role of religion

[tradeunionsupporter]

I think I understand the role of religion in it's role in keeping the Working Class oppressed while it may be true that religion existed before Capitalism and class based society I would say religion is still used as a tool for harm because racism tribalism and or nationalism also may have existed before Capitalism and economic classes but they are still tools to harm people does anyone agree ?

Does FSP hold to atheism as part of its doctrine?



Yes. We believe that the concept of God and the heavenly after-world are put forth as a substitute for a decent life in this world. Organized religion is a pacifier, a hoax, and a defender of the status quo and the bourgeoisie.At the same time, we uphold the right of anyone to believe and worship as they choose. Religion is a private affair which we expect to vanish as humanity increasingly controls its own destiny. In the meantime, we oppose the ill-gotten wealth, tax cuts, privilege, reaction and political influence of the institutionalized church.

http://www.socialism.com/drupal-6.8/?q=node/291

[RedBaltico]

For me it seems the religion is good only in brainwashing and misleading the people, its existence is already dangerous, promising a heaven only after death but not a heaven on the planet, so it means die anyways and then ''live'' good :confused:

In one stage we could agree that religion was made a bit more social ideology towards the life in some cases, but it is still unequal and so while rape for a christian is a crime, but for a priest it can be exception, it's all works as a hierarchy, same as a king can be exception and can't be punished, so can a priest.

and about god, here is a good quote from ancient Greek philosopher:

''Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?''
- Epicurus

[TheGeekySocialist]

religion is problematic, it's historical use in organized form is purely for purposes of ruling class control over the people...not to mention its opiate like effects on society...people turn to sky fairys and the ruling class created dogma of it...we need to make sure people turn to something real, concrete, like Socialism and Humanism, at the moment it serves as a distraction from reality in this way...

that said, religion also has it's positives, the key principles that MOST people who are religious claim to adhere to, they are...good, compassion, empathy, equality even, to many religious people these are what comes from or drives there faith...this suggests a deeper issue, perhaps the removal of capitalism, the improvment in education, the removal of the organisational side that creates a collosal church worldwide and a strict dogma, maybe without these things, it can offer people something, as a way to believe in themselves or humanity better, this is, unfortunatley, an abstract debate for now though.

[Euronymous]

It has no purpose other than to comfort those who do not wish to go out and attempt to change something. Religious people say they do but they do it for reward and they usually help in the very short term. Such as give the poor food for a day but don't look as to WHY they are poor in the first place and how they could possibly fix it. They'd much rather go to church and listen to a preacher on how to conduct their lives without actually looking at how much they could participate in making an absolute difference without religion.

The only role religion has in society is to segregate and condemn those who are not in the herd of wishful supernatural thinking. Sadly you can't reason with religious people without being called a bigot for bringing up questions on their belief.

Heaven Shall Burn - The Greatest Gift of God

[Commissar Rykov]

Religion should strictly be a personal matter. I feel that anyone who feels the need to thought police you has other issues they need to worry about other than ones religious beliefs. Religion will have no role in a socialist society because it will no longer be a tool to be used but it should remain as a purely personal matter.

We would not kick in the doors of peoples homes to dictate sexual policy with their partner so we should not be kicking in doors to dictate policy of who people do or do not pray to or worship.

[Commissar Rykov]

It has no purpose other than to comfort those who do not wish to go out and attempt to change something. Religious people say they do but they do it for reward and they usually help in the very short term. Such as give the poor food for a day but don't look as to WHY they are poor in the first place and how they could possibly fix it. They'd much rather go to church and listen to a preacher on how to conduct their lives without actually looking at how much they could participate in making an absolute difference without religion.

The only role religion has in society is to segregate and condemn those who are not in the herd of wishful supernatural thinking. Sadly you can't reason with religious people without being called a bigot for bringing up questions on their belief.
I am religious and I consider all those things and I know many other people of faith who do as well. This is why using broad attacks like this are useless because it shows a lack of knowledge of the people you are attempting to denigrate and it shows a bizarre authoritarian streak to call people out as not being class conscious because they are part of said group. The Far Left could do with learning some lessons on this matter and spend less time obsessing over it and spending more time helping the Working Class.

[TheGeekySocialist]

Religion should strictly be a personal matter. I feel that anyone who feels the need to thougth police you has other issues they need to worry about other than ones religious beliefs. Religion will have no role in a socialist society because it will no longer be a tool to be used but it should remain as a purely personal matter.

