Ideally, what should happen to the Norway shooter?

[CHE with an AK]

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20110724&t=2&i=464843664&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=460&pl=300&r=2011-07-24T012550Z_01_BTRE76N03Z500_RTROPTP_0_NORWAY-KILLER-VIDEO


"A common topic of conversation in Norway is that this person will be convicted to the harshest penalty that we can give him, which is 21 years in prison," Sandberg said. "That means he is out after 16 years. He might be out after 14 years. And then he will be a free man. And he killed so many. We don't have laws that could lay out a penalty for what he's done."
http://www.npr.org/2011/07/23/138634243/norway-rescuers-search-waters-after-island-attack

In lieu of the insane reality that Norway’s judicial system only allows for a maximum of 21 years in prison, and thus Anders Behring Breivik might be a “free man” in as little as 14 years with good behavior – I am now curious as to what those here on RevLeft think an appropriate punishment should be?

In this instance, Breivik the right-wing psychopath blew up a building holding the prime ministers office and killed 7 people and then went to a island youth camp for teenagers of the left leaning labor party dressed as a police officer and killed at least 85 teenagers (many at point blank range, or as they tried to swim away from the island) – even making sure to shoot them with a handgun and come back later to shoot those lying on the ground in the head with a shotgun to be sure.

So, A few questions, if you feel inclined to answer all/any of them ...


(1.) How should a "just" society handle someone who commits such an atrocious act?

(2.) What factors should be considered when dealing out the punishment for a crime such as this? Revenge? Future Deterrence? Justice? Retribution? Healing? Forgiveness? Closure? Rehabilitation? Vengeance? etc

(3.) If incarceration only, then is merely sitting locked up in a cell a fitting punishment for such a crime? Should solitary confinement be used? Should hard labor be involved? Are inhumane conditions or pain affliction/torture universally out of the question in your opinion? Is there such a thing as making a punishment so servere that it might make a potential perpetrator rethink their actions, or at least make the victims families feel better?



:confused:

[Vendetta]

IMHO, that dude needs to be drawn and quartered.

Seriously, fuck that guy.

[Nox]

Lifetime in a hard labour camp. Death is the easy option for him. Extract as much labour out of him as possible, and use the profits to make the lives of other people better :)

[Libertador]

It would be hypocritical of the Left to demand capital punishment for this man when we've so often in the past criticized the practice. Although this man is absolutely and undeniably evil in both his morality and world view. I honestly can't answer any of these questions with a sure answer.

I'm torn between my desire for justice and my disgust of capital punishment.

[AnonymousOne]

He becomes fully rehabilitated and realizes the error of his ways and is no longer a danger to society, becoming a productive individual that works to help people.

Revenge is never good.

[Aloysius]

Let the friends and family of every person he killed punch him.
Anywhere.

[Tenka]

He becomes fully rehabilitated and realizes the error of his ways and is no longer a danger to society, becoming a productive individual that works to help people.

Revenge is never good.
I agree, except I think brain surgery and/or specially-manufactured drugs could help in the rehabilitation, to think about it slightly less than ideally. Some just need a little bit more help, don't they?

Voted other.
(since we're speaking of this "ideally"... wouldn't it be great if we could manufacture a drug to turn people into communists?)

[Sugarnotch]

He becomes fully rehabilitated and realizes the error of his ways and is no longer a danger to society, becoming a productive individual that works to help people.

Revenge is never good.I agree with this. Retribution is not what the legal system is for -- my emotions on the subject don't matter -- it's for dealing with things with equitable justice. Killing is not just.

[Libertador]

(since we're speaking of this "ideally"... wouldn't it be great if we could manufacture a drug to turn people into communists?) Not sure if troll, or serious.

[Kamos]

From those, the labor camp. His crime is too serious for a short sentence and our prison system is not yet advanced enough for anything better. Of course, ideally rehabilitation would be the best, but it's pointless to speak of "ideally" when even our best methods of rehabilitation only work with a part of the criminals.

Rereading the events, however, a mental ward might be exactly the case of this guy.

[Zav]

Execution is unethical, and life imprisonment is pointless. He killed a lot of innocent people, but that doesn't mean he still can't be worth something as a human being. I think he should serve 20 years or so and get treatment. Who knows? Maybe he'll reform.

[Red Commissar]

I care less for the individual- ideally there should be actual action taken to check the growth of that toxic mindset he originated from.

[Jimmie Higgins]

a drug to turn people into communists?It's called weed.

Ideally what should happen is that the nationalist right rhetoric and Islamophobia are forever exposed in the minds of millions of people as not just being a political viewpoint or whatnot, but as a invitation for and call to violence on behalf of the ruling class to scare people into submission.

Other than that, I hope they shave off his creepy facial hair and if we were being hypothetical and I believed in poetic justice he should be sent to gitmo to meet some real world-dominating terrorists, and I don't mean the other prisoners.

[tachosomoza]

Draw and quarter him and mail the remains to the headquarters of a fascist group.

Better yet, chain him to a post in the middle of Newark or Detroit.

[CHE with an AK]

Since I am a member of the left who has no qualms with capital punishment - (but often thinks it is misused on the wrong people i.e. poor minorities without quality legal defense, rather than say white collar men who destroy thousands of lives like Bernie Madoff or kill large numbers of people like this right-wing psycho) - I would undoubtedly favor execution in this instance. Especially when I personalize it and imagine that one of those teens had been my sister/cousin/child etc.

I guess my only quarrel then becomes how to execute him. Part of me says to have a firing squad of 10 family members (if they’d like) shoot the guy and be over with it all – but then the other part of me thinks that might be too quick and easy for a crime such as his. Thus, since they say that death by thirst can be one of the most agonizing ways to die, I think I would ideally favor just burying him alive in small coffin (with 1 air tube) and letting him slowly die from lack of water after several days. But then again, I have always personally struggled with the desire for justice-based revenge and realize that I have a ‘Robespierre’-ian streak in me.

As for rehabilitation, I guess I just can’t come to grips with the fact that he may experience a litany of life joys that his countless victims never will. When you add in the fact that I don’t think there is a heaven or hell and thus those 90 + teens lives are over forever, and he won’t receive any punishment in the after-life either, then for me it becomes imperative that he receive his judgment here on earth. Sure it doesn’t bring any of the teens back that he killed, but perhaps it might help give some of their families closure knowing that he: (1) died a painful death and maybe during that experience understood the pain he caused the victims and the continual pain he will always bring to the victims families, (2) won’t ever get to experience many of the things that he stole from those teens, (3) can never escape or perhaps commit the same crime again. I do think some cathartic closure can be garnered through capital punishment in some cases, although I realize that this position may not be popular with parts of the more passive left.

[Tenka]

It's called weed.
Maybe if they read the manifesto whilst high, but in the majority of cases weed appears rather ineffective at facilitating any political position besides a general anti-authority sentiment which is shared by people all over the left-right spectrum. An adequate drug for the purpose of turning right-wingers into communists would not likely be found in nature.


Ideally what should happen is that the nationalist right rhetoric and Islamophobia are forever exposed in the minds of millions of people as not just being a political viewpoint or whatnot, but as a invitation for and call to violence on behalf of the ruling class to scare people into submission.

Other than that, I hope they shave off his creepy facial hair and if we were being hypothetical and I believed in poetic justice he should be sent to gitmo to meet some real world-dominating terrorists, and I don't mean the other prisoners.
I agree with the shaving part especially.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Life imprisonment, perhaps with the chance of parole in 50 years. Give him an incentive to actually reform himself.

The social conservatism of some of you is amazing, as soon as emotions get in the way. Wouldn't trust some of you to run a security office, let alone the security/judicial apparatus.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

In normal times, the left should always oppose capital punishment as we oppose other actions which endanger peoples' basic rights (in this case, to life) for any unjust reason, including that of revenge.

[GPDP]

It's hard answering a question like this, because inevitably emotions will come into play, hence some of the comments above (some of which I'm sure are not completely serious, but others I'm not so sure).

Personally, if I may give in to my irrational side for a second, I would like to see him get the shit beat out of him, paraded around the streets of Oslo tarred and feathered (with a red flag draped around him for lulz), then locked away in a padded cell where they will stare at him through a tiny window for many, many years.

Setting my revenge fantasy aside, however, he should go through rehabilitation, and do manual labor and community service for at least a decade, preferably more. If he shows no sign of improvement, lock him away in an asylum.

[CHE with an AK]

In normal times, the left should always oppose capital punishment
Would the present day political and economic climate be considered "normal times" in your estimation?

[CHE with an AK]

The social conservatism of some of you is amazing.
Out of genuine curiosity and spirit of dialogue, could you extrapolate on what you mean by "social conservatism" in this instance?

[Salyut]

I'm sure Spitsbergen has many rocks that need be turned into little rocks.

By hand.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe if they read the manifesto whilst high, but in the majority of cases weed appears rather ineffective at facilitating any political position besides a general anti-authority sentiment which is shared by people all over the left-right spectrum. An adequate drug for the purpose of turning right-wingers into communists would not likely be found in nature.
I was only joking. In "Do it" by Jerry Rubin he bombastically calls pot the "communist drug" because according to him, "whenever you get your hands on a good amount you want nothing more than to share it with everyone you come across". But Jerry Rubin would also have been restricted on RevLeft for other things he said and my own experience with libertarian stoners tells me to take his observation with a grain of salt. And who said communism was about sharing and "spreading the wealth" from above?

But yeah I agree - even if there was some kind of ideological drug, what kind of democratic society would want to employ it - I don't think workers would want to run "Brave New World" the society.

[Thirsty Crow]

It would be hypocritical of the Left to demand capital punishment for this man when we've so often in the past criticized the practice. Although this man is absolutely and undeniably evil in both his morality and world view. I honestly can't answer any of these questions with a sure answer.

I'm torn between my desire for justice and my disgust of capital punishment.
It would be even more hypocritical to argue for forced labour camps since the very legal existence of such an institution would be necessary for him to be sent there, which implies a support for such institutions by proxy.

Also, the issue is not whether the man is pure evil or not (moralistic arguments should be put aside when confronting events such as this one, which are without a shadow of doubt politically and socially motivated). The issue is one of effective proto-fascist organizing.

I voted for life imprisonment. Though, I'll admit to one thing: the man provokes extreme feelings in me, and I sincerely hope that he'll end up in a cell block where there are enough people more than ready to make his entire life in prison a living hell.

[Delenda Carthago]

Hard social labor 13 hours/day for the rest of his life while prisoned.

[Thirsty Crow]

Hard social labor 13 hours/day for the rest of his life while prisoned.
And ideally this kind of imprisonment wouldn't function as means in the overall strategy of class rule under capitalism, right? Ideally, only the most vile of criminals would undergo such treatment? And ideally, we'd have smart and responsible human beings determining who should be forced to hard labour and who should not?

Shit, you people with forced labour ideas are fucked up, honestly.

[RemoveYourChains]

So, A few questions, if you feel inclined to answer all/any of them ...

"Retribution" (in the sense of "getting our pound of flesh"/satiating the sadistic passion to do maximum harm to those who hurt us) is, for the most part, a useless and counter-productive goal. It demeans society at large.

So "retribution" in the above sense is out. No amount of infliction of anguish or suffering will "bring back" those who lost their lives (allegedly) at the suspect's hands.

However, in cases like this I would strongly advise execution.

This is not for the satisfaction of blood-thirst, but as a measure of deterrence. While the deterrence argument is generally a weak one for capital punishment (ex. "crimes of passion", or those born out of insanity, desperation, etc.), I do believe it has great utility when it comes to acts as calculated as this (and meant to accrue huge casualties, destabilize the country, etc.)

Anything less than this runs the risk of making such attempts seem like a "reasonable investment" for conspirators - "21 years to strike a major blow to an entire people...good deal!"

That said, execution is as far as civilized society should go - torture, mutilation, etc. will brutalize society and make us all the worse.

[RemoveYourChains]

It would be hypocritical of the Left to demand capital punishment for this man when we've so often in the past criticized the practice.

Well that "we" doesn't include me. I generally don't support capital punishment when there is a possibility of keeping those who are a danger to society in some form of incarceration - but in cases where someone may be making a calculation that long-term/life imprisonment might be a worthwhile price to pay for imposing themselves so heinously on society at large, a severe penalty (short of torture, which perverts the psyche of society) is definitely practical.

This is especially so when dealing with reactionary elements that have the destabilization of society in mind - for instance, holding out the hope that if their "revolution" were to succeed, they would be pardoned/sprung from their sentences.

[RemoveYourChains]

In normal times, the left should always oppose capital punishment as we oppose other actions which endanger peoples' basic rights (in this case, to life) for any unjust reason, including that of revenge.

What "rights" are you referring to?

I'm hoping you're not making a "natural rights" argument. Sure sounds like it.

[Delenda Carthago]

And ideally this kind of imprisonment wouldn't function as means in the overall strategy of class rule under capitalism, right? Ideally, only the most vile of criminals would undergo such treatment? And ideally, we'd have smart and responsible human beings determining who should be forced to hard labour and who should not?

Shit, you people with forced labour ideas are fucked up, honestly.
The concept of "ideally" only exists in the minds of idealists.

edit: And I m not even asking for the guys death...

[Meridian]

Imprisonment for 21 years then 'detainment' for the rest of his life unless obvious progress and exemplary change of attitudes has occurred.

Which is what will happen. He will never be free again.

[Desperado]

Damn. Are so many even on secular Revleft still attached to the illogical Judaic ideas of blame which is the backbone of conservatism? Sorry to break it to you: there are no imaginary scales of justice which will be corrected if we take this man's life. So far as we are able to detain him and keep the rest of society safe from him - which we are - killing this man will do nothing other than kill another man. People do things because of the situation they are in. Leftists should know this - the poor steal because they are poor, not because they are "bad".

Changing this situation is the priority, not blaming the victims - for criminals are also victims. For somebody to perform an act like this means there is something wrong with them. When people have defects, we do not punish them. When people are disabled, we shouldn't torment them, when somebody can't read, we shouldn't cane them.

The deterrent argument (the only one with weight) is empirically fallacious. Compare the crime statistics of states with and without the death penalty (I'll wap them out if you want - got them from my liberal Economist reading days) and you'll see little difference.

[Thirsty Crow]

The concept of "ideally" only exists in the minds of idealists.

edit: And I m not even asking for the guys death...
Well good then, if the concept of the "ideal" only exists in the minds of idealists, you must be supporting forced labour in a prison system within capitalist class rule. That's good to know.

And what about your lack of calling for the guy's death? RemoveYourChains has at least provided a somewhat decent argument for executing him (though I don't buy it), but you on the other hand indirectly support forced labour in capitalism, which is totally deranged.

