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ComradePonov
4th August 2011, 19:17
Market Socialism:
A Solution to the So Called Problems of a Centrally Planned Economy


There is a sense in which socialism is thought by some to be unworkable. “Even if you were to build it under affluent conditions, how could you possibly run a complex modern economy without markets?” Since Liberals, Conservatives, and so called “protectors of freedom” are too deluded with their own definition of reality to accept a legitimate solution to this non-existent problem, I (this system was not invented by me) will propose a plan in which socialism can operate alongside the market.

The answer, for a growing number of Marxists, including myself, is that you don’t need to. In this system, markets would remain an integral part of a socialist economy. So-called market socialism envisages a future in which the means of production would be socially owned, but where self-governing cooperatives would compete with one another in the marketplace. In this way, some of the virtues of the market could be retained, while some of its vices could be shed.

At the level of individual enterprises, cooperation would ensure increased efficiency, since the evidence suggests that it is almost always as efficient as capitalist enterprise and often much more so. At the level of the economy as a whole, competition ensures that the informational, allocation and incentive problems associated with the traditional Stalinist model of central planning do not arise.

It is my opinion that Marx himself was a market socialist, at least in the sense that he believed that the market would linger on during the transitional period following a socialist revolution. He also considered that markets had emancipator as well as exploitative individuals, helping to free men and women from their previous dependence on lords and masters.

To fellow socialists who say; “How will this model prevent the rise of man-made shortages as an incentive to create profit?”

It is important to keep in mind that under market socialism, markets are by no means specific to Capitalism. Even Trotsky supported the market, though only in the period of transition to socialism and in combination with economic planning. It was needed, he thought, “as a check on the adequacy and rationality of planning, since economic accounting is unthinkable without market relations.”

Market Socialism does away with private property, social classes and exploitation. It also places economic power into the hands of the actual producers. In all of these ways, it is an advance on a capitalist economy. Still, however, I continue to sense a strong opposition amongst the left who claim “it retains too many features of that system which is to be destroyed in the revolution.” If you are still not convinced, read on.

Under market socialism there would still be commodity production, inequality, unemployment and the sway of market forces beyond human control, yes, this I do admit. However, workers would never simply be transformed into collective capitalists, maximising their profits, cutting quality, ignoring social needs and pandering to consumerism in the drive for profit. This is because education and state monitoring will diminish these dangers. Resource would be allocated by negotiations between producers, consumers, environmentalists and other relevant parties, in the networks of workplace, neighbourhood and consumer councils. The broad parameters of the economy, including decisions on the overall allocation of resources, rates of growth and investment, energy, transport, and ecological policies and the like, would be set by representative assemblies at local, regional and national levels. These general decisions about, say, allocation would then be devolved downwards to a regional and local level, where more detailed planning would be progressively worked out. At every stage, public debate over alternative economic plans and policies would be essential. In this way, what and how we produce could be determined by social need rather than private profit. Under Capitalism, we are deprived of the power to decide whether we want to produce more hospitals or more breakfast cereals. Under Socialism, this freedom would be regularly exercised.

Power in such assemblies would pass by democratic election from the bottom up rather than from the top town. Democratically elected bodies representing each branch of commerce or production would negotiate with a national economic commission to achieve an agreed set of investment decisions. Prices would be determined not centrally, but by production units on the basis of input from consumers, users, interest groups and so on. Goods which are of vital concern to the community, such as food, health, education, transport, energy, and the media, need to be brought under democratic public control, since those who run them tend to behave antisocially if they have the chance to make enlarged profits. Less socially indispensable goods, however, such as luxury products could be left to the operations of the market.

To Capitalists who cry on and on about how “everyone would be awarded equally for the same amount of work, despite differences of talent, training and occupation.”

How this limits the system proposed is beyond me. As Michael Albert puts it, “The doctor working in a plush setting with comfortable and fulfilling circumstances earns more than the assembly worker working in a horrible din, risking life and limb, and enduring boredom and denigration, regardless of how long or how hard each works.” There is, in fact, a strong case for paying those who engage in boring, heavy, dirty or dangerous work more than, say, medics or academics whose labours are more rewarding and not necessary for the survival of the economy. Much of this dirty and dangerous work could perhaps be carried out by former members of the royal family. We need to reverse our priorities indeed!

Kotze
4th August 2011, 20:03
This is going to be one of those discussions that shows that people on this forum will never agree on some basic definitions of capitalism, socialism, markets, money.

Can't say I'm too excited about what you propose. Why do you say there will be unemployment? Sounds wasteful.

Do you think workers at a local plant should have ultimate say over
who works there
how much they produce
what the price is
?

AnonymousOne
4th August 2011, 20:08
What are the steps that we take to go from Market Socialism to a classless society? Is inequality inherent in that kind of framework? What can be done to try to prevent inequality?

For example, if Workers Collective Carrot Farm 45, is able to sell more/produce more, than those workers will have more than other workers.

