Transphobia and Feminism [Archive]

Quail

26th July 2011, 00:32

Might come back and edit this later because my brain doesn't seem to be working and it's hard to construct sentences that make sense.

To what extent is transphobia present in the modern feminist movement?
Most things I've been involved with have been welcoming to both men and women, so I suppose it's harder for transphobic attitudes to come out (since it isn't necessary to define what a woman is). I don't really notice people being transphobic, but I'm cisgendered, so I might not pick up on subtle transphobia because it wouldn't be directed at me. I can't think of anyone who would be uncomfortable with transwomen being involved in a women-only space though.
In what ways can it be combated?
I think that holding discussions and talking about what it means to be a woman, about male privilege, etc. can raise awareness and help people to understand that transwomen face the same disadvantages in society as any other woman (and more for the gender identity). I also think that feminists need to make an effort to include people of any gender in events that they hold. I can definitely see the reasons for having women-only "safe" spaces, but to tackle patriarchy, everyone needs to be involved, so in my opinion women-only groups that don't try to involve men aren't going to change things. If feminists accept that women and men need to work together for an equal society, they wouldn't be so afraid of people who weren't born with vaginas.
How should feminists define the experience of being a woman?
A woman is someone who identifies as a woman. We all have different experiences and perhaps transwomen might not have the same experiences in their younger life, but living as a woman carries the same downsides no matter what bits you were born with.

GX.

26th July 2011, 09:08

At the same time I think a lot of trans activists have similar reactionary views about gender and gender essentialism, and in fact advocate them, as do the more harmful right-wing feminists, which is a different sort of problem. One thing a lot of people overlook is that the whole Camp Trans thing first started with the demand that only post-op trans women be included in the festival. There is a lot of internalized oppression and really horrible gender politics going on in the trans community too.

I think lesbian separatists and the like are pretty dead set in their views on trans women (they pretty much ignore trans men). Unfortunately I don't think that will change. Even though they keep losing influence in feminist circles they shield themselves from any criticism kind of like some sects on the left. But on the whole attitudes are a lot better than say 30 years ago when that kind of thinking dominated.

The_Outernationalist

26th July 2011, 09:38

This thread will result in at least over 9000 people banned.

The_Outernationalist

26th July 2011, 09:40

The article discusses how this festival for women actively kicks out women who were assigned male at birth.

"Assigned"? by whom? I agree with your sentiment but your choice of wording is a little weird.

Princess Luna

26th July 2011, 19:39

This thread will result in at least over 9000 people banned.
can you elaborate on that statement..........

agnixie

26th July 2011, 19:43

"Assigned"? by whom? I agree with your sentiment but your choice of wording is a little weird.

Assigned by the people involved in birth, which is really what happens; after all there is little to no way, willingness or time to judge things except by what they appear to be. There is a joke among some intersex people that the scientific definition of sex is not much further from measuring things and determining the difference between a clit and a penis by length. It's also mostly true.

Queercommie Girl

26th July 2011, 19:46

The majority of contemporary feminists are not transphobic. And frankly even those that are transphobic are much more subtle about it and much less violent than transphobic men. After all, virtually all of the violent crimes, such as murder and rape, conducted towards transgendered people, especially trans-women, are done by men.

Being a pragmatist therefore, I take male transphobia much more seriously than female transphobia.

Kamos

26th July 2011, 19:51

can you elaborate on that statement..........

"Sexism" is the most moderated offence here by far. The rules are ambiguous and it's easy to slip up. Just check the "Admin Actions" thread - I'm sure that sexism, rape apologism etc. (anything to do with sexes) is the most common reason, possibly behind trolling.

AnonymousOne

26th July 2011, 20:39

"Assigned"? by whom? I agree with your sentiment but your choice of wording is a little weird.

Assigned by society, by parents, by doctors, by teachers, by families. Who arbitrarily pick a gender for you based on the bits you're born with.

The majority of contemporary feminists are not transphobic. And frankly even those that are transphobic are much more subtle about it and much less violent than transphobic men. After all, virtually all of the violent crimes, such as murder and rape, conducted towards transgendered people, especially trans-women, are done by men.

Being a pragmatist therefore, I take male transphobia much more seriously than female transphobia.

I'd say you're wrong, that there is a fair amount of transphobia in the Feminist movement. What makes the problem of transphobia so worrisome in Feminism is because Feminism contains the theory used to liberate and empower women within our society.

If there's transphobia to the extent where a large feminist music festival actively engages in a gender apartheid there's a huge problem, because those transgender women are left without any theory or movement behind them.

I won't debate you on transphobia in men, I suspect there is a lot of transphobia among most men, but I'm discussing specifically what we can do to combat transphobia within the modern feminist movement.

The last line is particularly telling, when you say, "Being a pragmatist therefore, I take male transphobia much more seriously than female transphobia".

Regardless, it behooves you to fight transphobia wherever you find it, regardless of gender.

Your entire post essentially seems to say, "Men are transphobic, so I won't address this concern."

Queercommie Girl

26th July 2011, 20:56

I'd say you're wrong, that there is a fair amount of transphobia in the Feminist movement. What makes the problem of transphobia so worrisome in Feminism is because Feminism contains the theory used to liberate and empower women within our society.

If there's transphobia to the extent where a large feminist music festival actively engages in a gender apartheid there's a huge problem, because those transgender women are left without any theory or movement behind them.

I won't debate you on transphobia in men, I suspect there is a lot of transphobia among most men, but I'm discussing specifically what we can do to combat transphobia within the modern feminist movement.

