extreme-right terrorist attack oslo, norway, 90+ killed

[punisa]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/22/norway.explosion/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Who could be behind this?

[RedAnarchist]

I'm watching BBC News via their website, and it seems to be a car bomb of some sort. There was mention of perhaps this was done by right-wing groups, but the usual jumping to conclusion of blaming the current scapegoat of Muslims is occurring, even though they don't even know what kind of bomb it was. I don't think they were aiming for as many deaths as possible, seeing as they chose a fairly quiet time of day during summer.

I hope our Norwegian members are all safe and well.

[OhYesIdid]

Well, this might just be a way to undermine the authority of the red-green centre/left alliance. Or it might be something else. Just spitballing here.

[crazyirish93]

On sky news they are saying its ammonium nitrate bomb well if they were not aiming for deaths why place it in a square and give no warning.

[RadioRaheem84]

I do hope our Norwegian comrades are safe.

Not to change the subject, but to what degree are right wing groups prominent in Norwegian society, by that I mean their numbers.

I had a Norwegian American co-worker who was half black, half-white (Norwegian) and she told me that she could not take the overt racism of certain sectors of Norwegian society and that she was shocked that there would be pretty large right wing demonstrations targeting non-white (mostly Arab, Muslim) citizens happening from time to time.

I was extremely shocked to know there was a strong right wing xenophobic presense in Norway. Is all this true?

[RedAnarchist]

The Wikipedia article on the events in Oslo seems to show a possible cause -


Al Jazeera reports that, several days prior to the explosion, Norwegian prosecutors filed a terrorism charge against Mullah Krekar, the founder of the Kurdish Ansar al-Islam, who faces accusations of threatening former MP Erna Solberg with death. He responded that "Norway will pay a heavy price for my death. If, for example, Erna Solberg deports me and I die as a result, she will suffer the same fate." However, Al Jazeera states it is not clear whether the case is related to the blast.[4]

Edit - This seems to be being removed and replaced on the article.

[Obs]

I do hope our Norwegian comrades are safe.

Not to change the subject, but to what degree are right wing groups prominent in Norwegian society, by that I mean their numbers.

I had a Norwegian American co-worker who was half black, half-white (Norwegian) and she told me that she could not take the overt racism of certain sectors of Norwegian society and that she was shocked that there would be pretty large right wing demonstrations targeting non-white (mostly Arab, Muslim) citizens happening from time to time.

I was extremely shocked to know there was a strong right wing xenophobic presense in Norway. Is all this true?
There is in all of Scandinavia. We do our best to fight it, but there's so many of them.

[RedAnarchist]

A possibly connected attack elsewhere at an event run by the Norwegian Worker's Youth League - http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10080590.

[RadioRaheem84]

There is in all of Scandinavia. We do our best to fight it, but there's so many of them.


Holy shit? Really? So it's not the tolerant social democratic bastion of progress that American liberals envy?

Is the rise of right wing extremism due to the neo-liberalization of the welfare states?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Holy shit? Really? So it's not the tolerant social democratic bastion of progress that American liberals envy?

Is the rise of right wing extremism due to the neo-liberalization of the welfare states?

Partly, yes. The right-wing nationalists often adopt social-democratic economic policy in order to cash in on popular dissatisfaction with neo-liberal policies, at least on the surface, as well as channelling this into the more common "blame-the-immigrants" type deals.

[RadioRaheem84]

Partly, yes. The right-wing nationalists often adopt social-democratic economic policy in order to cash in on popular dissatisfaction with neo-liberal policies, at least on the surface, as well as channelling this into the more common "blame-the-immigrants" type deals.

Wow, that sounds like straight up fascism.

My co-worker would say that the racism was almost entrenched in the culture even without the right wing extremism. She mentioned something about sterilization programs. Is this true? She was there during the late 90s, early 2000s.

[RED DAVE]

Oslo Bombing: Massive Blast Hits Norway Government Headquarters, Prime Minister's Office (LIVE UPDATES)

THE CANADIAN PRESS — OSLO - A powerful bomb tore open several Oslo buildings, including the prime minister's office, on Friday, killing at least one person, a Norwegian news agency said. Several people also were injured, as the blast shattered windows and coated the street with documents.

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg is safe, government spokeswoman Camilla Ryste told The Associated Press. A senior adviser to the prime minister, Oivind Ostang, said Stoltenberg was working at home Friday and was not in the building.

Norwegian news agency NTB says police confirm the Oslo explosion was caused by a bomb. The country's public broadcaster, NRK, said one person was confirmed killed.
"There has been one or several powerful explosions in the government district in Oslo," Oslo police said in a brief statement.

"So far, police cannot say anything about the scope of the damage, aside from that there's been one or several explosions."

An Oslo police official, who would not give her name because she was not authorized to speak to the media, said "there are several people injured."

She said the cause of the explosion was not clear. Asked whether police suspected a terror attack, she said: "It's too early to speculate in that."

NRK showed video of a blackened car lying on its side amid the debris.

Most of the windows in the 20-floor high-rise were blown out, and the bottom floor appeared to be gutted. Nearby offices were also heavily damaged and evacuated, including those housing some of Norway's leading newspapers and news agency NTB.
Witness Ole Tommy Pedersen was standing at a bus stop about 100 metres from the high-rise at around 3:30 p.m. (1330 GMT) when the explosion occurred.

"I saw three or four injured people being carried out of the building a few minutes later," Pedersen told AP.

An AP reporter who was in the NTB office said the building shook from the blast and all employees evacuated as the alarm went off. Down in the street, he saw one person with a bleeding leg being led away from the area.

The government building houses the offices of the prime minister and his administration. Several ministries are in surrounding buildings.

The blast comes as Norway grapples with a homegrown terror plot linked to al-Qaida. Two suspects are in jail awaiting charges.

Last week, a Norwegian prosecutor filed terror charges against an Iraqi-born cleric for threatening Norwegian politicians with death if he is deported from the Scandinavian country. The indictment centred on statements that Mullah Krekar — the founder of the Kurdish Islamist group Ansar al-Islam — made to various news media, including American network NBC.

Terrorism has also been a concern in neighbouring Denmark since an uproar over cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad six years ago. Danish authorities say they have foiled several terror plots linked to the 2005 newspaper cartoons that triggered protests in Muslim countries. Last month, a Danish appeals court on Wednesday sentenced a Somali man to 10 years in prison for breaking into the home of the cartoonist.http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/07/22/oslo-bombing-massive-blast-norway_n_906683.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl2|sec1_lnk3|80308#s313797&title=Norway_Explosion

RED DAVE

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Wow, that sounds like straight up fascism.

My co-worker would say that the racism was almost entrenched in the culture even without the right wing extremism. She mentioned something about sterilization programs. Is this true? She was there during the late 90s, early 2000s.

There was a lot of eugenics during the 40's and 50's and like in the U.S. the idea of sterilising various "unfit groups" considered undesirable did not stop until sometime in the 60's; and the use of lobotomy to treat mental disorders lingered until 1973.

There was of course racism at all times in some aspects, but in times of economic prosperity it did not show up as evidently in reality; there were significant Italian and southern European immigration, as well as Finns, coming in during the 1950's, but because they were essentially labour imports and the times were good, there was little in coherent racist backlash.

The more serious racist rise begun by the economic troubles of the late 80's and the 1990's, which saw a steep increase in Neo-Nazism, including a few well-publicised racist murders. This rise toppled off by the late 90's but has seen a dramatic resurge in the last few years.

There's still forced sterilisation of anyone that undergoes sexual reassignment surgery, however...

[Mindtoaster]

Is Norway involved with NATO in Libya?

[RedAnarchist]

Is Norway involved with NATO in Libya?

Yes, and the BBC just mentioned that Norway has carried out about 10% of the aerial bombings, but were meant to withdraw next month.

[RedAnarchist]

The BBC and Reuters is saying that one person has been arrested at the youth camp, so hopefully that incident is now over.

[Sasha]

acording to dutch media the norwegian prime minister was supposed to speech at the youth camp so that very much sounds connected to the bomb, the shooter there (dressed in an police uniform) is described as "big, blond norwegian looking"
might be that the fascist angle is to be taken more serious than presumed by all mayor news networks that are already are blaming the muslims

[Sasha]

7 dead on the youth camp, thats fucked up

[Sasha]

Varg Vikernes did it
Why even bother asking

unless you have any ground for this have an verbal warning for trolling

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Are there any suspects that have been confirmed? Can't get on Al Jazeera or the BBC.

[Sasha]

no, the media is trowing all kinds of speculations arround, most populair seem to be al qaida, mullah krekar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullah_Krekar) and Gaddaffi but their guesses are as good as ours.

[Sasha]

but if they indeed arrested the gunman from the youthcamp we should know soon enough

[Per Levy]

acording to dutch media the norwegian prime minister was supposed to speech at the youth camp so that very much sounds connected to the bomb, the shooter there (dressed in an police uniform) is described as "big, blond norwegian looking"
might be that the fascist angle is to be taken more serious than presumed by all mayor news networks that are already are blaming the muslims

i just read that the norwegian police says there is defenetly a connection between both attacks. also there are now 7 dead in oslo and at least 4 dead in the youth camp. yeah most news i've read about it also ar going that it might be muslims terrorists or something, or at least it could be.


7 dead on the youth camp, thats fucked up

indeed, its sickening.

[bcbm]

A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html

[Metacomet]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html


So what they are recruiting nordic blond men now?

Something about this seems weird.

[RadioRaheem84]

:confused:Extremely weird.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

So what they are recruiting nordic blond men now?

Something about this seems weird.

Indeed. Although westerners being recruited to fundamentalist Islam is not something unheard of, it does throw a wrench into the works and might be a kerfluffle in the making for the media.

[Tjis]

Dutch news reports that the Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claim has been retracted.

[RadioRaheem84]

Indeed. Although westerners being recruited to fundamentalist Islam is not something unheard of, it does throw a wrench into the works and might be a kerfluffle in the making for the media.

It should also be noted that there are Western looking Arabs, especially in areas around Syria, Lebanon, Algeria and Palestine. Also, there are plenty of Muslims in Bosnia and the Balkans, not to mention the surge of Russians converting to Islam.

So let's not think as though Muslims only come in one shade of skin tone. The religion is very diverse. To think otherwise is to fall for Anne Coulter American right wing logic in support of racial profiling.

Also I am not equating the religion with the terrorists, just making a demographic point.

[Sasha]

the "claim" was based on some posting on an message forum for al-qaida wanabe keboardwarriors on the same forum the claim is retracted now by the o.p.

[IndependentCitizen]

I'm watching BBC News via their website, and it seems to be a car bomb of some sort. There was mention of perhaps this was done by right-wing groups, but the usual jumping to conclusion of blaming the current scapegoat of Muslims is occurring, even though they don't even know what kind of bomb it was. I don't think they were aiming for as many deaths as possible, seeing as they chose a fairly quiet time of day during summer.

I hope our Norwegian members are all safe and well.

Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility. I love how the left immediately jumps to the conclusion it's a scapegoat....

And yes, they were aiming for as many deaths as possible. Why else would you enter a camp full of kids and begin firing on them.

[Sasha]

20 to 30 people reportedly dead on the island

[fionntan]

20 to 30 people reportedly dead on the island


At the labour confrence/camp?? he must of had atomatic weapons with him and not just a hand gun.. Bad news all the same.

[RadioRaheem84]

Can someone please explain to me the ruling party's stance on issues such as immigration, foreign policy, war, and other things that might have caused people to do such an insane thing?

I also cannot fucking believe that Kate's wedding dress is front page news while I had to find news about Norway's disaster!

[Tjis]

Latest reports mention that there was more than one shooter on the island, all dressed up as police officers (unconfirmed).

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Can someone please explain to me the ruling party's stance on issues such as immigration, foreign policy, war, and other things that might have caused people to do such an insane thing?

I also cannot fucking believe that Kate's wedding dress is front page news while I had to find news about Norway's disaster!

The media angle is in relation to Norway and NATO. Norway is involved in Afghanistan as well as Libya, which creates the potential link between the attacks and Islamic fundamentalism.

[RadioRaheem84]

The media angle is in relation to Norway and NATO. Norway is involved in Afghanistan as well as Libya, which creates the potential link between the attacks and Islamic fundamentalism.

But I assumed that Islamic fundamentalists were supportive of the Libyan rebels and the position to remove Gaddafi?

[Red Commissar]

Some of these groups may be displeased with many of these nations that formerly offered them asylum are now retracting them, and particularly in the past five years they've found it hard to get it. They benefited from this when they were turned against Soviet and pro-Soviet groups, but nowadays that is not the case and governments don't have a desire to give them asylum.

Mullah Krekar has been mentioned a lot but I doubt he would have had the organizational capacity or resources to carry out an attack like this. Considering he's in the middle of his own asylum hearing this would be self-defeating on his end.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Some of these groups may be displeased with many of these nations that formerly offered them asylum are now retracting them. They benefited this when they were turned against Soviet and pro-Soviet groups, but nowadays that is not the case.

Mullah Krekar has been mentioned a lot but I doubt he would have had the organizational capacity or resources to carry out an attack like this. Considering he's in the middle of his own asylum hearing this would be self-defeating on his end.

Yup, and I believe his "threats" were only should he actually be deported. He hasn't been told he is being deported so why give them a fucking reason?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

But I assumed that Islamic fundamentalists were supportive of the Libyan rebels and the position to remove Gaddafi?

Yes I'd say that too actually. There's the main media speculation that Islamic fundies are behind the attacks, I suppose any kind of attack in a pro-Gaddafi context would be unrelated to these fundies and in that sense it seems like unlikely, leaving the Islamic fundamentalist notion being the most believable.

The whole thing is very strange, that I am sure of. I find it hard to believe a group of Al Qaeda gunmen could pull off dressing as police officers and shoot up the Labour Youth event, but that seems to be the media angle. Strange.

[Kiev Communard]

A possibly connected attack elsewhere at an event run by the Norwegian Worker's Youth League - http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10080590.

Well, after this news it is obvious that this was actually a provocation by Eurosceptic right-wing nationalists to destabilize the social-liberal government of Norway, not an Islamist attack. Still, it is plain who will be chosen as a scapegoat now...

