CrimethInc

[WyoLeftist]

I'm pretty sure this has probably been asked a time or two (probably closer to a thousand times) but I've gotta know, what does the majority of the left-wing think of the group CrimethInc? I've heard them called Lifestylist, Anarchy without adjectives, Post-leftism, and various other names and lables. What does everyone here think about them?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Aren't they also Primitivist?

[Aloysius]

They have some pretty interesting publications. Can't say much beyond that, though, despite the fact that CrimethInc was what really got me into leftist politics in the first place.

[o well this is ok I guess]

They're generally not the best place to go for post-leftism.
They're a great place to go for DIY sorts of things and have some great reads (Evasion was good, I don't care what anyone says), but they're somewhat limited in their aims.

[Agnapostate]

Subculturalism is a potentially productive means of engaging working-class people beyond what so-called "vulgar economism" can accomplish. If a specific and limited subculture completely dominates a socialist tendency, as is very often the case with anarchism (at least in the United States), it isolates the large majority of working-class people, however.

[Revolutionary_Change]

Their book, Recipes for Disaster, is really helpful for performing direct action: breaking down step by step how to perform a variety of actions from banner drops to lock downs as well as offering advice on organizing a commune or activist network.

their site also offers some good Anarchist analysis of the political situation and honest assesment of actions and protests.

as for whether a group like crimethinc will ever provoke a powerful revolutionary movement I think that is unlikely. They seem somewhat isolated from the majority of people in the united states, and do little outreach beyond the Anarchist community. However they are a great resource for those who have already embraced anti capitalist ideas. They do far more than the multitude of armchair leftists who merely complain about the world while making no positive effort to change it.

[AnonymousOne]

I <3 CrimeThinc for this alone:

http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/posters/gender_big.gif

[WyoLeftist]

I've read a few of their books, such as "Days of War, Nights of Love" and "Expect Resistance" and I agree with what most people have said here, their dedication to DIY and Direct Action is impeccable and undeniable. They weren't what initially got me into leftist politics, but they're a good source for beginners, for sure. What got me into left-wing politics was, ironically, the overwhelming level of fascism in my home state, and my home town. I wanted to find something different, rather than keep perpetuating the same "My daddy was a 'publican, so i be a 'publican" crap that dominates the politics here.

[The Douche]

Since crimethinc is basically just a label/publishing house there can be some very different, sometimes even opposing stuff that comes out and gets lumped into "crimethinc".

I think they're generally a decent group, who produce useful propaganda, and interesting literature. And the analysis contained in rolling thunder is usually pretty good, and RT is, in my opinion, a useful and reading-worthy publication for all revolutionaries, especially anarchists.

[Magón]

their dedication to Direct Action is impeccable and undeniable.

I wouldn't go that far. It's okay, but not one of the best.

[WyoLeftist]

I wouldn't go that far. It's okay, but not one of the best.

Where would you suggest I look, then? I'm always looking for new ideas and inspiration.

[Ose]

I've only read some of their short online articles, but if nothing else I'm a fan of the emotive, romantic style of prose in which many of them are written. I think there is some value in this in terms of its capability for inspiration.

Yes, they do seem to be a bit lifestylist, but that doesn't mean we can't take anything good at all from their oeuvre.

[Magón]

Where would you suggest I look, then? I'm always looking for new ideas and inspiration.

RAAN can be entertaining sometimes.

But I wouldn't be too inspired by either CrimethInc or RAAN.

[The Douche]

RAAN can be entertaining sometimes.

But I wouldn't be too inspired by either CrimethInc or RAAN.

Crimethinc has a thousand times more ideas and interesting approaches to direct action than RAAN does.

[Magón]

Crimethinc has a thousand times more ideas and interesting approaches to direct action than RAAN does.

Yeah, but you hear more about RAAN's actions than CrimethInc. At least in my area you do.

Plus, most direct action groups just take ideas from one another anyway.

[The Douche]

Yeah, but you hear more about RAAN's actions than CrimethInc. At least in my area you do.

Plus, most direct action groups just take ideas from one another anyway.

RAAN hasn't done an "action" in a long time.


And actions don't get claimed by crimethinc, because crimethinc is not an organization. So occasionally you might have a crimethinc "convergence" or an action might be claimed by somebody who calls themselves crimethinc (but this is extremely rare, in fact I can't think of the last time it happened).


You're approaching crimethinc from the wrong place I think. For instance, nobody asks "what does AK press do?", cause they're just a publisher, well, really, thats all crimethinc is. So crimethinc writes books and zines and propaganda, thats what they do, thats their goal. Not to carry out direct action, though, no doubt, people involved with crimethinc engage in direct action, but most often under the name of something other than crimethinc.

Just as I'm sure people involved in AK press are also involved in direct action, but its not claimed by AK press.

[Ravachol]

Crimethinc has a thousand times more ideas and interesting approaches to direct action than RAAN does.

Yes, but far less people seem to be involved in RAAN afaik. What I really miss in CrimeThinc is any sort of consistent communist perspective, something RAAN does have.

[Os Cangaceiros]

RAAN would be pretty cool if Nachie didn't have such weird New Age-type opinions.

The structure and ideology (with the exception of a few boneheaded beliefs and generally a lack of understanding regarding Marxism IMO) of RAAN is a lot more intriguing than the structure and ideology of Crimethinc IMO. As I believe maldoror said once, RAAN is (or rather had the capability of being) cool because it positioned itself as a communist "organization" for people who hate capitalism but also hate the dead-end that is the historic Left. Crimethinc started out as basically a contribution towards "radical philosophy", an kind of neo-situationism of sorts, which I don't find interesting in the slightest. I understand that they've moved away from this and have moved more towards a more concrete critique of political economy, though, which I think is a very positive development, and I'm looking foward to their latest output ("Work"). The nagging criticism of "lifestylist" Crimethinc that you still hear from time to time is very tiresome.

[WyoLeftist]

I've often wondered why CrimethInc gets pegged as 'lifestylist.' While they're very romantic in their ideology, I don't really see that as a negative. Their romanticising, and almost mythological prose, could have help convert people to the cause.

