What can be done about North Korea from a leftist perspective?

[Comintern1919]

I'm sure most of us agree that North Korea isn't more than an opressiv, entirely non-communistic dictatorship, in which the people, which we as communists want to be happy, are in fact suffering, not only due to famines, but also 'cause of no freedom whatsoever.

And let's not forget the personal cult of the most ugliest persons, Kim Il-Sung and Kim Yong-Il, who's said to be born under a Rainbow, and can change the weather, and can do many other wonderous things.

So the question is, what can we as revolutionary leftists do about such a regime? Surely you agree we must to something, else it will continue to be used as an argument against socialism. A good one most believe.

And for all those Juche-Lovers, and any other too, I recomend the documentation "A state of Mind" which is completly avaible on Youtube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nd-iSCy1og


Should we hope for another, real socialist revolution? Can we do anything to help? Or is there anyone who think a major country like China or even the USA should do something? Share your opinion!

[eric922]

North Korea is a very strange case. They are used to attack communism, but all references to communism have been removed from their Constitution. The works of Marx haven't been available to the average person for sometime.

The state itself functions closer to some ancient monarchy than a socialist state. The Kim line holds absolute power and they pretty much attribute miracles to them.

Oh and to top it all off they are opening a KFC complete with coca-cola in the capital.

[ComradeMan]

There was a programme on TV a few weeks ago where this doctor went to N.Korea to heal blind people and train N.Korean doctors. Immediately after the restoration of their sight the people went in front of the pictures of Kim-Il Sung and started bowing and praising their leader. I got the impression, as did the reporters (National Geographic I think...) that the people were more doing this out of fear of what would happen if they didn't.

Do you remember Kim-Il Sung's funeral?

This to me is just crazy....

pDOMyNOS4sc

[DinodudeEpic]

Do EVERYTHING you can do to destroy North Korea's government. Total War is what we need. (Not really, but still....do whatever you can. :laugh:) Attack the government via trolling, spamming, hacking, and crashing their sites/other internet places. Attempt to create revolutionary groups. Try to put attention to the government's atrocities. Condemn the government. As for actually overthrowing it, you would need a significant revolutionary movement. North Korea has none.

And, a good way to clear our name is to call North Korea, the Kingdom of Korea.

[Comintern1919]

There was a programme on TV a few weeks ago where this doctor went to N.Korea to heal blind people and train N.Korean doctors. Immediately after the restoration of their sight the people went in front of the pictures of Kim-Il Sung and started bowing and praising their leader. I got the impression, as did the reporters (National Geographic I think...) that the people were more doing this out of fear of what would happen if they didn't.

Do you remember Kim-Il Sung's funeral?

This to me is just crazy....

Well, it won't be better, that's for sure.

And a succesor is also in sight, one who even studied in my country, germany: Kim Jong-Un. Who's said to be not better than his Father. So peacful change is far away, I'm afraid.

[Thirsty Crow]

Methinks that a Chinese revolution, or at least a critical reshuffling of the political structure of the Chinese state, would do the trick of sending shock waves through the Korean peninsula, even if we consider the scale of American military presence in the region.

Yeah, I know, the same old easy way out with "social revolution is needed" argument, but what are the other options? Imperialist occupation? No thanks, I wouldn't support it, not by a long shot. Chinese pressure without serious transformations of the state in question? That's oh so very likely considering the fact that the client regime in Northern Korea provides SEZs for Chinese capital. A spontaneous upsurge in working class militancy within NK? That would be great, though I'm not in a position to critically assess the possibility of such a development due to the lack of information coming out of the country. The same goes for the possibility of political struggle resulting in a kind of a political revolution, coming from within the NK state apparatuses.

Though, I'd point out that I think that NK regime is sliding fast into a position of a full blown client regime for imperialist interests, further undermining the position of Korean workers. I don't even think that western military intervention is likely precisely because of such developments. But that points to China as the most important factor in relation to the situation in the region.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I think that North Korea working class should decide on that.

[ComradeMan]

I think that North Korea working class should decide on that.

