Capitalism failing miserably in South Africa

[IronFist_of_proletarians]

greetings comrades, i am a south african citizen, its been ten years since we overthrew the miserable right wing apartheid regime. Ten years of liberation later, and all we have done is create a one party oligarchy, a government that is so corrupt and filthy with greed, the gap between rich and poor is so huge, its frankly disgusting,

I am a white south african male, my parents fought for the liberation of this country even though the former government gave special privileges to whites, my parents fought for freedom and equality for all South Africans. Its probably where i get my liberal leftist leanings from.

The government we have in place right now isn't even delivering on basic needs, such as housing and sanitation, the majority of the country lives in squatter camps, it seems that the ruling party(african national congress), is content in leaving its citizens in poverty, and making false promises in order to maintain power. We have democracy yes,the majority of the population is so poor, uneducated and desperate for help, the ruling party keeps them voting because they always promise certain service deliveries before every election, and the majority of this country gets duped again and again.

Most socialists in this country are racist to whites, and see us as oppressors, can't really blame them for that mentality, because of the years of segregation, but the situation in this country is getting so desperate, that we are going to have to unite, whites and blacks live in two different worlds, separate existences, its like we still living in apartheid, though i visit the townships often. I heard a statistic that 60 percent of this country's money is with 10 percent of the population, the oligarchy's are close knit, and remain small, they want to remain in power and not share the wealth, they just want to exploit, exploit the people they so proudly liberated 10 years ago, its like they set them free then cut off their legs.

Proudly South African

[The_Outernationalist]

South Africa had a good chance at succeeding early on. the South African Communist Party had many decent leaders (Joe Slovo, Chris Hani, etc.) but then they entered an alliance with the ANC and it all went to hell, along with their revolutionary credibility.


Most socialists in this country are racist to whites, and see us as oppressors

Real leftists are never racist, that's first off.

Secondly, I'd disagree with the notion that the oligarchy is racist towards whites, since most of the top Communist party brass are white (Jeremy Cronin comes to mind, and Joe Slovo was once General Secretary), and they are part of the tripartite alliance, but the race baiting is being played out by the ANC to futher facilitate tension and to prevent a united working class movement against the minority which holds all the country's wealth.

sad to say, the SACP is complicit in abetting capitalism. some revolutionary party they turned out to be, only paying lip service to Marxism.

[jake williams]

Ten years of liberation later, and all we have done is create a one party oligarchy, a government that is so corrupt and filthy with greed, the gap between rich and poor is so huge, its frankly disgusting
I don't think that's exactly true, if you're talking about the whole post-apartheid era. Political organizations are legal, legal barriers to education have been abolished, legal barriers to residency have been abolished. The modern South African state as a much more progressive foreign policy stance than did the apartheid state. These changes do very little to address the major grievances of everyday life, and they are fairly limited. But they are significant, and they are popular victories.


The government we have in place right now isn't even delivering on basic needs, such as housing and sanitation, the majority of the country lives in squatter camps, it seems that the ruling party(african national congress), is content in leaving its citizens in poverty, and making false promises in order to maintain power.
I think this is true of parts of the ANC, including a lot of the top leadership, but not the whole party. The party has very sharp internal struggles, and a mass membership which is mostly harmed by the state's incapacity to deliver basic services. The notion that the party serves the whole black bourgeoisie is clearly false when one looks at the growing support of black businesspeople for the DA.


We have democracy yes,the majority of the population is so poor, uneducated and desperate for help, the ruling party keeps them voting because they always promise certain service deliveries before every election, and the majority of this country gets duped again and again.
This is the standard white theory for black voting patterns and I think it's quite limited. Poor black people vote for the ANC because they don't really have better options, unfortunately. What else are you suggesting they do? Many people do believe that in time the ANC will eventually deliver on their promises, which in some sense I think is true, though not necessarily in the obvious ways.


Most socialists in this country are racist to whites, and see us as oppressors, can't really blame them for that mentality, because of the years of segregation
Yes and no. There are right-wing populists, Malema comes to mind, who are cynically exploiting racial hatred to promote right wing policies. But yes, there is a legitimate base of grievances. The incredible shortage of white activists like your parents, and their almost total absence from progressive politics in the post-apartheid era, don't help. There are very legitimate criticisms of the ANC that can and should be made, but many of those voiced are a combination of crypto-racism and apartheid apologism (eg. "See, they really can't run the country"), and DA opportunism. I can understand being jaded and disaffected, but it's not what the country needs.


but the situation in this country is getting so desperate, that we are going to have to unite, whites and blacks live in two different worlds, separate existences, its like we still living in apartheid
I think this is true. I think it's especially important for progressive activists, black and white, to reach out to poor white workers and farmers. If these people are not offered viable alternatives, their only allies are going to be the fascists, something very frightening as class struggle sharpens and intensifies.