[bricolage]

The nagging criticism of "lifestylist" Crimethinc that you still hear from time to time is very tiresome.
Yeah despite some of the dross Crimethinc have at times put out, the critiques of them have been just as lame, full of LONG MARCH TO REVOLUSHIONNN rehashed platformist yadda yadda. I suppose they were right in one respect about politics being boring as shit.

[bricolage]

Has anyone read Work? I thought it looked really interesting but I think someone on libcom was saying it was just them catching up with what others had already written in the 90s. The poster they did for it looked really nice though.

[Red And Black Sabot]

I honestly love crimethinc right now. A few years ago i was definitely a lot more critical of them but that's when they were putting out nothing but lifestylist junk. I do think it's a valid critique of old crimethinc because there was definitely a time when I would have said crimethinc was trying to equate adventurism, hitchhiking, punk, and dumpster diving to having a real radical praxis and had almost no class analysis whatsoever but lately, they've been more and more self critical and have been putting out some of the best reports I've been able to find. Really... for about two years now, they've been pretty brilliant. I like the essays they put out after every major political event, plus Fighting In The New Terrain was awesome along with their new book Work which is well worth checking out. I some what agree with the last comment that it's nothing entirely new but the way crimethinc puts certain things does make it easier to grasp and kind of gets you jacked and ready to take the streets.

[The Douche]

Comparing RAAN to crimethinc is like comparing apples to oranges.

RAAN is an "action network", one which doesn't do any action these days.

Crimethinc is a publishing house.

They shouldn't be compared. I could make a whole thread about what RAAN is (well, mostly isn't). But I'm pretty sure RAAN talk, other than in passing mention is still not acceptable on here.

I was involved with RAAN for a fair ammount of time, and the problem it has isn't one individuals esoteric or semi-new-age ideas about nature. It also never really was an organization that existed outside the domain of "the left", and it was never really against "activism".

RAAN was always just like every other leftist club, they just used some different language and tried to present a different image. As with all leftists clubs, its main focus was always recruitment, and usually recruitment from other competing leftist sects.

[Susurrus]

Comparing RAAN to crimethinc is like comparing apples to oranges.



Crimethinc is a publishing house.



Well, the whole point of Crimethinc is that anyone can call themselves crimethinc, so while it is true that Crimethinc.com and the Far East Cell is mainly a publishing house, the many other cells, collectives, or whatever you want to call them have different focuses.

[The Douche]

Well, the whole point of Crimethinc is that anyone can call themselves crimethinc, so while it is true that Crimethinc.com and the Far East Cell is mainly a publishing house, the many other cells, collectives, or whatever you want to call them have different focuses.

Can you direct me to some actions that have taken place and been carried out by crimethinc collectives/cells, or perhaps a website/blog/facebook of a crimethinc collective that does something other than publish texts?


I know there have been actions claimed by crimethinc in the past, but to my knowledge they are all in the distant past, and crimethinc's only permanent presence is their publishing capabilities.

I've been engaged in the anarchist movement for almost ten years, and have never come into contact with an actual organization that refers to itself as part of crimethinc.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Evasion and Off the Map are pretty great books published by Crimethinc

[Susurrus]

Can you direct me to some actions that have taken place and been carried out by crimethinc collectives/cells, or perhaps a website/blog/facebook of a crimethinc collective that does something other than publish texts?


I know there have been actions claimed by crimethinc in the past, but to my knowledge they are all in the distant past, and crimethinc's only permanent presence is their publishing capabilities.

I've been engaged in the anarchist movement for almost ten years, and have never come into contact with an actual organization that refers to itself as part of crimethinc.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070928130453/http://www.athensnews.com/issue/article.php3?story_id=28894

http://www.dailycampus.com/2.7437/punk-show-rocks-student-union-1.1073046 -not direct action, but not publishing

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2004/08/64602

These sources are, of course, not including the numerous first-hand accounts related in various Crimethinc publications. Also, their convergances could be counted as actions.

[The Douche]

You got me on the hacking, I didn't remember that one.

But the first was a crimethinc convergence, which I already acknowledged. It wasn't an action, it was a convergence which included an unsanctioned march, virtually every punk show I have ever been to in DC as ended in a small unsanctioned march as well.

And distributing merch at a show means nothing. I have a big box of crimethinc merch in my apartment, I've given it out at shows before, it doesn't, in my mind, count as some sort of action.



These sorts of actions aren't on the same level as actions that most permanent organizations carry out. Like I mean, they have no permanent presence who's goal is to engage in action, they just occasionally carry out actions in the name of crimethinc, whereas RAAN is an existing organization which seeks to build its membership and organize people.



Don't get me wrong, I am probably one of the biggest pro-crimethinc posters on this website, but they're not an organization which focuses on action.

[Susurrus]

Although I agree they are not the sort to plan large marches or any such thing, from what I can tell they do do a lot of fly by night direct action ie sabotage, etc, which requires a lot of security culture and isn't large enough to attract major media attention.

[The Douche]

Although I agree they are not the sort to plan large marches or any such thing, from what I can tell they do do a lot of fly by night direct action ie sabotage, etc, which requires a lot of security culture and isn't large enough to attract major media attention.

Well most groups don't plan mass actions, but participate in the organizing of mass actions with other groups. Crimethinc does neither.

More commonly in my experience, crimethinc is a label which individuals, who are not connected to the larger anarchist organizations take and use when they want to get active. So they want to distribute propaganda, they use crimethinc stuff, they want to do a banner drop, but want it to be seen as being connected to something larger than themselves, so they use the crimethinc label.

In this regard its very similar to how RAAN presented itself. That individuals could do anything they wanted, and attach it to the label or "brand" of RAAN, and it became more powerful because now you were doing it in the context of a multi-national, multi-continental organization.

But crimethinc, unlike RAAN, is not particularly interested in promoting themselves as an organization, and plainly states that they do not view themselves as such. And they certainly don't care if people undertake actions in their name, which is RAAN's main goal, to get people to do something and call it a RAAN action, crimethinc is more interested in producing tools for people to use.

[ellipsis]

I've often wondered why CrimethInc gets pegged as 'lifestylist.'

Because people love to judge others and talk shit on other leftists whom they don't know.