How are they going to do that when they are systematically brainwashed and bullied and fear not only for their own lives but their entire families' lives should they raise the slightest suspicion of less than 100% dedication to their glorious leader(s)?

[Thirsty Crow]

I think that North Korea working class should decide on that.
As if the rhetoric of "national independence", translated into "national working class independence", has any bearing upon the reality of uneven class struggle.

[Susurrus]

Kim Jong-Un. Who's said to be not better than his Father.

Actually, according to a former cook of the Kims, Jong-Un is concerned about the plight of the Korean people. Apparently he once said "We are here, playing basketball, riding horses, riding Jet Skis, having fun together. But what of the lives of the average people?"

Not hugely better, but he seems to be a little bit of an improvement.

[ComradeMan]

Actually, according to a former cook of the Kims, Jong-Un is concerned about the plight of the Korean people. Apparently he once said "We are here, playing basketball, riding horses, riding Jet Skis, having fun together. But what of the lives of the average people?"

Not hugely better, but he seems to be a little bit of an improvement.

It reminds me of the Emperor Honorius at Ravenna, who, according to Procopius of Caesarea, on hearing Roma had perished thought it referred to Roma his pet chicken.

WTF?

[Susurrus]

It reminds me of the Emperor Honorius at Ravenna, who, according to Procopius of Caesarea, on hearing Roma had perished thought it referred to Roma his pet chicken.

WTF?

Context plz.

[ComradeMan]

Context plz.

In the sense of being so divorced from reality and oblivious to the plight of the ordinary people. The Emperor Honorius was at Ravenna when the news of the sack of Rome by Alaric came.... (Ravenna was the official capital by that time).

[Thirsty Crow]

Actually, according to a former cook of the Kims, Jong-Un is concerned about the plight of the Korean people. Apparently he once said "We are here, playing basketball, riding horses, riding Jet Skis, having fun together. But what of the lives of the average people?"

Not hugely better, but he seems to be a little bit of an improvement.
More special economic zones for the betterment of the people!

[Susurrus]

In the sense of being so divorced from reality and oblivious to the plight of the ordinary people. The Emperor Honorius was at Ravenna when the news of the sack of Rome by Alaric came.... (Ravenna was the official capital by that time).

True, but given the circumstances, its amazing that he even knows that the lives of the average people are horrible.

[Comintern1919]

Actually, according to a former cook of the Kims, Jong-Un is concerned about the plight of the Korean people. Apparently he once said "We are here, playing basketball, riding horses, riding Jet Skis, having fun together. But what of the lives of the average people?"

Not hugely better, but he seems to be a little bit of an improvement.

Maybe. But even if, a little bit is by far not enough.

And I don't think Kim Jong-Il did choose him without thinking he will continue in the same way.

[Rooster]

True, but given the circumstances, its amazing that he even knows that the lives of the average people are horrible.

Why? I'm sure that the ruling clique gets daily reports on the conditions of the masses.

[Susurrus]

Anyway, back on topic, if war breaks out it will probably end with the Chinese taking over, at least temporarily.

[Nox]

I hate the beaurecratic rulers of North korea.
I hate the ridiculously over-the-top personality cult.
I hate the awful living conditions the people suffer.
I hate the 'fakeness' of the whole country, e.g. Pyongyang is their showing-off city while all other areas are practically in poverty.
I dislike their ideology, "Juche"

on the other hand...

I totally respect them for basically telling the whole western world to fuck off and mind their own business. Half of the world is shit-scared of North Korea, this gives them a huge influence.

[ComradeMan]

I totally respect them for basically telling the whole western world to fuck off and mind their own business. Half of the world is shit-scared of North Korea, this gives them a huge influence.

I think it's more to do with the former and present neighbours than themselves personally and the day that lifeline goes they will be finished.

[Susurrus]

I hate the beaurecratic rulers of the United States.
I hate the ridiculously over-the-top patriotism.
I hate the awful living conditions a lot of the people suffer.
I hate the 'fakeness' of the whole country, e.g. Wall Street is their showing-off city while most other areas are mired in poverty.
I dislike their ideology, "capitalism"

on the other hand...