[Princess Luna]

The Gaddafi senario makes no sense, if the attack was in response to NATO's intervention in Libya, why would they attack Norway (one of the least contributing nations) instead of France or America who are the backbones of the intervention?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

The Gaddafi senario makes no sense, if the attack was in response to NATO's intervention in Libya, why would they attack Norway (one of the least contributing nations) instead of France or America who are the backbones of the intervention?

I've heard that Norway has been heavily involved in bombing Libya, but I can't confirm that, and I wouldn't say that the Gaddafi theory has that much weight either. Its just a theory, and the dominant Al Qaeda one seems pretty unbelievable to me too.

[Crux]

Dutch news reports that the Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claim has been retracted.
Link?

[RadioRaheem84]

Maybe it was right wing extremists that are trying to pin it on Islamic radicals in order to instill a greater hatred for the government and Muslims in the country? :confused:

[Salyut]

I ran into a comment saying there was a suspicious person wearing a police uniform in the area just before the bomb went off.

Anyone know more?

[Luc]

Some people have said that the shooter was a tall blond man but, others have said he was wearing a balaclava so you couldn't tell.

From watching BBC I hear there are 7 or 8 confirmed dead because of the bomb and many injured. I'm almost certain it was a car bomb.

As for the shooting...

Aparently the shooter dressed up as a officer and went to the island and said he was investigating or somthing in relation to the bombing in Oslo. He gathered everyone up and he started shooting with a shotgun, a handgun, and an automatic weapon. One eyewitness said there was 20 dead at the youth camp but they kept saying phrases like, "20 bodies" so they could of just been injured on the ground. (they said 20 dead only once). I think amoung the thought dead are younger children.

[Crux]

Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility. I love how the left immediately jumps to the conclusion it's a scapegoat....

And yes, they were aiming for as many deaths as possible. Why else would you enter a camp full of kids and begin firing on them.
Yeah, and someone claiming to represent the DFLP claimed the attacks on the World Trade Center. It's too soon to tell. The expert quoted in swedish Aftonbladet says that the attack on the socialdemocratic youthcamp points away from any islamist group and says it is more likely that it is made by an internal threat, most likely a lone lunatic.

[Sasha]

the shooter is according the foreign minister an Caucasian, so either an convert or the islamist angle is more and more unlikely

[Sasha]

cops claim "local lone wolf with an grudge against the political system", strange how its always "terrorism" when its about muslims and an "incident" when its (rightwing) white guys like McVeigh and Copeland

[OhYesIdid]

This looks less and less like a muslim attack, and more and more like fascist terror. Too soon to tell, though.
Also, why are we all assuming that it's a terrorist dressed up as a policeman? Couldn't it be an individually crazy policeman? Coul it not be a police-wide conspiracy? The prime minister was not on his office and failed to arrive at the youth center.
I'm not crazy, I promise, just throwing it out there.

[eyedrop]

This looks less and less like a muslim attack, and more and more like fascist terror. Too soon to tell, though.
Also, why are we all assuming that it's a terrorist dressed up as a policeman? Couldn't it be an individually crazy policeman? Coul it not be a police-wide conspiracy? The prime minister was not on his office and failed to arrive at the youth center.
I'm not crazy, I promise, just throwing it out there.

Shut up your conspiracy bullshit.

The man was not affliated with the police (it would be stupid of the police to claim that if he was) and the prime minister was not supposed to be there today, but tomorrow.



cops claim "local lone wolf with an grudge against the political system", strange how its always "terrorism" when its about muslims and an "incident" when its (rightwing) white guys like McVeigh and Copeland

Last I heard they claimed it to be several people and not a loner.

[RadioRaheem84]

cops claim "local lone wolf with an grudge against the political system", strange how its always "terrorism" when its about muslims and an "incident" when its (rightwing) white guys like McVeigh and Copeland

It's a changing of the dynamic surrounding the word "terrorist". Since 9/11 the connotation surrounding the word implies, muslim. It's hard these days to think of terrorists being white, when they've largely been white for decades in the press; IRA, Basque ETA, Red Army, McVeigh, abortion clinic bombings, exiled right wing Cubans, Carlos the Jackal, etc.

It should also be noted that the word terrorism itself is loaded and prone to labeled at any group that has beef with the government and retaliates in manners that it doesn't like.

[eyedrop]

Since the attacks seems specifically targeted at AP the radical right seems more likely to be behind it.

[Kamerat]

I heard the explosion a couple of miles away. First thing i thought when I heard what the the sound was caused by was, "damn i have to get trough downtown". Police and army every where guarding key buildings and blocking all roads into the center of the city.

The attacker(s) are directing their attacks agains the ruling party with the attacks on the government office building and their youth camp.

1 person (white, blond, 1.9m, dressed in police cloths) is in police custody for the killings at the youth camp. It can be the same attacker that detonated the bomb near the government build and went on a rampage at the youth camp.

Official 10 killed the at youth camp, more dead in the sea/lake. Unofficial about 40 dead. And 7 dead in the explosion.

[Metacomet]

I heard the explosion a couple of miles away. First thing i thought when I heard what the the sound was caused by was, "damn i have to get trough downtown". Police and army every where guarding key buildings and blocking all roads into the center of the city.

The attacker(s) are directing their attacks agains the ruling party with the attacks on the government office building and their youth camp.

1 person (white, blond, 1.9m, dressed in police cloths) is in police custody for the killings at the youth camp. It can be the same attacker that detonated the bomb near the government build and went on a rampage at the youth camp.

Official 10 killed the at youth camp, more dead in the sea/lake. Unofficial about 40 dead. And 7 dead in the explosion.

Awful. Hope your okay.

[Welshy]

I heard the explosion a couple of miles away. First thing i thought when I heard what the the sound was caused by was, "damn i have to get trough downtown". Police and army every where guarding key buildings and blocking all roads into the center of the city.

The attacker(s) are directing their attacks agains the ruling party with the attacks on the government office building and their youth camp.

1 person (white, blond, 1.9m, dressed in police cloths) is in police custody for the killings at the youth camp. It can be the same attacker that detonated the bomb near the government build and went on a rampage at the youth camp.

Official 10 killed the at youth camp, more dead in the sea/lake. Unofficial about 40 dead. And 7 dead in the explosion.

Is there any info on others who may be involved or who this guy is?

[Crux]

the shooter is according the foreign minister an Caucasian, so either an convert or the islamist angle is more and more unlikely
Indeed, the massacre (the numbers of dead is up to about 20 now) against the norweigian labour party youth does point in a right-wing extremist direction.

[Tjis]

Link?
Dutch news site (nu.nl) sourced http://www.jihadica.com/alleged-claim-for-oslo-attacks/ for both the initial claim and the retraction.

[Triple A]

The island attacker was tall and blonde says BBC.

[Kamerat]

Is there any info on others who may be involved or who this guy is?
The man who went on a killing spree at the youth camp is Norwegian and speaks with an eastern Norwegian dialect. He has been seen in a car dressed in police cloths right before the explosion. Its being claimed he is an right-wing extremist.

[Red Commissar]

The man who went on a killing spree at the youth camp is Norwegian and speaks with an eastern Norwegian dialect. He has been seen in a car dressed in police cloths right before the explosion. Its being claimed he is an right-wing extremist.

Source? That'd at least point away from the "convert" angle. I've only read on sources so far he was "tall and blond".

[Tim Cornelis]

Someone here said it was Vikernes. I don't know him but seeing how he got a verbal warning I suspect it's an internet "joke" or whatever. However, the media in the Netherlands are seriously speculating it was him because it has been speculated on twitter. And also, he said "War" on his facebook page.

[Welshy]

Source? That'd at least point away from the "convert" angle. I've only read on sources so far he was "tall and blond".

This is from the BBC:


2238: Deputy Oslo police chief Sveining Sponheim tells reporters the man under arrest is 32 and "ethnic Norwegian"

[Sasha]

norwegian media dropped the al-qaida angle and is openly speculating about extreme-right involvement, the man arrested is an 32 year old "ethnic norwegian".

i'm really intrested what was the make of the explosives used in the attack, if its ANFO the "lone wolf" claims could still hold some water, if its semtex i susspect an wider conspiracy

[La Comédie Noire]

I love how the mainstream media toned down their rhetoric when they found out it was some Non Muslim white man.

[Tommy4ever]

Are there any noteworthy far right groups, or jsut native groups that would be involved in terrorism, that are potential suspects?

[Ravachol]

The Varg Vikerness angle is a bit too far-fatched imo, first of all Varg is from Western Norway (Bergen) as opposed to



and speaks with an eastern Norwegian dialect


and secondly while Vikerness has a very, very violent past including multiple arsons, attempts to blow up the anti-fascist Blitz squat in Oslo and the Nidaros Cathedral as well as this:



In October 2003, Vikernes failed to return to his low-security prison in Tønsberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%B8nsberg), Norway after having been granted a short leave. He was found riding in a stolen Volvo car, which, according to the media, contained an unloaded AG3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3) automatic rifle, a handgun, numerous large knives, a gas mask, camouflage clothing, a laptop, a compass, a Global Positioning System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System), various maps and a fake passport (it is thought that Vikernes came to be in possession of this equipment by means of a military barracks).


The last public statement by Varg after his release from prison was that he was retreating somewhere in the Norwegian woods and get away from the poisenous modern world or whatever.

As for the Libyan angle, a lot of people here claim it isn't likely because France and the USA are more prominently involved in the operations against Ghadaffi but that's usually not how these kind of things work. The execution of an operation of such magnitude by a foreign actor requires quite a lot of planning and resources, it either requires getting capable operators into the target country (running the risk of detection by domestic intelligence services) or it requires having a sleeper cell already within the country. Usually, when operations like this are executed by a foreign actor (whether state or non-state) they are partly influenced by pure opportunity, eg. having a cell already within a suitable country (even though it's not the primary target) or having leverage over parts of the bureaucratic apparatus that allow one to act within the country.

Personally, the 'McVeigh'-like angle seems most likely. As far as I know Norway has no organized, violent far-right movement like Sweden's SMR with a history of shootings, bombings and arsons and some kind of local version of the Tea Party 'constitutionalist'/'paleoconservative' gone wild seems the most likely.

[Sasha]

besides, varg vikernes is 38 not 32 so its would be very unlikly

[eyedrop]

norwegian media dropped the al-qaida angle and is openly speculating about extreme-right involvement, the man arrested is an 32 year old "ethnic norwegian".

i'm really intrested what was the make of the explosives used in the attack, if its ANFO the "lone wolf" claims could still hold some water, if its semtex i susspect an wider conspiracy

While I have been at work the whole day and haven't followed this I heard that he was picked up by a car in Oslo, so it shouldn't be a completely lone wolf thing.

[Sasha]

apperently 10 years ago an 23 year old neo-nazi was arrested with weapons, explosives and police uniforms: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article231455.ece

[crazyirish93]

norwegian media dropped the al-qaida angle and is openly speculating about extreme-right involvement, the man arrested is an 32 year old "ethnic norwegian".

i'm really intrested what was the make of the explosives used in the attack, if its ANFO the "lone wolf" claims could still hold some water, if its semtex i susspect an wider conspiracyI believe anfo still requires a small detonator charge like TNT or other similar explosives to work.

[Salyut]

I believe anfo still requires a small detonator charge like TNT or other similar explosives to work.

That is indeed the case. However those aren't hard to manufacture. Semtex hasn't been in producton for sometime.

Ammonia nitrate isa controlled substance in Canada - maybe it was stolen mining:confused: explosives.

[RadioRaheem84]

Don't mean to interupt this discussion, but it seems like revleft.com is not working for me and instead I am seeing a revleft.org and totally different new site that bares no resemblence to the original. what's going on?

[Chris]

Are there any noteworthy far right groups, or jsut native groups that would be involved in terrorism, that are potential suspects?
Vigrid, possibly. They went from parliamentary/electioneering after the recent election. Norse neo-nazis (as in, they belive in Odin & Tor and all that, as well as the race thing), situtated in Buskerud (right by Oslo, and where Utøya is).

There also a more underground nazi group in the south-east. Their name is something like Nasjonalsosialistiske Liga (National Socialist League) or something like that. They are VERY underground. See some of their graffti (mostly swastikas on buildings owned by immigrants).
They are also relatively strong in Buskerud, Vestfold and such (south-east, which is pretty much the home of norwegian neonazi movement).

The norwegian surveillance police are far to much into investigating muslim and communist groupings. The phone in the party headquarters is surveiled, as well as some of the private phones of members. Hopefully, they'll actually spend some bloody time on the nazis now.

[Sasha]

Don't mean to interupt this discussion, but it seems like revleft.com is not working for me and instead I am seeing a revleft.org and totally different new site that bares no resemblence to the original. what's going on?


.com is working fine for me so any problem is likely at your end, revleft.org has indeed an other default skin (an more nondescript one), you can change the skin at the very bottom of the page left, the little dragdown menu

[fionntan]

Anders Behring Breivik is the name of the man arrested.

[Crux]

Personally, the 'McVeigh'-like angle seems most likely. As far as I know Norway has no organized, violent far-right movement like Sweden's SMR with a history of shootings, bombings and arsons and some kind of local version of the Tea Party 'constitutionalist'/'paleoconservative' gone wild seems the most likely.
Not sure if it is still active but there used to be a norwegian branch of SMR.

[fionntan]

He describes himself as a "Convservative Christian".

[Rusty Shackleford]

his facebook profile?
(http://www.facebook.com/#%21/profile.php?id=100002651290254)

[fionntan]

Yes got it of an irish republican site..

[Tim Cornelis]

If Anders Behring Breivik is indeed the perpetrator it's more likely he suffers from paranoid schizophrenia or is a conspiracy nut or something alike, judging from his facebook page (On Liberty and 1984 are popular amongst such crowds despite being written by socialists). He doesn't seem to be a far-right advocate.

[Tommy4ever]

This guy also has Plato's Republic and Leviathon on his favourite book list (which reads like a right winger's dream btw). Seems like further evidence to compound our idea of him. It will probably turn out this guys isn't the culprit at all though, I'll wait until his name if made more official.