The last line is particularly telling, when you say, "Being a pragmatist therefore, I take male transphobia much more seriously than female transphobia".

Regardless, it behooves you to fight transphobia wherever you find it, regardless of gender.

Your entire post essentially seems to say, "Men are transphobic, so I won't address this concern."

I'd say there is a huge qualitative difference between not allowing trans-women to attend a women-only music festival and actually raping and murdering trans-women. As much difference as there is between calling a black person "nigg*er" and lynching a black person to death.

I guess I'm just not a subtle person and since I come from a developing country where the majority of the people still live under the poverty line, I take basic survival much more seriously than subtle discrimination. I guess sometimes people who are pre-occupied with basic survival every single day don't have much time to ponder about more abstract prejudices.

At any rate, I didn't say transphobia doesn't exist among feminists. I'm saying the numerical majority of contemporary feminists are not explicitly transphobic. Though it's true that the minority which is transphobic generally seems to be more vocal and therefore have an effect which is disproportionate relative to their numbers.

I'm not saying only men can be transphobic, but it's simply an objective fact that male transphobia is generally speaking a much more serious concern, and frankly I fail to see the point of deliberately singling out "feminist transphobia" solely by itself, as if feminism is a fundamental cause of transphobia in our world. On the contrary, in principle feminism is generally a great ally of the trans movement and the ultimate cause of transphobia, as with homophobia and sexism, lies in both class society and patriarchy, not in feminism of any kind.

Another point is that in the practical sense it means very little for trans-women to focus solely on transgender activism while ignoring women's rights in the more general sense. Case in point: apparently there is very good transgender rights in Iran, more so than in some Western countries, but in the concrete sense it means very little for trans-women given that women in general are so oppressed in Iran.

For a trans-woman like me it simply makes absolutely no sense to see feminism and trans activism as inherently separate - indeed, I see them as intrinsically connected together.

Besides, I never actually said the majority of men are transphobic either. In fact, I don't think the numerical majority of men are explicitly transphobic (at least in the West), however, the minority that do tend to be transphobic in a more serious and violent sense than the minority of women who are transphobic.

Tablo

26th July 2011, 20:57

"Sexism" is the most moderated offence here by far. The rules are ambiguous and it's easy to slip up. Just check the "Admin Actions" thread - I'm sure that sexism, rape apologism etc. (anything to do with sexes) is the most common reason, possibly behind trolling.
Sexism is treated more seriously here now than in the past due to the presence of a bunch of sexist male users on the site. If you want to avoid saying anything sexist then you should read up on what sexism is. The rules aren't ambiguous. They will discipline people for sexism, period. Don't be sexist and infractions/bans won't be an issue.

AnonymousOne

26th July 2011, 21:38

Another point is that in the practical sense it means very little for trans-women to focus solely on transgender activism while ignoring women's rights in the more general sense. Case in point: apparently there is very good transgender rights in Iran, more so than in some Western countries, but in the concrete sense it means very little for trans-women given that women in general are so oppressed in Iran.

For a trans-woman like me it simply makes absolutely no sense to see feminism and trans activism as inherently separate - indeed, I see them as intrinsically connected together.

We agree! The two need to work together, and can't be seperate. With out one the other falters. Which is why I believe that things like transphobia separating the two movements needs to be fought as much as possible.

I don't think it's helpful to say that it doesn't matter compared to, X, Y, and Z. It'd be more useful to try to combat transphobia wherever we see it. If I see a transphobic feminist, I'll be just as likely to correct that person than if I see a transphobic male.

I hope that makes sense, I don't think you're really incorrect with anything you just said, but that still doesn't make transphobia in feminism, something that's okay.

GX.

26th July 2011, 21:47

There is a joke among some intersex people that the scientific definition of sex is not much further from measuring things and determining the difference between a clit and a penis by length. It's also mostly true. I think this also ties into why some feminists are so hostile to trans people. They take biological sex as a given and don't want to consider that it's also socially produced. They claim to be gender abolitionists but subscribe to a specific gendered ontology: gender roles are socially constructed but they're grounded in two stable biological categories that represent some underlying truth about nature. People are limited to the boundaries of patriarchal scientific discourse (weird to hear that coming from feminists). Hence they have to make all kinds of contortions, like saying that intersex people don't truly exist (really, I have seen people argue this) or saying that people only modify their sex characteristics because of the gender binary. And some of what they say might make sense if that were true, but they just take this assumption for granted...

GX.

26th July 2011, 22:18

I'm not saying only men can be transphobic, but it's simply an objective fact that male transphobia is generally speaking a much more serious concern, and frankly I fail to see the point of deliberately singling out "feminist transphobia" solely by itself, as if feminism is a fundamental cause of transphobia in our world. On the contrary, in principle feminism is generally a great ally of the trans movement and the ultimate cause of transphobia, as with homophobia and sexism, lies in both class society and patriarchy, not in feminism of any kind. Well if you're trying to fight against systems of oppression, it's a pretty big deal if people are internalizing the assumptions of that system (see above^^^). That obviously goes for trans activists too.

I guess I'm just not a subtle person and since I come from a developing country where the majority of the people still live under the poverty line, I take basic survival much more seriously than subtle discrimination. I guess sometimes people who are pre-occupied with basic survival every single day don't have much time to ponder about more abstract prejudices.Yeah I agree that this is all pretty far removed from the day to day concerns of a lot of trans people. I mean I would care a lot more about basic safety, medical care, discrimination and employment and accommodations etc.

