America vs. Norway: Tough on Crime vs. Tough on Causes of Crime

[RichardAWilson]

20 percent of Norwegian prisoners return to jail within two years of their release, a very low recidivism rate. (For comparison,more than 60 percent of released prisoners in America were arrested again within three years, while 51.8 percent returned to prison. The U.S. rate of incarceration also dwarfs Norway's.)




A criminal may only be sentenced to 21 years before the state must evaluate him or her for release. "Life without parole" is not an option.


It would seem that a nation with prisons tailored to rehabilitate and offer social-justice does better than a Dog-Eat-Dog Nation (I.e. America).

[eric922]

Yeah. I think that if we focused the money we spent on law enforcement and incarceration on rehabilitation and social programs we could get rid of a lot of crime here since most crime has social causes.

[miltonwasfried...man]

The focus needs to be placed on educating the youth and thusly opening doors for them rather than forcing them into a life of crime. Unfortunately there is money to be made incarcerating large numbers of poor people, whereas educating them is a "burden".

[LegendZ]

Yeah. I think that if we focused the money we spent on law enforcement and incarceration on rehabilitation and social programs we could get rid of a lot of crime here since most crime has social causes.Won't happen. Even the jails and court system is corrupt.

[Judicator]

That might be true, but to do a fair comparison you have to compare the Norweigan prison population with a similar subsample of the US prison population. Otherwise you're just capturing differences in rehabilitation likelihood by crime type, rehabilitation likelihood by age/race/income, and so on.

[RichardAWilson]

I’m basing the summarization on Caucasians (even though African American crime can be attributed to social and historical causes) and violent crime (I.e. Murder, Rape, Theft).

Norway has a lower crime rate than even France. The same holds true of Sweden and Finland, which adhere to the Scandinavian Social-Market Model. However, America's crime rate is much higher than even the French rate. The U.S. has the highest incidence of violent crime in the Western World. America is, of course, followed by Australia and Britain.



The intentional homicide rate in Scandinavia averages one per hundred thousand. In the United States, the intentional homicide rate averages over five per hundred thousand.




The 2009 Rape Rate for Norway was 19.8 per hundred thousand, which is much higher than the rate for Denmark and Finland. However, in America, the rate was 28.6 per hundred thousand.


As for Denmark, it maintains much lower crime rates than America and even benefits from a lower rate of drug abuse. Denmark shows that America's "War on Drugs" has been counterproductive.



In the United States, there are over seven assaults committed per thousand people.

In Norway, there are a little over three assaults committed per thousand people.

In Demark, the figure falls to below two.


For Comparison (Child Poverty Rate By Country)

The Anglo-Saxon Countries

America: 22.4%
Britain: 19.8%
Canada: 15.5%
Australia: 12.6%

The Scandinavian Social Countries

Denmark: 5.1%
Finland: 4.3%
Norway: 3.9%
Sweden: 2.6%

[Judicator]

Norway has a lower crime rate than even France. The same holds true of Sweden and Finland, which adhere to the Scandinavian Social-Market Model. However, America's crime rate is much higher than even the French rate. The U.S. has the highest incidence of violent crime in the Western World. America is, of course, followed by Australia and Britain.

As you've pointed out in your exampe below, the cause can easily be demographic factors, rather than success or failure of rehab programs. Perhaps rehab programs do nothing (except use money) and Norway succeeds in spite of this, because of all of the other factors it has going for it.

[RichardAWilson]

Which part of the statistics are reflecting Caucasian Crime Rates did you not understand?

White crime is higher in America than in Norway!

[RGacky3]

That might be true, but to do a fair comparison you have to compare the Norweigan prison population with a similar subsample of the US prison population. Otherwise you're just capturing differences in rehabilitation likelihood by crime type, rehabilitation likelihood by age/race/income, and so on.


Yeah, the prison population in Norway is different, because Norway does'nt pack poor people in to ghettos and leave them there with nothing, i.e. they are tough on the causes of crime.

[RGacky3]

wgHdGr4aQoU

[ComradeMan]

...

The punishment is that someone has their freedom and personal liberty removed, not that they should be treated like an animal.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The punishment is that someone has their freedom and personal liberty removed, not that they should be treated like an animal.