We would not kick in the doors of peoples homes to dictate sexual policy with their partner so we should not be kicking in doors to dictate policy of who people do or do not pray to or worship.

this is also a good point, if people do still want to believe, what gives us the right to stop them?

[Commissar Rykov]

this is also a good point, if people do still want to believe, what gives us the right to stop them?
Indeed, religion as it is now will no longer exist in a Socialist State because largely organized religion in its current form is nothing more than an attempt at control. I foresee that religion will shift with the material conditions and likely bring about something much less in your face, obnoxious, etc.

[TheGeekySocialist]

Indeed, religion as it is now will no longer exist in a Socialist State because largely organized religion in its current form is nothing more than an attempt at control. I foresee that religion will shift with the material conditions and likely bring about something much less in your face, obnoxious, etc.

I agree, that's essentially where I was going with my earlier post, I think its important we understand two fundemental things about it;

1. what is Religion and what does it result in within Capitalism.
2. why are people religious.

only by understanding these things and relating to people who are religious through our understanding of this, can we convince them of the need for Socialism and also undermine the existing systems in place.

[hatzel]

we need to make sure people turn to something real, concrete, like [...] Humanism

You speak almost as if Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger, Althusser and, one could argue, Marx, along with Foucault, Derrida et al., haven't dedicated page after page to denying that Humanism is anything like real or concrete...

[TheGeekySocialist]

You speak almost as if Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger, Althusser and, one could argue, Marx, along with Foucault, Derrida et al., haven't dedicated page after page to denying that Humanism is anything like real or concrete...

it's more real in the sense that it is belief in humanity and humans which are demonstrably real rather than an abstract deity.

[Commissar Rykov]

I agree, that's essentially where I was going with my earlier post, I think its important we understand two fundemental things about it;

1. what is Religion and what does it result in within Capitalism.
2. why are people religious.

only by understanding these things and relating to people who are religious through our understanding of this, can we convince them of the need for Socialism and also undermine the existing systems in place.

Religion has shifted with the material conditions before and it will continue to do so. Now we will see a complete shattering of what little power they hold since the Bourgeoisie Revolutions and largely return to a personal matter as it should.

I know posting as a religious person here on Revleft usually means I'm on the out with the majority but I don't mind. I do mind though when people like Euronymous accuse me of not being class conscious or only doing good things because I expect some eternal reward. I've always given what I could to the homeless to make sure they had a place to stay or food to eat even if it put me in a bind because the reality is I have been in their shoes and it sucks. Hell I go out of my way and drive homeless people to court dates so that way they don't pick up extra charges because they were unable to find transportation to the court house. Never once in all my time doing Workplace Agitation, Sabotage or helping my fellow man did the thought of eternal reward come up. What came up is that I need to help people because the rest of the tidal wave of humanity will ignore or sweep the disadvantaged away because of the vapidness of Modern Society and a need to ignore what could easily happen to any Proletariat in the current system.

Sorry to rant but honestly I grow tired of attacks from certain individuals that claim just because one is religious they are some kind of reactionary hivemind.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The thing is, even if religion wasn't a handy tool for oppressing the masses, and even if it didn't spread by infecting minds before they can establish adequate intellectual defences, think of the colossal waste of precious and limited lifespan spent in pleading with various non-existent entities.

That time could have been much better spent on people who actually exist.

[chimx]

That time could have been much better spent on people who actually exist.

Says the guy talking with anonymous strangers on an internet forum?


I think I understand the role of religion in it's role in keeping the Working Class oppressed

religion exists as part of of societies superstructure to perpetuate the current production paradigm, but it is more dynamic than that. To say it "oppresses the <blank> class" is way too black and white. As part of the superstructure it organically mirrors the culture and values that already exist under the current mode of production

But think back in history about when there have been economic paradigm shifts. Religion shifted to meet the needs of these changes to the mode of production -- just as every other of the social superstructure did. It is susceptible to changes in cultural values and economic realities. Because of that it isn't really accurate to say, "religion oppresses the working class". I think it is more fitting that that religion within the capitalist paradigm naturally has a tendency to perpetuate a value system that is oppressive to working peoples.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Says the guy talking with anonymous strangers on an internet forum?

Time has not dulled your instinct for opening wide your mouth and planting both feet inside, I see.

Yes, anonymous strangers over the internet are real people, except for the bots which are fairly obvious - they're usually the ones trying to sell you something.

The fact that such communication is not face-to-face has nothing to do with whether or not I am talking to real people.