There is some huge class privilege going on in the kind of issues people prioritize (music festivals, really?). The whole debate over trans inclusion in feminist spaces ignores the privilege and exclusion that is built into those spaces in the first place. other people have pointed this out too: http://eminism.org/readings/pdf-rdg/whose-feminism.pdf

AnonymousOne

26th July 2011, 22:37

There is some huge class privilege going on in the kind of issues people prioritize (music festivals, really?).

Wait, so is it a bad thing to point out transphobia when it's found?
It's disingenious to state that people who have concerns about transphobia within the feminist movement are doing so because of a muic festival.

The music festival article is something that sparked my interest and inquiry into transphobia in feminism, but the thread is about transphobia in feminism as a whole, but I guess you can use a strawman to try to blowover the real issue.

Regardless of privlege, that still doesn't excuse transphobia and it's still something that should be combated.

The fact that privlege is involved doesn't delegitamize the concerns of transwomen who are discriminated against, otherwise you're essentially saying that because they were privleged transgender women it doesn't matter.

GX.

26th July 2011, 23:50

The fact that privlege is involved doesn't delegitamize the concerns of transwomen who are discriminated against, otherwise you're essentially saying that because they were privleged transgender women it doesn't matter Agreed, and I think there should be room to discuss michfest and things like that, but I don't think other concerns should be overlooked. You pointed to the main problem with feminist transphobia earlier, that it leaves trans people without any theoretical/practical engagement on the part of cis feminists, on any of the issues relevant to trans people; that's still a pretty big deal.

Bad Grrrl Agro

28th July 2011, 17:11

I'd say there is a huge qualitative difference between not allowing trans-women to attend a women-only music festival and actually raping and murdering trans-women. As much difference as there is between calling a black person "nigg*er" and lynching a black person to death.

I guess I'm just not a subtle person and since I come from a developing country where the majority of the people still live under the poverty line, I take basic survival much more seriously than subtle discrimination. I guess sometimes people who are pre-occupied with basic survival every single day don't have much time to ponder about more abstract prejudices.

At any rate, I didn't say transphobia doesn't exist among feminists. I'm saying the numerical majority of contemporary feminists are not explicitly transphobic. Though it's true that the minority which is transphobic generally seems to be more vocal and therefore have an effect which is disproportionate relative to their numbers.

I'm not saying only men can be transphobic, but it's simply an objective fact that male transphobia is generally speaking a much more serious concern, and frankly I fail to see the point of deliberately singling out "feminist transphobia" solely by itself, as if feminism is a fundamental cause of transphobia in our world. On the contrary, in principle feminism is generally a great ally of the trans movement and the ultimate cause of transphobia, as with homophobia and sexism, lies in both class society and patriarchy, not in feminism of any kind.

Another point is that in the practical sense it means very little for trans-women to focus solely on transgender activism while ignoring women's rights in the more general sense. Case in point: apparently there is very good transgender rights in Iran, more so than in some Western countries, but in the concrete sense it means very little for trans-women given that women in general are so oppressed in Iran.

For a trans-woman like me it simply makes absolutely no sense to see feminism and trans activism as inherently separate - indeed, I see them as intrinsically connected together.

Besides, I never actually said the majority of men are transphobic either. In fact, I don't think the numerical majority of men are explicitly transphobic (at least in the West), however, the minority that do tend to be transphobic in a more serious and violent sense than the minority of women who are transphobic.
I've known of transwomen who were beaten up by ciswomen.

AnonymousOne

28th July 2011, 20:04

I've known of transwomen who were beaten up by ciswomen.

Relevant: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-24/news/29489017_1_online-video-brutal-assault-video-interview

Transphobia is a part of our current society, and it's embedded culturally also in liberation movements for equality, and it seems as if it will be very difficult to remove this hatred. I think the reason for this is the fact that modern definitions of gender are not accepted widely in society, in the minds of many the experience of being a woman, is being born with a vagina. I think that needs to change, but the big question is how?

Which is why it's an important thing to have the feminist movement firmly in support of transwomen and transpeople.

kahimikarie

28th July 2011, 20:14

I disagree with most of this thread. Second wave feminists (unfairly IMO) have been accused of being transphobic, but fighting transphobia in and out of the feminist movement had been a huge cause for third wavers.

Bad Grrrl Agro

29th July 2011, 15:53

I feel that something that appealed to me about anarcha-feminism is the idea that the gender binary reinforces hierarchy and therefore must be removed. I think that is why I felt so comfortable with anarcha-feminists.

Queercommie Girl

30th July 2011, 00:13

I've known of transwomen who were beaten up by ciswomen.

I never said these cases don't exist at all, but statistically speaking they are much less than cases in which men are the perpetuaters.

Jose Gracchus

30th July 2011, 02:30

Queercommie Girl

30th July 2011, 13:24

What's the point of wandering into a particular thread about a particular act of transphobic bigotry, and complaining "well I care about other things more"? It cannot possibly have any other aim than to be dismissive and delegitimizing toward attention and care directed at this act of bigotry. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think it is misguided to focus so much on feminist transphobia when non-feminist forms of transphobia are a much bigger problem. I don't think raising this point is off-topic at all, with respect to this thread.

I guess I'm just a bit biased towards women and against men, with respect to this particular issue, and some members of the old boy's club here don't like that...:rolleyes:

My point is that no I don't think feminist transphobia today is a big problem. If you consider that to be "delegitimising" and "dismissing" concerns towards this particular issue, then well so be it.

