start with those greys:

greenland: one of the biggest countrys in the world, mostly snow and ice, under protection of denmark.
iceland: under protection of the US, the nato, the eu and the scandinavian countries.
western sahara: desert, claimed by the marocco, desert, will have to fight an two front war against those maroccans and the highly militarised native population who have been at an rebelion for decades, and did i mention its an desert?
surinam: depending who is in charge at that moment either the dutch or the venuzuelan army will come and kick your but
haiti: no one in their right mind wants to mess with that hornetsnest
somalia: one of the few countys the rest of the world gladly will let you have, for those very same reasons not an option
vaticancity, malta, liechtenstein, andora etc etc: all under protection of their big european neighbors.
buthan: indian protection and the happiest place in the world, you cant do an coup in the happiest place in the world.
grey islands in the caribean: under US, french, british or dutch protection, in the cases of the british and the dutch even part of those kingdoms
grey islands in the pacific; either under australian protection or to godforsaken far with nothing to gain there.

which leaves panama and costa rica as the only remaining options, costa-rica has no standing army but does have an highly trained and well armed police force so i would go for panama, better start drawing up those invasion plans...
what do you say, the panama canal is of strategic importance and the US will suppress any unrest?
dang.....

you know what? it almost seems that countries with no or an small army all have good reasons for that, its almost like it is not an matter of an oversight as would be needed for your "plan" to work...

maybe you should just let this stupid thread die in peace instead of embarrassing yourself any further. and yes, it is stupid and you are embarrassing yourself, and boasting about your supposed IQ doesnt help


Now you're implying that the only good options are states without a military force, which isn't true, as I mentioned in the OP. I've also mentioned that the grey and YELLOW states might be good options.

I've refuted most of the arguments against this plan so far, and any of you are yet to prove in what way it's stupid, without your argument getting refuted.

[Sasha]

you have refuted nothing, you just came up with more nonsense and painted yourself more in a corner.
the "we will lie that we are capitalist" and the "we will first acquire nuclear weapons" rabbits you keep pulling out of your hat have nothing to do with refuting.
you plans just as well might involve laser-swords, those pink unicorns i mentioned earlier and fire breathing robot-dragons.

[UnknownPerson]

you have refuted nothing, you just came up with more nonsense and painted yourself more in a corner.
the "we will lie that we are capitalist" and the "we will first acquire nuclear weapons" rabbits you keep pulling out of your hat have nothing to do with refuting.
you plans just as well might involve laser-swords, those pink unicorns i mentioned earlier and fire breathing robot-dragons.

Why exactly do you think that this plan is "stupid"? List the reasons.

[hatzel]

I think it will take around 10 to 17 years. I don't know what people might find funny about it. If a plan implements many fundamental changes it doesn't necessarily mean it's unfeasible.

So a previously insignificant country with minimal resources is going to be transformed into a major imperialist outpost armed with nuclear weapons and then into a socialist utopia, all within a decade? All without anybody realising it's just surprise communism?

[Tim Cornelis]

I can imagine it now, a bunch of oblivious suburban whiteys invading, say, Mauritius with no standing army killing all 10,000 police officers while they lay asleep telling the black native population what is best for them... *ahum* colonialism *ahum*.

And then we secretly brainwash the population, stealth communisation... Brilliant.

[Sasha]

and if i could be arsed enough i could do those yellow states too one by one but i will do them per continent.

europe/baltic: nato protection
south america: 99% jungle, whitey leftists stick out a bit for pulling of an secret coup
kaukasus: russian protection, whitey leftists stick out a bit for pulling of an secret coup
asia: chinese protection, whitey leftists stick out a bit for pulling of an secret coup
pacific: australian protection, big, jungle
africa: under constant civil-war, whitey leftists stick out a bit for pulling of an secret coup

[UnknownPerson]

So a previously insignificant country with minimal resources is going to be transformed into a major imperialist outpost armed with nuclear weapons and then into a socialist utopia, all within a decade? All without anybody realising it's just surprise communism?

No, obtaining nuclear weapons only will take 10 to 17 years. After that, this country will ask for money from other states and threaten to EMP them, to fund revolutions and overthrow far bigger states.

[Sasha]

you are delusional...

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldp582CP351qddj4so1_500.jpg

[Honggweilo]

i shat brix because of this topic XD

and its been done already, and it failed horribly

- The peoples church and Jonestown in Guyana
- The Libertarian "buying" of a libertarian freestate in Puntland Somalia
- Some niche trotskist internationals flooding a country with foreign members
- The shitload of blanquist anti-impie urban guerilla movements in the 70's with their three world theories
- ect, ect, ect

also; lol internet, life is not a fucking videogame

[UnknownPerson]

you are delusional...

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldp582CP351qddj4so1_500.jpg

Ok, now you're implying that I'm ever going to do this, which isn't true. It's simply a hypothetical question discussing Blanquism.

[Honggweilo]

Ok, now you're implying that I'm ever going to do this, which isn't true. It's simply a hypothetical question discussing Blanquism.