[fionntan]

It is offical its on the news in ireland even now. He was shot then arrested bomb squad on the island defuseing a smokey at the minute.

[Sasha]

stormfront just went private/logged in users only, coincidence?

[fionntan]

stormfront just went private/logged in users only, coincidence?


:laugh: was on it earlier laying blame on arabs. News broke they closed it scum.

[Bronco]

Daily Mail's run a story on him http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017851/Named-The-blond-Norwegian-32-arrested-holiday-island-massacre-linked-Oslo-bomb-blasts.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

They still managed to spend most of the article talking about why Islamists might be to blame for such an attack though, fucking typical

[Tommy4ever]

So is this the guy who was arrested then and his name is official?

Has anyone else involved been detected?

[Nox]

Who could be behind this?


An extremist right wing group fits the profile, I mean you have to be pretty extreme to blow up a building :cool:

[Sasha]

:laugh: was on it earlier laying blame on arabs. News broke they closed it scum.

they are now reluctantly discussing the possibility is was one of their lot, i give them a few more minutes before they sieze on the fact he is/was an freemason and come full circle to Ze JeWz! again

[Tommy4ever]

https://twitter.com/#!/AndersBBreivik

Someone linked this on another forum I'm on.

Clearly trying to write something quotable for his fascist friends, likely expecting to be killed in this vile escapade.

[fionntan]

Over here they would support the free masons and the Orange Order seems the great white hopes dont know who to hate???

[Chris]

If it is Ander Behring Breivik (which it seems to be), then it's not a neo-nazi. The bastard is the owner of Breivik Geofarm (company that has around 800 employees I've heard), and is a conservative capitalist.

[fionntan]

the guy standing up appears to be the gunman

[RedAnarchist]

stormfront just went private/logged in users only, coincidence?

I created an account to see something - they had one thread going on about Muslims, not surprisingly. Of course, they won't want to admit that one of their degenerate lot did it. I've found an even longer thread now, and are actually at one point wondering if the Norwegian PM is Jewish simply because of his surname ending in -berg! These people are beyond idiotic.

[Bronco]

they are now reluctantly discussing the possibility is was one of their lot, i give them a few more minutes before they sieze on the fact he is/was an freemason and come full circle to Ze JeWz! again

Right on cue, they're starting to talk about it being a Freemason, Zionist, false flag operation now

[RedAnarchist]

I'm reading their thread, and I can't believe how blind and stupid these people are. I seriously think if a Neo-Nazi was shooting at them, they would claim he was a Muslim or Jewish until they died.

[fionntan]

I just watched a programe on the comunity chanal i think it was about russian nazis these people need to be stopped ASAP by all means.what happened today/yesterday is the result of this shit.

[Metacomet]

How come whenever something like this happens the media rhetoric turns to a "loner" thing, and not as a byproduct of far-right conservatism. But if a extreme Muslim does something, it is apparently a product of the whole religion?

So the suspect watches Battlestar Galactica, plays WOW and Call of Duty before/after he invests and reads Adam Smith and "The Prince"?

[Red Commissar]

the guy standing up appears to be the gunman

I've not seen this picture. Where is it from?

[RedAnarchist]

How come whenever something like this happens the media rhetoric turns to a "loner" thing, and not as a byproduct of far-right conservatism. But if a extreme Muslim does something, it is apparently a product of the whole religion?

I would assume that a big part of it is that Muslims are the current scapegoat of Western society, much like the Jewish in the 19th and early 20th centuries, or communists in the 20th.

[Chris]

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10080610&fb_ref=vgart_fbshare&fb_source=home_oneline
Norwegian newsarticle about the shooter. The newspaper in question was actually in the bombed area, and had to work from a nearby hotel.

It mentions the bastard was critical of islam, and the news for not being critical enough of islam. It also says he thought that the political difference no longer was socialism versus capitalism, but internationalism versus nationalism. He called himself a nationalist in that regard.

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017851/Named-The-blond-Norwegian-32-arrested-holiday-island-massacre-linked-Oslo-bomb-blasts.html

Can someone please tell me why this Daily Mail article keeps going on about Islamic terrorism and has little about the killer or right wing extremism which plagues Norway more than Islamic extremism?

[Salyut]

Above link isn't working so...edit: its working now. (http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Andres+Behring+Breivik+named+suspect+Oslo+bombing+ Report/5146964/story.html)

His FB page. (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002651290254)

[RedAnarchist]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017851/Named-The-blond-Norwegian-32-arrested-holiday-island-massacre-linked-Oslo-bomb-blasts.html

Can someone please tell me why this Daily Mail article keeps going on about Islamic terrorism and has little about the killer or right wing extremism which plagues Norway more than Islamic extremism?

Imagine a newspaper that sounds like it gets it's articles from Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell and Nick Griffin, that should give you some idea of the Daily Fail.

[Chris]

Imagine a newspaper that sounds like it gets it's articles from Oswald Mosley, Enoch Powell and Nick Griffin, that should give you some idea of the Daily Fail.
Well, it does have something to do with islam. The terrorist was an extreme islamophobe. Would probably have been a Mail reader if he was british.

[Feodor Augustus]

That the media jumped all over this as an Islamic terrorist attack, keeping up that front despite the fact that he attacked a young socialists retreat and even after he was identified as an 'Aryan' looking man, just shows (demographics aside) how stupidly unthinking they are. It looked, smelt and tasted like the work of a right-wing nut job from pretty much the moment the story broke. But logic rarely gets in the way of a racist assumption...

The Scum has gone with the headline '"Al Qaeda" attack: Norway's 9/11'. And CNN was still talking about Islamic terrorists a good twenty minutes after an AP report had quoted an anonymous Norwegian police official who said it didn't appear to be the work of Islamic terrorists, and long after the gunman had been identified as an 'ethnic Norwegian'.


If it is Ander Behring Breivik (which it seems to be), then it's not a neo-nazi. The bastard is the owner of Breivik Geofarm (company that has around 800 employees I've heard), and is a conservative capitalist.

From the article linked earlier in the thread (http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Andres%20Behring%20Breivik%20named%20suspect%20Osl o%20bombing%20Report/5146964/story.html):


...the Twitter account [of Andres Behring Breivik] has one post: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests."

And from a forum thread I found after googling the name of his company (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/942843-Official-Thread-Explosion-in-Norway-Oslo?p=12375288):


So I did some detective work...

In May 2009 he founded a company called Breivik Geofarm, a small farm where he produced watermelons and a few other things. Why? To have unlimited access to inorganic fertilizers, which he most likely used to explode the bomb in Oslo. Can't post links because I haven't posted enough times, just google Breivik Geofarm.

But it doesn't stop there. He bought the farm at a strategic posission: Close to a military landingstrip. Why? To have the noice reduced of his testbombs over the sound of jets. In the coming days though, neighbours will come say they've heard loud noises every now and then without thinking too much about it.

Other than that you can tell alot about this guy by his facebookpage and his listed books and other interests.

If ever there was an argument for the death penalty... although this guy will probably end up pleading insanity, and live out the rest of his days in an institution with padded cells and tranquil gardens. Murderous bastard.

Not that any of the victims families are likely to ever read this, but my deepest condolences all the same.

[Luc]

From watching Connect with Marc Kelly on CBC:

Aparrently the guy was a conservative who lived with his mom in the "richer" or "better off" part of Oslo (I forget their exact words).

The gunman is confirmed to be ethnically Norwegian.

Also, atleast 9 confirmed dead at camp (they said atleast) and 7 from blast.

Just thought I'd add what I have just learned though it has preety much been all already said.

In all fairness the major terrorist attacks in the past decade have come from islamic extremists and I think they mentioned that Norway or atleast Oslo hasn't had right-wing terrorist attacks in awhile. Atleast thats what they said.

is their alot of right-wing terrorism in Norway (recently)?

But, I do agree that they overreact.

[Bronco]

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minervanett.no%2F2010%2F01%2F27 %2Fdet-imperfektes-politikk%2F&act=url

The person commenting under this article under the name "Anders B" is the gunman apparently, gives an insight into his politics

[Feodor Augustus]

Sky News is still reporting this as a possible Al Qaeda plot and attack!? :confused:

Journalism of such a low quality makes it hard to tell the stupid from the malicious...

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The person commenting under this article under the name "Anders B" is the gunman apparently, gives an insight into his politics



Jeg registrerer dog at både Aftenposten (som nå ledes av kulturmarxisten Hilde Haugsgjerd)

I didn't know the concept of "cultural marxism" existed outside of the United States. Is this because he has been inspired by U.S. politics or is it a concept that is actually prevalent in Norway? I can't recall having heard the term used by right wing nutters here in Sweden.

[Chris]

Shit. The latest casualty estimate from Utøya is now 80. 80 youth, killed in cold fucking blood. Shit.
I knew some of the people there, luckily they survived.

[RedAnarchist]

Shit. The latest casualty estimate from Utøya is now 80. 80 youth, killed in cold fucking blood. Shit.
I knew some of the people there, luckily they survived.

I fear that the toll will rise more. I just hope we find out why this had to happen, why this man blew up and shot dead so many innocents.

[Chris]

I fear that the toll will rise more. I just hope we find out why this had to happen, why this man blew up and shot dead so many innocents.
Yeah. But... 80 people? Now I'm pretty certain there must be more gunmen. There were only 560 people on the island at the time. And the bastard used revolver and shotgun. Fuck, had nearly hoped it was just some lone nutter.

EDIT:


I didn't know the concept of "cultural marxism" existed outside of the United States. Is this because he has been inspired by U.S. politics or is it a concept that is actually prevalent in Norway? I can't recall having heard the term used by right wing nutters here in Sweden.
Not really prevalent. Mostly used by the Progress Party (right-wing populists, dont let the name fool you), who claims that Norway is the "last soviet state" and that social-democracy = soviet style communism. And that the intellectual elite are just a bunch of commies. Apparently, the gunman was a member of their youth league (no info if he was still a member).

[Salyut]

Yeah. But... 80 people? Now I'm pretty certain there must be more gunmen. There were only 560 people on the island at the time. And the bastard used revolver and shotgun. Fuck, had nearly hoped it was just some lone nutter.

A number of people tried swimming away. I suspect drowning victims got tallied into the body count.

[Rusty Shackleford]

this guy could not have pulled that off on his own.

[Red Commissar]

Shit. The latest casualty estimate from Utøya is now 80. 80 youth, killed in cold fucking blood. Shit.
I knew some of the people there, luckily they survived.

Yeah, the police say at least 80 now.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/us-norway-blast-toll-idUSTRE76M0AU20110723

I really hope that number doesn't get any larger :(

[Raightning]

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but this is apparently the Sun's front page tomorrow (or at least it was):
http://i.imgur.com/1JUJ6.jpg
Scum. Fucking scum.

[La Comédie Noire]

They still managed to spend most of the article talking about why Islamists might be to blame for such an attack though, fucking typical

Look at this article from CNN posted only about an hour ago.


Initial speculation that al Qaeda might have been involved has not been disproved, but was unsubstantiated and therefore premature. The only person thus far implicated in the attack was a Norwegian citizen who may have been associated with right-wing political activists, but it is not clear whether he was working alone or why he conducted such a merciless assault.

LOL.

[Metacomet]

I think all Christian conservatives should denounce this. Otherwise it would indicate that they support it.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Here's a mirror of his facebook page:

http://publicintelligence.net/mirror-of-ut%C3%B8ya-gunman-anders-behring-breiviks-facebook-page-and-photo-gallery/

It states that he's a director of Breivik Geofarm, which, according to its homepage, is used to grow various vegetables and whatnot. Probably where he got the fertilizer for the explosives:

http://w2.brreg.no/enhet/sok/detalj.jsp?orgnr=994089269

[Welshy]

Here's a post from reddit that contained a lot of info and links


edit {01:05 UTC}: Norwegian police now say at least 80 killed in shootings at Utøya. Police say killings are of “catastrophic dimensions”, may rise above 80.
[1] More info here (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firik s%2Farticle4180985.ece) & [2] here (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NORWAY_EXPLOSION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-22-22-16-59)
edit {01:05 UTC}: To make room for more updates, due to the 10,000 char. limit and the very sad news coming out of Norway, I have had to remove the timeline of events from this comment, up to the 20:00 UTC mark. They are [3] still available here (http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/iwwz0/shootings_in_ut%C3%B8ya_norway_a_youth_camp_for_a/c27e00w)
.
.
.
.
[Start]
tl;dr:


A 32yo armed Norwegian man entered a youth camp on an island close to Oslo and opened fire, killing at least 10 80 with 13 unknown numbers more in serious condition.
He was captured alive and is now being questioned at the local police station.
More undetonated explosives have been found at the camp.
He has also been linked to the bombing in Oslo.
He is part of some right wing groups in Norway.
He had his own company, dealing with geo-farming, which would explain access to explosives.