And it's funny how some anti-feminist men seem to pretend to care about the issues of trans women by deliberately focussing on feminist transphobia. They care far more about anti-feminism than about fighting transphobia. The latter is just an opportunistic ploy to find more allies to their cause.

People who just focus on feminist transphobia are basically just picking on women. (And don't forget trans-women are women too!) Women already are an oppressed group in capitalist society anyway. It would make more sense to focus more on the discriminatory attitudes towards trans people by more dominant groups in society. Excessively focussing on feminist transphobia is like focussing on homophobia within the black community in the US or discrimination towards LGBT people in the Third World. Last time I checked Western imperialists are using the excuse of "fighting homophobia" in the Islamic world as a part of their justification to invade the Middle East.

Dr Mindbender

30th July 2011, 15:54

People who just focus on feminist transphobia are basically just picking on women. (And don't forget trans-women are women too!) Women already are an oppressed group in capitalist society anyway.

But how can transwomen win their socially acknowledged gender legitimacy if they don't even have the solidarity of ciswomen?

Queercommie Girl

30th July 2011, 16:00

But how can transwomen win their socially acknowledged gender legitimacy if they don't even have the solidarity of ciswomen?

I'm a trans-woman myself. My point is just that only a minority of feminists today are actually transphobic, so it's not like it's a really major issue anyway.

Dr Mindbender

30th July 2011, 16:02

I'm a trans-woman myself. My point is just that only a minority of feminists today are actually transphobic, so it's not like it's a really major issue anyway.
I dont think thats an excuse for that minority (if it is indeed a minority). I think transphobia needs to be called out and rooted out, first of all from among self labelled progressives and broader society secondly.

Queercommie Girl

30th July 2011, 16:09

I dont think thats an excuse for that minority (if it is indeed a minority). I think transphobia needs to be called out and rooted out, first of all from among self labelled progressives and broader society secondly.

And I didn't say feminist transphobia should be ignored either. I simply made the point that feminist transphobia isn't the primary issue facing the transgendered community at present, relative to other problems we have. Then some self-righteous person like IC who thinks they know more about trans activism than trans people themselves comes around and claim I should be "ashamed of" myself. :rolleyes:

Bad Grrrl Agro

30th July 2011, 17:03

Oddly enough, I have mixed feelings about feminism anyhow. On a political/ideological level I am in agreement but personally I'm not sure whether or not I want the freedoms for myself that the feminist movement is fighting for for other women. As it affects me personally I keep going back and forth and feel internally conflicted.

I guess I am just confused and indecisive. Just take what I say right now with a grain of salt as I am saying it out of an emotional state of mind.

Jose Gracchus

30th July 2011, 17:27

I think it is misguided to focus so much on feminist transphobia when non-feminist forms of transphobia are a much bigger problem. I don't think raising this point is off-topic at all, with respect to this thread.

I guess I'm just a bit biased towards women and against men, with respect to this particular issue, and some members of the old boy's club here don't like that...:rolleyes:

My point is that no I don't think feminist transphobia today is a big problem. If you consider that to be "delegitimising" and "dismissing" concerns towards this particular issue, then well so be it.

And it's funny how some anti-feminist men seem to pretend to care about the issues of trans women by deliberately focussing on feminist transphobia. They care far more about anti-feminism than about fighting transphobia. The latter is just an opportunistic ploy to find more allies to their cause.

People who just focus on feminist transphobia are basically just picking on women. (And don't forget trans-women are women too!) Women already are an oppressed group in capitalist society anyway. It would make more sense to focus more on the discriminatory attitudes towards trans people by more dominant groups in society. Excessively focussing on feminist transphobia is like focussing on homophobia within the black community in the US or discrimination towards LGBT people in the Third World. Last time I checked Western imperialists are using the excuse of "fighting homophobia" in the Islamic world as a part of their justification to invade the Middle East.

Y'know, when I talk shit, I do it right to someone's (in this case, figurative) face. Why don't you say to me 'go and fuck yourself you partriarchal [sic] piece of shit' straight up, rather than hiding in the rep?

All of this is windbaggery. From none of it, follows that a particular time that someone chooses to bring up an individual instance of feminist transphobia, that this somehow invalidates the obvious truism that cisgendered heterosexual males are the primary beneficiaries (in structural terms) of patriarchical, hetero-normative, and gender-normative cultures and institutions, and also the source of most of the disciplinary violence to maintain those structures and privileges.

Your whole argument boils down to this: victims of 'feminist' transphobia should muzzle up, because we cannot afford to take our eyes off the men for one second. The corrollary of this idea is that victims of ciswoman transphobia need to keep that shit to themselves for the good of the movement. I find that just as revolting as the idea that blacks should shut up for the unity of the working class. Its totally ass backwards: unity on these struggles is achieved by confronting bigotry that occurs especially within communities of struggle that should have unity and solidarity, such as transgender communities and ciswomen feminists. In fact it is precisely because the source of the violence directed at them is usually from the same source and same beneficiaries as stated above, that this is necessary.

No one is saying feminist transphobia is a bigger problem than anything else, this is purely a fabrication of yours. How is anyone "focusing" on feminist transphobia by daring to mention a major feminist event where it is featured as a major policy? The obvious implication is transgender women are having much ado about nothing here.

It only goes to show how desperate you are to cover your ass that you're reaching for totally deluded comparisons like OMG BUSHITES USE WOMEN'S PLIGHT IN AFGHANISTAN TO JUSTIFY WAR! How the hell does that have anything to do with someone having the right to bring up this act of bigotry here? And this isn't some anti-feminist man choosing to make this a big deal: this has already been a big enough deal among transgender women for there to be an organized Camp Trans across the street protesting their bigoted policies.