[Meridian]

Damn. Are so many even on secular Revleft still attached to the illogical Judaic ideas of blame which is the backbone of conservatism? Sorry to break it to you: there are no imaginary scales of justice which will be corrected if we take this man's life. So far as we are able to detain him and keep the rest of society safe from him - which we are - killing this man will do nothing other than kill another man. People do things because of the situation they are in. Leftists should know this - the poor steal because they are poor, not because they are "bad".

Changing this situation is the priority, not blaming the victims - for criminals are also victims. For somebody to perform an act like this means there is something wrong with them. When people have defects, we do not punish them. When people are disabled, we shouldn't torment them, when somebody can't read, we shouldn't cane them.

The deterrent argument (the only one with weight) is empirically fallacious. Compare the crime statistics of states with and without the death penalty (I'll wap them out if you want - got them from my liberal Economist reading days) and you'll see little difference.
I disagree with everything you said about this man being a victim; I think it is a misuse of the word.

However, I agree that he is certainly a result of the conditions of his environment and that executing him would be unwise.

People are misunderstanding Norway's justice system, the man will never "go free" for the rest of his life.

[Desperado]

(short of torture, which perverts the psyche of society)

And why doesn't murder "pervert the psyche of society"?

[Genti]

Absolutly not death penalty it would be easy and without hurt

My opinion is Life time in a hard labor camp

[Obs]

Why the fuck do you guys care what happens to him?

[punisa]

Death by firing squad.
I am aware that many will disagree, so no need to point that one out.

[Demogorgon]

He believes in a more conservative society with harsher punishment. His victims for the most part would have supported Norway's more humane justice system. Are you going to respond to his crimes by stating he was right and they were wrong?

He should get 21 years.

[Thirsty Crow]

He believes in a more conservative society with harsher punishment. His victims for the most part would have supported Norway's more humane justice system. Are you going to respond to his crimes by stating he was right and they were wrong?

He should get 21 years.
There's nothing humane about prison systems which are loosely organized and which release prisoners like the sociopath Vikernes for weekend, and there's also nothing humane about risking that this walking danger of a man be released when still capable of organizing or carrying out such acts.

[DarkPast]

Life imprisonment is rather dumb in my opinion. It's not like he'll get better through being locked up, so it's basically torture and I don't think we should stoop to that.

I think he knew what he had coming, so I'm against the death penalty and giving him an easy way out.

Therefore I vote for forced labour, preferably with the profits going to the families of the victims.

[Feodor Augustus]

An adequate drug for the purpose of turning right-wingers into communists would not likely be found in nature.

There is some limited evidence that the brains of right-wing and left-wing people actually work in a different manner. Studies have shown that right-wing folks have a more pronounced amygdala - a primitive part of the brain associated with emotional reaction - and left-wing people have thicker anterior cingulates - the area that controls rational cognitive functions, such as reward anticipation, decision-making, empathy and emotional control.

Of course whether there is a remedy for such deficiencies is an entirely different matter.

As for the poll, I voted other: hopefully a few years down the line a fellow inmate will, as American prison parlance calls it, 'shank' Breivik. However to move from the reaction of my own amygdala area and towards my anterior cingulates, it must be said that his death will likely only turn him into a martyr, and thus the most suitable punishment would be the one that diminished his status the most, that belittled and demystified him and his actions.

In effect, then, rehabilitating and forgiving this [choose your own suitably venomous expletive] is perhaps more powerful than any other punishment, however hard that is to stomach at a time like this - and I freely admit that I wouldn't necessarily have the courage to say this to any of the victims or their families. (At least to their face.)

Indeed to give credit to a 'bourgeois politician', the Norwegian PM's advocacy of “more democracy”, “more humanity” and “more openness” (http://owenjones.org/2011/07/23/solidarity-with-norway/) in response to this is most commendable - particularly given, as indeed the article linked notes, the reactions to terrorism in the past on the part of other western leaders.

Civilisation only triumphs over barbarism by refusing to lower itself to its standard.

[Chambered Word]

I don't see why we're speculating on what the justice system of a capitalist state should be doing with this guy's life. I'd probably be happy if he died though. He's already an unnecessary danger to people's safety and I have little sympathy for bourgeois scumbags like himself.

Still, nobody here should support the death penalty, communists should see something wrong about giving the state the right to end lives. I would have thought that a place like RevLeft was mature enough to not produce stupid revenge fantasy threads like these.

EDIT: thought the last post hadn't gone through, damnit.

[Ocean Seal]

I'll pick the labor camp. He killed 92 people, an individual that disturbed can't return to society in 14 years. He should be kept in a psych ward for all his life if they can't leave him in prison. But in my opinion he would contribute most in a labor camp.

[Wanted Man]

In before this thread gets inundated by sick fantasies about torture and sexual violation of prisoners... I.e. where all these discussions tend to lead.

I believe the maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years. I don't know whether they also allow for a situation in which you can get off after having served 2/3 of the sentence or something like that. That's currently the situation with the killer of Pim Fortuyn: he got 18 years in 2002, but it is quite possible that he will be released as soon as 2014. This is somewhat controversial, because many people feel that 12 years is not exactly an example of "paying your debt to society" for what is basically a coolly calculated political murder.

I'm not a big fan of "ZOMG harsh sentencing!!11" for all sorts of crimes. From a purely logical perspective of how we envision society, Norway's "soft" system is certainly better than the alternatives in most of the world. However, when someone calculatingly butchers 85 children with his own hand, I get the feeling that it would be very difficult to accept that someone who perpetrates this kind of thing should simply serve an X amount of years, and then it's over. In this case, it is extremely difficult to hold onto the ideal that a society can never punish anyone for anything, and that we must always strictly go for rehabilitation.

For cases like this, I do have the idea that it's better to allow for life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for extreme cases like mass murder, murder of a terrorist nature, etc. But it's a difficult decision to make. What complicates this is that it is almost impossible to reasonably expect a society to allow people like Anders or Volkert back into the fold after having served 12 years or so. You would then have to protect the person for the rest of his life, move him out of the country or whatever, meaning that society has to pay for the protection of a killer. You have to wonder how desirable that is.

[Rss]

Ruthless interrogation to expose his contacts and lifer in hard labor.

[RemoveYourChains]

And why doesn't murder "pervert the psyche of society"?

It's a question of competing values.

The need to sufficiently give disincentive to reactionary attempts to impose their agenda upon society outweighs the moral damage of executing such persons. While the "disincentive" argument for capital punishment is usually misplaced (as it is applied to crimes of passion, desperation, or insanity), it is not in situations like this.

OTOH quartering people, or other such things, doesn't pay out well enough to be justified.

The point in "punishing" criminals (beyond their reformation, and casting aside sadistic conceptions of retribution) is in part social - to make a given act "not worthwhile."

A blood soaked attempt to destabilize society (ie. taking the 93 lives and doing grave danger to public space in a politically motivated attack) is sufficient grounds for more extreme consequences.

This isn't "murder" - it's sufficient retaliation, which is wholly necessary in such circumstances.

[RemoveYourChains]

The deterrent argument (the only one with weight) is empirically fallacious.

The deterrence argument is usually false - and for specific reasons.

Namely, individuals who commit crimes either...

a) don't think they'll be caught (so penalties don't occur to them)
b) commit said crimes in a state of irrational passion (so are not even thinking of the penalties)
c) are mentally deranged such that penalties do not occur to them.

However, this can be said of the deterrence value of all punitive measures, not simply capital punishment.

That said - the situation of conspiratorial crimes like this is another matter entirely. The concern being that if one could calculate that you can kill a hundred people and receive state-sponsored room & board for the rest of your life as a consequence, it could make such schemes quite attractive to certain elements in society. Especially if they have conceits that they are the "vanguard" of a reactionary-nationalist movement looking to overthrow civil society (with perhaps even the conceit that should "the movement" succeed, they will be emancipated...regarded as "heroes" even.)

I also have to question your anthropology. You seem to confuse the material causes for why a person turns out as they do ("cause and effect"), with a lack of need to contend with such persons as they are/have become. Put another way - just because there are reasons for someone being an @sshole, doesn't make them any less an @sshole. It only removes some of the emotional sting, and gives us the ability to find more constructive ways of preventing such persons from occurring to begin with.

[Demogorgon]

There's nothing humane about prison systems which are loosely organized and which release prisoners like the sociopath Vikernes for weekend, and there's also nothing humane about risking that this walking danger of a man be released when still capable of organizing or carrying out such acts.You will note that Vikernes has been a free man for several years now and has not done any harm to anybody since his release. I would also point out that since being released he has produced some pretty wonderful music, showing even cases like him can go on to be of benefit to society.

Furthermore this man is not going to be released while still a danger. As has been pointed out, upon competing his sentence he will be placed in preventative detention and won't be leaving that unless he can show himself to be an extremely reformed man. That is the system most of the victims believed in. It is pretty horrible that some people prefer the vision of the right wing extremist here.

[Ravachol]

Pffft honestly, one would expect at least on here people would realize that this guy, however fucked up, is a product of the functioning of class society. Don't get me wrong I couldn't care less what happens to the fucker, I hope he dies an agonizingly slow death, but people on here arguing for, ironically, social-conservative 'stronger prisons, longer scentences' seem to be drawn into these arguments purely based on emotional grounds while when the discussion is about scentences for rapists everybody seems to realize tackeling the social basis for rape ie. the treatment of people as objects for individual gratification is what needs to be done. Again, don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less if a rapist gets kneecapped but it isn't the task of the revolutionary left to argue for this or that measure within the very social framework that gives rise to the problem. Sure, retribution certainly has it's place here but that's way different from institutionalised forms of 'justice' as we conceive them under class society. The answer to this, like the answer to almost all social ills, is the destruction of class society and all fucked up shit it produces.

[Thirsty Crow]

Still, nobody here should support the death penalty, communists should see something wrong about giving the state the right to end lives. I would have thought that a place like RevLeft was mature enough to not produce stupid revenge fantasy threads like these.
Forget about the death penalty for a second here.
What is utterly shocking to me is to see just how many people on this board would support forced labour institutions within a capitalist society, which tells me that they know very little about politics based on class struggle. People, c'mon, is it so hard to see how would the ruling class benefit immensly from such brutal exploitation of those vulnerable sections which are prone to criminal activity because of their material conditions of existence?


You will note that Vikernes has been a free man for several years now and has not done any harm to anybody since his release.Yes, this is true.
But it's also true that he has been caught during one of those weekends fleeing in a car loaded with weapons. Makes me think, actually.


I would also point out that since being released he has produced some pretty wonderful music, showing even cases like him can go on to be of benefit to society.His music is not of benefit to society, but rather to a tiny group within it.
Personally, I enjoy the broad genre very much, but can't stand the stuff he makes (and there's not a hint of bias based on politics in this personal assessment).


Furthermore this man is not going to be released while still a danger. As has been pointed out, upon competing his sentence he will be placed in preventative detention and won't be leaving that unless he can show himself to be an extremely reformed man. That is the system most of the victims believed in. It is pretty horrible that some people prefer the vision of the right wing extremist here.

What exactly constitutes this preventative detention?

Also, I don't think it's fair to accuse people who'd support life in prison for this guy for upholding the vision of right wing extremists.

[La Comédie Noire]

Give him the mandatory 21 years in prison and see how he does. I have a feeling after what he did, prison is the safest place for him in Norway.

[Demogorgon]

Yes, this is true.
But it's also true that he has been caught during one of those weekends fleeing in a car loaded with weapons. Makes me think, actually.
True, and he got extra time added onto his sentence for that. Weekend releases towards the end of a sentence are pretty common across the world, indeed they are one of the best ways to ease a long term prisoner back into society. Most do not abuse that. Vikernes did and soon knew all about it when he was removed from minimum security prison and had time added to his sentence.


His music is not of benefit to society, but rather to a tiny group within it.
Personally, I enjoy the broad genre very much, but can't stand the stuff he makes (and there's not a hint of bias based on politics in this personal assessment).
We don't need to get into a debate on whether his music is good or not, I think it is brilliant and Fallen is perhaps his best album, but that is besides the point. The point is he has gone on to do something that has brought pleasure to a not inconsiderable number of people and hence has proven himself a productive member of society. Considerably more productive than he was when he was in prison and whiled away his time with racist diatribes. He seems to me a good example of the Norwegian system succeeding.


What exactly constitutes this preventative detention? As I understand it, somebody who has completed a lengthy sentence and is still considered a danger can have a court order be made that they remain in custody. Their legal status will change so that they are now being imprisoned for societies protection rather than as punishment and as such will gain more privileges within prison (relaxed rules on contraband for instance), they will not be getting out however.


Also, I don't think it's fair to accuse people who'd support life in prison for this guy for upholding the vision of right wing extremists.
What I am saying is that what this man wanted was to make Norway more conservative and he killed a lot of people whom he saw as an obstacle to this. By calling for Norway to therefore adopt a more conservative criminal justice policy, people are effectively siding with him.

[Enragé]

gather all next of kin of the victims, let them stand in a circle, put the fucker in the middle, see what happens.

[~Spectre]

Out of genuine curiosity and spirit of dialogue, could you extrapolate on what you mean by "social conservatism" in this instance?

It's more than social conservatism. It's reactionary.

You guys are calling for a punishment that was drafted in a pool of totalitarianism. The death penalty implies a slave like relationship between the individual and the state. To allow the state to kill a person who is no longer a threat, is literally the political theory of feudal monarchs.

Modern society has literally no need for such things.

[~Spectre]

Well that "we" doesn't include me. I generally don't support capital punishment when there is a possibility of keeping those who are a danger to society in some form of incarceration - but in cases where someone may be making a calculation that long-term/life imprisonment might be a worthwhile price to pay for imposing themselves so heinously on society at large, a severe penalty (short of torture, which perverts the psyche of society) is definitely practical.


That's a remarkably weak argument. "Intimidation is good...but we'll stop short of torture!!!" Why? Just because it's inconvenient for your argument. Logically if "torture" perverts the psyche of society, so does execution.

Fun fact: Every country in the world that currently has the death penalty, also tortures political enemies!!!

Moreover, most people who do such things don't plan on being caught alive anyway.

[ZeroNowhere]

gather all next of kin of the victims, let them stand in a circle, put the fucker in the middle, see what happens.
Consider your origin.

[~Spectre]

Why the fuck do you guys care what happens to him?

The death penalty doesn't go away with him. When you set up such mechanisms, they normally don't go away without claiming large amounts of blood.

Living in the U.S., I'm sure that some truly despicable men have been killed by the death penalty. I'm equally sure that some innocent people have been strung up from nooses, sat in electric chairs, and spent the last few horrifying minutes of their lives being injected with poison before an audience.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

As I understand it, somebody who has completed a lengthy sentence and is still considered a danger can have a court order be made that they remain in custody. Their legal status will change so that they are now being imprisoned for societies protection rather than as punishment and as such will gain more privileges within prison (relaxed rules on contraband for instance), they will not be getting out however.