[4] More info here (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2011%2F07%2F22%2 Fnyheter%2Futoya%2Fterror%2Foslo%2F17415425%2F) & [5] here (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bt.no%2Fnyheter%2Finnenriks%2FS iste-nytt-om-terroraksjonen-i-Oslo-2541315.html) & [6] here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705) & [7] here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/22/oslo-explosion-live-coverage)
This is all happening on an island called [8] Utøya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ut%C3%B8ya) and there are approx. 560 attending the camp. Many more people were at the camp today to listen to [9] Gro Harlem Brundtland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro_Harlem_Brundtland), who was holding a review of her political career.
The shooting is ongoing and there are unconfirmed reports that five people have been shot.
For events up to 20:00 UTC [10] click here (http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/iwwz0/shootings_in_ut%C3%B8ya_norway_a_youth_camp_for_a/c27e00w)
edit16 {20:00 UTC}: "Acting Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim in Oslo says the shooter had also been spotted in the capital prior to the explosions." [11] source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705)
edit {20:15 UTC}: Oslo police spokesman Ander Frydenberg has told the BBC the shooter is currently being questioned at a local police station in Utoeya.
edit {20:29 UTC}: [12] @runehak (http://twitter.com/#%21/runehak/status/94503988812189696): Ullevål hospital have recived 8 seriously injured people from Utøya.
edit {20:32 UTC}: An [13] aerial video shows (http://www.nrk.no/playout/v1.1/flashplayer.ashx?v=0220D2DD31115696&w=576&rand=129 558396309006390) police boats landing on Utøya, youths running to safety.
edit {20:37 UTC}: A terrorism expert tells the BBC that Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, a terror group that claimed responsibility for the explosion in Oslo, was not behind the attack. [14] source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705)
edit {21:05 UTC}: The justice minister [15] has confirmed (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NORWAY_EXPLOSION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-22-16-55-37) the suspect arrested today at the youth camp in Utoeya was Norwegian.
edit {21:12 UTC}: Police have linked the suspect they are holding to both attacks. [16] source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/22/oslo-explosion-live-coverage)
edit {21:25 UTC}: [17] @REUTERSFLASH (http://twitter.com/#%21/REUTERSFLASH/status/94518034835845120): Oslo police say expect death toll in shooting expected to rise from 10.
edit {21:35 UTC}: [18] @REUTERSFLASH (http://twitter.com/#%21/REUTERSFLASH/status/94520601208819712): Oslo police say undetonated explosives found at island where gunman fired at youths.
edit {21:39 UTC}: Channel 4 News [19] has learned (http://www.channel4.com/news/several-injured-in-youth-camp-shooting-near-oslo?x=8906788) there are a further 13 people "heavily injured".
edit {21:54 UTC}: "On BBC's Newsnight Security Correspondent Gordon Corera says a youth rally is not a usual type of target for an Islamist terrorist - a factor which suggests the attacks may have been carried out by someone with a national agenda, but he points out that the car bombing in Oslo was big, so it would have been a lot for someone working alone to achieve." [20] source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/22/oslo-explosion-live-coverage)
edit {21:57 UTC}: The shooter is 32. Ethnic Norwegian. Norwegian citizen. He is now beeing interrogated by the police. No motiv is stated by shooter. No connections to terrorist organizations stated by shooter. 10 people confirmed shot. More dead expected to be found. 7 killed in bombing downtown. ([21] Source (https://plus.google.com/118159310368022553224/posts?hl=en): Official police representative on state television)
edit {22:00 UTC}:
"På en dag som dette er det igjen viktig å huske på at handlinger som dette ikke blir utført av raser eller hudfarger, av stater eller verdensdeler, men av enkeltpersoner og grupper som har mistet fokus på det viktige i verden: Samhold, omsorg, forståelse, empati og kjærlighet."
"On a day such as this it is once again important to remember that acts such as this are not committed by races or colors of skin, by states or continents, but by individuals and groups who have lost focus on the important things in the world: unity, caring, understanding, empathy and love" [22] source (https://plus.google.com/110668479729372555286/posts?hl=en)
edit {22:27 UTC}: About half an hour ago police raided a building linked to the arrested Norwegian. [23] source (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2011%2F07%2F23%2 Fnyheter%2Fdrap%2Fterrorisme%2F17422293%2F&act=url)
edit {22:34 UTC}: [24] Image (http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174224/17422476/jpg/active/978x.jpg)
[25] http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174224/17422476/jpg/active/978x.jpg (http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174224/17422476/jpg/active/978x.jpg)

of the police outside the building after the raid. edit {22:42 UTC}: A Swedish terorr expert had said that "This does not fit Al Qaeda's style. Had it only been a bombing, it would be natural to connect it to Islamic extremism. Now we have shootings at the Labour Party's youth camp as well, and it changes the whole picture." [26] source (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Furik s%2Farticle4180937.ece)
edit {22:42 UTC}: Warning Graphic[NSFL] [27] Aerial screencap of the killer surrounded by bodies (http://i.imgur.com/KgUmy.jpg)
[28] http://i.imgur.com/KgUmy.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/KgUmy.jpg)

edit {22:49 UTC}: "10 confirmed dead after Utøya shootings, while 38 are being treated for gunshot wounds (several of which are in coma)." [29] source (http://twitter.com/#%21/ketilbstensrud/status/94538485184200704)
edit {22:51 UTC}: [30] First image (http://twitpic.com/5u7kw5) of the shooter is out.
edit {23:03 UTC}: Sky News is reporting that the gunman's name is Anders Behring Breivik.
edit {23:22 UTC}: From the supposed twitter account of the gunman: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests."
final edit {23:32 UTC}: I've edited down some of the above as I hit the 100000 character limit. So that's all from me. Goodnight.
[end]

[The Vegan Marxist]

Was there any Norwegian comrades here on RevLeft that was at this camp? I seriously hope not. :(

[RadioRaheem84]

Jesus, 80! No way was this some lone nutter, this was a calculated right wing attack.

[Raightning]

Was there any Norwegian comrades here on RevLeft that was at this camp? I seriously hope not. :(
Despite the name, the Worker's Youth League is a social-democratic organisation, so probably not.

I feel incredibly physically sick. It's just a 'perfect' fucking storm in so many ways.

[MattShizzle]

So after things like this and McVeigh in 1995, why aren't right wing Christians being rounded up to gitmo? Oh yeah, too many with powerful friends in government and they have too much money.

[svenne]

This isn't a thread for irony, or making stupid remarks on conservatives. At least 80 kids/young adults, just in their beginning of the adult life (and politics) has been brutally murdered. Please keep a good tone, and remember that while propably no members of revleft has been attacked, it isn't entirely impossible that they have friends or family who was. How stupid or irrelevant it may be, i still feel that the only thing that can be said is that they may rest in peace.

[aty]

So after things like this and McVeigh in 1995, why aren't right wing Christians being rounded up to gitmo? Oh yeah, too many with powerful friends in government and they have too much money.
This is totally different from McVeigh as this was directly aimed at the socialist movement.

[Commissar Rykov]

This was awful and makes me utterly sick. What is wrong with these nationalist nuts?:(

[tachosomoza]

80 kids....sickening. Parents sent them away to learn and have fun, and they come back in body bags. I can only imagine...

[Lobotomy]

Fucking kids man, they were just kids. I can't believe this.

[Pretty Flaco]

All I can say is that's very frightening.

[Commissar Rykov]

All I can say is that's very frightening.

It is beyond frightening when you think about groups like the Tea Party encouraging such behavior here in the States. The problem with these nationalist organizations regardless of nation is the fact they constantly encourage or suggest violence when things don't go their way over the most ludicrous reasons. This is exactly why Nationalism needs to be smashed it is a danger to humanity and is a poison to the mind.

[tachosomoza]

The really dumb thing is that people were in such a rush to blame Muslim immigrants. Can you imagine the backlash that would have happened to them if they didn't catch an ethnic Norwegian man at the island incident?

[Commissar Rykov]

The really dumb thing is that people were in such a rush to blame Muslim immigrants. Can you imagine the backlash that would have happened to them if they didn't catch an ethnic Norwegian man at the island incident?

I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the entire point of the scheme to incite racial violence. It is a pretty common ploy amongst the Far Right they just thankfully suck at getting away with it. Still he will be turned into a loon lonewolf instead of the product of Conservative society that riles people up towards ethnic violence as a solution.

[tachosomoza]

^ True, true. I still can't get over all those fucking kids being mown down like animals. I can't even imagine sending my kid away for a learning and fun experience and having him or her come back to me with their brains blown out. I'd have to suppress the urge to....you know. This pisses me off to no end.

[Kamerat]

Now 84 is confirmed killed at the youth camp. 91 total.
http://www.nrk.no/ is the most reliable and most frequently updated source.

[cowslayer]

84 kids? That is fucked up.........

News like this just makes you sick.

[tachosomoza]

There had to be more than one shooter...I can't imagine one guy doing all that.

[Kamerat]

Hes connected with NDL (Norwegian Defense League, EDL's sister group). So hes fash.

[Delenda Carthago]

It is beyond frightening when you think about groups like the Tea Party encouraging such behavior here in the States. The problem with these nationalist organizations regardless of nation is the fact they constantly encourage or suggest violence when things don't go their way over the most ludicrous reasons. This is exactly why Nationalism needs to be smashed it is a danger to humanity and is a poison to the mind.

When that tea party scumbag shot the democratic senator(if I recall)in November, I told in here that there should be a political answer about it. It makes me sick that nothing happened. I hope this time a retaliation will pop up. Cause its no use of crying over it in revleft, you have to give political answers on crimes like these.

[Kiev Communard]

Now 84 is confirmed killed at the youth camp. 91 total.
http://www.nrk.no/ is the most reliable and most frequently updated source.

What!!! This seems to be the most sickening and abhorrent massacre I have heard about... Of course, some Neo-Nazis would still justify it, saying that he was "killing the enemy followers":cursing:.

[Shropshire Socialist]

They are now saying that the gunman was a Christian fundamentalist with links to the far right. So that's blown the "all terrorism is caused by Muslims" argument out of the water.

Very sad news and distressing for a nation like Norway.

[Crux]

Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility. I love how the left immediately jumps to the conclusion it's a scapegoat....

And yes, they were aiming for as many deaths as possible. Why else would you enter a camp full of kids and begin firing on them.
I love how some people just run with the hype and then feel content to critisize "the left".

[RedAnarchist]

I've been looking more at the scumfront thread, and they're still trying to call him a Zionist or a Freemason, still trying to justify that a white man couldn't have done this alone or without help from the Jewish. They're pretending to care about the murdered children, but it's so transparent.

[bricolage]

The SWP are claiming he was inspired by the EDL. (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25501)

[RedAntifa]

Although it goes without saying, this is absolutely horrible, and my heart goes out to those who have lost someone. RIP. :(

[Crux]

The witness reports from island are now pointing towards there being a second shooter.

[Ravachol]

Hes connected with NDL (Norwegian Defense League, EDL's sister group). So hes fash.

link? It seems Anti-Islamist blogs confirm this though:

http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-was-in-contact.html

[Invader Zim]

This is truly unbelievable.

[Bronco]

The SWP are claiming he was inspired by the EDL. (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25501)

Libcom are saying the same (http://libcom.org/blog/norwegian-spree-killer-had-edl-links-23072011), although I've also heard that the EDL carried out a revenge attack on a Mosque last night believing Islamists were to blame, can't find anything online about this though

[Tim Cornelis]

Fox News reported he called the Dutch Party For Freedom of Geert Wilders the only true conservative party... But then again, Fox News.

[GPDP]

I know I've been very vocal about the death penalty and how it should be abolished, and I still stick to that.

However, at this very moment, let it be known no tear of mine would be shed were a bullet to be placed between this scumbag's eyes.

[RED DAVE]

OSLO (Reuters) - A suspected far-right gunman in police uniform killed at least 84 people in a ferocious attack on a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling Labor party, hours after a bomb killed seven in Oslo.

Witnesses said the gunman, identified by police as a 32-year-old Norwegian, moved across the small, wooded island of Utoeya in a lake northwest of Oslo Friday, firing at young people who scattered in panic or tried to swim to safety.

Police detained the tall, blond suspect, named by local media as Anders Behring Breivik, and charged him for the killing spree and the bombing of government buildings in Oslo.

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, capturing the shock this normally quiet nation of 4.8 million is experiencing, said: "A paradise island has been transformed into a hell."

Deputy Police Chief Roger Andresen would not speculate on the motives for what was believed to be the deadliest attack by a lone gunman anywhere in modern times.

"He describes himself as a Christian, leaning toward right-wing Christianity, on his Facebook page," Andresen said.

Initial speculation after the Oslo blast had focused on Islamist militant groups, but it appears that only Breivik -- and perhaps unidentified associates -- was involved.

Home-grown right-wing militancy has generated occasional attacks elsewhere, notably in the United States, where Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with a truck bomb at a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, among many world leaders, condemned the Norway attacks. "This tragedy strikes right at the heart of the soul of a peaceful people," she said.

Andresen, the deputy police chief, said the casualty toll could still rise. "As of now we have 84 dead at Utoeya," he said. "In Oslo, with the explosion and the impact it had, we are not yet sure if that number is final. At Utoeya, the water is still being searched for more victims."

Teenagers at the lakeside camp fled screaming in panic, many leaping into the water to save themselves, when the assailant began spraying them with gunfire, witnesses said.

"I just saw people jumping into the water, about 50 people swimming toward the shore. People were crying, shaking, they were terrified," said Anita Lien, 42, who lives by Tyrifjord lake, a few hundred meters (yards) from Utoeya.

"They were so young, between 14 and 19 years old."

Survivor Jorgen Benone said: "It was total chaos...I think several lost their lives as they tried to get over to the mainland.

"I saw people being shot. I tried to sit as quietly as possible. I was hiding behind some stones. I saw him once, just 20, 30 metres away from me. I thought 'I'm terrified for my life', I thought of all the people I love.

"I saw some boats but I wasn't sure if I could trust them. I didn't know who I could trust any more."

"We had all gathered in the main house to talk about what had happened in Oslo. Suddenly we heard shots. First we thought it was nonsense. Then everyone started running," one survivor, a 16-year-old called Hana, told Norway's Aftenposten.

"I saw a policeman stand there with earplugs. He said 'I'd like to gather everyone'. Then he ran in and started shooting at people. We ran down toward the beach and began to swim."

Hana said the gunman fired at people in the water.

Many sought shelter in buildings as shots echoed across the island that was hosting the annual camp for the youth wing of the Labor Party, the dominant force in politics since World War Two. Others fled into the woods or tried to swim to safety.

Stoltenberg said he knew many of the victims personally. "I know the young people and I know their parents," he said.

"And what hurts more is that this place where I have been every summer since 1979, and where I have experienced joy, commitment and security, has been hit by brutal violence -- a youth paradise has been transformed into a hell."

"What happened at Utoeya is a national tragedy," he said. "Not since World War Two has our country seen a greater crime."

EXPLOSIVES FOUND ON ISLAND

The bomb, which shook Oslo's center in mid-afternoon, blew out the windows of the prime minister's building and damaged the finance and oil ministry buildings.

Police found undetonated explosives on Utoeya, a pine-clad island about 500 metres long.

Breivik's Facebook page appeared to have been blocked by late Friday. Earlier, it had listed interests including bodybuilding, conservative politics and freemasonry.