But I forgot, I'm the patriarchal piece of shit for daring to disagree with you, not you for in instance telling the Camp Trans women that they are traitors to women for daring to distract with their mewling about organized bigotry and exclusion.

EDIT: I think it deserves to be mentioned that if one looks at history it is clear the chauvinist and single-issue sections of most communities of struggle are those who sought rapid integration and co-option into bourgeois society. It is their attempt to 'mainstream' and 'meet the important demands first' that characterizes most historical attempts to demobilize struggles and opposition so a narrow section may join as the newest faction of the ruling class. I mean, a cursory examination of LGBTIQQ politics would show a similar pattern where wealthy homosexuals seek to get their marriage and then take their ball and go home, and find it effortless to abandon the rest of the acronym. So there's yet another pragmatic reason to steer clear away from "it is less important so I don't want it seen brought up or distracting" reasoning you've employed here.

khad

30th July 2011, 17:37

Y'know, when I talk shit, I do it right to someone's (in this case, figurative) face. Why don't you say to me 'go and fuck yourself you partriarchal [sic] piece of shit' straight up, rather than hiding in the rep?

All of this is windbaggery. From none of it, follows that a particular time that someone chooses to bring up an individual instance of feminist transphobia, that this somehow invalidates the obvious truism that cisgendered heterosexual males are the primary beneficiaries (in structural terms) of patriarchical, hetero-normative, and gender-normative cultures and institutions, and also the source of most of the disciplinary violence to maintain those structures and privileges.

Your whole argument boils down to this: victims of 'feminist' transphobia should muzzle up, because we cannot afford to take our eyes off the men for one second. The corrollary of this idea is that victims of ciswoman transphobia need to keep that shit to themselves for the good of the movement. I find that just as revolting as the idea that blacks should shut up for the unity of the working class. Its totally ass backwards: unity on these struggles is achieved by confronting bigotry that occurs especially within communities of struggle that should have unity and solidarity, such as transgender communities and ciswomen feminists. In fact it is precisely because the source of the violence directed at them is usually from the same source and same beneficiaries as stated above, that this is necessary.

No one is saying feminist transphobia is a bigger problem than anything else, this is purely a fabrication of yours. How is anyone "focusing" on feminist transphobia by daring to mention a major feminist event where it is featured as a major policy? The obvious implication is transgender women are having much ado about nothing here.

It only goes to show how desperate you are to cover your ass that you're reaching for totally deluded comparisons like OMG BUSHITES USE WOMEN'S PLIGHT IN AFGHANISTAN TO JUSTIFY WAR! How the hell does that have anything to do with someone having the right to bring up this act of bigotry here? And this isn't some anti-feminist man choosing to make this a big deal: this has already been a big enough deal among transgender women for there to be an organized Camp Trans across the street protesting their bigoted policies.

But I forgot, I'm the patriarchal piece of shit for daring to disagree with you, not you for in instance telling the Camp Trans women that they are traitors to women for daring to distract with their mewling about organized bigotry and exclusion.

EDIT: I think it deserves to be mentioned that if one looks at history it is clear the chauvinist and single-issue sections of most communities of struggle are those who sought rapid integration and co-option into bourgeois society. It is their attempt to 'mainstream' and 'meet the important demands first' that characterizes most historical attempts to demobilize struggles and opposition so a narrow section may join as the newest faction of the ruling class. I mean, a cursory examination of LGBTIQQ politics would show a similar pattern where wealthy homosexuals seek to get their marriage and then take their ball and go home, and find it effortless to abandon the rest of the acronym. So there's yet another pragmatic reason to steer clear away from "it is less important so I don't want it seen brought up or distracting" reasoning you've employed here.

TIC, I hope the irony of being an aggressive jerk in talking down to a transwoman over a disagreement about how to approach patriarchy isn't lost on you.

This is your warning. Change your tone or get the fuck out.

Queercommie Girl

30th July 2011, 17:51

Y'know, when I talk shit, I do it right to someone's (in this case, figurative) face. Why don't you say to me 'go and fuck yourself you partriarchal [sic] piece of shit' straight up, rather than hiding in the rep?

Using neg-rep is a standard procedure here on RevLeft, I'm not deliberately "hiding" anything.

Many people use it too, so why just focus on me here now?

... ...
I never said feminist transphobia doesn't exist, or that this thread shouldn't exist at all. I was merely pointing out the objective fact that feminist transphobia isn't the biggest problem facing the trans community (and let's not forget trans-men too, there are very few transphobic attitudes towards trans-men from women, even less than transphobic attitudes towards trans-women) today, which is not going off-topic at all and is a valid response as far as the content of this thread is concerned.

What is annoying is the fact that you have to then come out and start using ad hominems against me simply over a few ideological disagreements. You are the one who made it personal first. There are a few others in this thread who disagree with me on this particular issue to varying extents, yet they could keep the debate objective, unlike you. And I've never seen you speak out in defence of trans rights anywhere on RevLeft, so why suddenly jump out when feminist transphobia is mentioned?

Jose Gracchus

30th July 2011, 19:32

TIC, I hope the irony of being an aggressive jerk in talking down to a transwoman over a disagreement about how to approach patriarchy isn't lost on you.

This is your warning. Change your tone or get the fuck out.

How am I supposed to have an encyclopedic knowledge of who everyone's gender identity is?

I didn't know Iseul is a transwoman, all I thought before now was that (he or she, I did not know) was a very assertive Marxist with a broad knowledge of Chinese history and positions to go with it.