Indeed, there are for example some prisoners here in Sweden who, though "life sentence" is generally 16 years and one has a right to appeal after 8, have failed to prove they would not be a threat if let out, and indeed there are those who have served in excess of 40 years.

The strange U.S. perception of claiming insanity to get out of serving jail time is also false. On average, people sentenced for similar crimes but successfully claiming insanity and grave mental disorder stay incarcerated twice as long as those in regular jail.

[CommunityBeliever]

Eliminate class society and all of its products, including this criminal.

[CHE with an AK]

the poor steal because they are poor, not because they are "bad".
Although I agree with this sentiment, I am not sure material conditions apply to all crimes. That seems to eliminate the potential for a defective mind from the outset. In this guys case, he was well educated and from an upper class background. When you factor in all of the World’s population, he probably materially lived better than 90 % of them. Yet he believed he was justified in killing 93 people in order to prevent any “darker skinned” people from other countries from migrating to Norway to share in the nation’s development and social programs.




RemoveYourChains has at least provided a somewhat decent argument for executing him
I agree. He has laid out an array of strong arguments in my opinion. Just the type of thing I hoped to gain from this thread.





Why the fuck do you guys care what happens to him?
I wouldn’t say that I particularly “care” (as in it will affect my life), however this is a discussion board. Thus, I opened up a discussion on the issue in the hopes that members may gain through dialogue (which I have).





He believes in a more conservative society with harsher punishment. His victims for the most part would have supported Norway's more humane justice system. Are you going to respond to his crimes by stating he was right and they were wrong?
Although I favor execution in this instance, this to me is the strongest argument against it. The way you phrased it is a powerful way to think about the issue.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Would the present day political and economic climate be considered "normal times" in your estimation?

'Peace time', I should have said.

And by social conservatism I was referring to your support for reactive measures like capital punishment, which do not help bring the number of crimes committed down, do not act as a deterrent and do not tackle the causes of crime.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

What "rights" are you referring to?

I'm hoping you're not making a "natural rights" argument. Sure sounds like it.

I'm relieved that you're hoping for me, comrade.

I was referring more to the right of freedom from retributive death, especially carried out by the state.

[~Spectre]

Eliminate class society and all of its products, including this criminal.

Now, if crimes observed on a great scale thus show, in their amount and their classification, the regularity of physical phenomena — if as Mr. Quételet remarks, “it would be difficult to decide in respect to which of the two” (the physical world and the social system) “the acting causes produce their effect with the utmost regularity” — is there not a necessity for deeply reflecting upon an alteration of the system that breeds these crimes, instead of glorifying the hangman who executes a lot of criminals to make room only for the supply of new ones?
-Karl Marx

[~Spectre]

I agree. He has laid out an array of strong arguments in my opinion. Just the type of thing I hoped to gain from this thread.

I must have missed his strong argument. All I'm seeing is alleged Marxists trying to argue that the way to stop systematic outbursts of violence in a capitalist society is for the capitalists to learn how to kill more selectively.

Seems like a bunch of reactionary mysticism. I.e. The way I stop X from committing a crime is by human sacrificing Y.

It's barely removed from magic spells.

[Bardo]

Execution is murder and prison labor is slave labor. He deserves both, but ultimately I would stick him in a cell for the rest of his life. Maybe there are some comrades sitting in a Norway prison somewhere that wouldnt mind keeping him company.

[CHE with an AK]

In this case, it is extremely difficult to hold onto the ideal that a society can never punish anyone for anything, and that we must always strictly go for rehabilitation ...
I agree. For instance, if you adhere to Marxist principles of class struggle (as I do) and armed revolution for instance, then in effect along with overturning the oppressive relations of capitalism – you are also “punish”ing the capitalists for their role in continuing to perpetuate the system. I’m just curious when it philosophically becomes ok to punish with violence in the minds of most on the left?

As Lenin said, “Pacifism, the preaching of peace in the abstract, is one of the means of duping the working class.”





You would then have to protect the person for the rest of his life, move him out of the country or whatever, meaning that society has to pay for the protection of a killer. You have to wonder how desirable that is.
Well, right now adding insult to injury, the families of the victims will in effect be paying for his room and board for the next 21 years at least. Thus, you have to ask if that is justice? That we allow someone like him to kill 93 people and basically be given a free ride for the rest of his life, to lounge around and watch TV in his prison cell. Making matters even worse, is that he may live or eat better than some impoverished Norwegians while in prison. For instance, lets just say in a weird hypothetical, 95 % of society decided to commit murder – would it be the job of the remaining 5 % to pay for the continued upkeep in prison of the 95%?





The concern being that if one could calculate that you can kill a hundred people and receive state-sponsored room & board for the rest of your life as a consequence, it could make such schemes quite attractive to certain elements in society.
I agree. If some of his deranged right-wingers see that he only serves 14 years, what is to stop them from trying the same? It also seems irrational to say that heavier punishment makes no effect on behavior. For instance, if I knew that I could walk out of the grocery store today without paying for anything, and that if caught the punishment would be a hug from the grocer, I would do it every time. However, if I knew the punishment was decapitation, I would never contemplate it unless I was literally starving to death.





Pffft honestly, one would expect at least on here people would realize that this guy, however fucked up, is a product of the functioning of class society ...
And just how is that? What class relations created his actions? And if those exist, then shouldn’t there be more of him in Norway? Moreover, if World communism ever prevailed, are you saying that you would no longer have mentally deranged people like this? Because I would contend that even a classless system would still have sociopaths.





I have a feeling after what he did, prison is the safest place for him in Norway.
As do I. But that begs the question of whether it is now Norway’s responsibility to keep him safe. For instance, if they merely released him tomorrow back into society, I am sure that he would be killed by someone for his deeds. So should Norway be responsible from protecting him from the masses, for his crimes against the masses?





It's more than social conservatism. It's reactionary ...
Is all violence “reactionary” Is there not such a thing as revolutionary violence? Because I would contend that you can have righteous violence in the cause of destroying capitalism, and since it is pretty clear that this asshole is against the class struggle, then why wait till the red flags are raised over the land to eliminate him?

Moreover, nearly all notable historical leftist leaders have utilized violence as a tool. For instance, I have no doubt that Lenin would have this guy executed tomorrow? Are you advocating for a completely passive revolutionary left? Because to me that is like wrestling a bear with the tactic of playing dead.





'Peace time', I should have said.
See I guess that is where we disagree, as I would contend that a class war is always being waged against the workers – and that revolutionary laws and values should be applicable at all times until capitalism is destroyed.

[~Spectre]

Is all violence “reactionary” Is there not such a thing as revolutionary violence? Because I would contend that you can have righteous violence in the cause of destroying capitalism, and since it is pretty clear that this asshole is against the class struggle, then why wait till the red flags are raised over the land to eliminate him?

So a capitalist state executing this man is "revolutionary violence"? :laugh::laugh:

What's more, not all of his want to "eliminate" people either before or after 'the revolution'. I'm pretty sure you're just some troll trying to make a parody of authoritarian "marxists" at this point.


Moreover, nearly all notable historical leftist leaders have utilized violence as a tool.


I'm not one for really giving a fuck what any "leader" thinks, but in such an argument I'd side with this guy:

Now, what a state of society is that, which knows of no better Instrument for its own defense than the hangman, and which proclaims through the “leading journal of the world” its own brutality as eternal law?
-Karl Marx

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

"See I guess that is where we disagree, as I would contend that a class war is always being waged against the workers – and that revolutionary laws and values should be applicable at all times until capitalism is destroyed." - Che with an AK

Simple question then. What is revolutionary about giving the Capitalist state the power to execute someone?

[CHE with an AK]

So a capitalist state executing this man is "revolutionary violence"?
Not exactly, no. But if you believe in a perpetual state of revolution against capitalism, and that the revolution against it doesn’t have an on or off switch, then yes – some of the violence committed now to bring down capitalism would be revolutionary violence. As for the “state”, Norway is at least a quasi-social-democracy with some aspects of socialism - that is far more egalitarian than most of the world, and so I would be more comfortable with them executing a right-wing reactionary, than say Saudi Arabia.






What's more, not all of his want to "eliminate" people either before or after 'the revolution'.

Well then what do you do with vanquished oligarchs and their minions who violently resist? Try to sit them down and nicely explain to them why they are wrong, and if that doesn’t work host them in a all-expenses paid country club as to not make their incarceration to uncomfortable?

Would you have just asked Maria Antoinette politely for a little more “cake”?





I'm pretty sure you're just some troll trying to make a parody of authoritarian "marxists" at this point.

Fuck you, I’m not some troll, although I guess my views may make me an “authoritarian Marxist” – although I would contend that I am just a regular Marxist and that something began to happen in the 1960’s-1970’s to the present - where some Marxists went from Molotov cocktail throwing militants who understood Mao’s dictum that “revolution is not a dinner party”, to peace and love vegans advocating for mandatory yoga. Maybe it was all the pot?

In my view, this is why the “rev”olutionary left has been in decline, and capitalism has been becoming even more entrenched. The vultures of capitalism are proverbially fighting with baseball bats and knives, while some of the left want to counter them by hugging them to death.

[ZeroNowhere]

Why the fuck do you guys care what happens to him?
Nihil humani a me alienum puto.

[CommunityBeliever]

Simple question then. What is revolutionary about giving the Capitalist state the power to execute someone?

Don't they already have that power :confused:

[piet11111]

Easy this man is a clear danger that would gladly repeat his actions as a threat to society he should be executed to prevent him from ever being able to do this again.

[~Spectre]

some of the violence committed now to bring down capitalism would be revolutionary violence.

Executing this man will bring down capitalism? :rolleyes:

Actually, don't bother answering, you're either a troll or an idiot:


As for the “state”, Norway is at least a quasi-social-democracy with some aspects of socialism

"Fuck you, I’m not some troll"
:laugh:


Would you have just asked Maria Antoinette politely for a little more “cake”?

"Fuck you, I’m not some troll"



where some Marxists went from Molotov cocktail throwing militants who understood Mao’s dictum that “revolution is not a dinner party”, to peace and love vegans advocating for mandatory yoga. Maybe it was all the pot? In my view, this is why the “rev”olutionary left has been in decline, and capitalism has been becoming even more entrenched.

And here we have in a nutshell the type of person that "thinks" the death penalty is a good idea. A "revolutionary" who bemoans the defeat of "the left" because of less "molotov throwing militants" and less "executions" by "socialist Norway". IF ONLY WE'D HAVE LISTENED TO *INSERT YOUR FAVORITE AUTHORITARIAN HERE*, then everyone could be socialist like Norway!

"The revolution is not a dinner party" - It's executions by capitalists and molotovs. The working class need not apply.

[Coggeh]

I understand why people are angry. I am angry too. We must learn from this, we must increase our awareness of the far right throughout Europe and put them down wherever they may be. However no matter how angry we are we cannot support capital punishment. Not only is it immoral and useless but its a too easy way out. I voted for life imprisonment but now even regretting that. The fact he can't be rehabilitated is a condemnation on the prison system itself and not on individuals. I would say 40 years but depending on rehabilitation he should be released earlier.

Rehabilitation doesn't mean the changing of his views or stop him writing that garbage but show a real change in his attitude towards attacks or crimes same as with any other murder case.

Also this is a condemnation on the Norway gun laws which people can very easily get guns. This is especially dangerous when far right nut bags can get them in a matter of days of paying for them.

[Coggeh]

Easy this man is a clear danger that would gladly repeat his actions as a threat to society he should be executed to prevent him from ever being able to do this again.
Bullshit. What about other murders? we have constantly been the strongest critics of capital punishment or even the argument that someone has to be kept in jail for their lives because they "can't change". That shouldn't change just because its a far right scumbag this time.

[Desperado]

It's a question of competing values.

The need to sufficiently give disincentive to reactionary attempts to impose their agenda upon society outweighs the moral damage of executing such persons. While the "disincentive" argument for capital punishment is usually misplaced (as it is applied to crimes of passion, desperation, or insanity), it is not in situations like this.

I understand your rationale, but do you have a source backing up your claim of it as an effective disincentive? Besides, I would most certainly call this a crime of insanity.


OTOH quartering people, or other such things, doesn't pay out well enough to be justified. Again, source. I don't see how you're possibly weighing up statistics showing this.



I also have to question your anthropology.

You've misinterpreted my anthropology.


You seem to confuse the material causes for why a person turns out as they do ("cause and effect"), with a lack of need to contend with such persons as they are/have become. Put another way - just because there are reasons for someone being an @sshole, doesn't make them any less an @sshole. It only removes some of the emotional sting, and gives us the ability to find more constructive ways of preventing such persons from occurring to begin with.No - I understand your lesser evil rationale, I just question your massive lack of statistics and how you are arriving at these conclusions. Hence why I said the deterrence argument is the only one of any weight - it's just not empirically proven. If you can provide the statistical evidence that the death penalty would lessen the number of murders (excluding those which you say it would not affect) then I will change my mind*.

*Though naturally not on whether a capitalist state with it's corrupt judiciary should be given said powers (I assume we ignore this with the OP's "ideally").

[piet11111]

Bullshit. What about other murders? we have constantly been the strongest critics of capital punishment or even the argument that someone has to be kept in jail for their lives because they "can't change". That shouldn't change just because its a far right scumbag this time.


Not every murder is as bad as this one say a robbery that got out of hand is clearly not a murder that is as likely to be repeated.
Clearly is rehabilitation is an option then it should be done.

But this guy planned and prepared for this probably for years out of pure hatred and he is extremely likely to repeat this if given the chance and i do not believe this guy would ever want to change.

Clearly the need to protect society outweighs the value of this scumbags life.

[Delenda Carthago]

Well good then, if the concept of the "ideal" only exists in the minds of idealists, you must be supporting forced labour in a prison system within capitalist class rule. That's good to know.

And what about your lack of calling for the guy's death? RemoveYourChains has at least provided a somewhat decent argument for executing him (though I don't buy it), but you on the other hand indirectly support forced labour in capitalism, which is totally deranged.
Arent we talkin about his punishment on a socialist society?

[Desperado]

Easy this man is a clear danger that would gladly repeat his actions as a threat to society he should be executed to prevent him from ever being able to do this again.

Do you think the probability of him escaping prison are that high? And even if, shouldn't the imperative be better prisons?

[Chris]

Ideally? Forced labour. SOMEONE has to expand the railway to connect the North-South. And the railways are public owned.

[Desperado]

Although I agree with this sentiment, I am not sure material conditions apply to all crimes. That seems to eliminate the potential for a defective mind from the outset. In this guys case, he was well educated and from an upper class background. When you factor in all of the World’s population, he probably materially lived better than 90 % of them. Yet he believed he was justified in killing 93 people in order to prevent any “darker skinned” people from other countries from migrating to Norway to share in the nation’s development and social programs.