This thread is going OK for now, but lets not it devolve into a anti-primitivist flame war, OK?

But yes OP, this is a repeated thread.

[The Douche]

Because people love to judge others and talk shit on other leftists whom they don't know.

This thread is going OK for now, but lets not it devolve into a anti-primitivist flame war, OK?

But yes OP, this is a repeated thread.

I've never met a primitivist who was particularly into crimethinc, and crimethinc has made some comments that are very critical of primitivism.


I always wondered why some people associated the two. Maybe west coast primitivists are more into crimethinc than the primitivists out here?

[Red And Black Sabot]

I can agree that Crimethinc overall is probably anti-civ but I don't think that's the same thing as being primitivist. I don't think I've ever read anything published by crimethinc that argued we all move toward a hunter gatherer society.

[The Douche]

I can agree that Crimethinc overall is probably anti-civ but I don't think that's the same thing as being primitivist. I don't think I've ever read anything published by crimethinc that argued we all move toward a hunter gatherer society.

I've never even seen anti-civ stuff from crimethinc, but it would not surprise me to read it in a publication of theirs.

Really, crimethinc is just a pro-situ anarchist philosophy club/record label.


Dropping out is just derive taken to an extreme.

[WyoLeftist]

I've, personally, never been able to get a grasp on The Situationist International, that trend has always kind of confused me. I know they had a lot to do with a lot of the things that went on in 1968 and so forth, but I've never really figured out exactly what it is they stood for or believed.

[The Douche]

I've, personally, never been able to get a grasp on The Situationist International, that trend has always kind of confused me. I know they had a lot to do with a lot of the things that went on in 1968 and so forth, but I've never really figured out exactly what it is they stood for or believed.

Its best to read most SI stuff with the understanding that it is philosophy, and not so much practical theory. There are still practical things in it though.

Really the SI was a left-communist group, who grew out of some council-communist circles in France.

[bricolage]

Really the SI was a left-communist group, who grew out of some council-communist circles in France.
I'm not sure. Most left communists have pretty big issues with the Situationists and as opposed to coming out of council communism it emerged more from various art movements and groups like Socialisme ou Barbarie who, despite being 'libertarian', trace their lineage to Trotskyism.

[o well this is ok I guess]

I love being here and not Libcom

But let's face it. Anarchy in the Age of Dinosaurs was really, really bad.

[bricolage]

I don't think anyone would deny that Crimethinc have written a lot a lot of shit but within any dirt there can be a few flowers.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I've, personally, never been able to get a grasp on The Situationist International, that trend has always kind of confused me. I know they had a lot to do with a lot of the things that went on in 1968 and so forth, but I've never really figured out exactly what it is they stood for or believed.

That's why you're an Anarcho-Syndicalist, you actually believe in working-class self organization and reality and shit like that:lol:. Sorry I'm just being a jerk.

But seriously, if all anarchists became syndicalists or some other class-focused anarchist tradition, I'd dance for joy. If Crimethink helps attract some people to the left (and then they develop past those basic ideas), then I'm glad it's there, but I think their politics are useless for the class struggle.

I just came from this "autonomist" discussion about "Future Art Economies" and I totally agree with the end goal they were putting forward of "abolishing artists" and having a society where historical art is available to everyone, art-tools and places to learn skills are widely available, and art is a part of our everyday lives. How do we get there... this is where I felt that this discussion was in la-la land... we get there by creating art-making communes. I'd love to read that grant proposal: give me a couple of million dollars to set up an art collective that will then go off the grid and make paintings and sculptures for our own personal enrichment. Sigh, idealist artists.

[WyoLeftist]

Well, the reason I believe in syndicalism and organising the working class in the form of labor unions is because of my personal experience with unions. My fathers been an officer in his local for the last 20 years, and me being 23, I've been seeing and living that sort of, what I call, "working class lifestyle" my entire life. My grandfathers were both oil rig rough necks, their wives worked as secretaries for the oil companies, my fathers a unionized railroad engineer, and me and my mother both work at a coal mine (me as a fueler/lube tech/mechanic, and my mother as an expiditor working in purchasing.) The only bummer about the coal mine I work in is that its unorganized. Wyoming, being the Right to Work State that it is, is short on unions, and people who support them. The common argument is "They just take money out of your paycheck to do what you could do yourself." Last time I went in to my bosses office and asked for a raise, I thought he was either gonna fall out of his chair laughing or punch me in the face.

While I appreciate everything that art gives the world, I just don't see how it will help give the power to the working class to truely take charge of our lives. Post-revolution, I believe there will be a HUGE boom in great art, whether that art is painting, literature, or what have you, as I think the establishment plays a big part in what gets out to the masses and what doesnt.

[The Douche]

Jimmie, you're painting a false dichotomy there.

Its not "syndicalism or crimethinc". For instance, there was a great article in a past rolling thunder (not sure if i still have it anymore, and I'm at work right now, otherwise I'd post the number/a link) about how the author spent a bunch of time working as a union organizer.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I <3 CrimeThinc for this alone:

http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/posters/gender_big.gif

for every poor person starving to death, there is a rich person counting calories and sweating it.

[Tim Finnegan]

for every poor person starving to death, there is a rich person counting calories and sweating it.
For every poster sincerely trying to contribute to a thread, there is another trying to score easy points with trite remarks.

[Franz Fanonipants]

For every poster sincerely trying to contribute to a thread, there is another trying to score easy points with trite remarks.

tx bro

but srsly that infographic or whatever it is sucks in describing patriarchy.

[Desperado]

but srsly that infographic or whatever it is sucks in describing patriarchy.

The intention isn't to describe patriarchy per se, but rather society's enforced gender roles.

[Franz Fanonipants]

It's not describing patriarchy per se, but rather society's enforced gender roles.

that's patriarchy, comrade

[Desperado]

that's patriarchy, comrade

Patriarchy is gender roles, but gender roles aren't (necessarily) patriarchy.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Patriarchy is gender roles, but gender roles isn't patriarchy.

its a fair cop.

but honestly that shit pisses me off, i'm not gonna try and minimize the fact that men are constrained by certain gender roles, but my original post was about the fact that even the guy who feels tired of being forced to act "masculine" still profits off of that construct of masculinity &tc.