[chimx]

I'm not suggesting that they don't exist. I'm suggesting that it isn't any less productive. ;)

[eyeheartlenin]

When I was a kid, I used to collect stamps, and so I had a Scott's Catalogue, which listed and illustrated many stamps issued by the US and other countries.

During the early years of its existence, the German Democratic Republic, the DDR, "East Germany," issued stamps commemorating Thomas Müntzer, an Anabaptist (Protestant) pastor, who in August 1524 became one of the leaders of the uprising against the nobility, known as the Peasants' War; in May 1525, Müntzer led a group of 8,000 peasants in a battle at Frankenhausen, in Thuringia, Germany. Müntzer faced defeat, capture, imprisonment, and torture; he was ultimately beheaded in mid-1525.

The Anabaptists, the radical wing of the Protestant Reformation (16th century), were the first people in European history who stood for freedom of conscience and the separation of religion from the state, both of which were progressive demands in their time.

In our own time, liberation theology has flourished in Latin America, where Christians have played an honorable role is popular struggles against oligarchic rule, which earned the Latin American church a rebuke from the Vatican, under Pope John Paul II.

The whole matter, religion's role in history, is too complicated to be described by a simple condemnation of religion.

[chimx]

When I was a kid, I used to collect stamps, and so I had a Scott's Catalogue, which listed and illustrated many stamps issued by the US and other countries.

During the early years of its existence, the German Democratic Republic, the DDR, "East Germany," issued stamps commemorating Thomas Müntzer, an Anabaptist (Protestant) pastor, who in August 1524 became one of the leaders of the uprising against the nobility, later known as the Peasants' War; in May 1525, Müntzer led a group of 8,000 peasants in a battle at Frankenhausen, in Thuringia, Germany. Müntzer faced defeat, capture, imprisonment, and torture; he was ultimately beheaded in mid 1525.

The Anabpatists, the radical wing of the Protestant Reformation (16th century), were the first people in history who stood for freedom of conscience and the separation of religion from the state, both of which were progressive demands in their own time.

In our own time, liberation theology has flourished in Latin America, where Christians have played an honorable role is popular struggle against oligarchic rule, which earned the Latin American church a rebuke from the Vatican, under Pope John Paul II.

The whole matter, religion's role in history, is too complicated to be described by a simple condemnation of religion.

That's an excellent example. I generally fall back on the french revolution and the division of the church to side with the old feudal establishment and those that sided with the new rising bourgeoisie. There are mountains of examples throughout history that show the dynamism of religion and the dynamism or social superstructure.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm not suggesting that they don't exist. I'm suggesting that it isn't any less productive. ;)

Time spent with other people, even if they are total strangers, is always more worthy than time spent with fictional entities.

[Bud Struggle]

Indeed, religion as it is now will no longer exist in a Socialist State because largely organized religion in its current form is nothing more than an attempt at control. I foresee that religion will shift with the material conditions and likely bring about something much less in your face, obnoxious, etc.

I just returned from a visit to the largest and fastest growing Christian country in the world--Communist China. Christianity is a real hot discussion point there; I was question on a couple of occasions about Jesus in a way people would almost never do in the West. It seems to me that nothing is set in stone--there may be no real winner--just the eternal yin and yang of God--no God.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I just returned from a visit to the largest and fastest growing Christian country in the world--Communist China. Christianity is a real hot discussion point there; I was question on a couple of occasions about Jesus in a way people would almost never do in the West. It seems to me that nothing is set in stone--there may be no real winner--just the eternal yin and yang of God--no God.

Ugh, fucking missionaries. If China had any sense they'd expel them all. Hell, it's sound advice for any country.

[ComradeMan]

Ugh, fucking missionaries. If China had any sense they'd expel them all. Hell, it's sound advice for any country.

Christianity has existed in China since c 86 CE/AD the rule of the early Han Dynasty.

http://www.chinaartnetworks.com/news/show_news.php?id=1369

It was reestablised in the 12th-13th centuries in Nestorian form. There are/were also Chinese Muslims and Jews.

Seeing as Mao did so much to trash traditional Chinese religions and beliefs in the so-called Cultural Revolution it's not a surprise that a spiritual void may have opened that Chinese people seek to fill with Christianity. Proselytism by non-Chinese groups is also restricted by the Chinese government so I should imagine most "missionaries" who do not get arrested are Chinese themselves.

Perhaps Iseul could give us some more information on this.