[The_Outernationalist]

I don't think that's exactly true, if you're talking about the whole post-apartheid era. Political organizations are legal, legal barriers to education have been abolished, legal barriers to residency have been abolished. The modern South African state as a much more progressive foreign policy stance than did the apartheid state. These changes do very little to address the major grievances of everyday life, and they are fairly limited. But they are significant, and they are popular victories.


I think this is true of parts of the ANC, including a lot of the top leadership, but not the whole party. The party has very sharp internal struggles, and a mass membership which is mostly harmed by the state's incapacity to deliver basic services. The notion that the party serves the whole black bourgeoisie is clearly false when one looks at the growing support of black businesspeople for the DA.


This is the standard white theory for black voting patterns and I think it's quite limited. Poor black people vote for the ANC because they don't really have better options, unfortunately. What else are you suggesting they do? Many people do believe that in time the ANC will eventually deliver on their promises, which in some sense I think is true, though not necessarily in the obvious ways.


Yes and no. There are right-wing populists, Malema comes to mind, who are cynically exploiting racial hatred to promote right wing policies. But yes, there is a legitimate base of grievances. The incredible shortage of white activists like your parents, and their almost total absence from progressive politics in the post-apartheid era, don't help. There are very legitimate criticisms of the ANC that can and should be made, but many of those voiced are a combination of crypto-racism and apartheid apologism (eg. "See, they really can't run the country"), and DA opportunism. I can understand being jaded and disaffected, but it's not what the country needs.


I think this is true. I think it's especially important for progressive activists, black and white, to reach out to poor white workers and farmers. If these people are not offered viable alternatives, their only allies are going to be the fascists, something very frightening as class struggle sharpens and intensifies.

You know nothing about South Africa, and end up resorting to capitalist apologism. why? see highlighted.

[jake williams]

You know nothing about South Africa, and end up resorting to capitalist apologism. why? see highlighted.
Bullshit. In order:

1) Under the apartheid regime South Africa was a vicious, fascistic little Israel everywhere south of Kenya. This simply isn't true anymore.

2) The ANC has hundreds of thousands of members. You know nothing about South Africa or the ANC if you think they're all right opportunists trying to carve out a place for black capitalism in South Africa.

3) The ANC is a product of the mass movement to liberate the people of South Africa. This liberation can only end in the abolition of capitalism. People are increasingly realizing this. The right wing of the leadership (which is not as right wing as it used to be, because the membership threw out a lot of the worst ones) might not realize this, but I think unwittingly they're a part of the process. This doesn't justify their policies at all, and I don't believe that a "bourgeois democratic" South Africa was a necessary part of the process - other than the sense in which it was, and we have to move forward.

[Nox]

, a government that is so corrupt and filthy with greed

Yes it's such a shame that that's the case, but I definitely support what the ANC stands for. Have you heard about the nationalisation of the mines in South Africa? Check out the ANCYL website, that's where I read about it.


the gap between rich and poor is so huge

Welcome to capitalism, enjoy your stay, things are going to get alot worse :thumbup1:

[jake williams]

Yes it's such a shame that that's the case, but I definitely support what the ANC stands for. Have you heard about the nationalisation of the mines in South Africa? Check out the ANCYL website, that's where I read about it.
The "nationalisation of the mines" is partly a scam. There are a lot of black capitalists, frankly, with a lot of bad investments in unprofitable mines. There is a part of the ANC who wants to bail them out with state money and call it a "nationlisation", something that appeals to the real and legimate demand for popular control of the country's resources. But the ANC is not right now putting a credible program to do that forward, which is of course a real problem.

[Nox]

The "nationalisation of the mines" is partly a scam. There are a lot of black capitalists, frankly, with a lot of bad investments in unprofitable mines. There is a part of the ANC who wants to bail them out with state money and call it a "nationlisation", something that appeals to the real and legimate demand for popular control of the country's resources. But the ANC is not right now putting a credible program to do that forward, which is of course a real problem.

Not saying you're lying; but what makes you think that?

[jake williams]

Not saying you're lying; but what makes you think that?
The SACP has produced a fair amount on this particular subject, and I think broadly speaking they're correct.

http://www.sacp.org.za/main.php?ID=3128

[Nox]

Fair shout :thumbup1:

[cheguvera]

capitalism is now failing all around the world.This is not common to south africa.It has miserably failed in south asia,africa ,south america.it is tattering in usa, eu etc.
it does not wipe out gap between rich & poor.i strongly believe that if any economic policy cannot provide free education or health care to people, it should not exist.