[Tim Finnegan]

that's patriarchy, comrade
Even on a purely semantic level, no, it isn't. Patriarchy is the domination of men over women, or, more generally, of the masculine over the feminine- "patriarchy" literally means the "rule of the father". A strictly enforced gender binary is how this manifests itself, certainly, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

Edit: X-post, sort of.

[Desperado]

its a fair cop.

No. Not all gender roles are about one sexes subordination - it can be of both sexes to some higher coercing and conforming authority.

[Desperado]

but honestly that shit pisses me off, i'm not gonna try and minimize the fact that men are constrained by certain gender roles, but my original post was about the fact that even the guy who feels tired of being forced to act "masculine" still profits off of that construct of masculinity &tc.

If I'm laughed at for wearing pink how am I profiting?

[Libertador]

What I enjoyed most about Recipe for Disaster was the inspiration and personal stories of Anarchists found therein. We need more of that.

[The Douche]

I just ordered the new book "work", today. I've heard some good things about it.

[o well this is ok I guess]

I can't find a single online pdf for it.
Man, Crimethinc is selling out.

[Libertador]

I can't find a single online pdf for it.
Man, Crimethinc is selling out.Revolutionaries gotta eat.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Revolutionaries gotta eat. Especially now that all the good dumpsters have trash compactors.

[The Douche]

I can't find a single online pdf for it.
Man, Crimethinc is selling out.

Crimethinc doesn't like to put their books out for free. Evasion, expect resistance, days of war, none of them are distributed free by crimethinc that I know of. I torrented mine.

[Franz Fanonipants]

If I'm laughed at for wearing pink how am I profiting?

in the rest of your non-pink wearing life i would assume.

i mean bro i don't like date rape and ufc but i'm not gonna act like i don't profit from male world domination.

[bcbm]

Crimethinc doesn't like to put their books out for free. Evasion, expect resistance, days of war, none of them are distributed free by crimethinc that I know of. I torrented mine.

a lot of the articles from days of war are on the website though

[twenty percent tip]

crimethink guys (only guysno womens join it) unless. loose all credability because tyey wear color contacts and grow dirty bird dreadlocks and move to shitty neighborhoods cause they need money fro stella artios beer. fucking fake whinos. SPOK! i heard they fought some guys over anarchy and got faces smashedup. in a wearhouse. where? ina house. haharg

so theyre econormic analysist dont count. get it? its a puin . ecoomics dont count. sorry :D

plusthey pose as a secret clandestine groups which allows them to be with no accountability. great job pie holers. FOUR! watch out for green golf balls :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[black magick hustla]

considering they were involved in crustpunk they prolly wear dreadlocks who takes seriously the views of white ppl with dreadlocks

[twenty percent tip]

nobody except theguy who sellsthem mayonease to putintheirhair. its extra buisiness for hi,m

BON MARLEY:laugh:

[Magón]

Since when has CrimethInc started posting movies on their site?:confused:

[twenty percent tip]

since blockbuster closed outfobusiness and they got dvds on closeout. :cool: its socfialism

[Tim Finnegan]

considering they were involved in crustpunk they prolly wear dreadlocks who takes seriously the views of white ppl with dreadlocks
Presumably a similar number to those who take the opinions of people who can't work out any more advanced criticism than "I'm going to assume you have hairstyle X, therefore you suck" seriously. :p

[The Douche]

Looks like twenty percent tip needs to get Bailey'd.

[black magick hustla]

Presumably a similar number to those who take the opinions of people who can't work out any more advanced criticism than "I'm going to assume you have hairstyle X, therefore you suck" seriously. :p

its a pretty legit way of dismissing people have u ever seen people with mullets do u actually take them seriously well dreadlocks are 10x worse because they have an ideological factor in them

[Franz Fanonipants]

i told a white dude w/dredlocks one time to "get his own hair"

[Tim Finnegan]

its a pretty legit way of dismissing people have u ever seen people with mullets do u actually take them seriously well dreadlocks are 10x worse because they have an ideological factor in them
Yeah, I think you've given this spiel before.


i told a white dude w/dredlocks one time to "get his own hair"
Presumably you also say this to black people, given that in both cases the primary influence was Hindu mystics?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Presumably you also say this to black people, given that in both cases the primary influence was India Hindus?

nope, cus black dudes didn't colonize india but tx for the historical tip.

[Tim Finnegan]

nope, cus black dudes didn't colonize india but tx for the historical tip.
Well, it's not common for monolithic ire racial categories do anything much, given that they're an ideological fiction, rather than an actual club, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at, here.

[The Douche]

I hate revleft so fucking much sometimes, because everytime there is a thread I care about or on a topic that is interesting/relevant to me, people troll the fuck out of it.

[ellipsis]

The only bummer about the coal mine I work in is that its unorganized.

I really find this hard to believe. Nothing else sucks about working in a coal mine?


I hate revleft so fucking much sometimes, because everytime there is a thread I care about or on a topic that is interesting/relevant to me, people troll the fuck out of it.

This.


for every poor person starving to death, there is a rich person counting calories and sweating it.

Verbal warning for trolling.


crimethink guys (only guysno womens join it) unless. loose all credability because tyey wear color contacts and grow dirty bird dreadlocks and move to shitty neighborhoods cause they need money fro stella artios beer. fucking fake whinos. SPOK! i heard they fought some guys over anarchy and got faces smashedup. in a wearhouse. where? ina house. haharg

so theyre econormic analysist dont count. get it? its a puin . ecoomics dont count. sorry :D

plusthey pose as a secret clandestine groups which allows them to be with no accountability. great job pie holers. FOUR! watch out for green golf balls :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Three verbal warnings:

One for horrible typing, quit wasting our time with shit like "enocormic analysist". Ironic considering you are talking about people who publish books that they edit before publishing.

One for trolling.

One for flaming this page with drivel.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

One for flaming this page with drivel.

How do you flame a page? :confused:

[Thirsty Crow]

i told a white dude w/dredlocks one time to "get his own hair"
Cmoney, sorry for spamming, but I gotta call this out.
Why are comments such as this one not considered a banable offense? The guy is trolling the hell out of the thread and moreover the comment has a nasty racialist dimension.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Jimmie, you're painting a false dichotomy there.