Poverty was just one example all leftists understand. Everything we do is determined by material conditions - environment (class society, upbringing - whatever) and genes, so ideas of blame for the sake of blame - punishment for the sake of punishment - are illogical. You do not punish a volcano for destroying a town as it would change nothing.

[~Spectre]

If you can provide the statistical evidence that the death penalty would lessen the number of murders (excluding those which you say it would not affect) then I will change my mind*.


He can't. No such evidence exists. It's literally unprovable, and moreoever it defies common sense.

Do you think this guy went out bombing and shooting thinking "It's ok I'll just be put in jail?", or is it more likely that he went out ready to die/planning on escaping.

People historically have taken up arms against even the harshest governments.

The only real "deterrence" it seems to provide seems to be a deterrence against convictions if used excessively. When England had the bloody code- making even minor offenses punishable by death-, not only did people still commit those crimes, but jurors stopped convicting, and even the landowners stopped pressing charges oftentimes.

I'm glad he's so hung up on the deterrence factor though. At least he's being honest. That's what the creators of the death penalty had in mind too. Preservation of power via intimidation and terror.

[piet11111]

Do you think the probability of him escaping prison are that high? And even if, shouldn't the imperative be better prisons?

No but i consider the possibility of safe release into society at zero so why put him i a cage for the rest of his life while the imo humane thing to do would be to put him down like the rabid dog he is.

[Geiseric]

I agree, except I think brain surgery and/or specially-manufactured drugs could help in the rehabilitation, to think about it slightly less than ideally. Some just need a little bit more help, don't they?

Voted other.
(since we're speaking of this "ideally"... wouldn't it be great if we could manufacture a drug to turn people into communists?)

That's a terrible idea. Ever seen Clockwork Orange?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I find it hard to imagine that a person who has spent so much time and effort into calculating this atrocity could be rehabilitated, becoming a useful member of society. No matter what I think should happen to him, his liberty would be breached, as his actions violated one of my most valued principles: one's freedom ends where another person's begins. This guy violated that principle and murdered 90+ innocent individuals - the most libertarian way I can think to deal with him is to isolate him indefinitely from society, under constant observation. The moralist in me would like to put a bullet between his eyes, but why should he be martyred?

Your freedom ends where another person's begins.

[Desperado]

No but i consider the possibility of safe release into society at zero so why put him i a cage for the rest of his life while the imo humane thing to do would be to put him down like the rabid dog he is.

Humane would be to let him decide and try to allow him to find some meaning and happiness in his life as is possible without endangering others freedom.


"humane thing" ... "the rabid dog he is"

...

[CHE with an AK]

All I'm seeing is alleged Marxists trying to argue
Ah yes, the purity test? When will my show trial be?

It is amazing how defanged and “soft” some of the so called revolutionary left has become. If it makes you feel better, you can suppose that instead of shooting 90 leftist teenagers, he illegally hunted 3 endangered transgender dolphins while cutting down a rare 100 year old sequoia tree. :rolleyes:





Executing this man will bring down capitalism?
No, but he has declared war on those who he perceives spreading “culturally Marxist” ideas, and desires to see a fascistic right-wing whites-only regime take power, so how long should the state of Norway wait to fire back? He wants to erase all of the social progress that Norway has made thus far, and stunt the growth of the class consciousness necessary for a class revolution – he’s already on the “battlefield” and shooting teenagers, so why let him call “Sorry, I’m safe on base” as soon as the SWAT team shows up? If you wouldn’t have minded if one of those teens shot him while on the island, is it that much of a difference for the police to shoot him now?






Actually, don't bother answering, you're either a troll or an idiot:
There is a Spectre haunting this thread, and it is that you’re a dick.

[piet11111]

Humane would be to let him decide and try to allow him to find some meaning and happiness in his life as is possible without endangering others freedom.



...

We already know how he intends to make his life "meaningful" through his actions.

Society needs to be protected from individuals like him by permanently removing him from this earth.
I understand your desire to rehabilitate everyone but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and people so violent and cold blooded as this man are simply not worth the risk of a failed rehabilitation.

[Cencus]

My gut reaction is to say kill the fucker or make him suffer a lot, but what this guy has done is so beyond my understanding that I'm left with no option than to connsider him to be mentally ill in some way, and that leaves only one choice; long term psychiatric care.

[ZeroNowhere]

...

The mystery of this revealed mystery is Hegel’s penal theory. According to Hegel, the criminal in his punishment passes sentence on himself. Gans developed this theory at greater length. In Hegel this is the speculative disguise of the old jus talionis [the right of retaliation-an eye for an eye], which Kant expounded as the only juridical penal theory. For Hegel, self-judgment of the criminal remains a mere “Idea”, a mere speculative interpretation of the current empirical punishments for criminals. He thus leaves the mode of application to the respective stage of development of the state, i.e., he leaves punishment as it is. Precisely in that he shows himself more critical than his Critical echo. A penal theory which at the same time sees in the criminal the man can do so only in abstraction, in imagination, precisely because punishment, coercion, is contrary to human conduct. Moreover, this would be impossible to carry out. Purely subjective arbitrariness would take the place of the abstract law because it would always depend on the official, “honourable and decent” men to adapt the penalty to the individuality of the criminal. Plato long ago realised that the law must be one-sided and take no account of the individual.

The solution to this is clearly to see the criminal as a dog instead.

[CHE with an AK]

we must increase our awareness of the far right throughout Europe and put them down wherever they may be. However no matter how angry we are we cannot support capital punishment.
How do you suppose we “put them down” without using violence? Or do you just not like an elected state doing it?




whether a capitalist state with it's corrupt judiciary
Although I agree that the law is always perverted by the class interests behind it, in this case it seems pretty cut and dry that he planned the crime, did it, and confessed to doing it. It wouldn’t really take corruption to sentence him to death.




Not every murder is as bad as this one
Exactly. Just in the same way that you have manslaughter in cases where a drunk driver accidentally runs over a kid, and 1st degree murder for when a kidnapper takes a kid home and puts him in a wood chipper – in these cases you should almost have an additional designation for “community murder” with a sentence above and beyond 1st degree.




You do not punish a volcano for destroying a town as it would change nothing.
I’m not sure a volcano is the best metaphor as a volcano is in a fixed position and does not spread or try and propagate itself. This psycho committed this crime for propaganda purposes and in the hope that it would spur his ideology. A more apt metaphor might be a metastasizing cancel cell, do we try and quarantine the cancer to one part of the body in the hopes that we can medicate it to a manageable position, or do we cut it out completely?




why put him i a cage for the rest of his life while the imo humane thing to do would be to put him down like the rabid dog he is.
Silly piet, it is only humane to euthanize animals, like a horse with a broken leg, not deranged mass murderers with a broken mind (sarcasm).

[RemoveYourChains]

That's a remarkably weak argument. "Intimidation is good...but we'll stop short of torture!!!" Why? Just because it's inconvenient for your argument. Logically if "torture" perverts the psyche of society, so does execution.

There's a world of difference between putting a dog down and skinning it alive.


Fun fact: Every country in the world that currently has the death penalty, also tortures political enemies!!!

Doesn't demonstrate causality.

[RemoveYourChains]

I was referring more to the right of freedom from retributive death, especially carried out by the state.

You'd have to establish that the community has zero interest in pursuing capital punishment under any circumstances to assert this as a socially recognized "right."

[RemoveYourChains]

All I'm seeing is alleged Marxists trying to argue that the way to stop systematic outbursts of violence in a capitalist society is for the capitalists to learn how to kill more selectively.

This "alleged Marxist" doesn't buy into the either/or position some have taken on this topic. I highly doubt those posting in this thread who are in some wise supportive of capital sentences under specific circumstances are disinterested in attacking the problems of class, poverty, and ignorance which contribute to creating the more obscene forms of anti-social behavior.

However, it is utopian to pretend that one can contend with those who have already been malformed by material circumstance with good intentions or future improvements to social infrastructure.


Seems like a bunch of reactionary mysticism. I.e. The way I stop X from committing a crime is by human sacrificing Y.

I don't know you - but I know from my own inner experience, and having observed others, that punitive consequence (while certainly the route of last resort) is not without value in deterring anti-social behavior.


It's barely removed from magic spells.

Rhetoric.

[RemoveYourChains]

So a capitalist state executing this man is "revolutionary violence"? :laugh::laugh:

I think we're discussing this case in the abstract as well as in particular. At least that was the impression I was left with, given the sweeping condemnations of capital punishment I've been reading. I think the very fact that the question posed by the OP is directed toward revolutionary socialists on a forum called "RevLeft" implies we're imagining dealing with a crime like this under the watch of a (get this) revolutionary socialists.

Actually, it's more than implicit - the OP asked...


(1.) How should a "just" society handle someone who commits such an atrocious act?

(emphasis mine)

So unless you take "just society" to mean "capitalist hegemony", I think you're engaging in a grotesque misrepresentation of the views of myself and others here who take a position contrary to your own.


What's more, not all of his want to "eliminate" people either before or after 'the revolution'. I'm pretty sure you're just some troll trying to make a parody of authoritarian "marxists" at this point.

That's some pretty bold talk for having zero evidence to that effect.




I'm not one for really giving a fuck what any "leader" thinks, but in such an argument I'd side with this guy:

Now, what a state of society is that, which knows of no better Instrument for its own defense than the hangman, and which proclaims through the “leading journal of the world” its own brutality as eternal law?
-Karl Marx

Unfortunately you're misrepresenting the passage, and the position of those you're arguing with (though to be safe, I will say only with certainty my own position.) I wouldn't say there is "no better instrument" than capital punishment - or any other punitive measures - for dealing with crime. That would be the hateful position of the reactionaries. As I mentioned before, I don't think anyone here is proposing the noose/firing squad in lieu of taking strong measures to combat the root causes of criminality.

But alas - if one finds themselves with such persons nonetheless (or as a consequence of pre-revolutionary/early-post-revolutionary circumstances), to take capital punishment totally off the table is to participate in the same problematic thinking as pacifism in general.

[Coggeh]

No but i consider the possibility of safe release into society at zero so why put him i a cage for the rest of his life while the imo humane thing to do would be to put him down like the rabid dog he is.
How do we know that 30 years from now? you simply don't. I would say a life sentence that may be reduced if its the case the people who are responsible for rehabilitation deem him no longer a threat.

[Coggeh]

How do you suppose we “put them down” without using violence? Or do you just not like an elected state doing it?

By using the same methods we've always used? organized action in a united front against any fascist movement or WN's attempting to find a platform.

What do you mean elected state? bourgeois state? in which case they never would put down fascists. And in a socialist society i doubt that would be a problem except for the counter revolution.

[Coggeh]

We already know how he intends to make his life "meaningful" through his actions.

Society needs to be protected from individuals like him by permanently removing him from this earth.
I understand your desire to rehabilitate everyone but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and people so violent and cold blooded as this man are simply not worth the risk of a failed rehabilitation.
No. The needs don't. Just because there is a hysteria about releasing a person when psychiatrists etc all say there fine to be released doesn't mean we deny them there rights. This sh*t is constantly happening to formal convicted criminals such as paedophiles especially etc because of this stupid scaremongering among the media and elsewhere.

[khad]

My gut reaction is to say kill the fucker or make him suffer a lot, but what this guy has done is so beyond my understanding that I'm left with no option than to connsider him to be mentally ill in some way, and that leaves only one choice; long term psychiatric care.
Oh, come off it. He knew exactly what he was doing and was doing it for politically motivated reasons. This is someone who systematically rationalized his actions long before he did the deed.

Given the consistency and logic of his thought processes, it won't be hard for him to bullshit well-meaning utopian do-gooders into thinking that he has a mental illness so that he can secure early release. Hell, I know people who've done that to get out of the military, and they're nowhere near as well put together as this fucker is.

[eyedrop]

Just keep him from doing anything like that again. Keep your bloodthirst out of it.

[Desperado]

We already know how he intends to make his life "meaningful" through his actions.

In which case leave him in a prison, or if he so desires leave him to take his own life. He may be able to be changed, if not then prison is where he can stay.



Society needs to be protected from individuals like him by permanently removing him from this earth.
I understand your desire to rehabilitate everyone but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and people so violent and cold blooded as this man are simply not worth the risk of a failed rehabilitation.And I understand your concern for the greater good. But if the rehabilitation is a failure then he can stay in prison. In which case he is not a risk. He's not a demi-god who will eat the prison bars.




Although I agree that the law is always perverted by the class interests behind it, in this case it seems pretty cut and dry that he planned the crime, did it, and confessed to doing it. It wouldn’t really take corruption to sentence him to death.

Of course. But I am talking about the capitalist state having the power of execution generally - which I think we can all agree would be bad.



I’m not sure a volcano is the best metaphor as a volcano is in a fixed position and does not spread or try and propagate itself. This psycho committed this crime for propaganda purposes and in the hope that it would spur his ideology. A more apt metaphor might be a metastasizing cancel cell, do we try and quarantine the cancer to one part of the body in the hopes that we can medicate it to a manageable position, or do we cut it out completely?The volcano metaphor was to illustrate the futility of out-dated conservative ideas of blame.

But besides, I can't see how executing him would stop the spurring of his "ideology". If anything it could make him a martyr. But mass killings by right-wing psychos is hardly a cancer which I fear will spread and engulf all civilisation.

[Demogorgon]

Just keep him from doing anything like that again. Keep your bloodthirst out of it.
Yes, absolutely. As I keep saying there is no need to compound what happened by following the sort of policy he wants to see.

On another note, we are going to have to look at why this happened and that will have to go beyond taking a "law and order" approach to this man. We know he is on the far right, but rather than being a old fashioned Nazi it looks like he was on the more modern populist right that is being increasingly successful across Europe (and the US with the Tea Party of course). It is time for us to face up to just how dangerous right wing populism has become.

[MattShizzle]

I voted life in a hard labor camp. Make the rest of his life as bad as possible and make it something that benefits society. not just meaningless labor.

[LegendZ]

If we gave him 1 year in prison for every person he killed he'd be there for 90+ years. So i put life imprisonment since he won't last another 90 years. He intentionally did it and went back to make sure they were dead.

[piet11111]

The problem with rehabilitation is that we lack a device that makes a nice "ding" sound when he's ready.

So instead we will have to rely on a psychiatrists individual skill and hope he does not get suckered into believing this madman is rehabilitated before he actually is.

Well sorry but its not worth the risk.

[Dunk]

Only the affected community has the authority to answer this question.

[Ingraham Effingham]

He did so much to HURT the batshit cause that he believes in with all of his heart.

A perfect punishment would be to give him a front row seats in a prison for life, to the immense amount of blowback this is going to create on the world stage, ultimately (hopefully) heralding the end of this of this mindset.

Killing him would make him a martyr

[Optiow]

Capital punishment in any society is state sanctioned murder. As I don't believe it should be in place at all, I don't support these people screaming for him to be slaughtered. The state should not have power to do that.