If I offended you with my tone, Iseul, I apologize. I didn't know about your personal investiture in the issue vis-a-vis your gender identity.

khad

30th July 2011, 20:06

How am I supposed to have an encyclopedic knowledge of who everyone's gender identity is?
When they state it explicitly in this very thread.

For a trans-woman like me it simply makes absolutely no sense to see feminism and trans activism as inherently separate - indeed, I see them as intrinsically connected together.

I'm not interested in excuses.

AnonymousOne

30th July 2011, 20:18

And I didn't say feminist transphobia should be ignored either. I simply made the point that feminist transphobia isn't the primary issue facing the transgendered community at present, relative to other problems we have. Then some self-righteous person like IC who thinks they know more about trans activism than trans people themselves comes around and claim I should be "ashamed of" myself. :rolleyes:

Wow, I'd find it very interesting if you could create a thread on transphobia where you could discuss what you think the primary concerns facing the Trans community are. I'd definitely find it educational. as I'm not very literate when it comes to issues of gender identity. I've read some Butler and a lot of Foucault, but that's about it. So, I'd definitely be interested in reading about transactivism since I don't have a good background there.

However, I'd like to still have this thread so we can talk about ways we can help reduce transphobia in the feminist community. Transphobia and ignorance are rooted in both cismen and ciswomen, and having feminists stand in solidarity with the trans community I think would be helpful.

I'm very glad that you brought up other issues, but this is an issue I'd still like to discuss. It's not very helpful for the discussion if you keep saying that other issues matter more, we can have a separate discussion but I'd like this one to be on Transphobia within the Feminist movement. There are also mainstream feminists who hold transphobic views, the feminist scholar Sheila Jeffreys for example. An obstacle for the Transfeminism and Transgender movements are inclusion within the mainstream Feminist movement.

Jose Gracchus

30th July 2011, 21:16

Using neg-rep is a standard procedure here on RevLeft, I'm not deliberately "hiding" anything.

Many people use it too, so why just focus on me here now?

I think you should flame me openly where everyone can see it, if that's how you really feel. And that's how I feel about everyone who neg-reps.

I never said feminist transphobia doesn't exist, or that this thread shouldn't exist at all. I was merely pointing out the objective fact that feminist transphobia isn't the biggest problem facing the trans community (and let's not forget trans-men too, there are very few transphobic attitudes towards trans-men from women, even less than transphobic attitudes towards trans-women) today, which is not going off-topic at all and is a valid response as far as the content of this thread is concerned.

But who said that feminist transphobia was the biggest problem facing the trans community? I'm sorry if I jumped down your throat, but I do have a trans cousin who has met some of this bigotry, and I didn't realize you were trans. :blushing: Sorry.

What is annoying is the fact that you have to then come out and start using ad hominems against me simply over a few ideological disagreements. You are the one who made it personal first. There are a few others in this thread who disagree with me on this particular issue to varying extents, yet they could keep the debate objective, unlike you. And I've never seen you speak out in defence of trans rights anywhere on RevLeft, so why suddenly jump out when feminist transphobia is mentioned?

I just think there's no need to point out pro forma that heterosexual cismales are the primary source of bigotry on all these structures of oppression. It seemed to me you were trying to say that there was nothing for those women in Trans Camp to complain about, vis-a-vis their exclusion (which is part and parcel of their general oppression, I am aware) from this women's event, which I think is really tragic and too bad because I think both parties would probably benefit from dialogue and solidarity.

Bad Grrrl Agro

30th July 2011, 22:38

TIC, I hope the irony of being an aggressive jerk in talking down to a transwoman over a disagreement about how to approach patriarchy isn't lost on you.

This is your warning. Change your tone or get the fuck out.
I am pleasantly very surprised seeing you saying something I kind of like. Usually I find myself disagreeing with you. Kudos and cheers!;):)

But with all due respect, I also find it ironic that you've talked down to me before, but that's water under the bridge.

Bad Grrrl Agro

30th July 2011, 22:47

Wow, I'd find it very interesting if you could create a thread on transphobia where you could discuss what you think the primary concerns facing the Trans community are. I'd definitely find it educational. as I'm not very literate when it comes to issues of gender identity. I've read some Butler and a lot of Foucault, but that's about it. So, I'd definitely be interested in reading about transactivism since I don't have a good background there.
Reading Kate Bornstien's works would be a start.

However, I'd like to still have this thread so we can talk about ways we can help reduce transphobia in the feminist community. Transphobia and ignorance are rooted in both cismen and ciswomen, and having feminists stand in solidarity with the trans community I think would be helpful.
There is transphobia from some transwomen towards other transwomen too. There is bigotry sometimes between different groups that fall under the trans umbrella.

Bad Grrrl Agro

31st July 2011, 00:21

I never said these cases don't exist at all, but statistically speaking they are much less than cases in which men are the perpetuaters.
From my experience it is about even. Remember how a while back there was an incident of bathroom hate violence against a transwoman in a McDonalds women's room out on the US east coast and went up on youtube? That was perpetrated by a group of women.

Many gays and lesbians treat transfolks like shit. There are lots of straight men and women who treat transfolks like shit. There are even plenty of transfolks who treat transfolks like shit.

