Are the Police/Cops Proletarians or Bourgeoisie ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Are the Police/Cops Proletarians or Bourgeoisie are the Police/Cops exploited by the Bourgeoisie do the Bourgeoisie make a profit off of the Cops/Police ? Also my final question is since the Police/Cops have Trade Unions or Labor/Labour Unions does this make them Proletarians ?

International Union of Police Associations
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The International Union of Police Associations (also known as IUPA or I.U.P.A.) is a North American trade union chartered for law enforcement, corrections and related support personnel. IUPA is a participant in the AFL-CIO federation of trade unions. I.U.P.A. was originally chartered as the "National Conference of Police Associations" (N.C.P.A.) in 1954. In 1966 the organization's charter changed to include Canadian police associations, leading to a change of name to the "International Conference of Police Associations" (I.C.P.A.). A split among member organizations over whether or not to join the AFL-CIO was led by Edward J Kiernan, the ICPA President to leave the ICPA and form the I.U.P.A., which joined the AFL-CIO in 1979. Kiernan, then served as the first I.U.P.A. President. The focus of IUPA expanded during the 1990s to include corrections personnel and other law enforcement organizations. I.U.P.A. is governed by a President, Vice-President and Board; the Board representing the 14 geographical regions that the organization covers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Union_of_Police_Associations
European association of the Bodies and Public Organisms of Security and of Defense
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The European Association of Bodies and Public Organizations of Security and Defense (known in French as Association Européenne des Corps et Organismes Publiques de Sécurité et de Défense or AE-COPSD) is a non-profit, voluntary association of individuals who work in various law enforcement agencies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_agency) and detachments across Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe). Its primary purpose is to organize and promote joint training and skills development activities for law enforcement professionals who work in police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police), corrections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections), military police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_police), and other first responder units in various European nations.

They also organizes recreational events and competitions for its members. These include shooting competitions where members are encouraged to compete in various national marksmanship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship) competitions. In addition to encouraging participation in international (European) sports competitions, they also organizes events where individuals from member agencies compete for the AE-COPSD Sports badge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AE-COPSD_Sports_badge).

Some of the more notable and participated events are the paratrooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratrooper) events were the host country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country) has a certified military jump master at the jump zone. This is because many members are also in their countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries) military reserve. They can be awarded Jump Wings from the host country and also the AE-COPSD Paratroopers Wings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AE-COPSD_Paratroopers_Wings).

AE-COPSD also awards the AE-COPSD European Police Cross of Honor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AE-COPSD_European_Police_Cross_of_Honor). This medal can be awarded to any law enforcement official from any country who, in the opinion of AE-COPSD; shows the highest standards of Loyalty, Integrity & Courage. The Cross of Honor is not limited to professionals from Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_association_of_the_Bodies_and_Public_Orga nisms_of_Security_and_of_Defense
Police strikes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A police strike occurs when law enforcement is affected by a labour dispute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_dispute). They are extremely rare. Generally, they are illegal, but for obvious reasons this law is difficult to enforce. The few times throughout history when there has been a large scale strike among law enforcement, civil unrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_unrest) has resulted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_strikes

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

They are tools in more than one sense of the word.

[graymouser]

Leon Trotsky, "Fascism: What it is and How to Fight It":


Consciousness is determined by environment even in this instance. The worker who becomes a policeman in the service of the capitalist state, is a bourgeois cop, not a worker. Of late years, these policemen have had to do much more fighting with revolutionary workers than with Nazi students. Such training does not fail to leave its effects. And above all: every policeman knows that though governments may change, the police remains.
I don't think that police unions change the class nature of the police; if anything, their fight for better conditions and against management is in favor of corruption within the police force. (And there should be no question that cops are on the take; you should simply assume that all of them are.)

[Comrade Jandar]

Fairly sure they would fall under proletarians since they do not own any means of production and generally are employees rather than employers. Either way they are what we would call "self-appointed guardians of the status-quo."

[Hit The North]

Like the army, the average police officer is drawn from the working class and is subject to disciplinary control by a hierarchy who's upper echelons are drawn from the upper middle and ruling classes. So as an institution it is a microcosm of the class structure. This explains why rank and file officers may feel the need for representation in the form of associations or unions.

In terms of its social role, like the army, it exists to enforce class rule. This may consist in the military occupation and control of inner city areas and working class estates; or being used as a violent force, on behalf of the bosses, in labour disputes, or on behalf of the capitalist state during political demonstrations and riots.

