The effect of the Economic Crisis on Hipsters?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Everybody hates hipsters and there was a hipster backlash brewing even before the stock market crash, but I'm curious as to what people think the effect of the recession has been on the concept of hipsters.

Part of my question is because I've seen a noticeable increase in the number of hipsters in my neighborhood and I'm wondering if it's a signification of impending gentrification or that the hipsters who actually didn't have trust funds are being economically pushed out of the hipster neighborhoods where the rest of us slacksters live.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Someone I knew recently went on a long tangent on this subject, regarding how my generation is supposedly one of the first to be poorer than my parent's, and about the people who "wait tables and spend what little they make on tattoos and drugs." He also speculated that the rise of "hipsters" was partly due to the general political nihilism of today's youth (which I think may be true).

Contrary to what some think, though, I don't think that most hipsters are wealthy or "trustifarians". Most of the ones I know aren't.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Contrary to what some think, though, I don't think that most hipsters are wealthy or "trustifarians". Most of the ones I know aren't.

I agree - there was definitely a stereotype as well as a grain of truth with there being a sort of small elite of wealthy hipsters. I also think some of the knee-jerk anti-hipsterism blamed these kids for gentrification which dodges the larger issues and blames the people who moved into the condos or shopped at the trendy shops rather than the developers and city governments who actually conspire and orchestrate gentrification.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've seen the kind of people labelled as "hipsters" on the street (or at least I've seen the kind of people that come to my mind when I think of the word), but I've never actually gotten to know anyone like that.

I've gotten to know goths, punks, many metalheads, and numerous chavs, but not any hipsters. This leads me to suspect that whatever "hipster" is, it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.

I remember asking once what a hipster was, and I was promptly accused of being one! That tells me that something may be wrong with the definition, since it strikes me as absurd to be part of a subculture without being aware of what it is.

Besides, when I think of a hipster I think of some knobend in tight trousers, and I wouldn't be seen dead in tight trousers. If I want to show off my legs, I prefer to wear skirts and tights.

[The Douche]

I live in a town that has a university, with a decent political science program and a decent graphic design program, two tracks that usually attract hipsters, I have met very few hipsters who are attending the college though, and those who are were not particularly over the top.

The really outrageous textbook hipsters in my town are all poor as fuck kids, most of whom dropped out of college cause they couldn't afford it, work shitty jobs, and live in shitty apartments in the ghetto.

I mean, they're still pretentious dickheads, but they're not wealthy.

[Manic Impressive]

I agree with Noxion it seems to be a slur to describe people who dress in an alternative way and come across as pretentious. Most hipsters don't seem to think that they are hipsters. Although I always think of Nathan Barley when I think of hipsters
HtUUXmEUKFk

[Angry Young Man]

the people who "wait tables and spend what little they make on tattoos and drugs."

If this is a hipster, why does everybody hate hipsters?

[bcbm]

we've had to work a bit more and switched to boxer (http://www.boxerlager.com/) (36 for $10) in lieu of pbr. more house parties than pub crawls.

[Octavian]

With the rise of things like the internet and namely facebook hipsters have pretty much stopped existing. It used to be a term for people who were in the know with the underground scene but has come to mean pretty much anybody with a beanie on and an ipod playing indie music. It's now hip to be a hipster which is self defeating. But I'm also sure you can find the odd one in a providence dive bar with his arms crossed bobbing along to his new favorite indie band.

[coda]

I personally hate labels. Everyone can probably be categorized to some extent.. But I think true labels should be reserved for those unoriginal people who you can check off on which ever given characteristic check list.

hipsters...

Beanie.. check
indie music - check
weird hair - check
reading "blank" - check
drinking "whatever" - check

not even sure - check

Down with labels.. Down with following trends...

Up with workers.. Up with revolution!

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Contrary to what some think, though, I don't think that most hipsters are wealthy or "trustifarians". Most of the ones I know aren't.
Fucking A. People call me a hipster and I'm the poorest person I know personally. I've never met anyone labelled a 'hipster' that wasn't poor and wasn't a commie/anarchist. I also think people try to generalize 'hipsters' too much, where-as it isn't actually a self-conscious sub-culture or set of norms and values, but really a douchey slur some people use against people.

Basically, shut up about hipsters because its stupid and meaningless. You might as well go on about chavs because its just as classist and uninformed as slagging off the next stereotyped 'sub-culture'.

[coda]

True Mahmoud, I so agree... everyone is so much more than a stereotypical subculture, (which is actually what i was trying to say above). Most everyone could be categorically fitting somewhere. Unless they were nude and had no interests... Also, so-called subcultures change per generation. What a hipster was in the 1940's may not be what a hipster is today.