Lenina Rosenweg

31st July 2011, 00:52

Thirsty Crow

31st July 2011, 01:03

Tim Finnegan

31st July 2011, 01:27

Women already are an oppressed group in capitalist society anyway. It would make more sense to focus more on the discriminatory attitudes towards trans people by more dominant groups in society.
But the women in question are cis women, which means they are a dominant group in a sense that is extremely pertinent to this context. You can't save your ire exclusively for those who tick every privilege box going, or you'll never get anything done- and the necessity of getting things done, if I read you correctly, is the main thrust of your argument.

Bad Grrrl Agro

31st July 2011, 02:08

I am not (to my shame) super familiar with currents in contemporary feminism. I have a friend, Joelle Ryan who is an academic and a trans activist. Joelle has said she has had a terrible experience with academic feminists. She had expected academic feminist groups to be allies but instead she had found them to be viciously transphobic. Joelle says this comes from the influence of second wave feminism, which is still influential in academia. This especially comes from the work of Janice Raymond, author of "Transsexual Empire" which is a radical feminist critique of TGism. Basically the idea is that TGism and TSism are merely "male imperialism colonizing women's space". This concept isn't taken seriously by researchers or people involved in the trans community but has been influential in feminism.

I do not know how widespread these ideas are in feminism today.

Transgender people, especially m to fs, suffer an incredible amount of discrimination and oppression. If one does not fit into societal norms of passability it is virtually impossible for a TG to get a livable job, housing, or be immune from constant public harassment.I believe 8 or 9 US states now have laws banning discrimination based on gender identity but this is purely symbolic. A lot of work needs to be done in this area.

As Esperanza said, unfortunately there is very little solidarity within the trans community. The community is very divided along class, occupational, and racial lines. For TG people of color w/out technical skills live can be a nightmare.The muder rate for T%G people of color in the uS (don't know about Britain) is very high, sadly.
From my experience the transwomen of racial minority status are divided among certain lines.

I think there is also a lot less unity withing the TG community as so many of us try to live stealth and blend in. It is difficult to get a group of us together because a lot of us fear being outed or read and from my experience they read one in the group they read all of us in the group. That can be dangerous. Also as one transwoman I know said: "you put two trannies together and one of two things will happen they will either be like sisters or they will be rivals and hate each other" (She and I are like sisters and we even look like sisters, lol)

Also, I am from the US and I'm latina (specifically chicana) so my experiences are going to be different from a transwoman of asian decent living in the UK.

Lynx

1st August 2011, 06:05

I don't get, and I probably never will, why the dominated groups tend to embrace the very same ideological underpinnings of attempts to justify the status quo and then proceed to work with them.
To be concrete, it's baffling to see feminists adopting a rigid view of gender which states that there are only two groups, and that the "borders" between them are set and shouldn't be transgressed. There is women's space and there is male space. I really can't comprehend how do these people neglect to see how this amounts to a reproduction of the dominant, ruling ideology.
According to separatist feminists, it is bio-logical. The music festival in question is run by reactionaries who have the legal right to exclude whomever they choose. They are interested in gender equality through segregation. I would say that gaining acceptance to such a group is futile and counterproductive.

Revy

5th August 2011, 05:49

A possible reason why transwomen are not allowed at this festival is because of the idea that transwomen are "men". There have been legal efforts in America to ban transgender people from using the restroom of the gender they identify with. I think trans people should be respected as the gender they identify with.

I don't believe in generalizing feminism as transphobic. I think it's probably only a few feminists that are the cause of this and it's because they are so radically anti-male they don't like transwomen because they see them as men. I think that's the most likely reason. And the reason this Michigan Womyn's Festival has done this, probably because of the influence of the person or the few people that are in control of the event.

If you want more examples of this transphobia masquerading as feminism...here are a couple more I have seen....

http://radicalhub.wordpress.com/comments-policy/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1360460/Andrej-Pejic-Fashions-ultimate-insult-women-man-dresses-woman.html

Queercommie Girl

6th August 2011, 00:11

But the women in question are cis women, which means they are a dominant group in a sense that is extremely pertinent to this context. You can't save your ire exclusively for those who tick every privilege box going, or you'll never get anything done- and the necessity of getting things done, if I read you correctly, is the main thrust of your argument.

I'm not disputing this in theory or in the abstract sense. "Dominance" is obviously relative.

What I do believe is that there is a hierarchy of relative importance when it comes to activist issues. Feminist transphobia can indeed be a serious problem, but objectively you cannot deny the fact that very few women actually murder, rape or serious hurt trans people, since much fewer women than men actually become murderers and rapists of any type. This is not something exclusive to trans-related issues. Most people who murder, rape or seriously hurt trans people are men, and not just any men on the street either, but usually either policemen or organised criminals.

I tend to believe that dealing with actual rape and murder is much more important than dealing with abstract academic transphobia, or in this case, being excluding from a women's music festival which frankly is dubious anyway due to its strong gender-separatist BS, which is reactionary.

I don't even think trans-women should actively try to participate in this kind of music festival because in many ways it is inherently reactionary. It's a bit like fighting for the right for gays to join the US army.

Queercommie Girl

6th August 2011, 00:14

From my experience it is about even. Remember how a while back there was an incident of bathroom hate violence against a transwoman in a McDonalds women's room out on the US east coast and went up on youtube? That was perpetrated by a group of women.

Many gays and lesbians treat transfolks like shit. There are lots of straight men and women who treat transfolks like shit. There are even plenty of transfolks who treat transfolks like shit.

It is an objective fact that very few women, compared with men, actually rape or murder trans people. This is not really due to anything specific in trans issues, it's just that statistically speaking far fewer women become rapists or murderers of any kind, compared with men.