Hypothetically, i would suggest using transhumanism to turn ourselves into cybernetic dragons, coup the shit out of those microstates, and look fucking awesome. Then we will find the one ring, and with the power of grayskull, we summon captain planet! Then he and Super Sayan Goku will Spiritbomb capitalism into oblivion.

[UnknownPerson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Estonian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

You should all read this article. These people were very close at succeeding, and they used the same tactic. Go ahead, call them delusional. You can't deny the fact that they would succeed if they would plan it a little bit better. In fact, after studying this I started thinking that Blanquism is possible.

[Chambered Word]

so if us trots started giving out our newspapers instead of selling them, the proletarian would be educated much quicker?

hold on, I'm calling the SWP. you're a genius unknownperson.

edit: btw, get the AKs and let's go to swaziland bro, I mean only hypothetically.

[UnknownPerson]

Hypothetically, i would suggest using transhumanism to turn ourselves into cybernetic dragons, coup the shit out of those microstates, and look fucking awesome. Then we will find the one ring, and with the power of grayskull, we summon captain planet! Then he and Super Sayan Goku will Spiritbomb capitalism into oblivion.

Ok, now, are you implying that transhumanism is impossible or ridiculous? Transhumanism is actually possible, and various human augmentations are already available:


Reproductive technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_technology)

Embryo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo) selection by preimplantation genetic diagnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagnosis)


Physically:

Doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_%28sport%29)
Performance-enhancing drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance-enhancing_drugs)
Plastic surgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_surgery)
Powered exoskeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton)


Mentally:

Nootropics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropics)



Various neuroscience breakthroughs in neuroscience and computing technologies make the development of various new physical and mental augmentation technologies faster than ever. Not to mention that the growth of computational technology is double-exponential and is ever-increasing.

[UnknownPerson]

so if us trots started giving out our newspapers instead of selling them, the proletarian would be educated much quicker?

hold on, I'm calling the SWP. you're a genius unknownperson.

No...
EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES would be built, and citizens would have to visit them several times a week. Not only that, but all the public media would educate people on communism.

It seems like not many people are able to understand my posts.

[Honggweilo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Estonian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

You should all read this article. These people were very close at succeeding, and they used the same tactic. Go ahead, call them delusional. You can't deny the fact that they would succeed if they would plan it a little bit better. In fact, after studying this I started thinking that Blanquism is possible.

first of all, it failed XD

second, the ethnic and political hatred towards russians and left-wing politics in Estonia, with these things as a raison d'être

nuff said

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciencefiction

after studying this, i think you might have a chance making a career in this genre of writing

[UnknownPerson]

first of all, it failed XD

second, the ethnic and political hatred towards russians and left-wing politics in Estonia, with these things as a raison d'être

nuff said

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciencefiction

after studying this, i think you might have a chance making a career in this genre of writing


You know what, I don't think that it's fair to ridicule Blanquism without properly studying it. It's very often ridiculed by most of the Marxists without studying it. Please investigate this coup - it was an example of Blanquism in the 20th century. Even though this coup has failed, it was close to succeeding. I don't understand why RevLeft hates Blanquism so much.

[Honggweilo]

Ok, now, are you implying that transhumanism is impossible or ridiculous? Transhumanism is actually possible, and various human augmentations are already available:


Reproductive technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_technology)

Embryo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo) selection by preimplantation genetic diagnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagnosis)


Physically:

Doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_%28sport%29)
Performance-enhancing drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance-enhancing_drugs)
Plastic surgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_surgery)
Powered exoskeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton)


Mentally:

Nootropics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropics)



Various neuroscience breakthroughs in neuroscience and computing technologies make the development of various new physical and mental augmentation technologies faster than ever. Not to mention that the growth of computational technology is double-exponential and is ever-increasing.

Did i say transhumanism was impossible? hell we could give ourselves both sexual organs and go fuck ourselves if we wanted. But what bothers me is that i'm not sure if this response was you saying that you found my "hypothetical" suggestion actually a good idea :confused:. Which would be mindblowing.

[UnknownPerson]

Did i say transhumanism was impossible? hell we could give ourselves both sexual organs and go fuck ourselves if we wanted. But what bothers me is that i'm not sure if this response was you saying that you found my "hypothetical" suggestion actually a good idea :confused:. Which would be mindblowing.

If you have read my post, I said "implying". You seem to be implying that transhumanism is ridiculous in some way. I might be wrong, though.

[Honggweilo]

You know what, I don't think that it's fair to ridicule Blanquism without properly studying it. It's very often ridiculed by most of the Marxists without studying it. Please investigate this coup - it was an example of Blanquism in the 20th century. Even though this coup has failed, it was close to succeeding. I don't understand why RevLeft hates Blanquism so much.

1. It never succeded anywhere
2. Every marxist inherently heckles blanquism, because its not marxist (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/06/26.htm)
3. any form of empiric analysis or inductive reasoning disproves blanquism as an succesfull strategy.
4. one failed example that had alot of negative effect on public opinion is not even close to proving it is a usefull strategy
5. who the fuck are you to impose you and your group as "benelovent tyrants" without any moral or actual connection/support from the masses of that country?