Its not "syndicalism or crimethinc". For instance, there was a great article in a past rolling thunder (not sure if i still have it anymore, and I'm at work right now, otherwise I'd post the number/a link) about how the author spent a bunch of time working as a union organizer.Sure, it's not monolithic, but as far as I understand their politics, their main answer to worker exploitation is not to work. That's not a class-based strategy, it's just being a hippie who knows leftist jargon. I don't read the site, so this is my impression from the things I have read and conversations I've had with fans of theirs - it is probably an oversimplification but in general I think this is not a helpful for fighting beyond an induvidual level. If "not-working" is their strategy, then it is certainty contrary to syndicalism. It's idealist socialism at best and radical liberalism at worst.

"Poverty, unemployment, homelessness – if you’re not having fun, you’re not doing it right!" Hmm... yeah that shit might fly in the late 1990s for some kids who don't have to worry about poverty in the first place... it's pretty obnoxious right now. Are the 25% of unemployed youth out there now "having fun" - I guess they just don't know the right way to be poor. In the face of economic crisis, a lot of rhetoric just seems like "slumming it" for fun or poverty tourism.

They've also just been plain wrong as historical events have developed. I remember Crimethink fans saying that the capitalist state is irrelevant and globalization means an end to wars between nation-states because corporations were more important.

Basically as I see it, they are interested in fighting a culture, not class, war. There's nothing inherently wrong with a lot of the pranks they advocate and I really enjoy culture-jamming and a lot of that stuff from the late 1990s, and I also like subcultures and think that it's good if people develop an oppositional culture... but these things also are not really good ideas or strategy for, as they claim to want to do, changing the world (not on a class level anyway). A lot of it seem like accommodating to the system by finding a dodge within it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

poverty tourism

Is that a real thing? If so, I need to start selling tickets to my life. I may have just found my market.

[Chromatic]

I mean, I give props to Crimethinc because (as many have said here) they get a lot of suburban kids who otherwise would have no leftist political motivation or exposure into revolutionary politics. That said, if we are going to try to take them seriously I think there are some real problems.

Again, as stated, they have no real revolutionary program aside from a wishy-washy "one day, we will all break windows and hop trains". There are few real answers to real problems and the whole thing falls apart when one broadens their horizons past the personal liberation that most of the writings seem to be dedicated to.

The are bashed as "lifestylist" because, well, they are. The dumpster divng, shop lifting, train hopping thing is a lifestyle. If you do not live it, your tactics are in conflict with those espoused in Crimethinc. I hate to say this because it sounds condescending, but you dont see many Crimethinc-style people older than 25, non-white, of non-middle/upper class backgrounds.

Crimethinc has its place in every infoshop/radical book store, but I would be sure to keep it under the "intro" section...

On another note, I just have to post this joke:

How many Crimethinc kids does it take to change a lightbulb?

There were only two of us, wandering listlessly in the night. The city glowed bright in all of its excess. When we stepped foot in that abandoned warehouse, the first thing we saw was the burned out lightbulbs, hanging from the mold-spattered ceiling. It only took us a couple minutes to switch out that vacuum-filled shell. We hadn’t only made a change in the warehouse, but in our hearts. We climbed up to the roof to watch the stars, cars zipping by like ants, oblivious to the beauty that rests above them. When we woke up to the sun-rise we knew, we just fucking knew, we could could change a hell of a lot more than just lightbulbs.

[hatzel]

There are few real answers to real problems and the whole thing falls apart when one broadens their horizons past the personal liberation that most of the writings seem to be dedicated to.

If you can't liberate yourself, who are you expecting to do it for you? And how could they liberate you if they can't even liberate themselves? :)

[Jimmie Higgins]

If you can't liberate yourself, who are you expecting to do it for you? How does dumpster-diving or not-working help the working class to achieve self-emancipation? Dumpster-diving or petty scams doesn't hurt, it saves some money maybe, maybe it's fun but it doesn't challenge class rule or the capitalist state.

There's a Coup song all about scamming the system - in the verses, Boots Riley lists all these scams to get free cable and healthcare and so on, but then in the chorus he says, you think this is all fun and clever, but that's because you don't see the scars from years of being in the position in society that causes people to have to develop these ingenious ways to deal with poverty.

That's the thing - it's a way to LIVE with inequality and a fucked up system, not a way to overcome it.

[The Douche]

Sure, it's not monolithic, but as far as I understand their politics, their main answer to worker exploitation is not to work.

And this is probably the most common criticism levelled at crimethinc. But its important to remember that, first and foremost, crimethinc does not have politics other than "anarchism", and that they are an organ for people to express their views on anarchism/the struggle for anarchism. Which is why its very possible to end up with conflicting views being advocated by things crimethinc puts out.

The same issue of RT I talked about earlier I believe had an article debating the merits of dropping out vs traditional organizing. I'm pretty sure it was in RT, or it might've been in a document they used to send out for free with every order called the "crimethinc ex-workers communique" or something like that, it was a mocked up newspaper. The point is, the article came to the conclusion that both descisions have their own benefits, and even acknowledged that not everybody in the world is going to drop out, and that dropping out won't end capitalism.


In the face of economic crisis, a lot of rhetoric just seems like "slumming it" for fun or poverty tourism.


The last thing I bought from crimethinc was recipies for disaster, which is an extremely useful text. I did just buy their latest text which is titled "work", and they produced a poster to go with it recently that is a modernized and updated version of the capitalist pyramid poster. So while dropping out has been a focus for them, I think that class struggle has surpassed it in importance, probably because a lot of the people involved 1) don't travel anymore and 2) less kids can afford to do that shit.


I remember Crimethink fans saying that the capitalist state is irrelevant and globalization means an end to wars between nation-states because corporations were more important.


I don't remember hearing things like this, but there are lots of people who say really stupid shit and call themselves anarchists. Especially since crimethinc has always had anti-globalization propaganda available.