I think he should be given a lifetime of hard labour. No parole for this guy. Make him work for the rest of his life as punishment for what he has done. He may not regret it after a year, five years, ten years. He may even last twenty or thirty years. But the longer he works, slaving day after day, being shunned by all good people in the world, there is a chance he will regret what he has done, and he may even become a better man. And even if he does not regret it, then he will be doing productive work for the populace instead of languishing in a prison cell or lying in a grave.

Killing him is both too easy and too wrong. Make him slave away the rest of his life, possibly being rehabilitated in the process, and possibly even set free if he is truly a better person.

[Cencus]

Oh, come off it. He knew exactly what he was doing and was doing it for politically motivated reasons. This is someone who systematically rationalized his actions long before he did the deed.

Oh no, you come off it, are you really saying that a sane rational human mind was behind the events on Friday? If that's the case then you have an even lower opinion of humanity than myself.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Oh, come off it. He knew exactly what he was doing and was doing it for politically motivated reasons. This is someone who systematically rationalized his actions long before he did the deed.

Given the consistency and logic of his thought processes, it won't be hard for him to bullshit well-meaning utopian do-gooders into thinking that he has a mental illness so that he can secure early release. Hell, I know people who've done that to get out of the military, and they're nowhere near as well put together as this fucker is.

He would probably end up locked away longer if he was. The military (supposedly) seeks to avoid taking in obviously unbalanced individuals, but if he was put into a mental health facility for what he has done, he is unlikely to get out quickly. As I mentioned earlier, the average time served is double (for a similar crime) for someone in a mental health facility as opposed to regular jail, here in Sweden, and the whole "getting off easy" by claiming insanity is something more typical of American courts.

[Tenka]

That's a terrible idea. Ever seen Clockwork Orange?
Terrible movie and irrelevant.
I also like the idea of forced labour, but not as a punishment; rather, he should be made to contribute to society to some extent as he is rehabilitated.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I also like the idea of forced labour

How do you wake up in the morning and call yourself a Socialist?

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I'm strongly opposed to cutting off one of his balls, because if you do that, then the terrorists have one...

[Green/Red]

He should be imprisoned for at least 50 years and released only if he is no longer a danger to the public.

[khad]

Oh no, you come off it, are you really saying that a sane rational human mind was behind the events on Friday? If that's the case then you have an even lower opinion of humanity than myself.
Soldiers do it all the time. Looks like someone lives in lala land.

[Forward Union]

Let's be very clear here. The first question we have to ask is, what does he want. Amongst other things, I suspect he wants fame, as well as a platform to present his manifesto and ideas. He has apparently asked for a press conference as well. It seems to me that he wants to be a some sort of a demagogue.

So he shouldn't be granted that. He should be locked away, given his human rights - food, a toilet, and a space to walk around. Maybe even a Rubik cube. And then be forgotten about forever. That would be a serious punishment for a nut case like this. If he's a really good boy then maybe they should let him wear a crusader costume or play Stronghold 3 when it comes out.

I do, by the way, believe he is rational. He provided 16 pages of prose and pseudo-academia, which, while being a terrible read and factually wrong and deeply confused, is still a rationale. You can't just dismiss terrorists or right wing extremists as mentally ill, he knew what he was doing. Though I have no doubt that his religious convictions provided an internal moral system that justified his actions in his own head.

[fionntan]

Give him fcuk all no platform no life.

[Forward Union]

Ignoring for a moment the fact that Norway doesn't have the death penalty. He would probably welcome the death sentence.


Give him fcuk all no platform no life.

fcuk?, it's a pretty expensive brand. Just some clothes from Primark will do.

[Olentzero]

Ignoring for a moment the fact that Norway doesn't have the death penalty. He would probably welcome the death sentence.Timothy McVeigh certainly did. Unless there's some other interpretation of why he handed the prison warden a handwritten version of W.E. Henley's Invictus (http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/invictus/) as his final statement.

I confess I don't know what should be done with him beyond immediately locking him up for the maximum sentence allowable by Norwegian law. That still gives society 21 years to try to figure the whole thing out.

What should not be done under any circumstances, however, is give the motherfucker a public forum for his opinions. I don't know when his trial is due to start but there has been some debate as to whether it should be public or not. As I understand it, he's ready to make a statement as to why he did it, and I'd put money down on it being a screed full of Islamophobia and neofascist venom. The courts should not be used as a public tribunal for such shit. No free speech for hate speech.

[Thirsty Crow]

I agree. He has laid out an array of strong arguments in my opinion. Just the type of thing I hoped to gain from this thread.

Huh, you conveniently misssed the part where I say I don't buy it? ;)

To reiterate my point from the very onset of the thread, now that I've seen the numbers on the poll: you people are seriously fucked up (advocates of forced labour), there's no way to put it nicely, sorry.



What should not be done under any circumstances, however, is give the motherfucker a public forum for his opinions. I don't know when his trial is due to start but there has been some debate as to whether it should be public or not. As I understand it, he's ready to make a statement as to why he did it, and I'd put money down on it being a screed full of Islamophobia and neofascist venom. The courts should not be used as a public tribunal for such shit. No free speech for hate speech.
This is probably the best proposition in the entire thread, since his whole act was premised upon getting as much airtime as possible for propagandizing. It would also be best if he was allowed no visitors for the whole course of his sentence.

[Rss]

Huh, you conveniently misssed the part where I say I don't buy it? ;)

To reiterate my point from the very onset of the thread, now that I've seen the numbers on the poll: you people are seriously fucked up (advocates of forced labour), there's no way to put it nicely, sorry.

Didn't you wish him to be raped/beaten in prison? Corrective labor with daily studies is much more humane.

[Thirsty Crow]

Didn't you wish him to be raped/beaten in prison? Corrective labor with daily studies is much more humane.
Show me where I stated any of this.
But sure, I know what I stated. And I stand by it since it's a hot, emotional topic, and responses should also be divided by their content, correponding to the loaded, emotionally ridden situation, and on the other hand, to a political, rational discussion. My personal wish has no bearing on what'd I advocate if I were in a position to participate in the decision making process with regard to the individual. And no, I didn't even privately wish for him to get raped since in no way would I condone such horrid acts.

Rationally and politically, I stand mostly by what I said, though I think Demogorgon made some valid points.
Also, I stand by what I stated about you forced labour lot. You don't have an ounce of class instinct and your politics are probably rotten to the core, judging by this symptom. It really shows when you interchange "humane sentences/corrective practices" for class politics which should unconditionally oppose forced labour for capitalists and their state.

[Rss]

Show me where I stated any of this.
But sure, I know what I stated. And I stand by it since it's a hot, emotional topic, and responses should also be divided by their content, correponding to the loaded, emotionally ridden situation, and on the other hand, to a political, rational discussion. My personal wish has no bearing on what'd I advocate if I were in a position to participate in the decision making process with regard to the individual. And no, I didn't even privately wish for him to get raped since in no way would I condone such horrid acts.

Rationally and politically, I stand mostly by what I said, though I think Demogorgon made some valid points.
Also, I stand by what I stated about you forced labour lot. You don't have an ounce of class instinct and your politics are probably rotten to the core, judging by this symptom. It really shows when you interchange "humane sentences/corrective practices" for class politics which should unconditionally oppose forced labour for capitalists and their state.

Fair enough. I did twist your wording in your post and I apologize for that. But material conditions are not always what we wish they would be. State of the class enemy persecuting person of one massmurdering class enemy isn't the optimal, but rather than let him rot in prison, he would do something for society for us to inherit.

[Red Future]

I'm surprised no one has noticed that the badge on his shoulder reads "Marxist Hunter" -pretty chilling.

[JustMovement]

First of all let me just say how incredibly sad it is that so many young people lost their lives. I hope that in time the families of those affected can find some peace.

As to the murderer: I think we have to look at the facts of this case specifically. Although I want to clarify, without getting to much into philosophy, that although I am a materialist, I do think people can be responsible for their actions.

This man was not afflicted by poverty growing up. We can assume that he received a good education. He was successful in his professional life. Perhaps he was not well adjusted, maybe he was alienated, but it appears that he did have some friends. It does not appear that he was a clinical sociopath, or have mental illness. His writings are not rambling and nonsensical, his "ideas" are coherent. And he killed 90 people in cold blood.

Personally I think the concept of punitive justice is part revenge and part redemption, and that the two are not opposing, but linked. If someone does to us something wrong, and we want to see them punished for it, I think that it is not necessarily some sadistic impulse whereby we enjoy someone elses misery, but it is the same impulse that pushes us to want to see good people rewarded. It is fairness. And I think it would be supremely unfair if this man walked out of jail in 17 or however many years.

In theory I think this man has put himself beyond the pale. If ending his life brought some measure of solace to the families hurt then I would see nothing wrong with it. The only reason I am opposed to it is that I think capital punishment (obviously particularly in current capitalist society, but I think even in a theoretical socialist one) is too fraught with the danger of a possible miscarriage of justice.

[Forward Union]

I'm surprised no one has noticed that the badge on his shoulder reads "Marxist Hunter" -pretty chilling.

Yea I was worried for a moment but then I realised that by Marxism he means "politics that aren't racist" and thought, well, at this rate, he probably has a long way to go before he gets to us.

[Olentzero]

This just in (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14270655):
The man who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin terror attacks in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, is due to make his first appearance in court.
The hearing will be held behind closed doors, the judge has ruled.
Good fucking call.

[Meridian]

This just in (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14270655):Good fucking call.

Yep, if it's anything this man wants it's to be heard. The biggest punishment for him would be to close him off from all publicity.

[Olentzero]

Not just him, though that in and of itself is good. Like I said earlier, the courts in general should not be used as a public tribunal for the kind of bigoted filth he wants to spew. Organizations like the EDL may be trying to distance themselves from him publicly, but it's pretty clear from his writings that he admires what they do and he took his cues from their politics. There's no room for their hate speech in public debate.

[Demogorgon]

I fear that some may be a little misguided here is wanting him silenced. While I don't want him to get the public forum he wants, I do wish for his political position to be made clear as I believe it vital that the populist right are not able to disassociate themselves from him. He acted in the context of the hateful political culture fueled by the Norwegian progress party in his own country as well as those abroad like Geert Wilders and the American Tea Party whom he appears to be most influenced by. They must be held responsible for pushing the hateful politics that was already causing considerable harm before this man took things to a whole new level. The public must be shown these groups in the worst possible light as the inspiration for one of Europe's worst terrorist attacks. I am worried that by smothering the political dimension to what he did, these groups are not going to be harmed the way they ought to be.

[Olentzero]

His political position has already been made clear - you'll note the 1,500-page manuscript that's been extensively quoted in this thread alone, as well as all the articles in the MSM that have linked to his postings about the EDL and such. He's had ample opportunity to spew his filth through any number of outlets.

What I object to is using the courts as a tribunal for propagating hate speech like his. Had it been an open trial, Breivik would have used the opportunity to rail against everything he hates and to publicly justify his terrorism. With the world as it is riled up against Islam thanks to the efforts of right-wing hack politicians and propaganda machines posing as news networks, the last thing we need is a mass murderer adding further fuel to the flames through official channels.

I don't want him silenced, but I sure as hell would like a world where ideas like Breivik's don't make sense anymore.

[CHE with an AK]

The first question we have to ask is, what does he want.
Why let him dictate the terms or have any bearing on the punishment? He could also be using reverse psychology i.e. "Please kill me and make a martyr" (when really, he'd be pissing his pants). I'd be comfortable calling his bluff.




given his human rights - food, a toilet, and a space to walk around.
So you don't think there is anything one can do to forfeit their "human rights"? To me, it was at the point where he stole the human rights from 90 innocent teenagers? Why give him something that he denied them? I would say that human rights come with some basic human responsibilities.




He would probably welcome the death sentence.
Well if the victims families would welcome it, the majority of Norway would welcome it, and he would welcome it - then killing him is a WIN/WIN for everyone. :)

[Comrade J]

Can we just ban everyone who voted for execution, because these people are pseudo-leftists if they agree with the state's right to execute people.

[eyedrop]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype][SIZE=3]Well if the victims families would welcome it, the majority of Norway would welcome it, and he would welcome it - then killing him is a WIN/WIN for everyone. :)

Can you just shut up? And stop speaking for the victims families who you know nothing about. It's fucking insulting.

People are opponents of the death penalty also when it's a horrible tragedy, not just when it's convenient.

[danyboy27]

Keep him locked up indifinitively to protect society and study the guy from all the angles.

he is more valuable alive than dead.

[Q]

As I gather the maximum sentence is 21 years in Norway, after which the judge can prolong it by another 5 years, twice. So, he'll be a free man again at the age of 63, at the latest.

If he'll also be a safe man, time will tell.

[coda]

I think he should be rehabilitated alone in Antarctica. Give him an ice pic and a fishing rod and that should keep him busy and out of trouble for awhile.

[piet11111]

Can we just ban everyone who voted for execution, because these people are pseudo-leftists if they agree with the state's right to execute people.

Well thought out counter argument :tt2:

[eyedrop]

A German newspaper article says: "Even in their deepest sorrow the Norwegians don't get hysterical. They resist the hate. It is amazing to see how politicians and the whole country reacts. They are sad to the deepest thread of their souls. They cry in dignity. But nobody swears to take revenge. Instead they want even more humanity and democracy. That is one of the most remarkable strengths of that little country."

[~Spectre]

No, but he has declared war on those who he perceives spreading “culturally Marxist” ideas

Apparently you and him both think that Norway is "socialist" and you and him both support the "Death Penalty". This guy could be your mate.

so how long should the state of Norway wait to fire back?


The State has already stepped in. He's in a cage. Done deal, next.

[~Spectre]

There's a world of difference between putting a dog down and skinning it alive.



There is a similarity though, in that thinking you should do either to a human is pretty fucked up.

I'm sure the serial skin-dog-alivers would think executing this guy is doubleplusgood.

[~Spectre]

This "alleged Marxist" doesn't buy into the either/or position some have taken on this topic. I highly doubt those posting in this thread who are in some wise supportive of capital sentences under specific circumstances are disinterested in attacking the problems of class, poverty, and ignorance which contribute to creating the more obscene forms of anti-social behavior.

Yes you are. You're putting forth that the reason these things occur is because the capitalists haven't sufficiently intimidated people enough. It's magic. That a human sacrifice will alter the behavior of those living and those to come (unless you demand perodic executions, just like the original autocrats did).



However, it is utopian to pretend that one can contend with those who have already been malformed by material circumstance with good intentions or future improvements to social infrastructure.

You can't lock them up? You should get out more. Moreover you've slipped back into contending that we should kill the insane.



I don't know you - but I know from my own inner experience, and having observed others, that punitive consequence (while certainly the route of last resort) is not without value in deterring anti-social behavior.

