Who pushed USA into war?

[Totalitarian]

Found this piece of information from an Israeli newspaper.

Ha'aretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y)

"The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history."

[Ian]

Really I'm quite worried about the use of the word Zionist, especially in a situation like this, You said that; "Answer: Zionist", which you subsequentely followed up with a quote about people of Jewish decent.

I really think that this is not helping dispell the whole "anti-zionism=anti-semitism" myth, Zionist and Jew are not interchangeable words. I really hope you knew this already. I think a few people may be offended by this thread.

I'm so sick of the term Zionist being used by the extreme right to push their shit whilst not using the word Jew...

<_< :angry:

[YKTMX]

The interests of the U.S. in the middle east are obviously closely linked to the interests of Israel, to this degree Israel and hence "Zionists" were partly to blame for the war. I, like Ian Rocks however, am slightly put off by the implication that because several neo-cons are Jewish, that this in someway implicates the Jewish Race itself in the war. That kind of idea is wrong and very dangerous.

[Zombie]

they said "almost of them were jewish". nothing more, nothing less. i don&#39;t quite see how offending this may be, since most of them were, indeed Jewish. the author didn&#39;t try to imply anything negative about "Jewish culture", at least i didn&#39;t see that.
if you think there&#39;s a passage where it proves me wrong, please point it out for me. thanks.

[Discontinuity]

I think that his use of &#39;Zionist&#39; as, apparently, interchangeable with &#39;Jewish&#39; is the passage you&#39;d be directed to.

I agree with Ian, it&#39;s not very good to throw the word around if you&#39;re not actually talking about real Zionists.

Despite the great Zionist conspiracy certain Europeans claim to have stumbled upon at one point or another, Zionism does not encompass all Jews, and Jews aren&#39;t always looking to seize control of the world. Certain Jews, perhaps, yes, but no more than certain members of any other ethnicity.

Also, although I&#39;m not quite sure of this, I think Zionist can be used for non-Jews who support the idea of an independent Israeli nation and the actions deemed necessary to defend it. Most Zionists -would- be Jewish, but still, it&#39;s incorrect to use &#39;Zionist&#39; and &#39;Jewish&#39; interchangeably.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Ian [email protected] 16 2003, 08:05 PM
Really I&#39;m quite worried about the use of the word Zionist, especially in a situation like this, You said that; "Answer: Zionist", which you subsequentely followed up with a quote about people of Jewish decent.

I really think that this is not helping dispell the whole "anti-zionism=anti-semitism" myth, Zionist and Jew are not interchangeable words. I really hope you knew this already. I think a few people may be offended by this thread.

I&#39;m so sick of the term Zionist being used by the extreme right to push their shit whilst not using the word Jew...

<_< :angry:
There is no reason for anybody to be offended by this thread. Nobody is generalizing Jews as a whole, only neoconservative Jews which ARE virulently pro-Zionist, for the most part.

I concur that not all Jews are to blame for what a minority of them are doing but extreme PC-ness in an issue such as this is very counter-productive. For instance, the Trotskyist "communist" parties in ex-apartheid nations claim to represent unity between the blacks and the white "working class." I know, not all white people are to blame for the crimes of the apartheid era but Ill be damned if any fraction of the "elite minority" in a country is considered equally as opressed as the people who have been degraded in their own land for hundreds of years (and continue to be).

[BuyOurEverything]

What does zionist mean anyway? I thought it meant support of a Jewish state, Israel. If this is the case than I, along with many people, am a zionist in the sense that I support Israel&#39;s right to exist. However I&#39;m also extremely pro-Palestinian and opose Israel&#39;s current government and their occupation of Palestine and their war crimes. Before we go on about the crimes of the zionists, we should be clear what a zionist is.

[(*]

I&#39;m writing an essay on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I also got a little confused with the meaning of "zionist"

My research told me that zionism is a movement to unite jews of the diaspora (jews who were exiled from the area of palestine by babylonians...6th century I believe)

the meaning of the word has changed. Remember the UN resolution (That was repealed in &#39;91)? It equated zionism and racism.

zionism is nationalism, what is now extreme nationalism. The zionist movement of today would be pro-occupation, against Palestinian statehood etc...

[BuyOurEverything]

I guess that&#39;s the accepted meaning of the word. I&#39;ve met other people though that consider themselves zionists because they support the state of Israel but oppose the occupation and support a Palestinian state too.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 02:19 AM
I guess that&#39;s the accepted meaning of the word. I&#39;ve met other people though that consider themselves zionists because they support the state of Israel but oppose the occupation and support a Palestinian state too.
They probably know more than I do about the meaning. I&#39;d take their word for it.

[Totalitarian]

Zionists and Jews are obviously not the same, i never suggested they were.

The slogan &#39;antizionism=antisemitism&#39; is nonsense; it&#39;s like saying someone who opposes white nationalism is anti-white.

Neoconservatism is by and large a jewish movement, formed by Trotskyites such as Irving Kristol who became disillusioned with communism. Neocons are typically israel-firsters when it comes to foreign policy. There&#39;s an essay (http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_1671.shtml) on the subject by Professor Kevin MacDonald.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

The Zionist movement, like any fundamentalist movement, I feel should be fought by Communists because fundamentalist movements inevitably lead to a right-wing theocratic state. Simple as that.