EDIT: I know you mentioned on your response to my comment on your blog that such a move would be done gradually, but could you give an example of what could be done after X many years of Market Socialism.

ComradePonov
4th August 2011, 21:15
I myself never claimed that Market Socialism would be free of inequality. I openly admit that inequality and inconsistencies in wages would still exist, though capital would be much less concentrated compared to Capitalism.

However, one significant change would be that the market would run on the basis of workers competing with workers. More importantly, the system proposed fixes the traditional issues with a centrally planned economy, since resources would be managed through input from workers councils and organizations, as opposed to one main organization determining who needs what. This way, goods would be allocated to where they are more socially needed, and at the same time, unhealthy competition would be eliminated as the system is democratically run, meaning those who allocate resources based on personal need and the incentive of profit would be instantly removed.

Market Socialism is by no means perfect. I don't claim it is. However, it is a great improvement on both Capitalism and the traditional centrally planned economy which repeatedly has been shown to fail.

As far as the transitional period between market socialism and class-less society, I will have to think about the concept some more. I don’t have an answer for you at this time. I would like to first consult my economics professor before outlining the transitional period between market-socialism and total class-less society.

Kotze
4th August 2011, 22:07
Is your econ prof familiar with linear programming?

ComradePonov
4th August 2011, 22:19
Is your econ prof familiar with linear programming?

Is this in regards to a centrally planned economy?


Indeed, he is. However, It is interesting to note that in order to manage an economy that produces a measly 10^6 goods, even advanced computers which calculate some twenty million arithmetic operations per second would take about sixteen thousand years to calculate all the variables. This of course presumes all the variables to be static, which they are not. If there was some way of actually taking into account every variable, static and not, we would have infinite equations to calculate.

There is no mathematical solution to an economy. We’ve talked about this in depth, it will never work out. it's impossible.

Proukunin
4th August 2011, 22:33
I think that this is an improvement from capitalism, but also do not agree on workers competing with one another. Competition isn't something i'm attracted to and even if this is a step above capitalism. How can this ever lead to communism?

Kotze
4th August 2011, 22:35
According to Cockshott and Cottrell it does not take several thousand years or even a week to come up with a usable approximation, since most cells in the input-output table are empty.

ComradePonov
4th August 2011, 23:15
I think that this is an improvement from capitalism, but also do not agree on workers competing with one another. Competition isn't something i'm attracted to and even if this is a step above capitalism. How can this ever lead to communism?


A market cannot operate without competition. There is no suitable method of allocating resources known to man that does not involve some type of competition. That is, ofcousre, unless you get rid of the market entirely. But I belive that is not possible in the transitional period between Capitalism and Communism.

I suggest you read what I mean by competition in my replies and in the article. When I say competition, I don't mean the traditional competition which exists in a capitalist society where the ultimate result is the concentration of capital amongst a few, while the masses get only what they require to live. That is never going to happen under market socialism.

Under this system, competition only exists to aid workers councils and national organizations to determine where to allocate resources. If there is no competition there is no source of knowledge which aids in the process of allocating resources from where they are less socially needed to where they are more socially needed.

Paul Cockshott
4th August 2011, 23:32
Is this in regards to a centrally planned economy?


Indeed, he is. However, It is interesting to note that in order to manage an economy that produces a measly 10^6 goods, even advanced computers which calculate some twenty million arithmetic operations per second would take about sixteen thousand years to calculate all the variables. This of course presumes all the variables to be static, which they are not. If there was some way of actually taking into account every variable, static and not, we would have infinite equations to calculate.

There is no mathematical solution to an economy. We’ve talked about this in depth, it will never work out. it's impossible.
These figures are wildly innaccurate the time to compute a balanced plan for an economy with 10^6 products is of the order of a few minutes on an intel Xeon, see the following paper by me, Greg Michaelson and Allin Cottrell:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.63.9270&rep=rep1&type=pdf

gendoikari
5th August 2011, 00:00
I joined the revleft group but only in so far as I believe market socialism is a good 3rd stage step to true utopian communism. Not the first step to it, and far from the last but a good one.

gendoikari
5th August 2011, 00:06
See the way I envisage things going is unions being given greater and greater control over corporations. Then Unions dissolving into the corporations being the ONLY governing part. I.E. Unions done away with and the corporations being run like small democracies. At that point I think implementing this "market socialism" would be prudent. But after that, there would have to be a more complex means of control over the corporations, that incorporates those whom the companies effect, thereby limiting externalities. Moving along the stock market would be totally dissolved, we would begin bringing wages to a singularity. Which after that with the introduction of a robotacized workforce we would dissolve the currency system alltogether.

ComradePonov
5th August 2011, 00:22
These figures are wildly innaccurate the time to compute a balanced plan for an economy with 10^6 products is of the order of a few minutes on an intel Xeon, see the following paper by me, Greg Michaelson and Allin Cottrell:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.63.9270&rep=rep1&type=pdf


I look forward to reading your paper, however it seems that my computer can not open your link.