So you believe that this guy wouldn't have done this if Norway had the death penalty? That's your brilliant argument?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh



Rhetoric.

It's not rhetoric. It would be rhetoric to say that you're a class enemy for wanting to further arm capitalist states. Oh wait, that's not really rhetorical either, that's just true.

It's pretty rich to hear you complain about rhetoric, when you've yet to provide ANY sort of evidence for your claims.

[CHE with an AK]

Can we just ban everyone who voted for execution
Haha, a purge by the naïve utopian idealist liberals on a revolutionary leftist site … nice. :rolleyes:
Where is Uncle Joe when you need him? (half kidding)





these people are pseudo-leftists if they agree with the state's right to execute people.
I think that some users forget that everyone here isn’t a universally state-paranoid anarchist. The encircled (A) is third in order at the top left of the screen. “Leftism” has a broad range of philosophical strains – and I would contend that at least half of them (who I would call the “Hard Left”) reject parts of the bourgeoisie-inspired progressive and humanistic “Soft Left”. Some on the “left” care more about workers rights or violently overthrowing oligarchs, and others care more about saving the white spotted owl, banning plastic bags, and rehabilitating mass murderers.

But, that is inevitable when you have binary political divisions, and one of them contains both Mother Teresa & Mao Zedong.

[CommunityBeliever]

Can we just ban everyone who voted for execution, because these people are pseudo-leftists if they agree with the state's right to execute people.Can we just ban everyone here who expressed sadism?

Nobody should have to suffer, including this criminal. He should not be tortured or "drawn and quartered." The revenge game is just unmaterialist. As someone said before you wouldn't punish a volcano.

Putting him in a prison is not a good idea either, I heard some people on scumfront say that Norweigan prisons are actually rather nice and may be preferable to unemployment and suffering on the outside. Besides this, he may eventually manage to get out.

We shouldn't allow him the possibility to get out or to write more right-wing hate, so kill him and get it over with. Just put a bullet in his temple, that will be quick and painless.

I am not going to speculate as to what should be done in some "ideal society" where this is no longer capital punishment, because in such a society criminals like this won't arise in the first place.

[danyboy27]

I think that some users forget that everyone here isn’t a universally state-paranoid anarchist. The encircled (A) is third in order at the top left of the screen. “Leftism” has a broad range of philosophical strains – and I would contend that at least half of them (who I would call the “Hard Left”) reject parts of the bourgeoisie-inspired progressive and humanistic “Soft Left”. Some on the “left” care more about workers rights or violently overthrowing oligarchs, and others care more about saving the white spotted owl, banning plastic bags, and rehabilitating mass murderers.

But, that is inevitable when you have binary political divisions, and one of them contains both Mother Teresa & Mao Zedong.

YOu can be on the worker side and against death penality, not everyone here is a paranoid purgemonger like you, and there is nothing contradictory between opposing the death penality while advocating radical rebelion against capitalism.

[CHE with an AK]

"Even in their deepest sorrow the Norwegians don't get hysterical. They resist the hate ... But nobody swears to take revenge. Instead they want even more humanity and democracy.
This is admirable, even inspirational; Gandhi and Jesus would be proud – however, Robespierre, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Che, Sankara, and Ho Chi Minh etc would probably be rolling in their graves.

I’m not sure when the revolutionary left merged with the peacenik granola eating hippies, but I guess it’s already happened in parts of the World.




Apparently you and him both think that Norway is "socialist" and you and him both support the "Death Penalty". This guy could be your mate..
You’re an asshole, but you already knew that. :)

Maybe one day when you’re out of high school you will figure out that “socialism” has multiple definitions containing: Marxian socialism, Scientific socialism, Democratic socialism, Libertarian socialism, Market socialism, State socialism, Utopian socialism, Social democracy, Revolutionary socialism, Green socialism, Guild socialism, Agrarian socialism etc – and that I never said Norway was simply “socialist”. I said they had a quasi-socialist democracy (in the market & state socialist sense) and that I would trust their state more than I would a fascist or theocratic one for instance. There are a lot more checks and balances when it comes to executing a mass murderer in Norway, than say Yemen – and that is the point I was making. And yes, in comparison to the United States, Norway and Sweden have a range of policies that would more communitarian or “socialist” in the small “s” sense.





The State has already stepped in. He's in a cage.
So now he gets free room and board with laundry service inside an air conditioned and heated cell, with gym access and recreational options. No stress from bills, free food, and a television with free cable. All paid for in part by the parents of these Norwegian teenagers! Hell why wouldn’t every homeless person in Norway commit murder, as he will inevitable live better than some of them will. Maybe starving Somalians should hold up signs that say, “[please treat me like a Norwegian mass murderer]”.

[The Underdog]

9mm round to the head and be done with it.

[CHE with an AK]

Execution 21 %
Lifetime Labor Camp 25 %
Life imprisonment 29 %

... There is obviously disagreement at Revleft on the use of capital punishment, labor camps, and imprisonment. I don't know why some users here act outraged and shocked at the thought that some of us are ok with shooting people who shoot 80 leftist teenagers ???


The bull still charges at vegetarians.

[The Underdog]

... There is obviously disagreement at Revleft on the use of capital punishment, labor camps, and imprisonment. I don't know why some users here act outraged and shocked at the thought that some of us are ok with shooting people who shoot 80 leftist teenagers ???


I actually voted for the labour camp option, but, upon further contemplation, no, the gravity of the offence was too great.

An unceremonious, simple, swift execution would be more fitting in this relatively isolated instance.

[scarletghoul]

Ideally ? he should turn into an endless supply of ice cream which cures cancer and distributes itself to anyone who desires it.

[Ermo Kruus]

This has probably been mentioned before, but the guy will spend the rest of his life in prison/mental institutions. I don't know the details of Norwegian law, but he will be kept in custody and be continuously brought to trial when he has done his original sentence. The guys who wants him to receive death penalty, are the people who holds the same views as this man. Death penalty wouldn't mean anything, it would just mean that this man would simply disappear from existence and avoid any punishment. I want him to actually serve his penalty by having to spend the rest of his life locked up.

[The Underdog]

This has probably been mentioned before, but the guy will spend the rest of his life in prison/mental institutions. I don't know the details of Norwegian law, but he will be kept in custody and be continuously brought to trial when he has done his original sentence. The guys who wants him to receive death penalty, are the people who holds the same views as this man. Death penalty wouldn't mean anything, it would just mean that this man would simply disappear from existence and avoid any punishment. I want him to actually serve his penalty by having to spend the rest of his life locked up.

Yeah, locked up in his cushy heated room, with his TV, his X-Box, his three square meals a day, his comfy bed, et cetera. Norwegian prisons probably have swimming pools and tanning beds. Comforts that the proletariat of the Third World will never see, no matter how innocent, good, or hard-working they have been. From the sounds of things, this monster was a spoilt little baby, from a wealthy family, living the good life.

Seriously. Here I am, busting my arse for these pissant wages, when I could just get a one-way ticket to Norway and shoot some innocent kids...

:rolleyes:

[CommunityBeliever]

The Bull still charges at vegetarians.

Give the bull a fucking break please. Bulls don't go around cause counter revolutions.

Remember that some of us here are vegetarians and that doesn't make us "pussies" or anything like that.

[Psy]

This has probably been mentioned before, but the guy will spend the rest of his life in prison/mental institutions. I don't know the details of Norwegian law, but he will be kept in custody and be continuously brought to trial when he has done his original sentence. The guys who wants him to receive death penalty, are the people who holds the same views as this man. Death penalty wouldn't mean anything, it would just mean that this man would simply disappear from existence and avoid any punishment. I want him to actually serve his penalty by having to spend the rest of his life locked up.

The idea of the death penalty in this cause would be a deterrent to other fascists.

[Comrade J]

... There is obviously disagreement at Revleft on the use of capital punishment, labor camps, and imprisonment. I don't know why some users here act outraged and shocked at the thought that some of us are ok with shooting people who shoot 80 leftist teenagers ???

It's not that we are "outraged and shocked" at people wanting him dead, that is completely understandable. If you personally were to go to Norway and shoot him in the face, I'd say it's a job well done and perhaps bake you a nice pie.

What we actual leftists are arguing is that the state should not be able to execute people. It's an invalid institution with powers that none of us here ever chose, we were just born into it. If you don't condemn capital punishment in all cases, and just say "ah yeah it's ok if they kill this guy cause he's a dick", then the state's power over its citizens will only increase, and one day it will be a comrade of ours facing being murdered by the state, and we won't be able to say shit. Furthermore, as a side note, it would simply be a 'martydom' of sorts for him.

25 people voting that he should be executed by the state, and you call yourselfs communists and anarchists? :lol: Shameful fucking shit.

[brigadista]

The idea of the death penalty in this cause would be a deterrent to other fascists.

i doubt that

[tobbinator]

He should be sent to a labour camp and generally ignored by the media from then. Execution would make him a martyr and possibly inspire other people to act that way.

He should be ignored by the media, though his victims remembered. If he gets attention, that's what he would have wanted, he would have done this to be known and for his views to be out there and to make an impact on the media. If he were to be ignored and imprisoned or sent to a labour camp, his goals of the attack will not have been satisfied, leaving him with nothing.

[~Spectre]

This is admirable, even inspirational; Gandhi and Jesus would be proud – however, Robespierre, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Che, Sankara, and Ho Chi Minh etc would probably be rolling in their graves.

Marx was against the death penalty, as you've already been taught. As for your motley assortment of mass murders, state capitalists and dictators...so what?


I’m not sure when the revolutionary left merged with the peacenik granola eating hippies, but I guess it’s already happened in parts of the World.


This particular retort wasn't funny the first 10 times you used it. What IS funny is a guy who calls himself a "Guevarist" and makes his username about Aks, trying to stereotype others.

I can't wait until you shave that beard off bro and eventually settle down in some office cubicle, laughing at those days where you'd walk around with a beret, reading your Jon Lee Anderson Che biography at starbucks. KEEP FIGHTING MAN!:thumbup1:



I said they had a quasi-socialist democracy (in the market & state socialist sense) and that I would trust their state more than I would a fascist or theocratic one for instance. There are a lot more checks and balances when it comes to executing a mass murderer in Norway, than say Yemen – and that is the point I was making. And yes, in comparison to the United States, Norway and Sweden have a range of policies that would more communitarian or “socialist” in the small “s” sense.

:laugh: So a government that takes an active role in the NATO bombing of Libya, and maintains forces in the occupation of Afghanistan, is to be trusted more because they're "communitarian" because their capitalists provide greater mitigating social safety nets than Iran or Yemen.

Yes that sounds about as moronic as the stuff preached by this shooter. Everything about you betrays that you're a fucking poseur. "Death Penalty is good for us and Norway, an active fighter in Nato is our friend!!". Fuck off you damn reactionary.



All paid for in part by the parents of these Norwegian teenagers! Hell why wouldn’t every homeless person in Norway commit murder, as he will inevitable live better than some of them will. Maybe starving Somalians should hold up signs that say

So now you're arguing to kill people out of economic convenience? Someone ban this troll already.

Also PROTIP: If Jail provides a higher standard of living than society, the problem isn't with the jail.

[CHE with an AK]

Marx was against the death penalty
Marx was against the governments of his time using the death penalty. However, he was not against using violence or killing people to bring about the downfall of capitalism. In fact, if he were alive today, he would probably applaud some of the economic reforms that Norway has made in comparison to most of Europe.

To say that Marx would be against a social-democracy like Norway executing a right-wing psychopath wearing a “Marxist Hunter” patch who had just killed 80 leftist teenagers - is probably one of the most asinine things I have ever heard, and only a total fucking moron like yourself could believe it. You're like a bad parody of every "champagne commie" I've ever come across.




your motley assortment of mass murders, state capitalists and dictators
What a stupid ass douche, is there an ignore button on this forum? I'm done wasting time on you ... And you have the chutzpah to call me reactionary; go jerk off to Ayn Rand.




Everything about you betrays that you're a fucking poseur.
A “poseur”, because I’m not some whiny idealistic pussy – people like you are an entangled dingleberry on the asshole of the revolutionary left. Weak minded flower-power bourgeoisie liberals like you are what gets teenagers in Norway killed by right-wing assholes. The class war has never ended, but you want the left to play under peace time rules - in a 'feel good' suicide pact.


:rolleyes:

[RedNorth]

Life in labour camp. This was the most efficient method used by the Soviets as well. Society would be free from the madman, he would serve a penalty, there would be justice for the families of the victims, and he would do something that would benefit society by working, rather than spending state money that should go to the people instead.

[~Spectre]

I'm a "pussy"? Can he at least be restricted for sexism, pretty please?

[Princess Luna]

He should be held in prison until it can it be confirmed his views are have changed and he presents no danger to society, if that is the case than he should be released.

[~Spectre]

Weak minded flower-power bourgeoisie liberals like you are what gets teenagers in Norway killed by right-wing assholes.

Another solid Marxist analysis! Please tell us more so that may add it to the list! So far:

Norway executing this guy is "revolutionary violence"
Norway is "socialist"
Norway is a friend of the working class despite being capitalist and helping bomb multiple countries.
Marx would be a fan of Norway because they bribe the working class more than Somalia.

I'm sure if you keep going you can at least get to 1,500 pages.

[CHE with an AK]

I'm a "pussy"? Can he at least be restricted for sexism, pretty please?
"sexism", you're dumb ass just called nearly every historical leftist revolutionary or leader a murderer and dictator (something that should get you banned right away) + said that I would be pals with the shooter.

You know good and well what I mean with "pussy", and no not a female, because I know dozens of females who are far tougher and more militant than your whiny ass – or even myself. It has nothing to do with gender – you will note that I’ve also called you a dick. So maybe you’re a hermaphrodite? By the way that’s a joke, as I know that next you’ll cry for the Mommy mods to ban me for that too. You have weak convictions and lack the essential core to be part of the revolutionary left. The sooner you realize that, the better.



p.s. I can't find an ignore button, but I'm no longer responding to your trolling.

[coda]

<<I'm a "pussy"? Can he at least be restricted for sexism, pretty please>>

No way! "pussy" is a disparaging term for female genitals.. but not sexist! Learn the difference!

[~Spectre]

you're dumb ass just called nearly every historical leftist revolutionary

My are dumb ass didn't know there were only a handful of "historical leftist revolutionaries", all mentioned in your post.

[~Spectre]

+ said that I would be pals with the shooter.

You would be. You both have a lot of things in common. Your belief in capital punishment, your belief that Norway is socialist and in line with Marx. You both share "great men theories" of history and apparently worship heroes. You both lack any sort of material analysis, and both seem quite thirsty on eliminating people.

You're the same shit with a different smell.

[coda]

You guys should chill out.. see how some right-wing scumbag can easily break up the Left?

[∞]

Meh, just kill him. In the cheapest way possible. Back alley gun-to-the head. No need to waste time nor money.