[Totalitarian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 05:28 PM
The Zionist movement, like any fundamentalist movement, I feel should be fought by Communists because fundamentalist movements inevitably lead to a right-wing theocratic state. Simple as that.
That means you&#39;ll have to oppose almost all Jews, at least those in America.

Nearly two years after the Palestinian campaign of violence and terrorism began against Israelis, an overwhelming majority of American Jews say they feel closer than ever to Israel and are ready to support its efforts to defend itself, according to a national public opinion survey released today by the American Jewish Committee.
http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/PressRelease...ses.asp?did=597 (http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/PressReleases.asp?did=597)

[Urban Rubble]

Nearly two years after the Palestinian campaign of violence and terrorism began against Israelis, an overwhelming majority of American Jews say they feel closer than ever to Israel and are ready to support its efforts to defend itself, according to a national public opinion survey released today by the American Jewish Committee.

I think it&#39;s fairly obvious that the kind of terrorism employed by Hammas and other Palestenians is going to push people away from their cause rather than draw sympathy. That is one of the reasons a person that is for the formation of a Palestenian state should oppose it. It only serves to alienate the few Zionists that actually supported a Plaestenian state.

Did anyone read the article ? Anyone want to comment on that ? I didn&#39;t really like it.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by Ian [email protected] 16 2003, 12:05 PM
Really I&#39;m quite worried about the use of the word Zionist, especially in a situation like this, You said that; "Answer: Zionist", which you subsequentely followed up with a quote about people of Jewish decent.

I really think that this is not helping dispell the whole "anti-zionism=anti-semitism" myth, Zionist and Jew are not interchangeable words. I really hope you knew this already. I think a few people may be offended by this thread.

I&#39;m so sick of the term Zionist being used by the extreme right to push their shit whilst not using the word Jew...

<_< :angry:
Zionism is very important thing to adress.

As for anti-semetism, alot of people don&#39;t even realise that palestinians are semites aswell, so if your pro-palestinian, how can you be anti-semetic?

[BuyOurEverything]

I&#39;ve always found that strange that anti-semitism just means anti-jew and nobody every commented on it before.

[*~Silver-Back~*]

See what ppl fail to see is that the real term Anti-Semitism is actually being anti-semetic or against those who are culturally and speak a semetic language such as Hebrew and Arabic and some other small dialects. What i find quite comical is that Anti-Semtism has reached a point that it just means Anti-jew even during times of name calling when Arab politicians or Muslim politicians such as Dr.Mohamed Matahatir said that thing about Jews ruling the world by proxy....he was called Anti-semetic in his remarks by teh world....so this makes no sense at all because as a Muslim by default you are a Semetic person.

[Totalitarian]

And what&#39;s more, the jews are only partially semitic.

[elijahcraig]

I&#39;m part jewish, and didn&#39;t find anything offensive about this thread.

I am an Anti-Zionist, it is the new Nazism as far as I am concerned.

And I am almost always disgusted with the Jewish race and their conservative views (and a majority are conservative). Luckily, today more jewish youth are becoming not so "national god" oriented, and moving away from the nonsense of "jewish state".

[Edelweiss]

Don&#39;t let yourself be fooled by this Totalitarian idiot. He has shown to be an anti-emite before, and now is again trying to spread his conpiracy theories about Jewsish world domination in a more or less subtle way. After statements like "Neoconservatism is by and large a jewish movement, formed by Trotskyites such as Irving Kristol who became disillusioned with communism" I think no serious leftist can take this man seriuos.
And people, stop this semantic bullshit about Arabs beeing semites aswell, it&#39;s true, but really doen&#39;t change the meaning of the word at all. Anti-semtism already since the end of the 19th century is a term for hatred/aversion against Jews, and the belief in anti-semitic clishees like "Jews control the media", Jews control communism", "Jews control capitalism", "Jews control Che-Lives" (something which actually was stated by some members :D ) etc, etc.
Furthermore Jews are not a "race", that&#39;s Nazi bullshit.
I suggest Totalitarian again to discuss his aversion against Jew at ***************, but not here.

[elijahcraig]

It is true what he says about the founders of Zionism, it was mainly communists (trotskyists) turned nationalists.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 03:56 AM
It is true what he says about the founders of Zionism, it was mainly communists (trotskyists) turned nationalists.
Totalitarian was speaking about Neoconservatism, noz about Zionism.
Zionism is a movement which is much older than the communist movement BTW.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by Malte+Oct 22 2003, 02:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Malte @ Oct 22 2003, 02:01 AM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 03:56 AM
It is true what he says about the founders of Zionism, it was mainly communists (trotskyists) turned nationalists.
Totalitarian was speaking about Neoconservatism, noz about Zionism.
Zionism is a movement which is much older than the communist movement BTW. [/b]
This is untrue, I believe. As far as I know, the Zionist movement only really started with Herzl; the release date for his most famous document outlining Zionism was 1896 if I recall correctly.

So Marxism would predate Zionism by about fifty years if my calculations are correct.