It's ridiculous when those U.S. people suddenly turn reactionary defenders of punishment as deterrence just because a prison isn't a total shithole. "Oh this is absurd!" What's wrong with prisoners keeping occupied with something at least relatively productive while they are incarcerated? Maybe some of them will pick up the music and have learned something and come out better.

Retributive justice is contemptible; and if terrible prison conditions led to less crime (preposterous), then the U.S. wouldn't have any crime.

[Demogorgon]

Ultimately there is a choice between satisfying an urge to retribution and having a safer and lower crime society. It is interesting that those who most piously protest against crime do not choose the latter. Prison ought to be about removing from society, for a period of time, those whose behaviour is unacceptable and rehabilitating them so that they can rejoin society. That means making life in prison as much like life outside prison as possible. The key difference of course being that you are stuck where you are. That is a pretty big punishment in itself.

You would naturally expect Norway to have a lower crime rate than the US anyway given that there is less inequality and (this will be controversial I know) much fewer firearms, and prison may not immediately impact on that anyway as someone who has not yet been sent to jail isn't going to be influenced by what jail is like. But the real magic of the system is the low recidivism, this shows that the Norwegian system works pretty well.

I would go further in fact and fully integrate prisoners into the working environment. Naturally in a prison some prisoners are going to have to be employed in the running of the prison itself, though prisons like this can mitigate it by having prisoners doing their own cooking and laundry, but others can get work in normal employment. There are plenty of jobs that can be done from inside prisons, particularly when prisons are located in convenient locations.

Right now when prisoners are given outside work in many places, it is practically slave labour as they are hardly paid for it. But I would have them fully Unionised and paid the same as everyone else. This I think could actually be sold relatively easily to the general public as you could take a levy for them to pay towards the cost of running the prison as well as for a victims of crime fund. This would mean prisoners are getting meaningful work, getting rehabilitated and making recompense for what they have done.

[Ingraham Effingham]

It's tough when Americans scream for wild-west justice all the time. Indifference at bin Laden's execution, yet indignation at the verdict of the Casey Anthony trial.

It's always a quick fix: fight the symptoms, not the disease.

A similar scenario is when people have medical complaint (example: acid reflux) and go to the doctor. If the doctor doesnt give them the newest meds to kill the pain, and instead gives them lifestyle or diet advice to ease the underlying issue, he gets a bad rap from the patient AND the medical community.

Americans (capitalists?) seem to be driven by the need for immediate satisfaction in so many walks of life.

Capitalism seems to breed existential insecurity, as if everyone's gonna die tomorrow. The mindset is: make your points and judgments fast, 'fix' the world ASAP, because you are as disposable as a plastic wrapper.

I wish people would get past that "life is harsh" mentality.

[eric922]

I personally hate our prison system. It needs massive reform. The fact that we treat people like animals should be a crime in and of itself. As has been pointed out it doesn't cut down on crime, in fact in a lot of cases it makes things worse.

I'm also willing to bet you don't have to join a gang in a Norwegian prison just to survive. That is another huge problem with our system you go in there and to survive you join a gang that is often racially motivated so that when you come out not only are you more likely to commit a crime you are often racist.

[eyedrop]

My general response to people that think prison is a vacation is just: go there yourself if its so cozy, it's enough of a punishment to get your freedom taken away.

The point of prisons should be to get non-criminals out of criminals.

[Judicator]

Which part of the statistics are reflecting Caucasian Crime Rates did you not understand?

White crime is higher in America than in Norway!

And of course race is the only relevant attribute when looking at crime rates

[IcarusAngel]

Interestingly, I have been following the German Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty (http://www.initiative-gegen-die-todesstrafe.de/) website. One of the cases they talk about is Steven Woods, who is in his late 20s/early 30s, and on Texas death row. He had a troubled youth and killed two people, although he maintains that he didn't actually slay the victims, somebody else did (and the weapons belonged to that person) and he is the one who got the death penalty. He likes punk rock, philosophy, freedom, and says he's an anarchist.

He has written to several anti-death penalty organizations and his outlines (if true) of his treatment of the treatment of other prisoners seem pretty brutal. He seems to be pretty articulate and worth reading. His planned execution is September 13th, of this year. He has been in solitary confinement for over 10 years, but he doesn't want to die.

I have included one of his essays and some links below.



Hello.