Norwegian media said he had set up a Twitter account a few days ago and posted a single message on July 17 saying: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

About 10 policemen were outside the address registered to his name in a four-storey red brick building in west Oslo.

The Norwegian daily Verdens Gang quoted a friend as saying he became a right-wing extremist in his late 20s. It said he expressed strong nationalistic views in online debates and had been a strong opponent of multi-cultural ism.

Oslo was quiet but tense after Friday's bombing in the government district littered streets with shattered masonry, glass and twisted steel. Police sealed off the area.

The district attacked is the heart of power in Norway. But security is not tight in a country unused to such violence and better known for awarding the Nobel Peace Prize and mediating in conflicts, including the Middle East and Sri Lanka.

A Utoeya survivor said she was still in shock. "I cannot squeeze out one tear. I cannot believe it," wrote 23-year-old student Khamshajiny Gunaratnam on her blog.

She said participants in the summer camp were just digesting news of the Oslo bombing when they heard shooting.

"'Who the hell is that joker?' we thought. Who would have thought that it actually wasn't a joke?"

Terrified, Gunaratnam hid in toilets in the main building and then fled to the shore. "We fell and stumbled through a lot of bushes and large rocks. I got many scratches."

When the shooting came closer, she jumped into the cold water and was eventually picked up by a rescue boat.

"Even when we had reached the boat, I could not relax...He could still hit us with his machinegun!" Gunaratnam wrote. I did not feel safe. Not at all."

(Additional reporting by Gwladys Fouche, Victoria Klesty, Henrik Stoelen and Ole Petter Skonnord in Oslo, William Maclean in London and Patrick Lannin in Stockholm; Writing by Alistair Lyon; editing by David Stamp) http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/us-norway-blast-idUSTRE76L2VI20110723

RED DAVE

[Tim Cornelis]

There had to be more than one shooter...I can't imagine one guy doing all that.

Well, there was no where to run for these kids they were on an island and he had 45 minutes to massacre these people before the authorities arrived. Though I also heard on Belgium news they were/are looking for a second shooter.

(But no witnesses stated they had seen two as far as I know).

[CHE with an AK]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/313831/thumbs/s-ANDERS-BEHRING-BREIVIK-large.jpg


On a Facebook account Breivik describes himself as having Christian, conservative views. He says he enjoys hunting, the games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and lives in Oslo. He also lists political analysis and stock analysis as interests.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/anders-behring-breivik-id_n_907513.html

[LewisQ]

The witness reports from island are now pointing towards there being a second shooter.
Eyewitnesses say that everytime there's a mass shooting anywhere, though. It's understandable, in the confusion.

[CHE with an AK]

Norwegian TV2 reports that Breivik belongs to "ring-wing circles" in Oslo. Swedish news site Expressen adds that he has been known to write to right-wing forums in Norway, is a self-described nationalist and has also written a number of posts critical of Islam.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/oslo-norway-bombing_n_907319.html

[Wanted Man]

Fox News reported he called the Dutch Party For Freedom of Geert Wilders the only true conservative party... But then again, Fox News.

Yeah, this was mentioned in Dutch media as well. In that light, it's fair to say that the "Nazi" angle is wrong too. It seems pretty clear that the perpetrator is a Christian conservative, inspired by Euro populist national conservatism, with a very specific preoccupation with Islamic immigration. His heroes include Geert Wilders, Winston Churchill and a Norwegian anti-nazi resistance fighter. He is also apparently a Freemason. The party that he used to support is also more of a libertarian-style anti-immigration type. The only commonality that any of these have with Nazis is that they both oppose immigration.

I don't know if they will ever find any statements on Israel or the Jews by the perpetrator, but in the light of the above, it seems much more likely that they would be pro-Israeli viewpoints and not anti-semitic ones. Apparently, on some Israeli media comment panels (see, for instance, here (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynet.co.il%2FExt%2FAp p%2FTalkBack%2FCdaViewOpenTalkBack%2F0%2C11382%2CL-4098815%2C00.html&sl=iw&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)), there was a lot of joy about these attacks because Norway's government is pro-Palestine. Of course, we all know that that can't possibly be true (for sure, I haven't seen any media mentioning it), because only teh evil Arabs celebrate terrorist attacks.

The "Jihadi" claim was put forward by Will McCants, some guy who runs a blog that supposedly documents the Jihadi danger around the world. He claims to have access to pro-terrorist Arabic forums from which he translates, but of course we can't see the evidence. Nevertheless, among others, the New York Times immediately copied his claims. More on so-called "terror experts" here: http://electronicintifada.net/blog/benjamin-doherty/how-clueless-terrorism-expert-set-media-suspicion-muslims-after-oslo-horror

What none of the experts have foreseen (or dared to say) is the harsh reality: that this is (to my knowledge) the first open terrorist attack perpetrated by European national conservatism/populism. The American variety already had its first blood in Tucson, Arizona, and now their friends across the pond have also produced a "lone wolf" gunman. In this case, the social-democratic politicians and their children were the first targets.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yeah, this was mentioned in Dutch media as well. In that light, it's fair to say that the "Nazi" angle is wrong too. It seems pretty clear that the perpetrator is a Christian conservative, inspired by Euro populist national conservatism, with a very specific preoccupation with Islamic immigration. His heroes include Geert Wilders, Winston Churchill and a Norwegian anti-nazi resistance fighter. He is also apparently a Freemason. The party that he used to support is also more of a libertarian-style anti-immigration type. The only commonality that any of these have with Nazis is that they both oppose immigration.

I don't know if they will ever find any statements on Israel or the Jews by the perpetrator, but in the light of the above, it seems much more likely that they would be pro-Israeli viewpoints and not anti-semitic ones. Apparently, on some Israeli media comment panels (see, for instance, here (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynet.co.il%2FExt%2FAp p%2FTalkBack%2FCdaViewOpenTalkBack%2F0%2C11382%2CL-4098815%2C00.html&sl=iw&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)), there was a lot of joy about these attacks because Norway's government is pro-Palestine. Of course, we all know that that can't possibly be true (for sure, I haven't seen any media mentioning it), because only teh evil Arabs celebrate terrorist attacks.

The "Jihadi" claim was put forward by Will McCants, some guy who runs a blog that supposedly documents the Jihadi danger around the world. He claims to have access to pro-terrorist Arabic forums from which he translates, but of course we can't see the evidence. Nevertheless, among others, the New York Times immediately copied his claims. More on so-called "terror experts" here: http://electronicintifada.net/blog/benjamin-doherty/how-clueless-terrorism-expert-set-media-suspicion-muslims-after-oslo-horror

What none of the experts have foreseen (or dared to say) is the harsh reality: that this is (to my knowledge) the first open terrorist attack perpetrated by European national conservatism/populism. The American variety already had its first blood in Tucson, Arizona, and now their friends across the pond have also produced a "lone wolf" gunman. In this case, the social-democratic politicians and their children were the first targets.

Not entirely true, John Ausonius and Franz Fuchs killed 1 and 4 people respectively motivated by xenophobia. However, national conservatism seems to have grown much since the 1990s (when they started their 'campaign').

Also, wasn't there a xenophobic sniper in Malmö, Sweden in 2009 and 2010?

[maskerade]

i'm utterly horrified about this. I can't imagine how anyone could shoot unarmed kids trapped on an island. It's sickening and brings tears to my eyes.

Regardless, did we really expect the media not to jump on the 'al-qaeda / islamic terrorism' bandwagon? One of the leading papers here in Sweden had an article today saying that the attack followed the blueprint of an al-qaeda attack, even though they must've been aware of the attacker's political views and ethnicity when they went to print. This is a terrorist attack and not some lone gunman, and it is our job to spread the information that mass media wont.

[CHE with an AK]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c4/Anders_Behring_Breivik.jpg/180px-Anders_Behring_Breivik.jpg (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/File:Anders_Behring_Breivik.jpg) ... the face of a cowardly right-wing murderous shitbag.

[aty]

Also, wasn't there a xenophobic sniper in Malmö, Sweden in 2009 and 2010?
YES! This winter he shot many people.
He come from exactly the same environment. He is believed to have killed over 3 persons and shot between 20-40.

[Wanted Man]

First of all, thanks for the correction on the last page. I do, however, think that there is a difference between murdering someone for being an immigrant, and perpetrating two massive terrorist attacks. But that's probably pretty subjective.

There was also some stuff about a possible second suspect. To what extent is it possible to shoot 85 people single-handedly? Surely that would make it a particularly bloody example of a killing spree. But I suppose it's possible when you're on a tiny island (http://www.modulus.se/Photography/mirror/18169227_qRqzMn#1395650226_fV95Tjg-X2-LB) with 700 people including many children, with little possibility of escape. It's pretty sickening to think about at any rate.

[RadioRaheem84]

The utter hypocrisy of the media to not label this a terrorist attack is appalling. Now it's just an incident perpetrated by a lone madman. This was right wing terror aimed specifically at people deemed to be "socialist". The same type of terror people in Cuba or during the Sandanistas faced while being terrorized by similar murderous men funded by the US Government.

[Invader Zim]

that this is (to my knowledge) the first open terrorist attack perpetrated by European national conservatism/populism.

David Copeland, the London Nail bomber, is a BNP fanatic who orchastrated a bombing campaign in London to target the migrant and gay populations. I don't know if he is the kind of invidual you had in mind. He wanted to create a race war which would result in British whites voting BNP and ultimately expelling or, in suppose in his sick fantasy, killing the British migrant (regardless of generation) population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland

[Luc]

can't link sorry but...

MSN news says police are investigating "witness accounts of second shooter". I hope there is only one.

It also calls him a christian fundamentalist. I didn't think they would even mention that he was conservative and christian or suggest that is why he did it.

[Meridian]

I am living there but am unhurt.

The biggest tragedy at this point is what happened at Utøya. 80-90 people are now confirmed dead, this number will probably increase.

Utøya island was the location for youth camps for various political parties (including marxists). The youth party for Labor had camp there yesterday when the shit went down, there was nearly 700 people there. They were stuck on the island with the fully armed right-wing extremist and many attempted to swim the 600 meters towards mainland. It must have been absolute hell.

One perpetrator is caught (the blonde guy) but it is possible another is currently on the run, according to some witness reports. The caught guy was talking in a mic during the events.

By the way, Norway is a tiny country in terms of population. Most people here will know someone who is affected one way or another by this.

[Forward Union]

The attack on Social democracy in Scandinavia has taken on a different face in Norway it seems.

A right wing terrorist attacking a social democracy is something we should be worried about, these things have systemic causes and cannot be dismissed as the act of a signle lone nutter. Whatever our criticisms of social democracy, Anders was, in all likelihood, not mentally ill and represents deeper problems.

[punisa]

I opened this topic yesterday... if only the title had stayed true :(

[Tim Cornelis]

Yeah, this was mentioned in Dutch media as well. In that light, it's fair to say that the "Nazi" angle is wrong too. It seems pretty clear that the perpetrator is a Christian conservative, inspired by Euro populist national conservatism, with a very specific preoccupation with Islamic immigration. His heroes include Geert Wilders, Winston Churchill and a Norwegian anti-nazi resistance fighter. He is also apparently a Freemason. The party that he used to support is also more of a libertarian-style anti-immigration type. The only commonality that any of these have with Nazis is that they both oppose immigration.

I don't know if they will ever find any statements on Israel or the Jews by the perpetrator, but in the light of the above, it seems much more likely that they would be pro-Israeli viewpoints and not anti-semitic ones. Apparently, on some Israeli media comment panels (see, for instance, here (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynet.co.il%2FExt%2FAp p%2FTalkBack%2FCdaViewOpenTalkBack%2F0%2C11382%2CL-4098815%2C00.html&sl=iw&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)), there was a lot of joy about these attacks because Norway's government is pro-Palestine. Of course, we all know that that can't possibly be true (for sure, I haven't seen any media mentioning it), because only teh evil Arabs celebrate terrorist attacks.

The "Jihadi" claim was put forward by Will McCants, some guy who runs a blog that supposedly documents the Jihadi danger around the world. He claims to have access to pro-terrorist Arabic forums from which he translates, but of course we can't see the evidence. Nevertheless, among others, the New York Times immediately copied his claims. More on so-called "terror experts" here: http://electronicintifada.net/blog/benjamin-doherty/how-clueless-terrorism-expert-set-media-suspicion-muslims-after-oslo-horror

What none of the experts have foreseen (or dared to say) is the harsh reality: that this is (to my knowledge) the first open terrorist attack perpetrated by European national conservatism/populism. The American variety already had its first blood in Tucson, Arizona, and now their friends across the pond have also produced a "lone wolf" gunman. In this case, the social-democratic politicians and their children were the first targets.

They did find it, he said he's pro-Israel.

Dutch source: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/07/23/schutter-schreef-kritisch-over-islam-multiculturalisme-en-media/

[Meridian]

In his writings on the net, he denounces both Nazism and Marxism, and seems to equate the two.

His main contention seems to be against internationalism and what he calls "cultural marxists", who are simply all those not principally against immigration, especially the immigration of Muslim people.

He also makes mentions of the Austrian school of economics, which he supports.

Speaking of anarchism, and a newspaper he calls "anarcho-marxist", he makes a big distinction between anarchism and anarcho-marxism.

I would say this guy comes off as a 'libertarian' nationalist, if such a concoction of words even makes sense.

It is weird, his comments on the net does not seem overly hostile. His ideas are of course horrible, but his manner of presentation does not seem particularly aggressive.

[Welshy]

In his writings on the net, he denounces both Nazism and Marxism, and seems to equate the two.

His main contention seems to be against internationalism and what he calls "cultural marxists", who are simply all those not principally against immigration, especially the immigration of Muslim people.

He also makes mentions of the Austrian school of economics, which he supports.

Speaking of anarchism, and a newspaper he calls "anarcho-marxist", he makes a big distinction between anarchism and anarcho-marxism.

I would say this guy comes off as a 'libertarian' nationalist, if such a concoction of words even makes sense.

It is weird, his comments on the net does not seem overly hostile. His ideas are of course horrible, but his manner of presentation does not seem particularly aggressive.