Basically as I see it, they are interested in fighting a culture, not class, war. There's nothing inherently wrong with a lot of the pranks they advocate and I really enjoy culture-jamming and a lot of that stuff from the late 1990s, and I also like subcultures and think that it's good if people develop an oppositional culture... but these things also are not really good ideas or strategy for, as they claim to want to do, changing the world (not on a class level anyway). A lot of it seem like accommodating to the system by finding a dodge within it.

And I think, because its a loose network that exists to publish virtually anybody, that you're not inherently wrong in this analysis, but you're also not seeing the part of crimethinc who are anti-capitalists. When I was younger and a really dogmatic "red anarchist" I used to absolutely despise those "lifestyleists" and crimethinc.


Again, as stated, they have no real revolutionary program

You have to be a revolutionary organization to have a revolutionary program. Crimethinc is not an organization, they are a publisher. Their goal is not to make revolution, their goal is to make propaganda, that others can use to build for revolution.


The are bashed as "lifestylist" because, well, they are. The dumpster divng, shop lifting, train hopping thing is a lifestyle. If you do not live it, your tactics are in conflict with those espoused in Crimethinc.

First of all, there is no such thing as lifstyleism. No traveller kids think that a lifestyle will end capitalism. (and any who say it will are just idiots, and you can find idiots in crimethinc, and idiots in NEFAC, and idiots in the IWW, and idiots in the SWP or the ISO) I am not a traveller kid, please show me why that means I'm not allowed to be part of crimethinc?

In fact, crimethinc even released a communique that "all traveller kids have been purged from crimethinc". Its obviously not serious, but its obviously directed towards people who level these simple critiscisms, to make the point that crimthinc is more than 10 kids who ride trains.

[o well this is ok I guess]

They've also just been plain wrong as historical events have developed. I remember Crimethink fans saying that the capitalist state is irrelevant and globalization means an end to wars between nation-states because corporations were more important. I don't think they meant it would be the end of wars, broseph.
They're certainly concerned with capitalist globalization than the capitalist state, though.

[ellipsis]

One for horrible typing, quit wasting our time with shit like "enocormic analysist". Ironic considering you are talking about people who publish books that they edit before publishing.


Sorry I didn't realize you claim you had an accident. I apologize if this is truly the case.


How do you flame a page? :confused:

By posting three troll posts in twenty minutes on one page of one thread.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think they meant it would be the end of wars, broseph.
They're certainly concerned with capitalist globalization than the capitalist state, though.The argument was based on the "peacekeeping" wars of the 1990s. Many people argued that nation-states wouldn't get into conflict because of the interdependence of the globalized capitalist economy. Instead a general capitalist hegemony (represented by WTO and G8 etc) would use force only to push the global capitalist interests. Even after 9/11 people argued that this was the case because of "the coalition of the willing" and rebuilding a "failed state" was still the globalized capitalist's interests much like the 1990s "policing" of "rogue states" like Yugoslavia or Iraq pre-9/11. Since then, more visible splits among various ruling classes and their interests as well as capitalist competition have made these arguments much less widespread.

[o well this is ok I guess]

The argument was based on the "peacekeeping" wars of the 1990s. Many people argued that nation-states wouldn't get into conflict because of the interdependence of the globalized capitalist economy. Instead a general capitalist hegemony (represented by WTO and G8 etc) would use force only to push the global capitalist interests. Even after 9/11 people argued that this was the case because of "the coalition of the willing" and rebuilding a "failed state" was still the globalized capitalist's interests much like the 1990s "policing" of "rogue states" like Yugoslavia or Iraq pre-9/11. Since then, more visible splits among various ruling classes and their interests as well as capitalist competition have made these arguments much less widespread. I wouldn't say they're all that less widespread.
Negrism still seems somewhat popular.
And surely, you can sympathize. I cannot recall a time when an enemy wasn't posed as an enemy to civilization itself, rather than an enemy of national interest.

[bricolage]

Dunno about Negri and such still being as popular, his post 77 ideas reached a zenith in the alter-globalisation movements where you could pose emphasis on things like democracy and mass swarmings as existence of a multitude subjectively posed to create a new world. Those movements collapsed into themselves though and as has been said the return of naked inter-state war (in which I half agree with you in terms of civilisation but also the posed as an enemy to the nation-state too with the nation-state existing as a concrete microcosm example of that civilisation itself) cut out the ground from the globalisaing theories. Additionally the global financial crisis, recession and rounds of austerity have brought base class conflict back the fore and left the multitude stuck somewhere in cyberspace. Negri is invoked when talking about 'non-hierarchical' movements that still emerge but in my experience this is more an academic or journalistic imposition from above than a conscious theoretical decision from below.

[o well this is ok I guess]

I mostly mean that Empire is still fairly heavily referenced.
I won't deny that enemies are also posed as enemies of nation-state, but it seems to take a back seat to the anti-west terrorist moniker. Enemy of civilization and state, yes, but civilization being the first word.
I'm not saying Negri and the rest of the anti-globalization crowd are right, just that they can still be sympathized with.

[bricolage]

I mostly mean that Empire is still fairly heavily referenced.
Where do you mean? Academia? Journalism? Social Movements? I'm interested as I was under the impression it had sort of dropped off the radar.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Academia. I can't think of any recent contemporary theorist that hasn't made reference to Empire, and not a day goes by that someone doesn't find a way to make at least passing reference to Empire in class.
Though I'm willing to bet outside of school Empire isn't so important.

[bcbm]

Sure, it's not monolithic, but as far as I understand their politics, their main answer to worker exploitation is not to work. . . . Hmm... yeah that shit might fly in the late 1990s for some kids who don't have to worry about poverty in the first place... it's pretty obnoxious right now.
They've also just been plain wrong as historical events have developed. . . Basically as I see it, they are interested in fighting a culture, not class, war.

i went to an event a few months ago where pretty much the crimethinc guy was speaking and his whole speech was basically an apology for most of their earlier writings, he felt like most of his analysis was wrong and actually just presenting an avant-garde for how capitalism developed in the 2000s, where basically their whole approach of diy and everything is a big market now.