My name is Steven Woods, and I am currently an inmate awaiting lethal
injection in the Alan B. Polunsky Unit in Livingston, Texas.

I am writing this as a plea for help, for myself and the 400 plus inmates
living on death row. I am writing this to ask that you get involved, to
help make our conditions more liveable and humane. To help us gain a
little comfort as we sit out what little remains of our lives.

I am aware that there are numerous people and organizations world-wide
that expend an immense amount of energy trying to abolish the death
penalty. While I admire and respect their efforts, I am also aware that
there are few who stop and look at how we are forced to live. So much
effort is put on saving our lives, that this is often overlooked.

This is no fault of the people, it is the fault of myself and all the 400
plus inmates who share my fate. We just lie down and accept the way we are
treated. If were not willing to stand up for ourselves, why should anyone
else?

It is time for this to change.

Death row, in Texas, is housed in a maximum security super segregation
facility. A facility designed to hold prisoners indefinitely in a solitary
confinement environment. We are locked down for 23 hours a day, in a
single man 6x9 foot steel and concrete cell. We are afforded extremely
limited privileges, and only one hour a day to get out of our cells for
recreation. Every time we leave our cells we are strip searched, placed in
hand restraints and walked by 2 guards holding each arm.
being walked.

If you were to ask the TDCJ administration why it is set up like this,
they would tell you that we are security risks. This is absurd. Granted,
it is true that we were convicted of some very heinous crimes, I would
like to point out that there are TWO penalties for capital murder; death,
or li fe in prison. Those who are convicted and are afforded a life
sentence (my co-defendant, for example) are in most cases convicted of the
exact crimes we were. They live out their lives in general population as a
reward for their testimony against us, the fact that they plead guilty, or
because the jury decided to show compassion (as in the case of the
terrorist sniper Lee Malvo).

Let me ask you this. Who is more likely to be a danger to others; an
inmate condemned to die, who has a chance to save his life if he can prove
that he is not a danger to society, or the prisoner who will serve out a
life sentence, and has nothing to lose?

The majority of people who are sent to a TDCJ prison, those who did not
receive the death penalty and behave themselves, are placed into the
general population unit. They have a lot more freedom than we do. They receive hot meals at a steam table, not in a cell. They get to go
to church, and parti cipate in educational programs. They are allowed to
interact with other prisoners, and can walk around freely, to the dayrooms
and recreation yards, and around the section they live on. They are
allowed to receive contact visits, to touch and hold their family and
loved ones. These convicts consist of thieves, violent offenders, rapists,
capital murderers and child molesters. These inmates often act violently
toward each other and the guards, and sometimes try (and succeed) to
escape. But, of course, they are not security risks. Not according to
TDCJ.

We, on death row, are deprived of so many of the things that make a human
being stable, and sane. The TDCJ officers dont care about us, dont like
us, and act against us whenever and however they can. They are constantly
degrading us calling us names, trying to take what little dignity that
remains. They often deny us our sleep, food, shower, and recreation. They
even get violent and strike at us when they think they can get away with
it. They write us disciplinary cases for petty things, or sometimes for
something they made up. They even ignore us when we need medical
attention. Then they laugh and joke about it. After all, we are less than
human, and it is their god given right to oppress us.

When it comes to the meals on death row, policy dictates 3 warm meals a
day, served in our cells, of the same quality and quantity that the guards
receive. We are allotted 2400 calories a day, at least in theory. In
reality, the food is served cold, more often than not, and on broken and
dirty food trays. The guards who serve the meals dont wear gloves or even
wash their hands. Usually, the food is not even fully cooked, and we are
never given as much as we are supposed to have. This may seem trivial, but
to us it is very important to remain healthy.

The one hour a day that we are allowed to leave our cells for recreation
is sp ent in the dayroom, or outside. The dayroom is a cage 18x24 feet. We
mostly spend this time just walking around in circles, because we are not
allowed to take anything out of our cell. If we do, we get written up for
trafficking and trading. Outside, the only differences are that it is a
concrete room with iron bars for a roof.

We are not allowed any contact with the other inmates, except the
conversations we can have with those in cells close to us by shouting through the walls. We do not get any arts & craft programs, no television, and no work programs. The only things we have to break the monotony of solitary confinement are a radio, books we receive from the outside world, colored pencils, and cheap water colors. We are denied the basic human contact that is essential to keeping a healthy state of mind. But, legally, this is not cruel and unusual punishment.