It's stuff like this that makes me doubt whether we will ever see fascism like it existed in the 20's-40's again. Instead I think we will see a more militant culturally conservative neo-liberal movement that has politics very much like the US Tea Party. And from you are describing his politics sound exactly like the Tea Party (though the bit about anarchism is weird).

[Meridian]

It's stuff like this that makes me doubt whether we will ever see fascism like it existed in the 20's-40's again. Instead I think we will see a more militant culturally conservative neo-liberal movement that has politics very much like the US Tea Party. And from you are describing his politics sound exactly like the Tea Party (though the bit about anarchism is weird).
I don't think the guy is an anarchist at all. Only that he seemed somewhat more sympathetic towards the completely unregulated form of capitalism, which he seems to call simply "anarchism" as opposed to "anarcho-marxism".

The guy seemed to use "marxism" as anything involving a state, while at the same time using it to describe less regulated immigration policies... :S

[rednordman]

As someone who is half Norwegian, words cannot really describe how shocked I am by all of this. Living in the UK and seeing this unwrap on the news has been incredibly sickening indeed.

It was awful hearing about it to begin with but it just seems to get worse by the hour. It was interesting hearing the story change from international Islamic terrorist attack at first, to Christian far-right extremist.
The more I think about what has happened the more angry I get tbh. To think that there are probably sick far-right sympathisers seeing this as some kind of triumph disturbs me to my very core.

Its one thing to do this to a government building, but to all those young people, that was horrendous no matter what political party they supported.

All my thoughts and sympathies go out to the families of the victims, but also to the nation at whole. Knowing the country so well, I know that this will hurt a lot for along time.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I seem to be seeing a lot of rightists, nationalists and christians saying that this guy is obviously insane and his politics and religious views should not factor into it, forget he attacked Government buildings and a Labour Party Youth Camp. Would be a different story had the guy been an Afghan immigrant, these people would be condemning Islam like a bunch of overzealous shit hawks.

About the reports of a second gunman on the island, I don't think there is one. Apparently just before the guy appeared in a Police Uniform, they had gathered everybody around a stage to tell them there had been a bomb attack in Oslo. He managed to get close with an automatic weapon then opened fire on the group. On such a small island there isn't a lot of options for escape other than jumping in the water and swimming for your life. I can't imagine how terrifying a situation like that must have been... my condolences go out to all those affected.

[RadioRaheem84]

The attack on Social democracy in Scandinavia has taken on a different face in Norway it seems.

A right wing terrorist attacking a social democracy is something we should be worried about, these things have systemic causes and cannot be dismissed as the act of a signle lone nutter. Whatever our criticisms of social democracy, Anders was, in all likelihood, not mentally ill and represents deeper problems.


This is something I am fearing in the States considering anything to the left of extreme right wing fundamentalism is considered "socialism", "communism", etc.

Social Democracy is the last vestige (besides the deformed ML States) of any semblance of leftism left in the world, and right wingers have set their sites on dismantling it, defaming it, or not allowing it to even flourish as a thought in the States.

[CHE with an AK]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/23/article-2017709-0D1F33FB00000578-704_306x512.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/22/article-2017851-0D1E8F5700000578-403_306x653.jpg

- Six foot tall

- Well educated 'Loner' who lived with his mother in a wealthy suburb of Oslo.

- A member of 'Nordisk' which has 22,000 members and focuses on political terrorism.

- Enjoyed hunting.

- Listed interests such as body-building and freemasonry.

- Atudied at the Oslo School of Management.

- Expressed extremist Islamophobic views on forums and criticised immigration policies.

- Argued that socialism was breaking down traditions, culture, national identity and other societal structures and that this in turn made society weak and confused.

- Listed his favourite books as The Trial by Franz Kafka and Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell.

- Lists his favourite TV show as Dexter - a series about a Miami police forensics expert who moonlights as a serial killer of criminals whom he believes have escaped justice.

- Posted on websites with Christian fundamentalist tendencies

- A friend claims he became a rightwing extremist in his late 20s.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017851/Norway-attacks-gunman-Anders-Behring-Breivik-right-wing-extremist-hated-Muslims.html#ixzz1SwTTTHK2

[Welshy]

Can you put that picture in spoilers as this is a tragic event and that image may upset people.

[CHE with an AK]

Listed his favourite books as The Trial by Franz Kafka and Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell.
Apparently he doesn't realize Orwell was a socialist.

Plus as a huge Kafka fan, that is dissapointing, although I can see how the alienation Kafka describes could have appeal to a disenchanted loner. The key is to realize that Marx's theory of alienation is the key to understanding the true cause.

[CHE with an AK]

Can you put that picture in spoilers as this is a tragic event and that image may upset people.
Done.

[RadioRaheem84]

His resume reads like a lot of people in the State that I know of. The only difference is that they have not gone off the deep end and still think their right wing wishes can be accomplished through the electoral process.

[heyjoe]

this is the danger of allowing or encouraging us on the left to be disarmed. we are vulnerable to a mass attack like the camp shooting by the radical right.

[RadioRaheem84]

Apparently he doesn't realize Orwell was a socialist.




Libertarians are very, very delusional when it comes to art. They think that everything that is against the state is supportive of libertarianism.

They think Orwell was a libertarian, when he was just denouncing the USSR for corrupting socialism.

One libertarian was trying to convince me that the movie Moon with Sam Rockwell, was about the government crushing the individual man. When I told him it was a corporation using the life of the man as an expendable piece, hence showcasing how heartless corporations can be when maximizing profits, he scolded me and said that the corporation represents the State in real life. :confused:

Don't ever trust them to interpret anything remotely subversive. They're desperate to attach themselves to anything deemed subversive because they believe their ideas are just that.

[RadioRaheem84]

this is the danger of allowing or encouraging us on the left to be disarmed. we are vulnerable to a mass attack like the camp shooting by the radical right.

This is the danger of allowing the left to be effectively marginilized in national political discourse. We aren't even allowed to defend ourselves and our views, and thus have the right wing propogate our views for us, turning every one of our beliefs into a vulgar butchered desire to take over their lives.

Innocent people are getting killed because of the misconceptions about leftism being propogated by the right wing.

[Meridian]

An article I thought was quite interesting:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html

"Terrorism means nothing more than violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes", as certain news sources changed the title from "terrorist" to "extremist".

Had it not been for the actions he committed, this man would hardly be called an extremist in the political climate of the US, I think.

[Crux]

Aaaand the first article in swedish right-wing media equating "leftwing extremism" with "rightwing extremism" is in. Let's hope people have the guts to speak up against that bullshit.

[Wanted Man]

this is the danger of allowing or encouraging us on the left to be disarmed. we are vulnerable to a mass attack like the camp shooting by the radical right.

What are you talking about?


An article I thought was quite interesting:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html

"Terrorism means nothing more than violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes", as certain news sources changed the title from "terrorist" to "extremist".

Had it not been for the actions he committed, this man would hardly be called an extremist in the political climate of the US, I think.

Greenwald is right on the money once again.

[Bronco]

Here's a collection of his political comments http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/

This would essentially contradict the view that he is a neo-Nazi (which a number of sources are now calling him):

"For me it is very hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differ. They are all supporters of hate-ideologies. Not all Muslims, Nazis and Marxists are conservative, most are moderate. But does it matter? A moderate Nazi might, after having experienced fraud, choose to be conservative. A moderate Muslim can, after being refused to enter a club, be conservative, etc.

It is obvious that the moderate supporters of hate-ideologies, at a later date may choose conservatism.

Islam (ism) has historically led to 300 million deaths
Communism has historically led to 100 million deaths
Nazism has historically led to 6-20 million deaths

ALL hate ideologies should be treated equally"

[Tommy4ever]

Yes, it seems he is a neo-liberal, Christian, with socially conservative, militant anti-left and anti-immigrant views. Actually strikingly close to the American Tea Party, which is very disturbing. I wonder how people in movements like the Tea Party will address this, I'd assume they'd do everything to try to label him as a lone madman and to ignore his views. But it is pretty clear this act of terrorism was entirely political.

I'm still struggling to believe just how many kids he murdered on that island. To put the death toll into context, the bbc published this table next to an article:



July 2011: At least 84 killed at a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoeya, hours after bomb blast in capital Oslo
April 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people and himself on Virginia Tech campus in the US
April 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, kills 16 people before killing himself in Erfurt, Germany
April 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, open fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado killing 13 people before taking their own lives
April 1996: Martin Bryant, 29, kills 35 people in the seaside resort of Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia
March 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, kills 16 children and their teacher in a school in Dunblane, Scotland - before killing himself

More than two and a half times as many deaths as the Virginia Tech massacre.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Yes, it seems he is a neo-liberal, Christian, with socially conservative, militant anti-left and anti-immigrant views. Actually strikingly close to the American Tea Party, which is very disturbing. I wonder how people in movements like the Tea Party will address this, I'd assume they'd do everything to try to label him as a lone madman and to ignore his views. But it is pretty clear this act of terrorism was entirely political.

I'm still struggling to believe just how many kids he murdered on that island. To put the death toll into context, the bbc published this table next to an article:



July 2011: At least 84 killed at a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoeya, hours after bomb blast in capital Oslo
April 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people and himself on Virginia Tech campus in the US
April 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, kills 16 people before killing himself in Erfurt, Germany
April 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, open fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado killing 13 people before taking their own lives
April 1996: Martin Bryant, 29, kills 35 people in the seaside resort of Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia
March 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, kills 16 children and their teacher in a school in Dunblane, Scotland - before killing himself

More than two and a half times as many deaths as the Virginia Tech massacre.

A South Korean police officer went on a rampage in 1982 or something and massacred 57 people in several villages, which is the most deadly such spree killing after this one. The list seems primarily concerned with recent attacks, I think this is troubling because it will fuel some other kinds of nutters ideas that this is a recent phenomena.

[Red Commissar]

I have been analyzing some of his internet postings that have been revealed, and I think his mindset is very clear when you look at it. Its very representative of right-wing nutjobs currently.

What is interesting with this fellow is that the media is now avoiding calling this a "terrorist" attack and rather just leave it as "extremist". Why not call it a terrorist attack? He clearly had an intention to frighten and shock people, and chose targets with political significance. His postings on "document.no", if it is the same person, seem to indicate man with not only a lot of hatred against Muslims, but he also seems to rant on a lot about groups responsible for advancing "multiculturalism".

As I thought earlier though, he doesn't seem to be a Neo-Nazi. He seems to lump in Nazis, Communists, and Muslims into one group and says they should not tolerate any of them. Considering his declared political beliefs, this makes sense. Which is text-book thinking for Nationalists like himself.

A lot of his posts seem to go quite obsessively into the "Marxists" encouraging multicultural standpoints. At many points he actually ends up using the term "Cultural Marxists", which is a common term among the right to refer to the use of education and media to brainwash youth. Never mind this isn't what "Cultural Marxism" is- that actually refers to a process for some Marxists to critique and analyze society based on its social fabric. In short, it is a system of critique- not one meaning this insidious "infiltration" that many people invoke... he even thinks that Europe "lost" the Cold War because they let "Marxists/anti-Nationalists" (he lumps them in together) to have jobs, particularly in the teaching field... yeah, like I thought.

This use of "Cultural Marxism" is used here a lot too by the types who might end up on the extreme end of a Tea Party. He brings up the term a lot when he moans and complains about "multiculturalism", and he continues ranting about the "socialists", who I presume with these attacks he means the Labor Party. The "cultural marxists" control the media and education- again pretty much standard fare for these people when they invoke the term- and are able to control the population and force down "multiculturalism".

At one point, he lauds the success of South Korea and Japan for being culturally homogeneous and not encouraging multiculturalism, then goes into persecution complex mode and complains why aren't they (SK, Jap) called "fascists", but they (Europe) are.

He seemed to be interested in the "Progressive Party" and many of these posts saw it as a bastion to encourage "free market" and fight back against "multiculturalism". When they do not achieve victory at the polls, he blames the media for siding with the "Cultural Marxists" (remember, they control everything!), and brings up a "Tea-Party" style phenomenon in Europe in one post.

And it goes on like that. "Multiculturalism", "Cultural Marxism", etc., hatred building up against a government and the political philosophy he attaches to it (socialism) and at some point he built up enough hatred to go off that and attack the symbols of the political establishment.

I think his rantings about "Cultural Marxism" probably led him to targeting the youth camp. Besides the fact that as a terrorist attack such an action would get so much attention and shock, judging on what he thought "Cultural Marxism" was, the youth group attached to a political group he hated so much would be to him, the biggest example of "indoctrination" of the youth.

I think the media and certain groups once again has a part in this, as they do with any act of right nationalist attacks. They often interject idiotic commentary into the mix that takes a poisonous strangle on some people, and builds up hatred. This guys rantings about "multi-culturalism", the socialists, and "Cultural Marxists" is probably in great part due to the atmosphere he was in.

...and of course the media will do little to change this toxic dialogue.



Yes, it seems he is a neo-liberal, Christian, with socially conservative, militant anti-left and anti-immigrant views. Actually strikingly close to the American Tea Party, which is very disturbing. I wonder how people in movements like the Tea Party will address this, I'd assume they'd do everything to try to label him as a lone madman and to ignore his views. But it is pretty clear this act of terrorism was entirely political.

Interestingly enough, he actually does bring up the Tea Party on one post, saying that such a group should be emulated in Europe.

[The Vegan Marxist]

In Anders Behring Breivik's own words, the Oslo bomber and summer camp shooter in Norway, he's declared himself VERY anti-Muslim and VERY anti-Marxist. He stated that "98 percent of all Norwegian journalists are cultural Marxists," and get this, he's also apparently pro-Israel. He says he's a baptized Protestant, but that the Protestant Church "is a joke. Priests in jeans who demonstrate for Palestine."

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/07/23/schutter-schreef-kritisch-over-islam-multiculturalisme-en-media/

[Forward Union]

In order to kill 84 unarmed teenagers you have to have a belief system which justifies such an action. Given the fact that they were not responsible for the policies which Anders opposed, nor would killing them have changed those policies, the actions must have had some sort of a superstitious or non rational basis for justification.

