opinion on weather underground tactics

[twindragon]

I'd like to see how other leftists feel about the wou revolutionary tactics, etc. Obviously mistakes were made as is inevitable in forming active movements, but I feel a lot was done right, they were and are very knowledgable .

[scarletghoul]

Fred Hampton summed it up:
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[ellipsis]

moved to learning.

[Ocean Seal]

Not. very. effective...

[caramelpence]

I have mixed views on the Weathermen. Max Elbaum, in his book on the New Communist Movement, Revolution in the Air, argues that the WUO was an unfortunate but natural development of one segment of radical politics during the first part of the 1960s, insofar as it was based around white middle-class students who turned to terrorism because they were isolated from broader social forces like the working class and the emerging radical nationalist movements that could have realized their hopes for radical change. This is not a view that I can really accept because Elbaum does not offer an accurate characterization either of the mature WUO or the student movement from which it emerged as the RYM. He is not fair when it comes to SDS, because although it is true that SDS was initially based around elite liberal arts colleges and was heavily middle-class in its social composition, as it developed over the course of the 60s it brought in students from other backgrounds, such as students from community colleges, many of them working at the same time as being college students. He is not fair when it comes to the Weathermen, because, during the period between the collapse of SDS and the turn to terrorism as the WUO, the Weatherman did try and gain the support of alienated working-class youth, including youth who were still in secondary education. In ideological terms, though it is true that the tactics of the WUO, above all during their early years, were highly substitutionist, it is not the case that they thought a revolution would actually come about through an accumulation of terrorist attacks, as if you read their mature ideological documents and analyses like Prairie Fire, they do exhibit a class analysis and a recognition of the need for the working class to take on the leading role. This is not to say that I think the WUO is a model for revolution today (it isn't) but its history demands a nuanced approach.

[Flying Trotsky]

I think Hampton hit the nail on the head there- as much as you sympathize with the Weathermen, at the end of the day, there's a difference between being brave and being stupid.

[Tablo]

Urban guerrilla warfare and propaganda of the deed is not effective and should not be employed.

[twindragon]

I undestand everyones point of view on this, and yes hampton was right, but i do believe the wuo was effective in many ways though much could haue been done differently and thus more effectively. Also they did isolate many people and organizations that should not have been. At this time i have been focused on david gilberts incarceration , his affiliation w BLA, i highly reccomend everyone read his writings, above and beyond weather, he to me has made the most valuable points etc,

[The Douche]

Urban guerrilla warfare and propaganda of the deed is not effective and should not be employed.

But its so much fun!!



Seriously though. I fully believe that the WUO and the other urban guerrilla groups which sprang up around the same time in the west (SLA, BLA, Red Brigades, RAF, Angry Brigade etc) did contribute to the end of the vietnam war. I think the threat of insurrection and terrorism in the home country combined with a mass movement contributed to the state's decision to end the vietnam war, which was being lost.

[syndicat]

I think the threat of insurrection and terrorism in the home country combined with a mass movement contributed to the state's decision to end the vietnam war, which was being lost. you've got to be joking. there was no "threat of insurrection" back then. the Vietnam war was a defeat at the hands of the North Vietnamese army, combined with growing popular opposition in the USA.

a revolutionary transformation in this country is going to be a protracted process, and only can come about through increasing levels of mass participation in struggles, through which people change and develop their ideas & commitment. the working class has to emancipate itself through its own movement. those groups didn't see things that way.

those "armed struggle" groups of that era were completely isolated from the working class and its various oppressed segments. Their ideology was influenced by the Third World guerillaist Marxism-Leninism of that era, which led to a vanguardist, substitutionist path.

[The Douche]

you've got to be joking. there was no "threat of insurrection" back then.

a revolutionary transformation in this country is going to be a protracted process, and only can come about through increasing levels of mass participation in struggles, through which people change and develop their ideas & commitment. the working class has to emancipate itself through its own movement. those groups didn't see things that way.

those "armed struggle" groups of that era were completely isolated from the working class and its various oppressed segments. Their ideology was influenced by the Third World guerillaist Marxism-Leninism of that era, which led to a vanguardist, substitutionist path.