I totally respect them for basically telling the whole rest of world to fuck off and mind their own business. The world is shit-scared of the United States, this gives them a huge influence.

Fixed

[Nox]

I think it's more to do with the former and present neighbours than themselves personally and the day that lifeline goes they will be finished.

Think about it, they have:

- A huge, fully brainwashed workforce
- The worlds third largest active army (as far as I know)
- Nukes
- Artillery positioned to be able to destroy Seoul and many other South Korean cities
- A maniac for a leader who would probably launch a nuke without thinking about it

In my opinion this is enough to make other nations take North Korea seriously and certainly want to avoid any confrontation at all costs.

Let's just hope when Kim Jong-Un comes into power things change for the better.

[Comintern1919]

I totally respect them for basically telling the whole western world to fuck off and mind their own business. Half of the world is shit-scared of North Korea, this gives them a huge influence.


Think about it, they have:

- A huge, fully brainwashed workforce
- The worlds third largest active army (as far as I know)
- Nukes
- Artillery positioned to be able to destroy Seoul and many other South Korean cities
- A maniac for a leader who would probably launch a nuke without thinking about it

In my opinion this is enough to make other nations take North Korea seriously and certainly want to avoid any confrontation at all costs.

Well, yes, it's impressiv, but something being powerful doesn't mean it's good, as seen with the USSR.

And I don't respect such madness. I'd respect them if they at least tried to make their people happy despide being looked down from all but few, instead of playing the "bad boy" of the current world.




Let's just hope when Kim Jong-Un comes into power things change for the better.

With better I hope you don't mean him using all those points :). Let's not hope he will try to make the game "Homefront" real :unsure:...

[Imposter Marxist]

I'm sure most of us agree that North Korea isn't more than an opressiv, entirely non-communistic dictatorship, in which the people, which we as communists want to be happy, are in fact suffering, not only due to famines, but also 'cause of no freedom whatsoever.

And let's not forget the personal cult of the most ugliest persons, Kim Il-Sung and Kim Yong-Il, who's said to be born under a Rainbow, and can change the weather, and can do many other wonderous things.

So the question is, what can we as revolutionary leftists do about such a regime? Surely you agree we must to something, else it will continue to be used as an argument against socialism. A good one most believe.

And for all those Juche-Lovers, and any other too, I recomend the documentation "A state of Mind" which is completly avaible on Youtube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nd-iSCy1og


Should we hope for another, real socialist revolution? Can we do anything to help? Or is there anyone who think a major country like China or even the USA should do something? Share your opinion!


Are you kidding me?

You're using more buzzwords than Glenn Beck. "Freedom!" "Dictatorship!"

What the hell do you think the USA could do for the DPRK? They would destroy it, and conquer its economic system completely. That would be tragic.

What could you do to help the DPRK and its people? You could start working towards destroying the Imperialists who have created the conditions that make life hard for the Korean people. Who still make life hard for the Korean people.

Honestly, I doubt you have any idea of what Juche actually is, and you're just using as some sort of psuedo-insult.

[Imposter Marxist]

Think about it, they have:

- A huge, fully brainwashed workforce
- The worlds third largest active army (as far as I know)
- Nukes
- Artillery positioned to be able to destroy Seoul and many other South Korean cities
- A maniac for a leader who would probably launch a nuke without thinking about it

In my opinion this is enough to make other nations take North Korea seriously and certainly want to avoid any confrontation at all costs.

Let's just hope when Kim Jong-Un comes into power things change for the better.

God, you sound like an anarcho-Trotskyist.

[Nox]

God, you sound like an anarcho-Trotskyist.

Why is that?

[Comintern1919]

Are you kidding me?

You're using more buzzwords than Glenn Beck. "Freedom!" "Dictatorship!"

What the hell do you think the USA could do for the DPRK? They would destroy it, and conquer its economic system completely. That would be tragic.

It was a QUESTION. I didn't said it should happen, I asked if you think it should happen.




What could you do to help the DPRK and its people? You could start working towards destroying the Imperialists who have created the conditions that make life hard for the Korean people. Who still make life hard for the Korean people.