He was a Christian. I wouldn't say all Christians are terrorists, in the same way it would be deeply offensive and ignorant to say all Muslims are terrorists. But superstitious rationalisation is the prerequisite for justifying any murder spree of this kind. His Christianity cannot be ignored from the factor. It is simply not possible for a rational, clear minded person, even one of an extreme right wing persuasion - to conclude that killing 84 kids would be beneficial, for ones self or for any kind of higher cause.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Here's the killer's own written down thoughts on, well, pretty much everything. Overall, this was an anti-Marxist attack, even when the social-democrats weren't Marxists at all. He somehow tries to make Marxism behind everything he hates:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/&act=url

[Welshy]

In order to kill 84 unarmed teenagers you have to have a belief system which justifies such an action. Given the fact that they were not responsible for the policies which Anders opposed, nor would killing them have changed those policies, the actions must have had some sort of a superstitious or non rational basis for justification.



I disagree. Given his very anti-marxist stance, his belief that nazism=marxism=islam, and that his politics a very similar to Tea Party politics, I would have to say that this was motivated by politics rather than superstition. His attacks were obviously focused at the ruling Labor Party (blowing up buildings they work in and attacking their youth group). He was also interested in the Progress Party, which according to an earlier believes that Norway is the last Soviet state and that social democracy = communism. So that ties the Labor Party into the ideologies he hates.

[heyjoe]

what i am saying is that people or groups who are looking to kill many people at one time pick their targets not just based on ideology but on wether or not the target is armed and able to defend itself. Its foolish in these times of violent rhetoric and actions on the far right for the left to remain totally disarmed in gatherings and meetings and not have at least some armed security.

[Bronco]

what i am saying is that people or groups who are looking to kill many people at one time pick their targets not just based on ideology but on wether or not the target is armed and able to defend itself. Its foolish in these times of violent rhetoric and actions on the far right for the left to remain totally disarmed in gatherings and meetings and not have at least some armed security.

Yeah, why didn't they hand out guns to the teenagers at a Labour Youth summer camp :rolleyes:

[Welshy]

Yeah, why didn't they hand out guns to the teenagers at a Labour Youth summer camp :rolleyes:

I think that is an unfair misrepresentation of what (s)he is saying. Is it really unreasonable for leftist groups to have security forces at large meetings and camps just in case you have an attack like this one? Sure some children may have still died, but if there was organized security there then they probably would have been able to limit the number of deaths.

Also I'm not talking about some Orwellian police state kind of security, but in the case of communist/socialist organizations I'm talking about a security force made up of workers/party members in order to assure the safety of the comrades/children.

[rednordman]

Here's a collection of his political comments http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/

This would essentially contradict the view that he is a neo-Nazi (which a number of sources are now calling him):

"For me it is very hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differ. They are all supporters of hate-ideologies. Not all Muslims, Nazis and Marxists are conservative, most are moderate. But does it matter? A moderate Nazi might, after having experienced fraud, choose to be conservative. A moderate Muslim can, after being refused to enter a club, be conservative, etc.

It is obvious that the moderate supporters of hate-ideologies, at a later date may choose conservatism.

Islam (ism) has historically led to 300 million deaths
Communism has historically led to 100 million deaths
Nazism has historically led to 6-20 million deaths

ALL hate ideologies should be treated equally"This is all to practical imo. He probably said something like this to stop people getting suspicious of his motives. After all even if he isn't a Nazi, he blatantly advocates 'hate ideology'.

[tachosomoza]

Sorta OT, but who knows of the strength and influence of Norwegian antifa/other Leftists? Are they as small as they are in the US?

[Bronco]

I think that is an unfair misrepresentation of what (s)he is saying. Is it really unreasonable for leftist groups to have security forces at large meetings and camps just in case you have an attack like this one? Sure some children may have still died, but if there was organized security there then they probably would have been able to limit the number of deaths.

Also I'm not talking about some Orwellian police state kind of security, but in the case of communist/socialist organizations I'm talking about a security force made up of workers/party members in order to assure the safety of the comrades/children.

It was a summer camp for the youth wing of the ruling Labour party, I seriously doubt anyone would have thought of them as a potential target for terrorism and in the need of armed security.

[Wanted Man]

what i am saying is that people or groups who are looking to kill many people at one time pick their targets not just based on ideology but on wether or not the target is armed and able to defend itself. Its foolish in these times of violent rhetoric and actions on the far right for the left to remain totally disarmed in gatherings and meetings and not have at least some armed security.

Yeah, there is the tiny little problem with that, namely that it's illegal.


I think that is an unfair misrepresentation of what (s)he is saying. Is it really unreasonable for leftist groups to have security forces at large meetings and camps just in case you have an attack like this one? Sure some children may have still died, but if there was organized security there then they probably would have been able to limit the number of deaths.

Also I'm not talking about some Orwellian police state kind of security, but in the case of communist/socialist organizations I'm talking about a security force made up of workers/party members in order to assure the safety of the comrades/children.

In Norway, it was absolutely inconceivable that a camp like this (for the Labour youth, i.e. not for "radicals" or anything like that) would ever be targeted in this fashion. Before yesterday, anyone predicting that someone would go there and kill 85 children would be declared insane. In every camp like that, "security" tends to consist of a few participants with flashlights at night.

[tachosomoza]

It's not illegal to have armed security at private meetings, as far as I know. The right wingers and fascists do.

[Raightning]

Apparently the guy (under an Anglicised name) wrote a manifesto. (http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html) I've only skimmed the contents but its political interpretation seems to fit with his public postings (the silver bullet for me is the prominence of "cultural Marxism" and also the talk of the Vienna School) and it spends about 300 pages just going on about organising paramilitaries and creating attacks of terror etc. in the name of 'the conservative revolution'. This could be quite big I think.

[Raightning]

Alright so it's not really a manifesto so much as a manual for terrorism. There are entire sections dedicated to explaining, at length, how to manufacture explosives, biological and chemical weaponry, etc, and a 95-page section on planning a terrorist attack. Holy shit.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Nice find.

Yeah, this Video for that 'Manifesto' seems to be his... you see his picture at the end.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

[Wanted Man]

It's not illegal to have armed security at private meetings, as far as I know. The right wingers and fascists do.

In America maybe, but there are other countries in the world. For instance, the one that we're talking about in this thread right now that's called Norway. Now, apparently, Norway actually has pretty high gun ownership because they like to hunt there, but even there, I'm pretty sure that you won't see a lot of gun-toting henchmen at events of any kind...

Now, I'm not a big fan of government having a hold on all the guns and almost nobody else, but it's certainly a nice feeling to not have to live somewhere where everybody has gotten it into their heads that they need lethal force at their disposal at all times. The fact that it's still possible for known psychos to get a gun and shoot up a mall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphen_aan_den_Rijn_shopping_mall_shooting) is problematic, but they win as soon as we all start getting paranoid and we can no longer go outside without everyone around us being armed and dangerous because everyone is security-obsessed.

[Decolonize The Left]

God damn. I meet up with revlefters last night and my gf texts me this morning "holy shit norway." So now I gotta read about this motherfucker who goes apeshit on a kids camp. Fucking reactionaries.
This is terrible. I hope friends and family of folks here are safe and well.

As for the incident itself, 83 kids with a pistol and a shotgun? I'm having a hard time believing that. Assuming that the kids are running every which way and hiding and swimming and whatnot, that's 10+ reloads on a shotgun or maybe 10 clips on a pistol. And that's assuming he hits with every shot. How much fucking time did he have? I'd be very interested in hearing what kinds of shell casings they find on the island and if there's more weapons involved.

Again my sympathies to our friends and family in Norway.

- August

[Tommy4ever]

OK, I watched that bullshit video that was linked from his manifesto thing.

Basically here was the jist:

The Cultural Marxists are trying to subvert Europe in order to allow for the creation of a united and Marxist European state. Through political correctness they are disarming Europeans to the Islmaic 'demographic invasion'. Apparently the two are working together.

The wierd thing is that, after describing this the video entered a section called ''hope'' in which a series of europeans connected with fighting Muslims from Charles Martel (who defeated the initial Moorish invasion of Western Europe in the Dark Ages), through Richard Lionheart and Vlad the Impaler (as in the inspiration for Dracula, a man made famous for his love of impaling Turks, and Wallachians ....). The Crusader imagery was heavy.

But at the end the video said ''to defeat the Islamic invasion we must disarm cultural Marxism''. Now this I assume is his justification for the mass murders. He seems to think that through this violent strike (likely hoping it will be followed by others) he will convince a sort of mass slaughter of the accused cultural Marxists across Europe.

How can people be this fucked up?

[Meridian]

God damn. I meet up with revlefters last night and my gf texts me this morning "holy shit norway." So now I gotta read about this motherfucker who goes apeshit on a kids camp. Fucking reactionaries.
This is terrible. I hope friends and family of folks here are safe and well.

As for the incident itself, 83 kids with a pistol and a shotgun? I'm having a hard time believing that. Assuming that the kids are running every which way and hiding and swimming and whatnot, that's 10+ reloads on a shotgun or maybe 10 clips on a pistol. And that's assuming he hits with every shot. How much fucking time did he have? I'd be very interested in hearing what kinds of shell casings they find on the island and if there's more weapons involved.

Again my sympathies to our friends and family in Norway.

- August
What I have heard is that he had license for 3 weapons. Witnesses describe him having a Glock (which I assume is a pistol type), an automatic weapon, and a rifle which he reportedly used to shoot at the people attempting to flee the island by swimming.

By the way, even the suggestion to have armed personnel on a youth camp would be considered out of proportion and even directly harmful here in Norway before this incident. If there's anything Norwegians value it is their own peace and social openness, no matter how cliche that sounds.

When the perpetrator came to the island, it was not long after the explosions in central Oslo. Dressed as a police officer, he told everybody he had information regarding it. As he started shooting people, he lured people towards him telling them he had important information.

I can only imagine the fear the people on the island felt when the real police arrived afterwards.

[Ermo Kruus]

This is a very sad day for me. I've been to Utøya on summer camp with Red Youth, which is the largest far-left youth organisation in Norway (the island has been used by different left-wing organisations for years). I have lots of memories from the place, and I was thinking about going there later this summer, which there obviously won't happen now.

I don't want to make a political issue out of this now, I'm just way too shocked. This is an attack on the society as a whole, and I certainly hope no sides of the political spectrum will use this incident to score cheap political points.

[Tim Cornelis]

This cynical remark I read -- "at least now those social democrats are aware of how dangerous Islam is" -- really expresses how irrational his political motivations were, as Tommy4ever pointed out.

[RadioRaheem84]

All the right wingers I talk to are still in heavy denial that this man was politically motivated to kill. Instead they are just chalking it to loner lunacy. It's really a huge double standard because when an Islamist committs an act of terror, they blame Islam, but as soon as someone says they're out to kill for politics, they tell me to stop labeling and see the man just for what he was; a lone nut.

[tachosomoza]

Lol, why do you talk to right wingers, Raheem?

[Decolonize The Left]

All the right wingers I talk to are still in heavy denial that this man was politically motivated to kill. Instead they are just chalking it to loner lunacy. It's really a huge double standard because when an Islamist committs an act of terror, they blame Islam, but as soon as someone says they're out to kill for politics, they tell me to stop labeling and see the man just for what he was; a lone nut.

Yes. A lot of the time it's institutionalized prejudice. White people can go crazy and kill a bunch of people on their own. Muslims have bad intentions and terrorize as a result.

The underlying assumption here is that white people have good intentions which sometimes go awry while brown people are always intent on terror/evil when bad things happen.

- August

[Tim Cornelis]

ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING.

On a Dutch forum some adherents of the Geert Wilder's Party for Freedom say "homage to the perpetrator" another person says "I don't care about the bombing, but it shouldn't have been children".

Dutch report on it: http://www.powned.tv/nieuws/binnenland/2011/07/hulde_aan_de_aanslagpleger.html

Google translation: Supporters of the PVV heap praise on the man in cold blood at least 85 people shot dead at a youth camp of the Norwegian Social Democratic Party.

"In that case, the attack the only correct answer to a leftist totalitarian state where right-wing people silenced." so there can be read on a forum for supporters of the party. "If you can not perform more debate than with words but with bombs. Tribute to the bomber. "

Many other members on the forum show understanding for the action of the extreme right-wing Norwegian.

Twitter users react to the shock of support for terrorist action. The Freedom Forum said in a statement to condemn the statements.

Earlier today revealed that offenders Anders Breivik Behring supporter of the Freedom Party of Geert Wilders. The PVV leader has condemned the act. .

[RadioRaheem84]

Lol, why do you talk to right wingers, Raheem?

They mostly end up talking to me. I am from Texas and it's not hard to run into one, especially neighbor and friends.

One even said, "one of your left wing nutjob friends took out some kids in Norway". I was furious.

[Thirsty Crow]

This is an attack on the society as a whole, and I certainly hope no sides of the political spectrum will use this incident to score cheap political points.
Girst of all, it's really horrible to hear such a dreadful thing has happened. And I hope I won't come off as rude or insensitive, but how is this an attach on society as a whole when specific targets have been chosen (those representing the "evils of multiculturalism" or whatnot, as the attack was most probably politically motivated)?

And another thing, I really hope that this kind of "conservative" scum will be flushed out by their reactions to this event as has already happened with Dutch right-wing scum, and I would very much like to see a proper acton undertaken against these little shits.

[Triple A]

All the right wingers I talk to are still in heavy denial that this man was politically motivated to kill. Instead they are just chalking it to loner lunacy. It's really a huge double standard because when an Islamist committs an act of terror, they blame Islam, but as soon as someone says they're out to kill for politics, they tell me to stop labeling and see the man just for what he was; a lone nut.

I was in another forum and there were like 6 thread on this bombings and as soon as the guy identity came out the forum went silent as the republicans got back to their caves.

[Rss]

Eh... Still kind of shocked by this. My deepest condolences to norwegian comrades here and families of murdered children.

I hope that people recognize need for security culture. Social democrats are not even revolutionary movement and they are still targeted.

Interesting that most active anti-immigration forum here has locked all discussion about this incident...