[Psy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Estonian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

You should all read this article. These people were very close at succeeding, and they used the same tactic. Go ahead, call them delusional. You can't deny the fact that they would succeed if they would plan it a little bit better. In fact, after studying this I started thinking that Blanquism is possible.

That is only the beginning, once you win you find yourself with little means of production surrounded by large and powerful imperialist armies. Look at well Georgia stood up to a outpost of the Russian army with massive US military aid backing, if we took over a micro state it would be worse as we simply won't have the means of production to repel a armed invasion.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think its a matter of scale. It doesnt matter if the population of a country is 1 billion or 10 000. You are always going to be faced with the same obstacles.

[Sasha]

No...
EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES would be built, and citizens would have to visit them several times a week. Not only that, but all the public media would educate people on communism.

It seems like not many people are able to understand my posts.

I am coupleader unknownperson
My aura smiles
And never frowns
Soon I will be president...

fascism will soon go away
but I still will be Fuhrer on that day
I will command all of you
Your kids will study communism in school
Your kids will study communis in school!

[Chorus:]
swasiland Uber Alles
vaticancity Uber Alles
Uber Alles andora
Uber Alles malta

secret commi-fascists will control you
100% by suprise
You will jog for the dictatorship of the proletariat
And always wear the happy face

Close your eyes, can't happen here
Big Bro' on white horse is near
The commies won't come back you say
raise that fist or you will pay
recite das kapital or you will pay!

[Chorus]

Now it is 1984
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the fascist/communist secret police
They have come for your not yet re-educated niece

Come quietly to the camp
You'd look nice as a drawstring lamp
Don't you worry, it's only a shower
For your clothes here's a pretty flower.

DIE on organic poison gas
Serpent's egg's already hatched
You will croak, you little clown
When you mess with coupleader unknownperson
When you mess with coupleader unknownperson
[Chorus]


it lost some of its rhyme and shit but i think this will work

[UnknownPerson]

That is only the beginning, once you win you find yourself with little means of production surrounded by large and powerful imperialist armies. Look at well Georgia stood up to a outpost of the Russian army with massive US military aid backing, if we took over a micro state it would be worse as we simply won't have the means of production to repel a armed invasion.

For this reason the group which has performed the coup will pretend it's capitalist for a while, unless it will get stronger, which was the case in the Soviet Union. Lenin essentially instituted free-market reforms because he feared that otherwise the Soviet Union would get crushed by imperialist armies from the outside.

[UnknownPerson]

I am coupleader unknownperson
My aura smiles
And never frowns
Soon I will be president...

fascism will soon go away
but I still will be Fuhrer on that day
I will command all of you
Your kids will study communism in school
Your kids will study communis in school!

[Chorus:]
swasiland Uber Alles
vaticancity Uber Alles
Uber Alles andora
Uber Alles malta

secret commi-fascists will control you
100% by suprise
You will jog for the dictatorship of the proletariat
And always wear the happy face

Close your eyes, can't happen here
Big Bro' on white horse is near
The commies won't come back you say
raise that fist or you will pay
recite das kapital or you will pay!

[Chorus]

Now it is 1984
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the fascist/communist secret police
They have come for your not yet re-educated niece

Come quietly to the camp
You'd look nice as a drawstring lamp
Don't you worry, it's only a shower
For your clothes here's a pretty flower.

DIE on organic poison gas
Serpent's egg's already hatched
You will croak, you little clown
When you mess with coupleader unknownperson
When you mess with coupleader unknownperson
[Chorus]


it lost some of its rhyme and shit but i think this will work

What song did you copy it from? Or did you write it yourself?

It sounds somewhat like a song from 1984:
YtepuyvsGbg

[Honggweilo]

For this reason the group which has performed the coup will pretend it's capitalist for a while, unless it will get stronger, which was the case in the Soviet Union. Lenin essentially instituted free-market reforms because he feared that otherwise the Soviet Union would get crushed by imperialist armies from the outside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSd-SPOR5LU&feature=related

(english version was removed XD)

[Sasha]

know your classics kid...
UW8UlY8eXCk

[UnknownPerson]

Here's how it works:

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government
2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism
3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries - be close friends with the West.
4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).
5. Grow and expand the territory some more.
6. Start arming the people massively.
7. Start building communist educational facilities.
8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government


Essentially, this state would act like Israel but be more pro-West and be more imperialist and expand, and then indirectly make a communist revolution happen there.

[Honggweilo]

Here's how it works:

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government
2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism
3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries
4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).
5. Grow and expand the territory some more.
6. Start arming the people massively.
7. Start building communist educational facilities.
8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government




you forgot;

13. ???????
14. PROFIT!


Essentially, this state would act like Israel but be more pro-West and be more imperialist and expand, and then indirectly make a communist revolution happen there.

Please be a troll XD... this is just.. i dont even..