And what use would it be for the korean people to destroy the imperialists who are long gone from North Korea, when the people are still unhappy and opressed by the North Korea Elites, especially Kim Jong-Il?


Honestly, I doubt you have any idea of what Juche actually is, and you're just using as some sort of psuedo-insult.

And I know enough about Juche. For example that there are hardly anyone who cares for it outside of North Korea, that it is used to opress the Korean people by Kim Jong-Il and his sick personal cult, that it doesn't make the people happy and equal.

And I don't know that from reading some North Korean Propaganda shit, but from observing the country. Here I really recommend the documentation "A state of Mind".

[OhYesIdid]

God, you sound like an anarcho-Trotskyist.

Kim help us all, dissent!
I beleive a second Chinese revolution could have a ripple effect. However, in order to avoid another Germany-like fiasco, a strong, unified, worker's movement must be built from now. So, anyone can give me a ride?
Just kidding, change comes from within. Besides, I don't think they'd let me and my bagpack of anarcho-communist texts through customs.

[eric922]

Kim help us all, dissent!
I beleive a second Chinese revolution could have a ripple effect. However, in order to avoid another Germany-like fiasco, a strong, unified, worker's movement must be built from now. So, anyone can give me a ride?
Just kidding, change comes from within. Besides, I don't think they'd let me and my bagpack of anarcho-communist texts through customs.
On the topic of a second Chinese revolution, I have to wonder if the chineses capitalists aren't taking a serious risk by keeping Mao and his writings and ideas available to the public while exploiting the people. I think one day they may regret not purging every memory of him they can from their country.

[Sir Comradical]

Convince the working class of the DPRK to form a reactionary movement for the restoration of capitalism. This is because complete free-market shock therapy improves all prospects for international revolution. </Cliffite>

[Sir Comradical]

Think about it, they have:

- A huge, fully brainwashed workforce
- The worlds third largest active army (as far as I know)
- Nukes
- Artillery positioned to be able to destroy Seoul and many other South Korean cities
- A maniac for a leader who would probably launch a nuke without thinking about it

In my opinion this is enough to make other nations take North Korea seriously and certainly want to avoid any confrontation at all costs.

Let's just hope when Kim Jong-Un comes into power things change for the better.

Actually that proves that their leadership is NOT crazy. Gaddafi's the maniac for cosying up to NATO and letting Libya's guard down.

[ComradeMan]

Actually that proves that their leadership is NOT crazy. Gaddafi's the maniac for cosying up to NATO and letting Libya's guard down.

Well you could look at it that way I suppose if the whole issue were merely the cynical self-preservation strategies of authoritarian dictatorships.

[RGacky3]

I don't think that there is much you can do, I don't konw what internal resistence there is, but if there is one it would be hard to give it much support.


What could you do to help the DPRK and its people? You could start working towards destroying the Imperialists who have created the conditions that make life hard for the Korean people. Who still make life hard for the Korean people.


So if people just left Norht Korea alone (does that mean stopping food aid as well)? Everything would be fine.

North Korea suffers because its under the thumb of a maniac dictator. THat silences resistance, sends people to prison camps, controls all political speach, and has created a loyal political/military class which gains the benefits while everyone else starves.

[Comintern1919]

I don't think that there is much you can do, I don't konw what internal resistence there is, but if there is one it would be hard to give it much support.

Yeah, I fear so.

As all true revolutionaries agree with, Revolution only works if the common people want change. However, the korean people are so damn brainwashed, they really believe such shit like "Born under a rainbo" etc. . And I mean believe. Not saying it but thinking differently, but real believe.

But it's not their fault. They hear that from childhood on, with no other contact/source/etc. .

[Comintern1919]

I just got a pm from Noth, but I want everyone to be able to read it and my following answer:


You call the Korean people brainwashed constantly, but where do you get your information from? From the very people you hope to overthrow. Have you been to the DPRK and seen this? I'm confused on why you have such a hostile attitude towards a whole country of people resisting the most brutal imperialist attacks.