Visitation is one of our bigger problems. We get 2 hours a week, or
certain extended special vis its which are two 4hour visits, if the person
visits from over 300 miles, out of state or overseas. Only those on our visitation list may visit, and they have to be approved by TDCJ. We are only allowed 10 people on that list, and we can only change it every 6 months. This means, in average, we will be able to change it or add people 10 times, as the average life expectancy on death row is 5 years. These visits are the most cruel, inhumane punishment. Through a solid, thick sheet of glass, we can see our loved ones. To talk to them, we have to use telephones that
distort their voices. Most of us will die without ever being able to
touch, hug, hold our families and friends. Without ever being able to hear
the true sound of their voices.

Under the Death Row Plan, as outlined in the Supreme Court case Ruiz vs.
Estelle, we were supposed to be allowed more privileges- namely a work
program, group/ extended recreation, televisions, and in-cell arts and
cra ft programs. Unfortunately, these privileges have been suspended
indefinitely, due to an escape attempt (which failed- and when
investigated was determined to be the fault of the officers due to
negligence) over 5 years ago. 5 years ago, we did have these privileges
(except contact visits). So what happened, and why cant we have them back?
TDCJ is punishing all of us for the mistake made by 7 inmates and the
officers that neglected their duty. It is not our fault they dont train
their guards properly.

We cannot change anything from the inside, by ourselves. We can only stand
up for ourselves and not accept the way we are treated. I am taking this
first step in writing to you, and by protesting our conditions by not
cooperating with TDCJ officers and officials. We are asking for your
support, to put forth as much or as little effort as you can. We need you
to fight with us, by calling and writing the government and the
administration and telling them that you will not accept the way death row
is being run. To protest, if you can, or just spread the word of how we
are treated and encouraging others to get involved.

It is going to be a long hard road we walk down. It will require an
extreme amount of energy. It is our hope that you are willing to walk it
with us.

To protest our conditions, please phone or write to the following people
and tell them you will not stand for the current situation. We would
appreciate your help.

1) Rep. Terri Hodge, P. O. Box 13084 Austin, Texas 78711.

2) A letter to Chairman and Members of the Texas Board of Criminal
Justice, P. O. Box 13084, Austin, Texas 78711.

3) A letter to Warden Chuck Biscoe, Polunsky Unit, 3872 FM 350 S.,
Livingston, TX 77351.

If youd like to get involved and like more, in-depth information, have
comments, questions, advice or encouraging words, feel free to write to:

Steven Woods # 999427

TDCJ Polunsky Unit

12002 SFM 350

Livingston, Texas 77351

USA


Howdy! Hey thanks for tankin´ a bit of time to check out this little ol´missive.
Maybe you can help me out. I´m 29 year old punk rocker sittin´here in solitary, in the bowels of a Texas penal colony (Texas Death Row) waitin´ for the state to kill me.
Bein´locked down in this hole, alone, hundreds of miles away from everyone I know and seperated from them by concertina wire, guard pickets and the stigma of my confinement and condition is the hardest thing I´ve ever had to face. I do consider myself a strong person and I´m cetainly used to adversity – I´ve has a life full of it; but the weight of my chains are slowly dragging me down. With the whole world callin´ me a monster, sometimes it´s hard for me to remember that I´m not. So I´m hoping to find someone to help lift me above these walls... and help me keep a hold on y humanity. I´m looking to hang out, ya know, share some good conversation and some friendship while I try struggle through the rest of the time I´ve got there.
As far as kind of person I´m lookin´to befriend, the only thing I ask is that ya keep it real ... I´´m not trying to play games. I really don´t have the time for that sort of thing. I´m open to correspond with anyone, from all walks of life. I think diversity in a friendship or a relationship builds the strongest bonds. Personally, my interests lie in music, literature and activism. I dig philosophy. I was basically just into living life, and my life revolved around one central theme: freedom. The freedom to act, to think, and to choose for one´s self. I spent the bulk of my adult life as the embodiment of this ideal, and the experiences I´ve had and things I´ve learned through it have given me a lot of share with you. And I´m really looking forward to that, should you choose to write me. If not, well, thats´s cool too.
Thanks for checking me out.