Yeah lets also make deathcamps for ethnic minorities! that will turn people towards communism!

[Sasha]

Here's how it works:

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government
2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism
3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries - be close friends with the West.
4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).
5. Grow and expand the territory some more.
6. Start arming the people massively.
7. Start building communist educational facilities.
8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government


Essentially, this state would act like Israel but be more pro-West and be more imperialist and expand, and then indirectly make a communist revolution happen there.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/1/21/b9dbd860-4251-43db-8c81-7d8bd54f106e.jpg

[UnknownPerson]

you forgot;

13. ???????
14. PROFIT!

There would be no profit as the socialist mode of production which fulfills the use-values and does not produce for profit would prevail :).

[UnknownPerson]

you forgot;

13. ???????
14. PROFIT!



Please be a troll XD... this is just.. i dont even..

Yeah lets also make deathcamps for ethnic minorities! that will turn people towards communism!

Making death camps for ethnic minorities would gain the state no support from the West at all. In fact, it would get crushed immediately.

[Honggweilo]

There would be no profit as the socialist mode of production which fulfills the use-values and does not produce for profit would prevail :).

I have a better idea, we should learn from X-men First Class and infiltrate nuclear powers to start a nuclear war. Then we start building our new society from the ashes and go straight from primitive communism to communism.

[Tim Cornelis]

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government

Impossibruuu! The people will resist any foreign invasion of smug white kids with some bombs.


2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism

Why would the natives support this? You destroy their democracy or government, force your values upon them whilst you are completely oblivious of their culture. Or are you first going to brainwash them with capitalist propaganda?


3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries - be close friends with the West.

Western states would not support it, because it's not in their interest. And even if they did so, China and Russia would oppose you fiercely.


4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).

The whole world you mean.


5. Grow and expand the territory some more.

You already have conquered the whole world in order to be self-sustained...


6. Start arming the people massively.

To overthrow you...?


7. Start building communist educational facilities.

Like the West teached the children of the 1950s how bad communism was and then they marched into the 1960s as... communists?


8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government


IMPOSSIBRU!!!

PS. It's getting old now.

[Honggweilo]

can someone move this topic to "creative writing" ?

[Tjis]

Ok. I'll bite too.
Let's say all this is succesful and an invading band of strong leftist mercenaries succesfully transformed Swaziland into an industrialized nuclear weapons wielding state controlled by a secret communist organization without anyone noticing. If I understand correctly, in your plan at this stage the secret communist organization stops being secretive, reveals their plan for communism and educates and arms the masses while staging coups in other countries using their nuclear arsenal to keep the other powers from invading.
Here's the problem. Your little communist conspiracy is not the only one that can play that game. At the moment there are 9 nuclear-capable powers in the world, capable of completely obliterating any country in the world many times over. No matter what kind of nuclear threat you have, if the US, the EU, Russia or China has any interests in the country you're invading, the best you can hope for is a cold war-like nuclear standoff.
Look at history. Look at the proxy wars during the Cold War. How does this usually play out? Neither party is able to actually use their nuclear weapons (because it'd mean mutual extinction) so instead wars are fought using convential means. You know, with soldiers and guns and tanks and bombs. Lots of them. Far more than you'd be able to mobilize secretly in your micronation. Far more even than you'd get by mobilize the entire population.
The best you can hope for is that the nuclear threat will keep people from invading your micronation. Much like North Korea you'll be isolated from the entire world while having to maintain a standing army just to provide some security against invasion. An army that needs to be clothed, fed and housed but which doesn't do productive work themselves. Your entire economy will be devoted to maintaining this army. In this situation, socialism is impossible.

[UnknownPerson]

Impossibruuu! The people will resist any foreign invasion of smug white kids with some bombs.



Why would the natives support this? You destroy their democracy or government, force your values upon them whilst you are completely oblivious of their culture. Or are you first going to brainwash them with capitalist propaganda?



Western states would not support it, because it's not in their interest. And even if they did so, China and Russia would oppose you fiercely.



The whole world you mean.



You already have conquered the whole world in order to be self-sustained...



To overthrow you...?



Like the West teached the children of the 1950s how bad communism was and then they marched into the 1960s as... communists?



IMPOSSIBRU!!!

PS. It's getting old now.

Most of the natives wouldn't even know that it happened because all the media would be immediately centralized. The government would be made of natives and structured in a puppet-state manner.