[CommunityBeliever]

Norway executing this guy is "revolutionary violence"

I would say eliminating a guy who is a militant "Marxist Hunter" is indeed revolutionary violence. It is a shame that such violence has to happen but it is necessary for the progress of society.

It is ultimately irrelevant who the executioner is, if it is an angry victim, a fellow prisoner, or the state as long as it has the same effect of riding the Earth of this scum.

[Madslatter]

In almost all examples I'm not a fan of execution, but in very specific instances I think it is justified. This is one of those instances.

[Forward Union]

Why let him dictate the terms or have any bearing on the punishment?
I meant that we need to know what he wants so that we can avoid giving it to him.


He could also be using reverse psychology i.e. "Please kill me and make a martyr" (when really, he'd be pissing his pants). I'd be comfortable calling his bluff.


Norway doesn't have the death sentence so it's not really part of the discussion.


So you don't think there is anything one can do to forfeit their "human rights"? To me, it was at the point where he stole the human rights from 90 innocent teenagers? Why give him something that he denied them? I would say that human rights come with some basic human responsibilities.

Yes people can forfeit their human rights. But I don't consider a bourgeois state to have the legitimacy to take lives.


Well if the victims families would welcome it, the majority of Norway would welcome it, and he would welcome it - then killing him is a WIN/WIN for everyone. :)

It wouldn't particularly bother me if he was executed. But it may have repercussions. Such as keeping him in the headlines for another decade, and giving him status as a martyr, making his ideas more interesting. Execution is after all, interesting. I think he should be sidelined, and his work buried in a pile of academia about psychotic killers. It's exactly what he wouldn't want.

[#FF0000]

I would say eliminating a guy who is a militant "Marxist Hunter" is indeed revolutionary violence.

lol i wasn't aware the bourgeois state was capable of revolutionary violence in the 21st century.

srsly kids just go join some nazbol group or something you might find it fits you better

[The_Outernationalist]

He deserves to live in a prison that is run like a health spa, complete with flat screen TVs, mini fridges, i.e, most stuff that not even the working poor could afford through a life time of hard labor to the capitalist class:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

:rolleyes:







Just kidding.

The bastard should be hung. (although he'll probably end up at the health spa prison)

[The_Outernationalist]

He becomes fully rehabilitated and realizes the error of his ways and is no longer a danger to society, becoming a productive individual that works to help people.

Revenge is never good.


Yeah, because someone who is an obvious clinical psychopath (i.e they don't care about others at all by default) who kills 96 children can just realize "the errors of his ways". why don't you tell the victim's parents that.


really, are you that much of a dense, fucking moron?

[The_Outernationalist]

He should be held in prison until it can it be confirmed his views are have changed and he presents no danger to society, if that is the case than he should be released.

Can you really say that someone who kills 96 children for no apparent reason and with no forethought at all will ever NOT be a danger unto society?

[Andrw.turner]

kill him! he is not fit to live with human beings.

[eyedrop]

You are more conservative than the average man on the street.

[JustMovement]

Theres some pretty stupid arguments going around here. If your are against the capitalist state killing this guy because it is an illegitimate, reactionary, counter-revolutionary force that should wield no power, then you should also be against norway imprisoning this guy. You should be asking for every murderer, rapist, etc.etc. to go free.

But heres the thing, the state, by definition, holds the monopoly on violence. If you think a criminal like this one should be imprisoned, then we are perfectly free to speculate as to what other punishments, such as killing him, be.

What you are really against is the death penalty, which is fair enough I suppose, but that is a moral position and marxism is not an ethical theory, so the marxist position, as much as it might shock you, is not automatically against the death penalty. That is up to your conscience. Personally I would have nothing against the killing of someone who has committed a crime on this scale.

[eyedrop]

What you are really against is the death penalty, which is fair enough I suppose, but that is a moral position and marxism is not an ethical theory, so the marxist position, as much as it might shock you, is not automatically against the death penalty. That is up to your conscience. Personally I would have nothing against the killing of someone who has committed a crime on this scale.

Too bad no one has called you guys unmarxist, just bloodthirsty revenge-oriented bastards.

[Psy]

i doubt that

I worked as a deterrence against US fascists attacking the bourgeoisie, in 1984 Robert Jaw Mathew's Neo-Nazi group robbed a Brinks truck and the FBI just strait up burned him alive in the house where he made his stand against FBI agents and guess what US fascists from then on became very hesitant to stealing from the bourgeoisie.

Now for as much as I hate the FBI, I can't argue with the success of their tactics in correcting the action of the fascists when fascists became a threat to the bourgeoisie.

[Thirsty Crow]

Haha, a purge by the naïve utopian idealist liberals on a revolutionary leftist site … nice. :rolleyes:
Where is Uncle Joe when you need him? (half kidding)

Are you half-suggesting that these "naive utopian idealist liberals" should be half-executed, perhaps?



What you are really against is the death penalty, which is fair enough I suppose, but that is a moral position and marxism is not an ethical theory, so the marxist position, as much as it might shock you, is not automatically against the death penalty. That is up to your conscience. Personally I would have nothing against the killing of someone who has committed a crime on this scale. What a load of crap.
Pray tell me, how is the strategic communist position that the capitalist state (THE CAPITALIST STATE) should be pressured into outlawing the capital punishment (pun intended) when it is a matter of fact that such a thing rarely acts as a deterrent and that many innocent people might be wrongly executed, and most of all, that it is the capitalist state in question which is legally executing people, how is that not a part of a communist class position?

All of this stands in relation to forced labour. Advocating such measures is, in my opinion, reactionary and strategically short sighted.

[JustMovement]

Are you half-suggesting that these "naive utopian idealist liberals" should be half-executed, perhaps?


What a load of crap.
Pray tell me, how is the strategic communist position that the capitalist state (THE CAPITALIST STATE) should be pressured into outlawing the capital punishment (pun intended) when it is a matter of fact that such a thing rarely acts as a deterrent and that many innocent people might be wrongly executed, and most of all, that it is the capitalist state in question which is legally executing people, how is that not a part of a communist class position?

All of this stands in relation to forced labour. Advocating such measures is, in my opinion, reactionary and strategically short sighted.

Communists advocating forced labour on the other hand looks great. But I wasnt talking about the death penalty in the U.S. but how it should be applied to this specific instance in Norway.

[∞]

Someone who kills so much should just get shot in the head.

Or we could have scientists preform experiments on him that you can't otherwise perform with most people. Life threatening experiments, sounds like a pretty good idea. However, if he does not comply, just shoot him in the head.

[RedAnarchist]

Someone who kills so much should just get shot in the head.

Or we could have scientists preform experiments on him that you can't otherwise perform with most people. Life threatening experiments, sounds like a pretty good idea. However, if he does not comply, just shoot him in the head.

I don't think we should be getting ideas from Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, and anyone else, who practised human vivisection.

[∞]

I don't think we should be getting ideas from Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, and anyone else, who practised human vivisection.

Didn't get it from them. As far as I'm concerned he isn't an innocent Jew.

[Meridian]

Someone who kills so much should just get shot in the head.
Why do him that honor? What he wants is martyrdom.

[The Underdog]

Why do him that honor? What he wants is martyrdom.

Wouldn't he have shot himself if that was the case? It isn't like he didn't have the opportunity.

[∞]

Why do him that honor? What he wants is martyrdom.

Strip him naked and have people tear him limb by limb.

[CommunityBeliever]

lol i wasn't aware the bourgeois state was capable of revolutionary violence in the 21st century.

It basically is not which is why I highly doubt they actually will execute him, but someone else around him could still do it.


Strip him naked and have people tear him limb by limb.

I think that is going too far.

Just shoot in the head like you said before, that is quick and painless.

[#FF0000]

It basically is not which is why I highly doubt they actually will execute him, but someone else around him could still do it.

You're a fucking idiot.

p.s., for everyone else, if you voted for the first two options in this poll, you're not a communist. Sorry <3

[∞]

You're a fucking idiot.

p.s., for everyone else, if you voted for the first two options in this poll, you're not a communist. Sorry <3

Fine if you voted for one of the first two options you are hereby declared a ∞ist.

[CommunityBeliever]

You're a fucking idiot.

What evidence do you have to back up this assertion?


p.s., for everyone else, if you voted for the first two options in this poll, you're not a communist. Sorry <3

Yeah because "real communists" can never support the killing of our political enemies, instead we should let them roam around in a luxurious prison. "Real communists" should win over their enemy with hugs and kisses rather then violence.

[miltonwasfried...man]

Execution is unethical, and life imprisonment is pointless. He killed a lot of innocent people, but that doesn't mean he still can't be worth something as a human being. I think he should serve 20 years or so and get treatment. Who knows? Maybe he'll reform.

People like that do not "reform" or "learn better". This guy is a cold blooded psycho and needs to be put away for life.

[Sir Comradical]

He must be provided the proper rehabilitation facilities.

http://matei.org/ithink/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/gulagnpsBelbaltlag1932.gif

[#FF0000]

What evidence do you have to back up this assertion?

You support giving the bourgeois state the power to kill prisoners.




Yeah because "real communists" can never support the killing of our political enemies, instead we should let them roam around in a luxurious prison. "Real communists" should win over their enemy with hugs and kisses rather then violence.

Real communists can never support giving the state the power to kill prisoners, actually.

[Sir Comradical]

You support giving the bourgeois state the power to kill prisoners.

If this shit happened under socialism and they put the fascist up against a wall, I think I'd still sleep at night.

[CommunityBeliever]

You support giving the bourgeois state the power to kill prisoners.That is false.


Real communists can never support giving the state the power to kill prisoners, actually. Communists can never support the state itself. What we want is a society with neither the traditional prison system or capital punishment.

We are discussing is what should be done to this criminal. Let me remind you that he killed ~90 'leftist' teenagers! I say we should kill him so he cannot ever do more damage.

[#FF0000]

If this shit happened under socialism and they put the fascist up against a wall, I think I'd still sleep at night.

But guess what! We don't live in a socialist world! The people we allow to kill a prisoner in this instance would just as soon use it against us!

Woah! It's almost like you have to think about things before saying them.

[#FF0000]

itt: people call the labor party 'leftist' and support capital punishment in advanced capitalist societies, call it 'progressive'

[Sir Comradical]

But guess what! We don't live in a socialist world! The people we allow to kill a prisoner in this instance would just as soon use it against us!

Woah! It's almost like you have to think about things before saying them.

You make a good point and I have to agree with you.

[Fopeos]

Give him a hard labor sentence followed by some type of community service where he'd have to help those he claims to hate. It might be posible to awaken his humanity and reform him.

[CommunityBeliever]

All I support is killing this person and I don't think anyone here supports the use of capital punishment in ideal circumstances so please don't mix up these issues.


The people we allow to kill a prisoner in this instance would just as soon use it against us! They will kill us either way.

[Meridian]

Wouldn't he have shot himself if that was the case? It isn't like he didn't have the opportunity.
No, I don't think you understand. The more grand the punishment for him, the more "correct" his analysis turns out. He thinks "Cultural Marxists" are in power and that he has positioned himself as an enemy of those who have power. He has turned the power structure on its head.

Suicide wouldn't show anything.

[The Underdog]

No, I don't think you understand. The more grand the punishment for him, the more "correct" his analysis turns out. He thinks "Cultural Marxists" are in power and that he has positioned himself as an enemy of those who have power. He has turned the power structure on its head.

Suicide wouldn't show anything.

Okay. I just thought that, if he had wanted to become a martyr, he would have adopted a 'they'll never take me alive' kind of mentality. To just surrender to the authorities implies weakness and lack of determination, in my opinion anyway.

[∞]

Give him a hard labor sentence followed by some type of community service where he'd have to help those he claims to hate. It might be posible to awaken his humanity and reform him.

Enough of this reform him crap. What he did was unforgivable. You know who else was "rehabilitated"? Jeffrey Dahmer... he found his "refuge" in Christianity. But me and many others agree he deserved to get beaten to death. Save time and money by killing them. Terrorism is punishable by death, no exceptions. Innocent lives cannot be taken in vain.

[piet11111]

Look this guy is clearly a threat to society and should be removed as such.

If rehabilitation was likely for this guy then i would support that but execution is required to remove a clear threat to society.

[CHE with an AK]

Theres some pretty stupid arguments going around here. If your are against the capitalist state killing this guy because it is an illegitimate, reactionary, counter-revolutionary force that should wield no power, then you should also be against norway imprisoning this guy. You should be asking for every murderer, rapist, etc.etc. to go free.

But heres the thing, the state, by definition, holds the monopoly on violence. If you think a criminal like this one should be imprisoned, then we are perfectly free to speculate as to what other punishments, such as killing him, be.

What you are really against is the death penalty, which is fair enough I suppose, but that is a moral position and marxism is not an ethical theory, so the marxist position, as much as it might shock you, is not automatically against the death penalty. That is up to your conscience. Personally I would have nothing against the killing of someone who has committed a crime on this scale.

http://www.silvamultimedia.com/myspace/297animated_gif_applause.gif





instead we should let them roam around in a luxurious prison.
... Imagine the benefit to humanity if capitalist Germany had just executed Adolf Hitler, instead of feeding him 3 meals a day and washing his bed sheets while he wrote Mein Kampf.





Real communists can never support giving the state the power to kill prisoners, actually.
Which of the "10 Marx Commandments" is that? Because I've never come across it?

If the interests of us and the state happen to overlap in some instances, then why not let them do the dirty work of eliminating right-wing fascists for us? It will just save us the trouble of having to shoot them later after the revolution (when apparently it is ok to take off the kid gloves). Any time a right-wing psychopath like this dies, it is a good thing. Who technically pulls the trigger is of little difference.

[∞]

Why do insist on typing in that font? I don't even read your posts. Please type in regular font please.

[#FF0000]

... Imagine the benefit to humanity if capitalist Germany had just executed Adolf Hitler, instead of feeding him 3 meals a day and washing his bed sheets while he wrote Mein Kampf.

Yeah imagine that. Imagine they did that to every reactionary before him.

And imagine they did that to Liebneckt and Luxembourg. Shit, they wouldn't even need the Freikorps.


Which of the "10 Marx Commandments" is that? Because I've never come across it?

If the interests of us and the state happen to overlap in some instances, then why not let them do the dirty work of eliminating right-wing fascists for us? It will just save us the trouble of having to shoot them later after the revolution (when apparently it is ok to take off the kid gloves). Any time a right-wing psychopath like this dies, it is a good thing. Who technically pulls the trigger is of little difference.

Because, you dipshit, every action the state takes against Fascists to keep them from organizing, they can take against us in kind.

Jesus Christ that's anti-fascism 101.

I mean, of course the state will still come after us and will still try and kill us when things are actually dire for the forces of privilege, but why make it easy for them to crush us when revolution isn't even in the formative stages? Why give them the carte blanche to do anything they want to consolidate their power.