Steven Woods # 999427
Polunsky Unit
3872 FM 350 South
Livingston, TX 77351
USA


http://www.deathrow-usa.us/Texaswoods.html


http://www.initiative-gegen-die-todesstrafe.de/en/brieffreunde/texas/steven-woods.html


Web page:


http://www.savesteven.info/

[RichardAWilson]

Shows how regressive we are compared with the Canadians and Europeans.

[Judicator]

Which part of the statistics are reflecting Caucasian Crime Rates did you not understand?

White crime is higher in America than in Norway!

The part about why you think all white populations everywhere should have the same crime rate.

[RGacky3]

Then why did you mention race was a factor?

[Judicator]

Then why did you mention race was a factor?

Because it's a factor. Why did you believe it must therefore be the only factor?

[RGacky3]

Its not a factor unless, like in the US, you have a terrible history of racism and racial exclusion.

Yeah there are other factors, like the fact that Norway not only has a better penal system, but also a better economic and social system.

[RichardAWilson]

Why the hell do you think white crime rates are lower in Norway?

Maybe it's because all Norwegians are Christian Calvinists. LMFAO! WTF?

[Judicator]

Its not a factor unless, like in the US, you have a terrible history of racism and racial exclusion.

Yeah there are other factors, like the fact that Norway not only has a better penal system, but also a better economic and social system.

Perhaps the other systems and demographic factors are sufficiently good that the penal system does nothing on the margin, and Norway could implement the US penal system to no ill effect. You can't say either way until you control for all major factors which would impact crime statistics.

[PhoenixAsh]

The thing is...the US prison system is an industry set out to make money for corporations (corporations are not society btw...so yes...that costs taxt dollars) by providing cheap labour pools. Thats just the government owned and operated jails....an increasing proportion of the countries jail are privately owned and its estimated that this number of privately owned prisons will triple in the next 10 years.

Prison labour produces anything from military gear to airplane parts to house appliances and prisoners work for a pittance often under a dollar per hour. This is an increadibly effective system for these corporations. They have low wage costs, no strike dangers, no holidays to worry about and an unlimited supply of workers.

There is no interest at all in minimising the amount of prisoners and there sure as hell is no interest in getting them paroled or freed.

[RGacky3]

Perhaps the other systems and demographic factors are sufficiently good that the penal system does nothing on the margin, and Norway could implement the US penal system to no ill effect. You can't say either way until you control for all major factors which would impact crime statistics.

Well ... what are the factors.

[Judicator]

Well ... what are the factors.


Population density and degree of urbanization.
Variations in composition of the population, particularly youth concentration.
Stability of the population with respect to residents’ mobility, commuting patterns, and transient factors.
Modes of transportation and highway system.
Economic conditions, including median income, poverty level, and job availability.
Cultural factors and educational, recreational, and religious characteristics.
Family conditions with respect to divorce and family cohesiveness.
Climate.
Effective strength of law enforcement agencies.
Administrative and investigative emphases of law enforcement.
Policies of other components of the criminal justice system (i.e., prosecutorial, judicial, correctional, and probational).
Citizens’ attitudes toward crime.
Crime reporting practices of the citizenry.


To name a few

[RGacky3]

Economic conditions, including median income, poverty level, and job availability.


Yes, Social democracy works too-



Cultural factors and educational, recreational, and religious characteristics.


Public education, strong unions that give good time off, and so on also work.



Family conditions with respect to divorce and family cohesiveness.


very high divorce rate in Norway.

As for all those other factors, yes they play a role, but a HUGE role is the penal system, and we can show over and over again, in similar countries, which system works.

the US is not a third world country (yet), comparing the US and Norway is not unfair (looking proportionately).

[Judicator]

As for all those other factors, yes they play a role, but a HUGE role is the penal system, and we can show over and over again, in similar countries, which system works.

the US is not a third world country (yet), comparing the US and Norway is not unfair (looking proportionately).

Singapore incarcerates 3x as many people per capita as Norway, and has lower murder rates.

[Kamos]

Singapore incarcerates 3x as many people per capita as Norway, and has lower murder rates.

Well, if you incarcerate every single person in your country and isolate them, you can achieve the perfect murder rate (zero). Your point is?

[Judicator]

Well, if you incarcerate every single person in your country and isolate them, you can achieve the perfect murder rate (zero). Your point is?