[UnknownPerson]

Ok. I'll bite too.
Let's say all this is succesful and an invading band of strong leftist mercenaries succesfully transformed Swaziland into an industrialized nuclear weapons wielding state controlled by a secret communist organization without anyone noticing. If I understand correctly, in your plan at this stage the secret communist organization stops being secretive, reveals their plan for communism and educates and arms the masses while staging coups in other countries using their nuclear arsenal to keep the other powers from invading.
Here's the problem. Your little communist conspiracy is not the only one that can play that game. At the moment there are 9 nuclear-capable powers in the world, capable of completely obliterating any country in the world many times over. No matter what kind of nuclear threat you have, if the US, the EU, Russia or China has any interests in the country you're invading, the best you can hope for is a cold war-like nuclear standoff.
Look at history. Look at the proxy wars during the Cold War. How does this usually play out? Neither party is able to actually use their nuclear weapons (because it'd mean mutual extinction) so instead wars are fought using convential means. You know, with soldiers and guns and tanks and bombs. Lots of them. Far more than you'd be able to mobilize secretly in your micronation. Far more even than you'd get by mobilize the entire population.
The best you can hope for is that the nuclear threat will keep people from invading your micronation. Much like North Korea you'll be isolated from the entire world while having to maintain a standing army just to provide some security against invasion. An army that needs to be clothed, fed and housed but which doesn't do productive work themselves. Your entire economy will be devoted to maintaining this army. In this situation, socialism is impossible.

The thing is, as the plan says, far bigger economic territories would be captured as a result of imperialism, which would enable the country to be more self-sustained. Of course, it wouldn't be able to be 100% self-sustained, and this could be compensated by the fact that there would still be some trading and foreign aid after the communists took over.

[Tjis]

The thing is, as the plan says, far bigger economic territories would be captured as a result of imperialism, which would enable the country to be more self-sustained. Of course, it wouldn't be able to be 100% self-sustained, and this could be compensated by the fact that there would still be some trading and foreign aid after the communists took over.

And how will those territories be captured? Any territory that has anything of value is already in bed with one (or multiple) of the world's superpowers. They won't let you take it from them, no matter how western and free-market friendly you pretend to be.
Look at the Falklands war. Argentina, at the time led by a capitalist-friendly military dictatorship, claimed 12,173 square km of rock with no significant resources on it. The United Kingdom didn't give a shit about the capitalist-friendlyness of Argentina, nor did they give a shit about the relative unimportance of the Falkland Islands. Instead they sent in their army and won it back in 2 months.
How do you think one of the powerful nations will react when you try to invade something that actually is of any value?

[Sasha]

and you still think this is an feasible plan?

where you drop on your head as an baby?

[bcbm]

Most of the natives wouldn't even know that it happened because all the media would be immediately centralized. The government would be made of natives and structured in a puppet-state manner.

yeah, this still has absolutely nothing to do with communism.


successful troll is successful

[UnknownPerson]

And how will those territories be captured? Any territory that has anything of value is already in bed with one (or multiple) of the world's superpowers. They won't let you take it from them, no matter how western and free-market friendly you pretend to be.
Look at the Falklands war. Argentina, at the time led by a capitalist-friendly military dictatorship, claimed 12,173 square km of rock with no significant resources on it. The United Kingdom didn't give a shit about the capitalist-friendlyness of Argentina, nor did they give a shit about the relative unimportance of the Falkland Islands. Instead they sent in their army and won it back in 2 months.
How do you think one of the powerful nations will react when you try to invade something that actually is of any value?



Here's how it works:

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government
2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism
3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries - be close friends with the West.
4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).
5. Grow and expand the territory some more.
6. Start arming the people massively.
7. Start building communist educational facilities.
8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government


Essentially, this state would act like Israel but be more pro-West and be more imperialist and expand, and then indirectly make a communist revolution happen there.

Here.

[bcbm]

Here's how it works

the chief problem is that reality doesn't work that way

[UnknownPerson]

and you still think this is an feasible plan?

where you drop on your head as an baby?

Yes, I think it's a feasible plan.

No, not at all. In fact, my IQ has been estimated to be far higher than that of most of the people on this planet, and I was tested several times throughout my life.

The thing is, most of the people lack the reasoning skills to estimate how the plan will work, so they start ridiculing it by making nonexistent logical links and false analogies, judging merely by the contextual properties of language and not the non-verbal logical links.

[bcbm]

Yes, I think it's a feasible plan.

No, not at all. In fact, my IQ has been estimated to be far higher than that of most of the people on this planet, and I was tested several times throughout my life.

these two statements really don't belong together.


The thing is, most of the people lack the reasoning skills to estimate how the plan will work, so they start ridiculing it by making nonexistent logical links and false analogies, judging merely by the contextual properties of language and not the non-verbal logical links.

the thing is, you're wrong and your 'plan' is complete nonsense that has nothing to do with the communist project. for a genius you sure are clueless

[UnknownPerson]

these two statements really don't belong together.



the thing is, you're wrong and your 'plan' is complete nonsense that has nothing to do with the communist project. for a genius you sure are clueless

If you would actually bother to understand it instead of throwing strong emotions at me, you would think the opposite.

[Honggweilo]

well if no one else understands it, and you want a select group of revolutionaries to devote themselves to this idea. Why dont you just do it on your own? Like now. Prove us wrong! :cool:. surely that wont be a problem for a mastermind with your IQ.

I suggest you coup Kosovo, the whole country is a military base. Then you can go all couping, arming people, build deathcamps and other shit.