I've send you a private message.


Edit: This is quiete an interesting dilema. I actually chose to use that paper as a reference in one of my papers, and have used it in my research in the past.

I actually submitted an article as an assignment which dealt with the problems of a centrally planned economy. I've already read that paper and used it as a reference on a previous assignment.

I'm going to look through my hard drive to see if I still have that journal. I'll just pm you a copy so you can read my thoughts.

Dogs On Acid
5th August 2011, 00:38
Market Socialism, like Reformist Socialism, is just.... meh

Paul Cockshott
5th August 2011, 18:31
I look forward to reading your paper, however it seems that my computer can not open your link.

I've send you a private message.


Edit: This is quiete an interesting dilema. I actually chose to use that paper as a reference in one of my papers, and have used it in my research in the past.

I actually submitted an article as an assignment which dealt with the problems of a centrally planned economy. I've already read that paper and used it as a reference on a previous assignment.

I'm going to look through my hard drive to see if I still have that journal. I'll just pm you a copy so you can read my thoughts.

This is the relevant section of the article




Assume, following Lange (1938), that the planning authorities have
a current estimate of consumer demand for nal outputs. The planners
start with the required net output. This is shown on the rst line of
Table 1. We assume that 20000 tons of coal and 1000 tons of bread are
the consumer goods required.
They estimate how much iron, corn, coal, and labour would be directly
consumed in producing the nal output: 2000 tons of iron, 1500 tons of
corn and 4500 additional tons of coal.
They add the intermediate inputs to the net output to get a rst estimate
of the gross usage of goods. Since this estimate involved producing
more iron, coal and corn than they had at rst allowed for, they repeat
the calculation to get a second estimate of the gross usage of goods.
The answers dier each time round, but the dierences between sucessive
answers get smaller and smaller. Eventually, ( assuming integer
quantities are used) after 20 attempts in this example, the planners get a
consistent result: if the population is to consume 20000 tons of coal and
1000 tons of bread, then the gross output of iron must be 3708 tons, coal
must be 34896 tons and that that of corn 1667 tons.
Is it feasible to scale this up to the number of goods produced in a real
economy?
Whilst the calculations would have been impossibly tedious to do by
hand in the 1930s, they are readily automated. Table 1 was produced by
running a computer algorithm. If detailed planning is to be feasible, we
need to know:
1. How many types of goods an economy produces.
2. How many types of inputs are used to produce each output.
3. How fast a computer program running the algorithm would be for
the scale of data provided in (1) and (2).
Table 2 illustrates the eect of running the planning algorithm on a cheap
personal computer of 2004 vintage. We determined the calculation time
for economies whose number of industries ranged from one thousand to one
million. Two dierent assumptions were tested for the way in which the
mean number of inputs used to make a good depends on the complexity
of the economy.
It is clear that the number of direct inputs used to manufacture each
product is only a tiny fraction of the range of goods produced in an economy.
It is also plausible that as industrial complexity develops, the mean
number of inputs used to produce each output will also grow, but more
slowly. In the rst part of Table 2 it is assumed that the mean number of
inputs (M) grows as the square root of the number of nal outputs (N).
In the second part of the table the growth of M is assumed to follow a
logarithmic law.
It can be seen that calculation times are modest even for very big
economic models. The apparently daunting million equation foe, yields
gracefully to the modest home computer. The limiting factor in the experiments
is computer memory. The largest model tested required 1.5
Gigabytes of memory larger models would have required a more advanced
64-bit computer.
5
Table 2: Timings for applying the planning algorithm to model economies of
dierent sizes. Timings were performed on a 3 Ghz Intel Zeon running Linux,
with 2 GB of memory.
Industries Mean Inputs CPU Time Memory
Columns are N M seconds bytes
Law M = sqrt(N)
1,000 30 0.1 150KB
10,000 100 3.8 5MB
40,000 200 33.8 64MB
160,000 400 77.1 512MB
320,000 600 166.0 1.5G
Law M varies as log(N)
1,000 30 0.1 150KB
10,000 40 1.6 2.4MB
100,000 50 5.8 40MB
1,000,000 60 68.2 480MB
The experiment went up to 1 million products. The number of industrial
products in the Soviet economy was estimated by Nove (1983) to be
around of 10 million. Nove believed this number was so huge as to rule
out any possibility of constructing a balanced disagregated plan. This
may well have been true with the computer technology available in the
1970s, but the situation is now quite dierent.




Format is not good for the tables in the above

Thirsty Crow
5th August 2011, 20:27
One quick remark (but I'll be back): I don't think it is meaningful to claim that the "Stalinist" model had difficulties with incentives if we recall piece work wages and the phenomenon of Stakhanovists.

Die Neue Zeit
6th August 2011, 01:26
This is going to be one of those discussions that shows that people on this forum will never agree on some basic definitions of capitalism, socialism, markets, money.

Some people around this board here are just too steeped in their own, more intellectual definitions. :(