Why even go to such an extreme? The point was simply that you can incarcerate a few more people and have significantly less crime.

[RevLeft By Birth]

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_632898.html
Venezuela Prison population at an all time High (on a PER CAPITA basis)

Any comment on this? Venezuela has tried to embrace a model of rehabilitation and fighting the causes of crime but the worst sort of crimes are increasing/

I don't want to bias people's responses but I think this reflects on Hugo Chavez's failure to completely embrace socialism, the reactionaries are doing everything they can to undermine him which is feeding the murder and kidnapping increase Venezuela is experiencing. Unfortunately, the electorate is putting pressure on him to "fight crime" which results in this increasing prison population.

[RGacky3]

I think it has to do more with historical problems, generally as poverty goes down, crime will slowly drop.

It could also be that police enforcement has gone up.


Why even go to such an extreme? The point was simply that you can incarcerate a few more people and have significantly less crime.

Singapore has higher crime rates ... Singapore also inprisons conciensus objectors, hell they put an entire religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) in prison for being consciensus objectors, they also inprison a ton of political prisoners and restrict freedom of speach.

So yeah, if we have a repressive government we can probably have less murders too, and more in prison.

[Judicator]

Singapore has higher crime rates ... Singapore also inprisons conciensus objectors, hell they put an entire religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) in prison for being consciensus objectors, they also inprison a ton of political prisoners and restrict freedom of speach.

So yeah, if we have a repressive government we can probably have less murders too, and more in prison.

So which one is it that accounts for (more of) the crime reduction, curtailment of free speech or incarceration rates?

[L.A.P.]

It's ridiculous when those U.S. people suddenly turn reactionary defenders of punishment as deterrence just because a prison isn't a total shithole. "Oh this is absurd!" What's wrong with prisoners keeping occupied with something at least relatively productive while they are incarcerated? Maybe some of them will pick up the music and have learned something and come out better.

But that's the thing, most Americans do not want to improve the criminal but make their lives horrible. The American idea of justice is damnation, not redemption. It's become part of American culture's 'values'.

[RGacky3]

So which one is it that accounts for (more of) the crime reduction, curtailment of free speech or incarceration rates?

It could be many things that accounts for it, one could be a repressive state.

But what I am saying is high incarceratoin rates is due to criminalizing free speach and inprisoning an entire religion and so on. Thats not being tough on crime its being tough on dissent.

[Demogorgon]

So which one is it that accounts for (more of) the crime reduction, curtailment of free speech or incarceration rates?
A major source of Singapore's low crime rate is the Government omitting a large number of crimes from its figures that other Government's include when they measure crime. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Of course, we could also look a little at Singapore's actual incarceration rate. It is pretty high of course. Much higher than other relatively low crime countries. But it is far lower than America and Russia (number one and number two in the incarceration per capita stakes). If higher incarceration means lower crime, then America and Russia must be leading the field in crime free societies, mustn't they? Leaving poor old Singapore that barely incarcerates half as many per capita in the dust?

We also need to consider recidivism when we look at crime rate. Someone who has yet to be incarcerated is unlikely to be terribly influenced by what goes on once you are inside prison. The entry to crime is unlikely to be caused by the criminal justice system in other words. So presuming Singapore does at least have a fairly low level of people getting into crime in the first place, there are also factors besides prison helping (and it does have some BTW, the Government has been careful to avoid ghettos forming for instance and poorer groups aren't kept apart from the rest of society so much, that is definitely going to have some degree of benefit). Once we start looking at those who have offended however, we can start to see how useful prison is by looking at the level of reoffending once released. At first glance Signapore does quite well on 2008 levels having a pretty low reoffending rate. Not as low as Norway, but pretty good. Then of course you look a bit more closely and you find that the government has been playing with the figures by removing drug addicts from the statistics. If you go back ten years when there was less of that going on, the recidivism rate was much the same as it is in the United States. Pretty high in other words.