[bcbm]

If you would actually bother to understand it instead of throwing strong emotions at me, you would think the opposite.

i do understand it, it is complete horseshit. you're the one who is completely at odds with reality.

[Tjis]

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government

For fun and games I'll assume there are no ethical or practical problems with this step.


2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism

Pretending this involves more than just words, it involves actions. Defending free-market capitalism requires that you actually allow private interests that are not under your control to take advantage of the country's natural resources and workforce. You can't tax them too hard either, or you wouldn't be free-market friendly at all.


3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries - be close friends with the West.

Western states don't support other countries just cause they say they support western values. Western states support other countries because it benefits them. For example because of economic or strategic interests in the country. But your whole premise is that this would be a micronation nobody cares about.

Furthermore territories aren't captured by magic. They are taken by armies that need to be fed, clothed and armed. It is pretty expensive to do this, and since at this stage you're pretending to be free-market friendly it's not like you can get this money from taxing the rich.


4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).
5. Grow and expand the territory some more.

The only way to capture enough territory to be self-sustained while still having a standing army and imperialist ambitions is by taking territory that is under the control of one of the powerful nations. All of the earth's valuables have already been divided between them. What is left is the scraps, and scraps do not feed armies. But invading any territory from these nations will result in immedate retaliation. How will you ever get to the point where you can build that bomb?
Also, the US doesn't care about Israel having nukes. In fact they probably helped. Israel is a strategic location to place nukes after all. Nor is Israel self-sustaining for that matter. They can do what they do precisely because they have the backing of the US.


6. Start arming the people massively.

Presumably at this point the people are still unaware of the communist conspiracy, and are working hard to provide the front with the required resources. Working hard for a cause they don't know about. I presume they'll be fed with some kind of lie involving national defense, patriotism and a share in the future spoils of war. but then..


7. Start building communist educational facilities.
8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government

So a heavily armed population, which up to point 6 was working hard for some free market imperialist dream suddenly see their government promoting communism. You expect that this will lead to revolution? I expect it'll lead to a fascist overthrow of your puppet state.

[Honggweilo]

Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism

We've seen how that has turned out for china didnt we :rolleyes:

again, you're not playing a geo-political videogame here. If you want to satisfy these cravings of yours, i suggest the following titles

- Any Paradox Interactive game
- Civilisation
- Tropico
- Hidden Agenda
- Balance of Power

[Nox]

The fundamental flaw of this plan that you'd soon realise is that you wouldn't be able to fund all of this on small islands that have very little arable land and virtually no natural resources.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Come on guys.... Obvious troll is obvious.

[Q]

Ok, let's give another twist at this:


Here's how it works:

1. Take over by destroying the army and killing most of the 'top' government
2. Pretend to be defending the Western values and free-market capitalism
3. Have an imperialist foreign policy which most of the Western states would support, which would enable this state to capture far more countries - be close friends with the West.
4. Once enough territory is captured to be self-sustained, start making nukes. Even if the West finds out, they won't try to stop it (See: Israel).
5. Grow and expand the territory some more.
6. Start arming the people massively.
7. Start building communist educational facilities.
8. Start teaching communism in an indirect way, rather along with other ideologies - most of the people would pick communism as all of the ideologies would be taught, and they would see that communism would benefit them highly.
9. Start having educational programs like this in the name of educating the population on the TV 1/2 of the day, as well as on the radio and in the press.
10. Highly fund the local communist party.
11. The communist party now starts organizing the proletariat for a revolution
12. The proletariat takes over the means of production and the present government


Essentially, this state would act like Israel but be more pro-West and be more imperialist and expand, and then indirectly make a communist revolution happen there.

I think you've just nailed the China communist masterplan!

[UnknownPerson]

For fun and games I'll assume there are no ethical or practical problems with this step.

Pretending this involves more than just words, it involves actions. Defending free-market capitalism requires that you actually allow private interests that are not under your control to take advantage of the country's natural resources and workforce. You can't tax them too hard either, or you wouldn't be free-market friendly at all.

Western states don't support other countries just cause they say they support western values. Western states support other countries because it benefits them. For example because of economic or strategic interests in the country. But your whole premise is that this would be a micronation nobody cares about.

Furthermore territories aren't captured by magic. They are taken by armies that need to be fed, clothed and armed. It is pretty expensive to do this, and since at this stage you're pretending to be free-market friendly it's not like you can get this money from taxing the rich.

The only way to capture enough territory to be self-sustained while still having a standing army and imperialist ambitions is by taking territory that is under the control of one of the powerful nations. All of the earth's valuables have already been divided between them. What is left is the scraps, and scraps do not feed armies. But invading any territory from these nations will result in immedate retaliation. How will you ever get to the point where you can build that bomb?
Also, the US doesn't care about Israel having nukes. In fact they probably helped. Israel is a strategic location to place nukes after all. Nor is Israel self-sustaining for that matter. They can do what they do precisely because they have the backing of the US.

Presumably at this point the people are still unaware of the communist conspiracy, and are working hard to provide the front with the required resources. Working hard for a cause they don't know about. I presume they'll be fed with some kind of lie involving national defense, patriotism and a share in the future spoils of war. but then..