No, I get it from North Koreans themselves. Ever watched the documentary I talked about? "A state of Mind"? If not, you should watch it. They look far from happy, and say some pretty disturbing things.

You see that in every kitchen of every family a propaganda radio is constantly, without break, running, they only can turn the volume up and down, not off.

They only have one TV-Channel, which is also constantly showing propaganda.

Also, they already get brainwashed through propaganda in the Kindergarten! And from a very young age on, have almost no Free Time, and have to train for their "Glourious" Kim Jong-Il for several hours without a break. As I'm gonna work in a Kindergarten, and Children are the most important thing in my life, that's an absolutly NO-GO for me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDso7WOOj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJYrliQrGHk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtp-70zQME

If you really find such acceptable, you are NOTHING BUT SCUM TO ME!

Children are the most important, pure and fragile thing on this World, everything against them is worth nothing but torture and death!

[Comrade Jandar]

I know this is going to sound terrible, but at the very least North Korea is a buffer against reckless imperialism by the United States in the region. Not many nations can make the U.S. think twice about their actions in the world. As far revolution in North Korea goes it must be completely organic and not influenced by outside sources. We have already seen the true face of the so called "Arab Spring"; nothing more than a poorly disguised attempt to destabilize Middle Eastern countries who have always rejected US hegemony (Syria) or at least begun to (Egypt).

[DarkPast]

I know this is going to sound terrible, but at the very least North Korea is a buffer against reckless imperialism by the United States in the region. Not many nations can make the U.S. think twice about their actions in the world. As far revolution in North Korea goes it must be completely organic and not influenced by outside sources. We have already seen the true face of the so called "Arab Spring"; nothing more than a poorly disguised attempt to destabilize Middle Eastern countries who have always rejected US hegemony (Syria) or at least begun to (Egypt).

It's good they're anti-american, yes, but it can hardly excuse the horrific human rights breaches and sheer hypocrisy of the regime. The people of North Korea suffer under Kim as much as they would suffer under a US puppet - or even more.

Sadly, I simply don't see a way out for the DPRK in the near future - they'll either stay under the Kim dynasty's heel, or they'll overthrow them and end up as an American or Chinese puppet state. Their only hope is a revolution in China or maybe Russia.

[Sir Comradical]

I don't think that there is much you can do, I don't konw what internal resistence there is, but if there is one it would be hard to give it much support.



So if people just left Norht Korea alone (does that mean stopping food aid as well)? Everything would be fine.

North Korea suffers because its under the thumb of a maniac dictator. THat silences resistance, sends people to prison camps, controls all political speach, and has created a loyal political/military class which gains the benefits while everyone else starves.

No. Eliminating the strangulating sanctions that cripple the DPRK will eliminate the need for her children to rely on patronising UN food aid. The maniacal nature of Kim's posse is irrelevant. Let's accept that they are totally batshit insane, will sanctions improve the conditions of the DPRK's working classes? Or make them worse. That is the question.

(Please refrain from accusing me of adoring Kim Jong Ill, I don't.)

[RGacky3]

I know this is going to sound terrible, but at the very least North Korea is a buffer against reckless imperialism by the United States in the region.

Buffer for who?


No. Eliminating the strangulating sanctions that cripple the DPRK will eliminate the need for her children to rely on patronising UN food aid.

Maybe if they did'nt spend all their money on the military and did'nt have a monarchial system with a king and a royal coart (the communist party higher ups) getting all the benfits of the tiny economy, they would'nt need UN food aid.

The Sacntions are UN sanctions btw, and mainly ban people exporting military weapons and luxury products to North Korea, not that there is any demand for anything other than military stuff (and a few luxury items for kim and his buddies) in North Korea.


The maniacal nature of Kim's posse is irrelevant. Let's accept that they are totally batshit insane, will sanctions improve the conditions of the DPRK's working classes? Or make them worse. That is the question.


I don't think sanctions work, but the maniacal nature of Kim's posse is totally relevant.

I'm saying that taking away sanctions won't improve the situation of the North Korean people that much at all.

[RGacky3]

It's good they're anti-american, yes,

That does'nt really matter, I could care less if Hitler was pro- or anti-American.