I remember Crimethink fans saying that the capitalist state is irrelevant and globalization means an end to wars between nation-states because corporations were more important.

that sounds like the opinion of those fans more than anything i recall seeing in crimethinc materials

[o well this is ok I guess]

But on an unrelated note I really dislike the aversion to dumpster diving a lot of people seem to have.
I mean, I'm sure we all agree it's better that food be thrown out when it has gone bad rather than before, and it's terrible waste for food to be thrown out before its time.
And besides, nothing beats free food.

[bricolage]

Academia. I can't think of any recent contemporary theorist that hasn't made reference to Empire, and not a day goes by that someone doesn't find a way to make at least passing reference to Empire in class.
Though I'm willing to bet outside of school Empire isn't so important.
Ah yeah see I think that's the point. In the Aufheben piece of Operaismo and Autonomism they note how after the defeat of the movement of 77 Negri, who was able to escape the country and hence the mass state repression largely because of his status as a professor and academic, not only became more reformist and 'post-modernist' (ie. that Foucault not Marx became his primary jumping off point) but further retreated into academia and away from lived struggles. Undoubtedly Empire has been a major stalwart of academic debate and teaching since and I imagine it still is, the difference I am saying about the alter-globalisation movement is that for a brief time it became common to those outside of higher education. As such journalists would invoke it and to some degree it was a part of the praxis of social movements (but like I said I think this was vastly overstated and heavily imposed from above). Since the collapse of the movements it no longer exists in this way and has returned back to academia, I imagine to remain there for evermore.

[ellipsis]

Cmoney, sorry for spamming, but I gotta call this out.
Why are comments such as this one not considered a banable offense? The guy is trolling the hell out of the thread and moreover the comment has a nasty racialist dimension.

Good question, unfortunately hating on hippies/crimethinc/white middle class people etc. is not a ban worthy offense. Being stupid enough to say something like that is its own punishment.

[Chromatic]

But on an unrelated note I really dislike the aversion to dumpster diving a lot of people seem to have.
I mean, I'm sure we all agree it's better that food be thrown out when it has gone bad rather than before, and it's terrible waste for food to be thrown out before its time.
And besides, nothing beats free food.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the act of dumpster diving per se. Hell, if I'm out and about at 4am I still go hunting for pizzas. I just don't think eating garbage is really an important pillar of revolutionary politics.

[The Douche]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the act of dumpster diving per se. Hell, if I'm out and about at 4am I still go hunting for pizzas. I just don't think eating garbage is really an important pillar of revolutionary politics.

I don't think anybody does.

[Libertador]

I just don't think eating garbage is really an important pillar of revolutionary politics. Oh really?

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4092/unledyn.png

[o well this is ok I guess]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the act of dumpster diving per se. Hell, if I'm out and about at 4am I still go hunting for pizzas. I just don't think eating garbage is really an important pillar of revolutionary politics. oh fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
I am ridiculously stupid
I hate myself
I should be shot
I completely forgot about scrounging for pizza
all those wasted nights ;_;

[Susurrus]

The approach of Crimethinc to revolution seems to be a revolution of secession rather than overthrow. They seem to accept that they will have a limited number of people accepting of their ideas, and they use that minimum amount of people to the maximum effect, by breaking away as much as possible from the capitalist system, at first living parasitically off of it(dumpster diving, shoplifting, etc), before creating autonomous cells/communes/whatever, which, though attacking the capitalist system, are primarily there to help those who join them. They seem to expect their numbers to swell, until they outnumber the capitalists and can either ignore them or destroy them. In the meanwhile, they have been laying the groundwork for the new society rather than for the revolution, therefore bypassing the usual confusion and chaos.

This is just my take on it, of course.

[Tim Finnegan]

Oh really?

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4092/unledyn.png
What are we looking at here, exactly? :confused:

[The Douche]

Oh really?

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4092/unledyn.png

It is only your interpretation of this image that leads you to believe the individual believes they are practicing a pillar of revolutionary strategy. You want to slag off their ideas, so you create a reason to.

The image doesn't say "make revolution this way". It says "I don't like police officers or paying for food".


The approach of Crimethinc to revolution seems to be a revolution of secession rather than overthrow. They seem to accept that they will have a limited number of people accepting of their ideas, and they use that minimum amount of people to the maximum effect, by breaking away as much as possible from the capitalist system, at first living parasitically off of it(dumpster diving, shoplifting, etc), before creating autonomous cells/communes/whatever, which, though attacking the capitalist system, are primarily there to help those who join them. They seem to expect their numbers to swell, until they outnumber the capitalists and can either ignore them or destroy them. In the meanwhile, they have been laying the groundwork for the new society rather than for the revolution, therefore bypassing the usual confusion and chaos.

This is just my take on it, of course.

How about you actually participate in the ongoing dialogue in this thread, instead of throwing out the same garbage that has already been posted on the first page.

You don't even acknowledge the reality of what crimethinc really is!

[Libertador]

It is only your interpretation of this image that leads you to believe the individual believes they are practicing a pillar of revolutionary strategy. You want to slag off their ideas, so you create a reason to.

The image doesn't say "make revolution this way". It says "I don't like police officers or paying for food".I made this in two minutes using Pixlr as a joke. My interpretation is that it was hilarious.

[bricolage]

for what it's worth crimethinc re-evaluated dropping out in fighting in the new terrain: (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/atoz/terrain.php)