You kids need to play less Red Orchestra and Call of Duty and think things through. Fascists aren't such a powerful and looming threat that we should side with the State to fight them. This guy might have killed 93 people but that isn't shit compared to the body count of workers that liberal capitalists, be they conservative, modern liberal, or 'Labor', rack up every single day.

But, yeah, no, fuck it let's make it easier for the State to kill just so this individual can get his due. Putting this one person to death is worth giving legitimacy to the State when it commits violence against workers.

You stupid motherfuckers. Good fucking god.

[#FF0000]

All I support is killing this person and I don't think anyone here supports the use of capital punishment in ideal circumstances so please don't mix up these issues.

Oh you're talking about some vigilante shit.

Well, I don't know. That's whatever. I don't feel strongly for or against it. I just don't think it'd be useful or worth the time.

[CHE with an AK]

Why do insist on typing in that font?
For me it is easier to read. I didn't realize it looked like Sanskrit to some people.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Look this guy is clearly a threat to society and should be removed as such.

If rehabilitation was likely for this guy then i would support that but execution is required to remove a clear threat to society.

Who is to decide who is a threat to society?

Lots of things are 'threats to society'.

Personally, I think your attitude is a threat to society. Does that mean that you should have your life removed? Clearly not.

[black magick hustla]

i am more interested in what turned a loner into a monster with such a murderous grief for life. this society turns men into beasts of burden with psychic aberrations, i am not interested in the legalistic "solutions" of a state that wants to hammer by brute force the effects of the generalized misery it marshalls and guards. it is easy to apply principles to cookie cutter situations, but when situations like this happen even the so called "leftists" deteriorate into their more primal impulses. i won't bend the blood thirst of class society, never

[ZeroNowhere]

Enough of this reform him crap. What he did was unforgivable.
Aye, for all things are forgiven already, and naught is left to forgive. For wishes of ill lie in deeps of unreason, cold eyes averted from the sun's bright gaze; yet we dance and rejoice in the reddening sun.

[pax et aequalitas]

I believe the death penalty is always wrong. Why? Because it means killing someone because we do not accept people killing people. As my calculator always says: "ERROR".

[Psy]

I believe the death penalty is always wrong. Why? Because it means killing someone because we do not accept people killing people. As my calculator always says: "ERROR".

But what those that doesn't the problem as him killing people but him killing the proletariat? That we are not just talking about a slaughter but that the fascists committed an act of war, thus the logical response is total war against fascism as it is the only response that would prevent this from happening.

[Rss]

... Imagine the benefit to humanity if capitalist Germany had just executed Adolf Hitler, instead of feeding him 3 meals a day and washing his bed sheets while he wrote Mein Kampf.

To be honest, guy with funny moustache wasn't only driving force behind fascism in Germany. Pissed off petty bourgeoise, lumpen proletariat and later captains of german industry were the supporting force behind nazis.

[ZeroNowhere]

Imagine the benefit to humanity if capitalist Germany had just executed Adolf Hitler, instead of feeding him 3 meals a day and washing his bed sheets while he wrote Mein Kampf.So basically treason and attempts to overthrow the government should be punishable by death.

[Black Sheep]

WTF , people? Poll results..
:(
Ideally, he should be re-educated to rid himself of chauvinism,racism and xenophobia, and to learn to respect the lives of people who have never harmed him.To learn how the free market works, the national delusions he's been fed, the true intent and meaning of religious indoctrination, etc

It's in the fucking thread title, IDEALLY.

Do you really think, as COMMUNISTS and materialists, that the man inherently "deserves" a life sentence / a death penalty?People turn out to be what they've been taught to be, what they've been indoctrinated to be.

What the fuck,revleft..
That was dissappointing.

[Psy]

WTF , people? Poll results..
:(
Ideally, he should be re-educated to rid himself of chauvinism,racism and xenophobia, and to learn to respect the lives of people who have never harmed him.To learn how the free market works, the national delusions he's been fed, the true intent and meaning of religious indoctrination, etc

It's in the fucking thread title, IDEALLY.

Do you really think, as COMMUNISTS and materialists, that the man inherently "deserves" a life sentence / a death penalty?People turn out to be what they've been taught to be, what they've been indoctrinated to be.

What the fuck,revleft..
That was dissappointing.

Ideally Anders Behring Breivik would have been became a prisoner of a revolutionary army loyal to the proletariat that brought Anders Behring Breivik up on crimes against the proletariat and hung out for what Anders Behring Breivik already admits to (killing unarmed civilians to further the cause of fascism). Trying to rehabilitate Anders Behring Breivik would be strategically unsound, it is just far more efficient to neutralize fascists and be done with them as quickly as possible.

[ZeroNowhere]

It is amusingly apt that Psy's ideal is not socialism, but the... revolutionary army.

[Psy]

It is amusingly apt that Psy's ideal is not socialism, but the... revolutionary army.

Because we are talking about an attack to the proletariat, socialism doesn't offer a solution as the problem is military in nature. We have a fascist getting more bold and actually slaughtering the working class, if there is no swift military response against fascism as a whole then it would just encourage fascists to imitate such atrocities.

[The_Outernationalist]

You're a fucking idiot.

p.s., for everyone else, if you voted for the first two options in this poll, you're not a communist. Sorry <3

If that makes me not a communist, then I'd rather be that, then what you are, which is an idiot.

<3

[The_Outernationalist]

itt: people call the labor party 'leftist' and support capital punishment in advanced capitalist societies, call it 'progressive'

Violence isn't always a bad thing. Violence is necessary sometimes. I imagine the Russian Civil War would've never been won had there been placard waving and chanting and street antics.

[CHE with an AK]

I believe the death penalty is always wrong.
"Always" ... good luck battling capitalism then. If a real chance at revolution ever came, you'd wind up like the other Utopians have, at the bottom of a mass grave - that is, if you ever take the class struggle from the internet to the real world.




So basically treason and attempts to overthrow the government should be punishable by death.
Any attempt to overthrow a government by a rightist, in order to move the wheel of progress backwards, should be automatic death. The road to Communism is a marathon, not a sprint. Norway is on mile 12 of 26, and he wanted to take them back to the starting line.




it is just far more efficient to neutralize fascists and be done with them as quickly as possible.
At least the revolutionary left has some bite left. We need Vladimir Lenin, more than John Lennon.




Violence is necessary sometimes. I imagine the Russian Civil War would've never been won
Sadly, over the last few days I have noticed that this forum is inundated with "anti-Bolshevik", "Anti-Soviet", "Anti-Mao", "Anti-Cuban revolution", "Anti-Lenin", etc members. I guess it is the "revolutionary left", if you discount any group or individual who has ever actually gotten their hands dirty by leading a revolution of the left. Some of the anti-communist comments on this thread alone could have been copy and pasted from a Fox News message board, especially by Spectre.

[~Spectre]

Sadly, over the last few days I have noticed that this forum is inundated with "anti-Bolshevik", "Anti-Soviet", "Anti-Mao", "Anti-Cuban revolution", "Anti-Lenin", etc members. I guess it is the "revolutionary left", if you discount any group or individual who has ever actually gotten their hands dirty by leading a revolution of the left.

"The left" doesn't do revolutions. The working class does. I'll grant you that some of your guys were pretty good at creating capitalist states.

[~Spectre]

Violence isn't always a bad thing. Violence is necessary sometimes. I imagine the Russian Civil War would've never been won had there been placard waving and chanting and street antics.

I imagine most wars wouldn't be won without the use of all types of explosives.

That doesn't mean I support the state making a captured person walk a minefield.

[~Spectre]

Norway is on mile 12 of 26, and he wanted to take them back to the starting line.


At which particular mile do they stop bombing Libya, and is that before or after they stop occupying Afghanistan?

[#FF0000]

Violence isn't always a bad thing. Violence is necessary sometimes. I imagine the Russian Civil War would've never been won had there been placard waving and chanting and street antics.

what does this have to do with advocating for capital punishment in capitalist society


If that makes me not a communist, then I'd rather be that, then what you are, which is an idiot.

<3

hey i know it's really really hard to defend your position here but you could at least try silly guy.

<3

[#FF0000]

itt people equate the bourgeois state murdering people with violence in a revolution

[Psy]

what does this have to do with advocating for capital punishment in capitalist society
Because we are talking about a fascist taking up arms against the proletariat and killing unarmed workers and we don't have any revolutionary army to kill Anders Behring Breivik regardless of being police custody, thus we have to yield to the bourgeoisie state to make an example of Anders Behring Breivik to deter further attacks.

[#FF0000]

Because we are talking about a fascist taking up arms against the proletariat and killing unarmed workers and we don't have any revolutionary army to kill Anders Behring Breivik regardless of being police custody, thus we have to yield to the bourgeoisie state to make an example of Anders Behring Breivik to deter further attacks.

What a short-sighted stance to take. Do you think the state wouldn't use these measures against workers too? Like do you expect Norway to execute someone just this once and not execute working class prisoners? Really?

y'all are dumb as fuck, man. Seriously.

[#FF0000]

lol i bet you guys support gun control too and support the police raiding fascist meetings or something.

[~Spectre]

itt people equate the bourgeois state murdering people with violence in a revolution


It's the only argument defenders of the death penalty ever have. The capitalists literally argue it the exact same way:

UrG6p48SFhE

I'd invite comrades to skim through that debate to note how the advocates of capital punishment always resort to the same dull talking points:

-"The need to defend against fascism!!!"

- And the constant strawman arguments of war time killing and immediate self defense

To save you all time though, I'd specifically direct you to the late Christopher Hitchens' reply to the National Review @ 2:45.

It all applies to you pro-death penalty lot. Which is unsurprising. It wouldn't be the first time that alleged authoritarian "marxists" make the same arguments as the National Review.

[#FF0000]

its like some of you kids have right-wing friends to impress or something

[Psy]

What a short-sighted stance to take. Do you think the state wouldn't use these measures against workers too? Like do you expect Norway to execute someone just this once and not execute working class prisoners? Really?

y'all are dumb as fuck, man. Seriously.
Of course they will, thus why we need a revolutionary army. Yet it is preferable in the short term to have Norway as a bourgeoisie state rather then a fascist state thus why we want the Norway ruling class to crush the fascists in Norway by any means necessary.

Think it like the united front against fascism in the 1930's, nothing more the a strategic alliance against fascism.

[~Spectre]

Of course they will, thus why we need a revolutionary army. Yet it is preferable in the short term to have Norway as a bourgeoisie state rather then a fascist state thus why we want the Norway ruling class to crush the fascists in Norway by any means necessary.

Think it like the united front against fascism in the 1930's, nothing more the a strategic alliance against fascism.

Turning Norway into a capital punishment state is a step away from fascism?

[Klaatu]

Does anyone know where his gun was manufactured (USA or other?)

[#FF0000]

Think it like the united front against fascism in the 1930's, nothing more the a strategic alliance against fascism.

Yeah you're right i mean it's not like that ended in millions of communist left dead in ditches.

[#FF0000]

Does anyone know where his gun was manufactured (USA or other?)

i have no idea but Im going to guess Belgium and then look it up

[Psy]

Turning Norway into a capital punishment state is a step away from fascism?

I'm not looking it like that, I'm looking at from the point of view of military theory. This fascist offensive against us has been a huge success for fascism, we took 76 casualties while fascists took none and they could aways break Anders Behring Breivik out as long as he still alive.

So from a military stand point this strategy could actually work for the fascists simply by killing the left then breaking out their forces the police arrests as the bourgeois state just locks them up and doesn't really get involved in the war between fascists and the left.

[#FF0000]

So in your mind, helping the side that is bigger, more powerful, and equally interested in keeping us and the fascists out of power is the right decision to make?

Tell me, what kills more people world wide? Fascists, or bourgeois states?

You're a fool, please stop talking.

[~Spectre]

I'm not looking it like that, I'm looking at from the point of view of military theory. This fascist offensive against us has been a huge success for fascism, we took 76 casualties while fascists took none and they could aways break Anders Behring Breivik out as long as he still alive.

So from a military stand point this strategy could actually work for the fascists simply by killing the left then breaking out their forces the police arrests as the bourgeois state just locks them up and doesn't really get involved in the war between fascists and the left.

:/

Dude, you need to land. You indulge your own fantasies too much for it to be even remotely healthy. There isn't a unified "fascist army" launching into attacks against "the left".

Moreover, these kids were the children of the ruling party an aggressive capitalist state. Where are we getting this idea that somehow he struck out against radicals and thus it will be ignored?

[Psy]

:/

Dude, you need to land. You indulge your own fantasies too much for it to be even remotely healthy. There isn't a unified "fascist army" launching into attacks against "the left".

There are armed fascists militias that are only reluctant to engaged in armed struggle because of their failures in the past. This successful attack will encourage these armed fascists groups to take more violent actions. In fact in the USA support of facists groups by the FBI did lead to rising violent crimes by fascists groups in the USA till one of them robbed $3 million from Brinks and the FBI decided to teach American fascists their place.



Moreover, these kids were the children of the ruling party an aggressive capitalist state. Where are we getting this idea that somehow he struck out against radicals and thus it will be ignored?
This was an attack on the left, now it is true they were supporters of leftist reform yet fascism doesn't see any difference.



So in your mind, helping the side that is bigger, more powerful, and equally interested in keeping us and the fascists out of power is the right decision to make?

Tell me, what kills more people world wide? Fascists, or bourgeois states?

It is not like the bourgeois state will gain anything from our support and fascists are a larger threat as the bourgeois does value us as exploitable labor while fascists don't.

[∞]

Aye, for all things are forgiven already, and naught is left to forgive. For wishes of ill lie in deeps of unreason, cold eyes averted from the sun's bright gaze; yet we dance and rejoice in the reddening sun.

But what is mercy? It is the meekness of the mind which inevitably pacifies rightful vengeance and allows for treachery. My wishes do not remain ill, but in favor what comes easily. Mercy is a vile concept which hinders justice and rewards disgusting excuses for human beings. A quick death, a real solitude on our Earth will be felt. Anyone who robs life does not deserve life him/herself.

[Metacomet]

Life in prison. I think prisons should be like crappy hostel rooms. Not cushy, but not a dungeon.

I don't believe in executions. I do think rehabilitation is possible with a lot/most prisoners.

But a crime like this, I don't think he should get out. Just my opinion.

[CommunityBeliever]

Turning Norway into a capital punishment statePlase stop pretending that the state cares what we think about the death penalty or anything else. We are not "letting the state execute people" its not a democratic state, the state just does what it does.

[#FF0000]

Plase stop pretending that the state cares what we think about the death penalty or anything else. We are not "letting the state execute people" its not a democratic state, the state just does what it does.

Oh okay so because we're irrelevant (we are) it's cool to take positions that are completely contrary to our aims and shoot ourselves in the foot, I guess.