So whatever class origin individual officers may come from, the essential function of the institution in society is always a reactionary one.

[scarletghoul]

technically theyre workers but their role is to protect the capitalist order and the private property of the bourgeosie, which makes them class traitors. in the practice of class war they are not on our side.

[Book O'Dead]

Like the army, the average police officer is drawn from the working class and is subject to disciplinary control by a hierarchy who's upper echelons are drawn from the upper middle and ruling classes. So as an institution it is a microcosm of the class structure. This explains why rank and file officers may feel the need for representation in the form of associations or unions.

In terms of its social role, like the army, it exists to enforce class rule. This may consist in the military occupation and control of inner city areas and working class estates; or being used as a violent force, on behalf of the bosses, in labour disputes, or on behalf of the capitalist state during political demonstrations and riots.

So whatever class origin individual officers may come from, the essential function of the institution in society is always a reactionary one.

I think this comes closest to an accurate definition of the social role and class character of those that make up the bulk of present-day capitalist "law enforcement".

The correct way to evaluate a sector of society as to class character is by analysing their relationship to the means of production and the role they play in the social antagonism that ensues, i.e, the class struggle.

That said, I'm interested to hear from others in Revleft about how they think a revolutionary insurrection should handle the police problem, before, during and after the event.
Do we ignore them? Enlist their support wherever possible? "Take up arms" against them? Do we assimilate, abolish or liquidate? That is the question.

Also this is really an issue of proletarian law enforcement. What laws do we intend to enact in order to protect the revolution, how and by whom shall they be enforced?

In Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story", there appears at least one example of police officers who have expressed genuine desire to perform social good. Can we explore this phenomenon to our collective benefit and revolutionary edification?

[Aspiring Humanist]

A cop defends the rich, oppresses the poor, beats minorities, and has an awful sense of superiority

Not something to be respected

[Morgenstern]

Depends on the cop. Some cops do it out of wanting to help people. Other cops just like having a gun and like being asses about it all. These cops are not our friends.

[Hit The North]

As an agency of the capitalist state the police force will need to be smashed, whether through physical force, demoralisation, defection or a combination of these. A revolutionary situation is likely to see the growth of parallel organisations from the working class and a situation of dual power (workers militias versus state police, for instance). Individual police who defect over to the militias should be welcomed as returners to the working class. But this will necessitate their rejection of their badge, uniform and previous allegiance, of course.

[graymouser]

Depends on the cop. Some cops do it out of wanting to help people. Other cops just like having a gun and like being asses about it all. These cops are not our friends.
So their personal intent about doing their job determines their class position? "Good cops" are workers, "bad cops" aren't?

It simply doesn't work. Good or bad, cops have an objective position as the mailed fist of the capitalist state that prevents them from being on the side of the working class. Regardless of their subjective intentions, the cops are the ones who put people in jail, who spy on and harass strikers and protesters, who keep bourgeois "order." It isn't related to their own thoughts and whether they want to help people, it's a question of objective interests.

[tradeunionsupporter]

Thank you for your answers.

[Nial Fossjet]

What about firemen?

[AnonymousOne]

So their personal intent about doing their job determines their class position? "Good cops" are workers, "bad cops" aren't?

It simply doesn't work. Good or bad, cops have an objective position as the mailed fist of the capitalist state that prevents them from being on the side of the working class. Regardless of their subjective intentions, the cops are the ones who put people in jail, who spy on and harass strikers and protesters, who keep bourgeois "order." It isn't related to their own thoughts and whether they want to help people, it's a question of objective interests.

I largely agree with you, however, in cases where a section of the police, or some police come over to the side of revolution they should be genuinely accepted. I think that one caveat is important, they are proleteriat in the sense that they are exploited by the bourgeoise, but that doesn't necessarily make them our ally.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

[A Marxist Historian]

Fairly sure they would fall under proletarians since they do not own any means of production and generally are employees rather than employers. Either way they are what we would call "self-appointed guardians of the status-quo."

They are employees only in the same sense CEOs are employees. Their labor does not add value to any product or commodity, nor does it help to circulate, transport or preserve value.

Rather, their purpose is to assist capitalists in extracting surplus value from proletarians in the commodity production process. They are neither capitalist exploiters nor working class exploitees, rather they are as somebody already pointed out *tools* in the exploitation process, not different ultimately from the guns and nightsticks they carry.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Like the army, the average police officer is drawn from the working class and is subject to disciplinary control by a hierarchy who's upper echelons are drawn from the upper middle and ruling classes. So as an institution it is a microcosm of the class structure. This explains why rank and file officers may feel the need for representation in the form of associations or unions.