Queercommie Girl

6th August 2011, 00:32

I think you should flame me openly where everyone can see it, if that's how you really feel. And that's how I feel about everyone who neg-reps.

The thing is, "open flaming" may seem impolite to other people involved in the debate who might be taking your side, since it would seem like I'm targetting everyone on your side of the argument rather than just you.

Note that I did not "flame" because of the disagreement we have per se, I "flamed" against you because you were rude towards me. The others on your side of the argument didn't do this.

But who said that feminist transphobia was the biggest problem facing the trans community? I'm sorry if I jumped down your throat, but I do have a trans cousin who has met some of this bigotry, and I didn't realize you were trans. :blushing: Sorry.

I just think there's no need to point out pro forma that heterosexual cismales are the primary source of bigotry on all these structures of oppression. It seemed to me you were trying to say that there was nothing for those women in Trans Camp to complain about, vis-a-vis their exclusion (which is part and parcel of their general oppression, I am aware) from this women's event, which I think is really tragic and too bad because I think both parties would probably benefit from dialogue and solidarity.
Well, I didn't say feminist transphobia isn't a problem either. I think sometimes it can actually manifest itself as a serious problem in some contexts. (In fact, I myself have vocally spoken against transphobic feminists like Julie Bindel before) I'm just saying relatively speaking, it's a much less problem than the actual rape and murder of trans people, especially trans-women.

I think objectively speaking heterosexual cis-males are the biggest source of discrimination, especially very serious discrimination, against trans people, as well as against other minorities. I don't believe it is progressive at all to label someone as "reverse sexist" or something for pointing this fact out, not that I'm suggesting that is what you are explicitly doing here.

As for this particular women's music festival, I don't think the festival itself is really progressive either, judging from its gender-separatist and frankly rather anti-male character. (See, I do defend men as well when real sexism against men is present, I just don't believe in any kind of "reverse sexism/racism etc." nonsense) In fact, I would take the academic transphobia by people like Julie Bindel much more seriously than some semi-reactionary bourgeois music show.

I think you might be trying to suggest that I basically went off-topic, but as I said this isn't really true at all. If you look at one of the explicit questions the OP asked in the very first post in this whole thread: To what extent is transphobia present in the modern feminist movement? Then I basically answered his question by saying that although feminist transphobia is a problem, it isn't such a major problem like some people think it is.

Bad Grrrl Agro

6th August 2011, 00:41

It is an objective fact that very few women, compared with men, actually rape or murder trans people. This is not really due to anything specific in trans issues, it's just that statistically speaking far fewer women become rapists or murderers of any kind, compared with men.
See transphobia is just as much a problem amongst women. Just because men are allegedly, statistically more violent doesn't mean that they are any less or more transphobic. Indeed it means they react to their feelings differently.

Bad Grrrl Agro

6th August 2011, 00:46

I think objectively speaking heterosexual cis-males are the biggest source of discrimination, especially very serious discrimination, against trans people, as well as against other minorities.
Well who has the most power in society...

Queercommie Girl

6th August 2011, 00:46

See transphobia is just as much a problem amongst women. Just because men are allegedly, statistically more violent doesn't mean that they are any less or more transphobic. Indeed it means they react to their feelings differently.

Yes but there is still a huge difference between being verbally attacked for being a trans-woman and being raped and murdered for being a trans-woman.

I don't know about you, sister, but frankly I'd much rather be a victim of the first type...

Bad Grrrl Agro

6th August 2011, 00:52

Yes but there is still a huge difference between being verbally attacked for being a trans-woman and being raped and murdered for being a trans-woman.

I don't know about you, sister, but frankly I'd much rather be a victim of the first type...
Why should we have to settle on accepting one based on the fact that it is less severe?

You forgot the beat and battered part, which was what I was referring to, not verbal attacks.

Queercommie Girl

6th August 2011, 00:54

Why should we have to settle on accepting one based on the fact that it is less severe?

I didn't say we should "settle on the lesser evil" at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that despite the fact that the person who has murdered 1 person and the person who has murdered 10 people are both serious criminals, if I were a police officer in a genuine democratic Soviet state, I would in principle aim to eradicate both murderers and all types of violent crime regardless of their intensity, yet I would still divert more resources, efforts and time on the 2nd murderer.

Queercommie Girl

6th August 2011, 01:07

Also, I just want to emphasise that technically speaking, blaming men in general on serious violent transphobia isn't really fair either. Fact is, the average working class man or "middle class" man is very unlikely to become a rapist and/or murderer of trans people, despite many of them holding somewhat transphobic prejudices to varying degrees. As I said, objectively speaking the vast majority of people who actually rape/murder trans people are either organised criminals or policemen (in some countries), in other words, either vicious lumpen-bourgeois or reactionary minions of the bourgeois state. Both are groups a genuine socialist revolution should wipe out.

Bad Grrrl Agro

6th August 2011, 18:08

I didn't say we should "settle on the lesser evil" at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that despite the fact that the person who has murdered 1 person and the person who has murdered 10 people are both serious criminals, if I were a police officer in a genuine democratic Soviet state, I would in principle aim to eradicate both murderers and all types of violent crime regardless of their intensity, yet I would still divert more resources, efforts and time on the 2nd murderer.
While I've been physically attacked by both I do agree that the majority were men.

As for rape, it depends on how you define words like rape, sexual assault and consent. There have been instances when women pressured me into doing something I didn't want to do sexually because they were in the mood and I wasn't. But the only people who physically forced themselves upon me were men. Also both have taken advantage of me while I was too drunk (or fucked up on something) to give legitimate consent.