So a heavily armed population, which up to point 6 was working hard for some free market imperialist dream suddenly see their government promoting communism. You expect that this will lead to revolution? I expect it'll lead to a fascist overthrow of your puppet state.

The state would create it's own industries which would provide a great deal of the funding required, but not all of it of course.

No, Western states do support countries if they highly enforce their values. Israel is an example. There's no world domination conspiracy to use Israel to take over the Arabian world. It's supported simply because it fight against the Islamic culture which most of the West hates, by killing innocent people.

Them overthrowing this puppet state is what is needed. No, they won't be all free-market capitalist, they will be communist due to the fact that there would be a high bias towards communism in the educational system which would go on for years after the state is big enough.

It would remain highly friendly with the West, so it doesn't even need to be self-sustained. There would still be a great deal of trading and aid after the transfer has been completed, even after the transition.

[Tim Cornelis]

Most of the natives wouldn't even know that it happened because all the media would be immediately centralized. The government would be made of natives and structured in a puppet-state manner.

You are going to stage a coup, but hide that you did so? You want to form a secret shadow government?

[UnknownPerson]

You are going to stage a coup, but hide that you did so? You want to form a secret shadow government?

I personally don't want to do anything even related to this. This is a hypothetical question.

The population wouldn't know as all the survivors in the barracks would be killed, and barracks are usually found in places where civilian population isn't commonly found.

[Sasha]

I personally don't want to do anything even related to this. This is a hypothetical question.



troll cop out 101

[bcbm]

The population wouldn't know as all the survivors in the barracks would be killed

and of course soldiers don't have families or friends

[hatzel]

and of course soldiers don't have families or friends

...I guess they'll all just have to be killed, too...here's an idea, let's just kill the whole country and repopulate it leftists. Who are involved in the whole plan. Who know that everything is just a trick. That the free-market capitalism is just temporary, until they get a stockpile of nuclear weapons. This saves on the whole business of having to educate people, better assuring eventual success. Let's do that. As long as we don't tell people that we wiped out a whole country (including the overseas families and friends of anybody in that country, and their families and friends, and theirs...), nobody will be any the wiser, just like how they won't realise it's a commie coup if nobody tells them it is! :thumbup:

[UnknownPerson]

and of course soldiers don't have families or friends

The explosions will be blamed on Islamic terrorists. People dressed up like terrorists will be doing this. After this, a huge power vacuum will be created, and this is when the new government will move in, which would be made up of resident leftists who agree with the plan, who would make up the 'top' of the government.

[Chambered Word]

No, Western states do support countries if they highly enforce their values. Israel is an example. There's no world domination conspiracy to use Israel to take over the Arabian world. It's supported simply because it fight against the Islamic culture which most of the West hates, by killing innocent people.

actually it's because of imperialism. while this does not denote a 'world domination conspiracy to use Israel to take over the Arabian world', that would be a much better explanation than Israel 'fighting Islamic culture' because the West supposedly hates it.


Them overthrowing this puppet state is what is needed. No, they won't be all free-market capitalist, they will be communist due to the fact that there would be a high bias towards communism in the educational system which would go on for years after the state is big enough.

no because that's not what communism is mr genius.

are you really unaware of the fact that any so-called revolutionary who goes through with this will be presiding over a dictatorship in a capitalist country? socialism has nothing to do with forcing people to read shit.

please stop posting your violence wank fantasies on revleft and go read some Marxist literature, then if you're as smart as you say you are then you'll probably have something to contribute instead of trying to convince level-headed socialists about the feasibility of such ludicrous and reactionary ideas.

[hatzel]

The explosions will be blamed on Islamic terrorists. People dressed up like terrorists will be doing this.

IT'S GETTING WORSE!!! IT'S GETTING WORSE!!!

Gotta love a bit of false-flag 'just blame them pesky Muslims, who gives a fuck about them?!' type of stuff...

[UnknownPerson]

actually it's because of imperialism. while this does not denote a 'world domination conspiracy to use Israel to take over the Arabian world', that would be a much better explanation than Israel 'fighting Islamic culture' because the West supposedly hates it.



no because that's not what communism is mr genius.

are you really unaware of the fact that any so-called revolutionary who goes through with this will be presiding over a dictatorship in a capitalist country? socialism has nothing to do with forcing people to read shit.

please stop posting your violence wank fantasies on revleft and go read some Marxist literature, then if you're as smart as you say you are then you'll probably have something to contribute instead of trying to convince level-headed socialists about the feasibility of such ludicrous and reactionary ideas.

The 'big state phase' wouldn't communism nor socialism, it would be the transition phase. Please learn to read my post. The same thing applies to most of the people who have replied to my thread.

Of course Israel gets most of the support because it fights the Islamic culture which most of the West either directly or indirectly hates. If you haven't noticed, most of the Israel supporters hate Islam with passion.

[UnknownPerson]

IT'S GETTING WORSE!!! IT'S GETTING WORSE!!!