In terms of its social role, like the army, it exists to enforce class rule. This may consist in the military occupation and control of inner city areas and working class estates; or being used as a violent force, on behalf of the bosses, in labour disputes, or on behalf of the capitalist state during political demonstrations and riots.

So whatever class origin individual officers may come from, the essential function of the institution in society is always a reactionary one.

They call 'em "officers" for a reason. They are like the officers in armies, not like rank and file soldiers.

The purpose of an army is to defend the country against other countries. The purpose of the police is to defend the ruling class against the population of its own country. Very, very different.

That is why the army comes over to the people in *every* successful revolution, whereas cops will only come over to the people occasionally as individuals, almost never in groups.

In the Russian Revolution, the workers simply killed every policeman they could get their hands on, and here I mean February, not the Bolshevik Revolution in October. Police claiming to come over to the side of the revolution were usually disbelieved and killed anyway.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

What about firemen?

Firemen are workers. They put out fires. A very good thing.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

I largely agree with you, however, in cases where a section of the police, or some police come over to the side of revolution they should be genuinely accepted. I think that one caveat is important, they are proleteriat in the sense that they are exploited by the bourgeoise, but that doesn't necessarily make them our ally.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Policemen claiming to come over to the revolution generally should not be trusted, as it is probably a trick.

However, individual exceptions are always possible. Human beings can be complicated creatures.

Some capitalists have been known to come over to the side of revolutions too.

-M.H.-

[Susurrus]

What about policemen who are not involved with private property, ie homicide detectives?

Also, I would argue that the intent does effect the labeling of the action. If a person joins the police to protect the people rather than protect the bourgeosie, then he is different from the policeman who relishes beating down the people. The former would have to be careful about his actions, but it could happen. Riot cops and their ilk are a different story though.

[Susurrus]

Policemen claiming to come over to the revolution generally should not be trusted, as it is probably a trick.

However, individual exceptions are always possible. Human beings can be complicated creatures.

Some capitalists have been known to come over to the side of revolutions too.

-M.H.-

I remember a news story about how some cops had been authorized to have sex and relationships in infiltrating leftist movements as deep cover, and that several of them broke off contact with the police and went over to the leftist side. As I recall a couple went awol as well without the sex, so it is possible that when they learn the truth about our cause they see the justice in it.

[Viet Minh]

ITT: people dissing the cops (rightly so) but would gladly ressurect the Cheka/ KGB/ NKGB etc

[A Marxist Historian]

What about policemen who are not involved with private property, ie homicide detectives?

Also, I would argue that the intent does effect the labeling of the action. If a person joins the police to protect the people rather than protect the bourgeosie, then he is different from the policeman who relishes beating down the people. The former would have to be careful about his actions, but it could happen. Riot cops and their ilk are a different story though.

Private detectives are all about private property, totally. As for homicide detectives, or any kind of detective within the police force as opposed to a beat cop, that's a position of honor a cop gets to after years of experience as a beat cop, beating people up on the streets.

Who do police who join the force to "protect the people" think they are protecting them from? Lawbreakers, that's who. In a bourgeois society, law is a vehicle for oppressing the people on behalf of the ruling class. And most lawbreakers who the police go after are the poor and racial minorities.

Not by some sort of accident, but by the nature of the legal system and the nature of society. Even if a cop does not realise this from the day he joins the force, he learns this by experience, and it quickly becomes a reflex he absorbs into his skin.

And this is in times of relative class peace. When class conflict develops, the workers are his enemy, and he quickly grows to hate them, whatever his own social background may happen to be.

Basically, what police are about is preserving "law and order." The "thin blue line" between bourgeois society and the chaos and anarchy lurking within it. That's what people who join the police want to be part of, regardless of whether they are evil sadists or wannabe nice guys.

Generally, it is the True Believers who are the most brutal ones. The ones who don't really believe in the police mission are often less brutal, but usually more crooked. By and large, the most civilized and reasonable cops are also the most greedy and corrupt.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

I remember a news story about how some cops had been authorized to have sex and relationships in infiltrating leftist movements as deep cover, and that several of them broke off contact with the police and went over to the leftist side. As I recall a couple went awol as well without the sex, so it is possible that when they learn the truth about our cause they see the justice in it.

Well, sure, some cops get sick of it all and tear off their badges and get an honest job. The Serpico phenomenon.

But that's not what we're talking about here.

-M.H.-