[CommunityBeliever]

How is this guy not a Nazi?

[Tim Cornelis]

How is this guy not a Nazi?

He's pro-Israel.

[Welshy]

How is this guy not a Nazi?

Nazism is a very specific thing and not just some title we use as an insult. This guy, while a horrible reactionary, is just a social conservative who supports neo-liberal policies, something that Nazis, being third positionists, wouldn't advocate. He also isn't anti-jewish from what I have read.

[CommunityBeliever]

He also isn't anti-jewish from what I have read.

From what I read it seems like he is all the qualities of a Nazi (anti-communism, European nationalism, masculism, etc) except that he blames the muslims rather then the jews.

[Sensible Socialist]

From what I read it seems like he is all the qualities of a Nazi (anti-communism, European nationalism, masculism, etc) except that he blames the muslims rather then the jews.
The Nazi Party was based on a specific set of policies and beliefs. You can't just use the term to describe any radical conservative.

[Welshy]

From what I read it seems like he is all the qualities of a Nazi (anti-communism, European nationalism, masculism, etc) except that he blames the muslims rather then the jews.

But Nazism is more than racism and anti-communism. It is also anti-"free market" capitalism.
The Nazis argued that capitalism damages nations due to international finance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_finance), the economic dominance of big business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_business), and Jewish influences within it.[90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-autogenerated20-89) Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, held strong disdain for capitalism; he accused modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolitanism) rentier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier) class.[92] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-91) He opposed free-market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy where community interests would be upheld.[93] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-R.J._Overy_2004._p._403-92) He distrusted capitalism for being unreliable, due to it having an egotistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egotism) nature, and he preferred a state-directed economy.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-J._Overy_2004._p._399-93) On the issue of capitalist materialism, Hitler said "It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will bow down before a higher god. Many things owe their existence solely to the longing for money and wealth, but there is very little among them whose non-existence would leave humanity any the poorer."[95] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-94) Hitler told one party leader in 1934, "The economic system of our day," referring to capitalism, "is the creation of the Jews."[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-J._Overy_2004._p._399-93) In a discussion with Italian Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini, Hitler said that "Capitalism had run its course".[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-J._Overy_2004._p._399-93) Hitler was disgusted by the bourgeoisie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois) and in one conversation stated that business bourgeoisie "know nothing except their profit. 'Fatherland' is only a word for them."[96] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-95) Hitler admired Napoleon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon) as a rolemodel for his anti-conservative, anti-capitalist, and anti-bourgeois attitudes.[97] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-96)
To Hitler, the economy must be subordinated to the interests of the Volk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volk) and its state.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-J._Overy_2004._p._399-93) In Mein Kampf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf), Hitler effectively supported mercantilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism), in the belief that economic resources from their respective territories should be seized by force; he believed that the policy of lebensraum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) would provide Germany with such economically valuable territories.[98] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-R.J._Overy_2004._p._402-97) He believed that the only means to maintain economic security was to have direct control over resources rather than being forced to rely on world trade.[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-98) He claimed that war to gain such resources was the only means to surpass the failing capitalist economic system.[98] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-R.J._Overy_2004._p._402-97) He believed that private ownership was useful in that it encouraged creative competition and technical innovation, but insisted that it had to conform to national interests and be "productive" rather than "parasitical".[93] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-R.J._Overy_2004._p._403-92)


The shooter was a supporter of free market capitalism and had politics just like the tea party. He is definitely a disgusting reactionary, but not a Nazi.

[Ermo Kruus]

Girst of all, it's really horrible to hear such a dreadful thing has happened. And I hope I won't come off as rude or insensitive, but how is this an attach on society as a whole when specific targets have been chosen (those representing the "evils of multiculturalism" or whatnot, as the attack was most probably politically motivated)?

And another thing, I really hope that this kind of "conservative" scum will be flushed out by their reactions to this event as has already happened with Dutch right-wing scum, and I would very much like to see a proper acton undertaken against these little shits.What I mean is that this guy isn't representative of the Norwegian society as a whole. That being said, we shouldn't remain passive over this kind of racist attitudes spreading.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

One even said, "one of your left wing nutjob friends took out some kids in Norway". I was furious.

What the fuck?! Seriously?

[JimFar]

With so many of the earlier news reports attributed the murderous attacks in Norway to "Islamist extremists", we then found out that in reality the perpetrator is a blond, blue-eyed Norwegian who is a professing fundamentalist Christian far rightist, who is apparently violently anti-Muslim. Even so, that still didn't shut up many of the talking heads who kept running at the mouth about "Islamic terrorism".

All this talk of so-called "terrorism experts" and such reminds me of one of Christopher Hitchens's finest pieces that he ever wrote: "Wanton Acts of Usage: Terrorism, A Cliche in Search of a Meaning", Harper's Magazine (September 1986). There in discussing the word "terrorism", the Hitch wrote:

"Propaganda terms, whether vulgar or ingenious, have always aimed at making political problems seem one-sided. Why should they not? That is the propagandist's job. What is frightening and depressing is that a pseudoscientific propaganda word like 'terrorism' has come to have such a hypnotic effect on public debate in the United States. A word which originated with the most benighted opponents of the French Revolution; a word featured constantly in the antipartisan communiques of the Third Reich; a word which is a commonplace in the handouts of the Red Army in Afghanistan and the South African army in Namibia; a word which was in everyday usage during the decline of the British, French, Portuguese and Belgian empires. Should we not be wary of a term with which rulers fool themselves and by which history is abolished and language debased? Don't we fool and debase ourselves enough as it is?"

[Salyut]

Sincere and patriotic regards,Andrew Berwick, London, England - 2011Justiciar Knight Commander for Knights Templar Europe and one of several leaders of theNational and pan-European Patriotic Resistance MovementWith the assistance from brothers and sisters in England, France, Germany, Sweden,Austria, Italy, Spain, Finland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, the US etc.

Seems he has/had help. This stuff reads very Yockeyish. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Parker_Yockey)

[freya4]

Wow. The fact that this guy would target a youth camp where he knows his victims won't be able to defend themselves exposes himself for the coward he is. When I listen to his rhetoric (ie blaming Islam, Marxists, immigrants), I can't help but notice the same type of talk among the Tea Party and the right in this country, but I was not expecting this kind of news to come out of Norway. It always seemed like such a peaceful and quiet country.
My thoughts are with the people of Norway and victims of the attack and their families.

[tachosomoza]

Same here. I was under the assumption that Norway, Sweden, Denmark and other Scandinavian countries were some of the most tolerant and prosperous on Earth. From my personal experiences from expats of those countries, they are shocked at the reactionary nature of American society, namely, how we treat our immigrants and minorities and poor.

[RadioRaheem84]

What the fuck?! Seriously?

Yes, they even said Loughner, the nut from the Arizona shooting was left wing. Apparently, so was McVeigh.

Their reasoning is that anyone anti-government = left wing.

They're traditionalist, kool-aid drinking Republicans that believe that.

[Ravachol]

Yes, they even said Loughner, the nut from the Arizona shooting was left wing. Apparently, so was McVeigh.

Their reasoning is that anyone anti-government = left wing.

They're traditionalist, kool-aid drinking Republicans that believe that.

So according to these jokers the Tea Party is a left-wing movement... within the GOP? :confused:

[RadioRaheem84]

So according to these jokers the Tea Party is a left-wing movement... within the GOP? :confused:

I really don't have time to decipher inane logic, ya know.

It seems like they're desperate to not let any blemish befall their great tea party movement.

If the killer were American, he would be a Glen Beck loving, Tea Bagger, that is for sure.

[Crux]

I have the dubious pleasure of debating a conspiracy loon who immediatly claimed he had made "research" and knew it was a conspiracy and Breivik didn't do it (the government was just after him because he was far right) and I supposedly "got all my news form Fox News and CNN". And he "didn't believe in left and right". Guys like that can just fuck straight off. Of course as soon as I challenged his "research" he started talking about secret NATO opretaions and operation Gladio. :rolleyes:

[Sensible Socialist]

I have the dubious pleasure of debating a conspiracy loon who immediatly claimed he had made "research" and knew it was a conspiracy and Breivik didn't do it (the government was just after him because he was far right) and I supposedly "got all my news form Fox News and CNN". And he "didn't believe in left and right". Guys like that can just fuck straight off. Of course as soon as I challenged his "research" he started talking about secret NATO opretaions and operation Gladio. :rolleyes:
Alex Jones is already off and running with the idea that it was a false-flag operation. The goal of which I don't have the slightest clue. I can't imagine what anyone, be it to New World Order, the Bankers, the Zionists, or the Lizard Men, would have to gain from killing children and pinning it on a right-wing loon.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Same here. I was under the assumption that Norway, Sweden, Denmark and other Scandinavian countries were some of the most tolerant and prosperous on Earth. From my personal experiences from expats of those countries, they are shocked at the reactionary nature of American society, namely, how we treat our immigrants and minorities and poor.

The thing is, this revulsion is not because there is no racism here in Scandinavia, but that it has been very rare for political figures to ever espouse such language publicly, and thus when confronted with the bile spewed forth by U.S. politicians - language that gradually has become more common here as well - people react, because here, it is not considered appropriate for politicians to make the sort of obvious racist and reactionary comments outright, even the liberals tend to avoid being too flagrant.

(However, the reactionary nature of the established right forces are sometimes quite flagrant: the 2002 party platform programme of the Moderate party, formerly the Right party and the Swedish equivalent of Höyre in Norway, had in their introduction the lines "Sweden is an Authoritarian Socialist state", and allude to the same kind of "Sweden is the last socialist bastion" and "last soviet outpost" talk that is common in both Swedish and Norwegian far-right nationalist economically liberal circles.

[Queercommie Girl]

Alex Jones is already off and running with the idea that it was a false-flag operation. The goal of which I don't have the slightest clue. I can't imagine what anyone, be it to New World Order, the Bankers, the Zionists, or the Lizard Men, would have to gain from killing children and pinning it on a right-wing loon.

Technically it cannot even be "false-flag" because the killer already is a pro-Zionist and a supporter of neoliberal big capitalism. You would have thought the New World Order would at least be smart enough to pin it on someone who is more different from them...

[Sensible Socialist]

Technically it cannot even be "false-flag" because the killer already is a pro-Zionist and a supporter of neoliberal big capitalism. You would have thought the New World Order would at least be smart enough to pin it on someone who is more different from them...
He's saying the man who did it was a "populist" opposed to the worldwide scheme of bankers. The article on Infowars is hillarious, although scary that people actually believe it.

[MattShizzle]

How the right sees it:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9259/understandingterrorism.jpg

[tachosomoza]

White, Christian Male: You killed almost 100 people, you are branded as a simple loon. Everyone who looks like you goes about their business.

Gays, Blacks, Hispanics, Arabs, Jews, etc.: You killed almost 100 people, now everyone who looks like you or thinks like you has to hide in their houses for weeks for fear of retaliation. When they do come out, they have to bend over backwards trying to distance themselves from you, along with new police profiling.

[Queercommie Girl]

White, Christian Male: You killed almost 100 people, you are branded as a simple loon. Everyone who looks like you goes about their business.

Gays, Blacks, Hispanics, Arabs, Jews, etc.: You killed almost 100 people, now everyone who looks like you or thinks like you has to hide in their houses for weeks for fear of retaliation. When they do come out, they have to bend over backwards trying to distance themselves from you, along with new police profiling.

Don't forget it would apply to Asians and Chinese too.

[tachosomoza]

Don't forget it would apply to Asians and Chinese too.

Yes, that's why I put the "etc."

[fabiansocialist]

Yes, it seems he is a neo-liberal, Christian, with socially conservative, militant anti-left and anti-immigrant views. Actually strikingly close to the American Tea Party, which is very disturbing. I wonder how people in movements like the Tea Party will address this, I'd assume they'd do everything to try to label him as a lone madman and to ignore his views. But it is pretty clear this act of terrorism was entirely political.

In other words, a typical member of the Norwegian political party, the FrP (Progress Party).

[Boboulas]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60740932/2083-a-European-Declaration-of-Independence

This guys manifesto. Look on page 1386, he says that he aspires to be like winston churchil, im sure the BBC will cover this in detail ;P

[Chris]

They are apparently gonna release the names of the murdered sometime on sunday. I hope I don't recognise any names. :( Gotten word from some I knew at the camp (they are alive, but not well).


In other words, a typical member of the Norwegian political party, the FrP (Progress Party).
No, just... no. Scoring cheap political points off of this is just... low. I know plenty of good people in that party or who are supporters. Most of them are not militantly anti-left nor socially conservative.
(note, this is in no way an endorsement of the FRP. But the members and supporters are not fucking terrorists)

[Killermunch]

This bombing and mass murder is a direct and obviously blatant attack against our leftist Norwegian comrades. The fascist pigs are losing their control over the populace they have so tenderly groomed to be consumed with greed and hate. This is the beginning of an anti-left smear campaign, for now we're the victims but soon they will stage a larger left extremist attack as a retaliation and that will surely scar our good intentions and plunge the world into another political cold war. Capitalists verses Communists.

[Feodor Augustus]

How much fucking time did he have?

There seem to be some serious questions about the response time of the police in all this. However the bomb blast in central Oslo no doubt distracted attention, and I figure that was likely part of his whole rationale.


From what I read it seems like he is all the qualities of a Nazi (anti-communism, European nationalism, masculism, etc) except that he blames the muslims rather then the jews.

Nazism existed in a specific historical epoch. After 1945, we have neo-Nazis, not Nazis. However Breivik's politics do not appear to fit even that particular mould, and are much more representative of the new far right that has arisen over the last decade or so.

It may seem like an acute difference, but it is important to understand such differences in order to effectively organise against them.


Apparently the guy (under an Anglicised name) wrote a manifesto.

Talk about loquacious: 1,518 pages (over four megabytes).

This guy obviously had well laid plans to try and become something of an icon.

Leading EDL member Chris Howard has suggested that Breivik has shown the way to 'fight back' (http://twitpic.com/5ummdb). I suppose, however, we should be thankful that most members of the EDL struggle with 10 pages, never mind 1,500.