Gotta love a bit of false-flag 'just blame them pesky Muslims, who gives a fuck about them?!' type of stuff...

No, Muslim terrorism would be far more believable as Qur'an actually promotes Jihad, and the level of religiosity in the Muslim population is usually higher than in any other, so they're often likely to follow their religious scripture more than any other religion.

[hatzel]

No, Muslim terrorism would be far more believable as Qur'an actually promotes Jihad, and the level of religiosity in the Muslim population is usually higher than in any other, so they're often likely to follow it.

So your new plan is actually to just say "yo yo yo people...bunch of Muslims tried to stage a coup and take over the country, killed the whole armed forces, thousands upon thousands of people, because that's what them Muslims do, you know, they try to take over the world, but now it's a'ight 'coz we're here to fend them off"? :confused:

[UnknownPerson]

So your new plan is actually to just say "yo yo yo people...bunch of Muslims tried to stage a coup and take over the country, killed the whole armed forces, thousands upon thousands of people, because that's what them Muslims do, you know, they try to take over the world, but now it's a'ight 'coz we're here to fend them off"? :confused:

No, the new government will say that 'radical Muslims destroyed the military force and shot up the government to create a complete civil disorder', and that the new government was established to stop this disorder.

[UnknownPerson]

Anyone who hasn't figured out that I was trolling by now is a complete moron.

This thread was originally made to ridicule Third Worldists, Blanquists and all authoritarian leftists who make the leftists look bad, and I expected more people to get it.
I'm very disappointed that only a small fraction of you actually got it.

Mods are free to delete this thread if they want to. It's funny to see that this thread seems to be one which got the most popular in the shortest amount of time.

[Sasha]

remember what i posted about 5 pages ago?



maybe you should just let this stupid thread die in peace instead of embarrassing yourself any further. and yes, it is stupid and you are embarrassing yourself, and boasting about your supposed IQ doesnt help

you really should have taken my advice.

but keep going on the blame it on the muslims track and i give you another 2 pages before you will get yourself banned

[Sasha]

Anyone who hasn't figured out that I was trolling by now is a complete moron.

This thread was originally made to ridicule Third Worldists, Blanquists and all authoritarian leftists who make the leftists look bad, and I expected more people to get it.
I'm very disappointed that only a small fraction of you actually got it.

Mods are free to delete this thread if they want to. It's funny to see that this thread seems to be one which got the most popular in the shortest amount of time.

actually we ban trolls, bye....

[Q]

Anyone who hasn't figured out that I was trolling by now is a complete moron.

This thread was originally made to ridicule Third Worldists, Blanquists and all authoritarian leftists who make the leftists look bad, and I expected more people to get it.
I'm very disappointed that only a small fraction of you actually got it.

I very much doubt that anyone here actually took you serious. I for one thought you were clinically insane. But you were just another troll. Bye indeed.

[Honggweilo]

Anyone who hasn't figured out that I was trolling by now is a complete moron.

This thread was originally made to ridicule Third Worldists, Blanquists and all authoritarian leftists who make the leftists look bad, and I expected more people to get it.
I'm very disappointed that only a small fraction of you actually got it.

Mods are free to delete this thread if they want to. It's funny to see that this thread seems to be one which got the most popular in the shortest amount of time.

funny thing is most of the "authoritarians" knew you we're trolling, badly, and burried you. Plus you got banned, oh snap. Trolling is an art you're not really addept at, because a succesfull troll doesnt get himself banned.

[Bright Banana Beard]

This thread is so hilarious.

Sent from my Htcclay's SuperCM7 G2 using Tapatalk

[Aspiring Humanist]

Foreign people coming into countries and killing their soldiers is supposed to be the thing we're fighting against isn't it?

Also stop with this bullshit "hypothetical im not going to overthrow any governments or advising you to do so hee hee" this isnt a god damn jackass video nor is the fbi going to arrest you because you said you support the overthrowing of a government
jesus

[OhYesIdid]

Somalia would be easy to overthrow lolwut

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

This is brilliant, let's all invade the Vatican state and the Isle of Man!

[Sensible Socialist]

This is brilliant, let's all invade the Vatican state and the Isle of Man!
The Isle of Man sounds like a good idea. They have better credit than the U.S. :lol:

[A Marxist Historian]

The Isle of Man sounds like a good idea. They have better credit than the U.S. :lol:

Seriously, anybody who seriously thinks that left wing rule in a microstate is a good idea should check out the Grenada experience of just that.

Would be Bernard Coards we don't need.

According to Wikipedia he's out of prison now. Why don't you drop him a line and get his opinion? Likely unprintable.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Somalia would be easy to overthrow lolwut

Oh yeah? Don't know who'd tear you a new one first, the Islamics, the US puppets or the pirates.

My money is on the pirates.

OTOH, if there is anything that could reunite Somalians and make it possible for the country to straighten itself out, it would be a bunch of arrogant white leftists invading. Could be the best thing to happen to Somalia since "Blackhawk Down."

-M.H.-