You would know better than I would. But I find it hard to believe there was no threat of insurrection given the mass movements against the war, and the organizing of oppressed minorities.


I want to be explicitly clear, that I do not think that the urban guerrilla strategy is a good one. I do not believe it can lead to communism, or produce a communist struggle.

I said I believe it was one contributing factor to the end of the vietnam war. Not that it was in any way going to lead to the liberation of the working class.

[Sasha]

its an very worthwhile history to study, especially so we wont make the same mistakes again.

the best written book i have read on the subject of the strenghts and weaknesses of failed urbanguerilla movements isnt actually about the WUO but about its canadian counterpart "direct action" by Ann Hansen (http://www.akpress.org/2002/items/directactionhansenpb).
the prison writings of WUO and BLA militant David Gilbert are a bit more dense but worthwhile too (http://www.akpress.org/2004/items/nosurrender).
basically about every urbanguerilla group you will find similar reflections by former members, bommi baumann's "how it all began" about the german 2nd of june and the RAF is an clasic (http://www.amazon.com/How-All-Began-Personal-Guerrilla/dp/0889780455)

[Susurrus]

Urban guerilla strategy and violent struggle has its time and its place. Neither of those have been in the United States yet, and use of those tactics only serve to alienate the people and move the struggle backwards.

As Che wrote: "The guerrilla fighter will be a sort of guiding angel who has fallen into the zone, helping the poor always and bothering the rich as little as possible in the first phases of the war. But this war will continue on its course; contradictions will continuously become sharper; the moment will arrive when many of those who regarded the revolution with a certain sympathy at the outset will place themselves in a position diametrically opposed; and they will take the first step into battle against the popular forces."

[bcbm]

But its so much fun!!



Seriously though. I fully believe that the WUO and the other urban guerrilla groups which sprang up around the same time in the west (SLA, BLA, Red Brigades, RAF, Angry Brigade etc) did contribute to the end of the vietnam war. I think the threat of insurrection and terrorism in the home country combined with a mass movement contributed to the state's decision to end the vietnam war, which was being lost.

red brigades had nothing to do with vietnam.

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't understand Hampton's critique, could someone explain? (nor do I understand the last word "custaristic"??)

[The Douche]

red brigades had nothing to do with vietnam.

They existed in the same time frame, and contributed to the era of western political violence carried out by young workers/students.



But I think the red brigades kind of existed on a whole different level, since they were organically connected to the working class.

[scarletghoul]

Urban guerilla warfare in itself isn't incorrect. Like rural guerilla war it can be successful if the masses are on the guerrilas' side (examples include ireland palestine and iraq). But without the support of the masses it is just gonna be like the weathermen etc. This is true for guerilla war whatever the terrain, rural or urban, it has to rely on popular support. Its a false dichotomy when people say guerilla war can only work in rural areas and not urban ones.. the success depends above all on popular support, not the terrain. focoism fails wherever it is.

[Sasha]

I don't understand Hampton's critique, could someone explain? (nor do I understand the last word "custaristic"??)

to be fair, the video shouldnt actually be in this thread as his comments are about an action done before the WUO went illegal.
this is about the days of rage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Rage), an pre-published attempt to create riots in chicago that failed quite spectacularly and was indeed quite Custeristic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer) (meaning leading yourself and your men to the slaughter like custer did during the battle of little bighorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn))

[¿Que?]

you've got to be joking. there was no "threat of insurrection" back then. the Vietnam war was a defeat at the hands of the North Vietnamese army, combined with growing popular opposition in the USA.

Sure there was a threat of insurrection. Look at what happened at Kent State.

[syndicat]

Sure there was a threat of insurrection. Look at what happened at Kent State.

at kent state four white students were gunned down. So? Why does this show there was a threat of a popular insurrection? you might have also mentioned the police killing of black students at Jackson state. but police killings of blacks has not been exactly unusual.

[¿Que?]

at kent state four white students were gunned down. So? Why does this show there was a threat of a popular insurrection? you might have also mentioned the police killing of black students at Jackson state. but police killings of blacks has not been exactly unusual.
It shows, maybe not an actual threat on insurrection, but that the powers that be were fearing the possibility. Remember that the whole "violent" part of violent revolution is for most a self defense measure. You can gauge the threat to power by its response.