Not Working—Did It Work?
The defining provocation of our early years was to take literally the Situationists’ dictum NEVER WORK. A few of us decided to test out on our own skin whether this was actually possible. This bit of bravado showed all the genius of untutored youth, and all the perils. Though countless others (http://www.zpub.com/notes/black-work.html) had trodden this road before, for us it was as if we were the first primates to be shot into space. In any case, we were doing something, taking the dream of revolution seriously as a project one might initiate in one’s own life immediately, with—as we used to say—an aristocratic disdain for consequences.
It’s tempting to brush this off as mere performance art. Yet we have to understand it as an early attempt to answer the question that still faces would-be revolutionaries in the US and Western Europe: What could interrupt our obedience? Contemporary insurrectionists (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/recentfeatures/insurrection.php) are attempting to ask this same question now, though the answers many of them offer are equally limited. By themselves, neither voluntary unemployment nor gratuitous vandalism seem to be capable of jerking society into a revolutionary situation.[2] (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) Despite everything, we stand by our initial hunch that it will take a new way of living to bring about such a situation; it’s not just a matter of putting in enough hours at the same old tasks. The essential fabric of our society—the curtain that stands between us and another world—is above all the good behavior of exploited and excluded alike.
Within a decade, history rendered our experiment obsolete, perversely granting our demand for an unemployable class. US unemployment rates, alleged to be at 4% (http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm) in the year 2000, had climbed to 10% (http://www.bls.gov/opub/ils/pdf/opbils82.pdf) by the end of 2009—only counting people known to be actively looking for work. The excess of consumer society once offered dropouts a certain margin of error; the economic crisis eroded this and gave a decidedly involuntary flavor to joblessness.
It turns out capitalism has no more use for us than we have for it. This doesn’t just go for anarchist dropouts, but for millions of workers in the US. Despite the economic crisis, major corporations are currently reporting enormous earnings (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/07/28/pm-rise-in-profits-more-hiring-not-exactly/)—but instead of using this income to hire more employees, they’re investing in foreign markets, purchasing new technology to reduce their need for employees, and paying out dividends to stockholders. What’s good for General Motors is not good for the country after all;[3] (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) the most profitable companies in the US right now are shifting both production and consumption to “developing markets” overseas.
In this context, dropout culture looks a bit like a voluntary austerity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity) program; it’s convenient for the wealthy if we reject consumer materialism, since there’s not enough to go around anyway. In the late 20th century, when the majority of people identified with their jobs, refusing to pursue employment as self-realization expressed a rejection of capitalist values. Now erratic employment and identification with one’s leisure activities rather than one’s career path have been normalized as an economic position rather than a political one.
Capitalism is also incorporating our assertion that people should act according to their consciences instead of for a wage. In an economy full of opportunities to sell one’s labor, it makes sense to emphasize the importance of other motivations for activity; in a precarious economy, being willing to work for free has different implications. The state increasingly relies on the same do-it-yourself ethic that once animated the punk underground to offset the deleterious effects of capitalism. It is cheaper to let environmentalists volunteer to clean up the BP oil spill (http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/gulf_oil_spill/wala-oil-spill-volunteer-opps-lr) than to pay employees to do this, for example. The same goes for Food Not Bombs (http://www.foodnotbombs.net/) if it is treated as a charity program rather than a way of establishing subversive flows of resources and camaraderie.
Today the challenge is not to persuade people to refuse to sell their labor, but to demonstrate how a redundant class can survive and resist. Unemployment we have in abundance—we need to interrupt the processes that produce poverty.

[ellipsis]

Cmoney, etc. people having a serious discussion, do you want me to split off you discussion to its own thread?

[Jimmie Higgins]

But on an unrelated note I really dislike the aversion to dumpster diving a lot of people seem to have.
I mean, I'm sure we all agree it's better that food be thrown out when it has gone bad rather than before, and it's terrible waste for food to be thrown out before its time.
And besides, nothing beats free food.

I have no problem if people want to do this - and certainly no problem doing it if people have to. But it's just no a meaningful political strategy as many people (especially here in the bay area) claim it is. First of all the only benefit it has is allowing people to have free food. As for stopping waste or any "consumerist" reasons - well consumerism isn't much of a strategy to begin with and second, even in terms of preventing waste, dumpster diving doesn't do anything. More fuel and food food is wasted in production and distribution than by stores tossing their unconsumed excess - more potential food is not grown at all than is wasted by stores.

If you want free food, then dumpster diving may be a way to go for you. But if you want to challenge the way food is handled in our society, if you want to take on issues of wastefulness on the business side and hunger on the poverty side, and definitely if you want to challenge the organization and current rule of society, then dumpster diving does not work.


for what it's worth crimethinc re-evaluated dropping out in fighting in the new terrain: (http://www.crimethinc.com/texts/atoz/terrain.php)Yeah it seems they have been re-evaluating a lot of their more central or wide-spread arguments. That's a good development and shows more dynamism than non-anarchist (i.e. liberal) life-stylists who do tend to see things along moral lines.

[The Douche]

Yeah it seems they have been re-evaluating a lot of their more central or wide-spread arguments. That's a good development and shows more dynamism than non-anarchist (i.e. liberal) life-stylists who do tend to see things along moral lines.

And this is the thing about crimethinc. They never were like that, sure, a lot of people who read their shit and got into them were like that, and presented crimethinc in a kind of innacurate manner.

But because crimethinc was never much more than a publisher, once the class struggle heated up, it was obviously likely that their analysis would focus more on class than culture, because its an element that always was there, even if it was at times relegated only to certain texts.

[ellipsis]

First of all the only benefit it has is allowing people to have free food. As for stopping waste or any "consumerist" reasons - well consumerism isn't much of a strategy to begin with and second, even in terms of preventing waste, dumpster diving doesn't do anything. More fuel and food food is wasted in production and distribution than by stores tossing their unconsumed excess - more potential food is not grown at all than is wasted by stores.

Dumpstering happens at lots of locations. Agreed its not a "political strategy" but dumpstering does have a real, if miniscule environmental benefit. When food is put into landfills as it breaks down it releases methane, which is a more harmful greenhouse gas than CO2.

They way i look at it when food or anything else is dumpstered, the benefits are two fold:

1) all of the resources consumed in its productions were not done so for nothing,

2) since I am not buying "new" food or shoes etc. , those commodities don't need to be produced FOR my consumption.

I dumpster for my self, my girlfriend, my friends, a FNB chapter which serves 20+ people, which only makes my "impact" that much greater, but obviously a drop in the bucket in the bigger picture.

[WyoLeftist]

I've dumpstered as best as I can in a small town, and while I agree with what most people have said about it having miniscule effect, it DID have an effect. The last 2 nights I've been having a serious discussion with several anarchists/communists/rev socialists from the next town over (which is SUBSTANTIALLY bigger than my home town) about trying to open up some sort of collectively owned/run business, which is a HELL of a lot more action than I've EVER seen or been a part of in Wyoming. These conversations began because of a prior conversation about crimethinc and dumpstering and trying to live as free as possible.