In all, it is very difficult to include that the Singapore justice system is much use at dealing with crime. The Singapore Government is very good at massaging Statistics, no denying that, and the lack of freedom of speech makes it difficult for them to be caught out on that domestically, however in terms of actually dealing with crime-not so much. It has had some success in designing the city itself in such a way as to prevent ghettos from forming as I said, but once crime is happening it is not very effective. Finally of course your argument that it shows that high incarceration lowers crime falls apart as soon as you realise that it is still jailing far fewer people than the United States and Russia. Plus of course the very premise of this thread was that Norway is a good example for emulation. It has a crime rate lower than Singapore, even if you accept the Singapore Government's questionable statistics and a lower recidivism rate, against even the laughable one that excludes drug users, so why do you try so hard to ignore that system? Could it possibly be that you simply like the thought of harsh "justice" regardless of its effects?

[Frohicky1]

America is exceptional, but not unique, in that it will punish mercilessly for imaginary crimes like drug use, but won't punish bankers for destroying lives for personal enjoyment.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[Judicator]

A major source of Singapore's low crime rate is the Government omitting a large number of crimes from its figures that other Government's include when they measure crime. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Of course, we could also look a little at Singapore's actual incarceration rate. It is pretty high of course. Much higher than other relatively low crime countries. But it is far lower than America and Russia (number one and number two in the incarceration per capita stakes). If higher incarceration means lower crime, then America and Russia must be leading the field in crime free societies, mustn't they? Leaving poor old Singapore that barely incarcerates half as many per capita in the dust?

We also need to consider recidivism when we look at crime rate. Someone who has yet to be incarcerated is unlikely to be terribly influenced by what goes on once you are inside prison. The entry to crime is unlikely to be caused by the criminal justice system in other words. So presuming Singapore does at least have a fairly low level of people getting into crime in the first place, there are also factors besides prison helping (and it does have some BTW, the Government has been careful to avoid ghettos forming for instance and poorer groups aren't kept apart from the rest of society so much, that is definitely going to have some degree of benefit). Once we start looking at those who have offended however, we can start to see how useful prison is by looking at the level of reoffending once released. At first glance Signapore does quite well on 2008 levels having a pretty low reoffending rate. Not as low as Norway, but pretty good. Then of course you look a bit more closely and you find that the government has been playing with the figures by removing drug addicts from the statistics. If you go back ten years when there was less of that going on, the recidivism rate was much the same as it is in the United States. Pretty high in other words.

In all, it is very difficult to include that the Singapore justice system is much use at dealing with crime. The Singapore Government is very good at massaging Statistics, no denying that, and the lack of freedom of speech makes it difficult for them to be caught out on that domestically, however in terms of actually dealing with crime-not so much. It has had some success in designing the city itself in such a way as to prevent ghettos from forming as I said, but once crime is happening it is not very effective. Finally of course your argument that it shows that high incarceration lowers crime falls apart as soon as you realise that it is still jailing far fewer people than the United States and Russia. Plus of course the very premise of this thread was that Norway is a good example for emulation. It has a crime rate lower than Singapore, even if you accept the Singapore Government's questionable statistics and a lower recidivism rate, against even the laughable one that excludes drug users, so why do you try so hard to ignore that system? Could it possibly be that you simply like the thought of harsh "justice" regardless of its effects?

Fair points about statistics. I bring up Singapore to discourage lazy analysis like "look at Country A vs. Country B, and how Country A has more of factor X, and also lower crime." [Insert semi-plausible story], therefore factor X causes lower crime.

Higher incarceration rates may mean lower crime, all else equal. Theoretically, you'd have to look at two countries that are identical in every relevant respect, except incarceration rates. Alternatively, you would have to randomly select one group of countries and force them to have a high incarceration rate, and compare this to a control group. Neither of this is feasible in practice, so you must try to control as much as possible for differences across countries. The OP has done none of this. You've illustrated the error in simple comparisons (Singapore vs. Norway or US vs. Norway)

Another point that you must look at with incarceration rates is that by incarcerating criminals ends whatever crime spree they would have continued otherwise, and by extending sentences you may delay recidivism.

Also recall one of the points was that Singapore has a lower MURDER rate than Norway. So in ranking incarceration rates you have US-Singapore-Norway, but in murder rates you have US-Norway-Singapore. Not a clean linear relationship. Even if it were, clean linear relationships do not indicate causality:

http://seanbonner.com/blog/archives/001857.php

Of course somewhat fake, but insert any X variable that has decreased since the 1700s and you get the idea.

EDIT: If the image isn't working just google "pirates global temperature"