For me, who totally believes in personal autonomy and still being an anarchist communist, As long as someone isn't following a "trendy script "and is being true to their selves and personal likes ---then they are way cool to me.

[Leftsolidarity]

Where I'm at there are a number of hipsters and they are ALL rich. I have a few that are friends but for the most part they annoy me. If you don't know what a hipster is you most likely are not one since they usually take pride in their excessive annoyingness. I'm not saying that there aren't any poor hipsters since others have said they know some but from my experiences they've all been rich.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I also think some of the knee-jerk anti-hipsterism blamed these kids for gentrification which dodges the larger issues and blames the people who moved into the condos or shopped at the trendy shops rather than the developers and city governments who actually conspire and orchestrate gentrification.

Yeah...I don't think blaming those people for gentrification makes any sense whatsoever. The simple fact of the matter is that the reason "hipster" types often choose to live in low-income areas is the reason anyone does: property values and rent is low. Why the hell should anyone be blamed for moving into one of these neighborhoods because their check waiting tables or working as a cashier at a grocery store isn't enough?!

But yeah. I lived in one of those neighborhoods for a while. Because I didn't really have any money at the time and I hate leeching off my parents. One of the biggest hipsters I've ever met also lived there...he didn't even have a job or any money. He "paid" his rent by working for an old woman (his landlord) in her large vegetable garden (which also provided his food lol).

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

solidarity forever says it well enough for me.

[bricolage]

I've gotten to know goths, punks, many metalheads, and numerous chavs, but not any hipsters. This leads me to suspect that whatever "hipster" is, it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.
oooooorrrr... you hang out with different subcultures?
coincidentally your use of chav leads me to suspect that whatever you are it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder - see two can play at that game.


Besides, when I think of a hipster I think of some knobend in tight trousersbecause only rich kids can afford tight jeans?
the point everyone missed in that being a dickheads cool song is that he says he works in media but he's really on the dole, hispters might have pretensions of glory but like all are constrained by material conditions.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

oooooorrrr... you hang out with different subcultures?

Possibly. As I noted, the definition of hipster appears to be quite amorphous, to the point where some think it an appropriate appellation for folks like myself. Certainly I've never considered myself to be a hipster, or considered it a lifestyle worth pursuing.


coincidentally your use of chav leads me to suspect that whatever you are it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder - see two can play at that game.

You're just itching for a verbal slap-about, aren't you? Is that why your language and tone are all passive-aggressive?

Contrary to your self-righteous fight-picking, "chav" as a term is not universally derogatory, and nor is it used only by the Daily Mail-reading curtain-twitching types.


because only rich kids can afford tight jeans?

No, because I think tight jeans look stupid, especially on guys with legs like pipe cleaners. That's my purely aesthetic judgement.


the point everyone missed in that being a dickheads cool song is that he says he works in media but he's really on the dole, hispters might have pretensions of glory but like all are constrained by material conditions.

Since when are material conditions an excuse for acting like a pretentious fuckstick? Whatever you happen to be wearing?

[bcbm]

whats all this talk about beanies?


No, because I think tight jeans look stupid, especially on guys with legs like pipe cleaners.

:(:(

[bricolage]

your aesthetic judgements were based on the shadow of your assumption that 'it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder', ie. hipsters are not working class. undoubtedly you are right that it's a unclear category, in which case your sociological assertions make even less sense, if you don't know what a hipster is how can you say where they are commonly found? I mentioned material circumstances to counter that same point and to note that shock horror sometimes the working class or even those 'commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder' can be pretentious.

and chav is a very class ridden term, some Labour party hack wrote a book about it recently I think that some trot hacks are going nuts over. that some people may use it differently doesn't really matter (some black people have reappropriated nigger does that mean it is no longer racist when used by others? there is something called queer theory now, does that mean it is not homophobic when used by others? - and note before you jump on it I am not implying that racism and homophobia exist on the same level as chav bashing, just using them as linguistic examples). the predominant use of the term, the most common way it is invoked and its origins led it to being on the whole an elitist smear. for americans reading this is sort of similar to redneck or trailer trash.

[Quail]

I don't really know any hipsters to be honest. There are certain places in town where people who wear tight jeans and ridiculous fake glasses hang out, but they're not particularly expensive ones. When the people I know use the word "hipster" they're more just referring to the pretentious poser stereotype as opposed to anything rooted in class.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

your aesthetic judgements were based on the shadow of your assumption that 'it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder', ie. hipsters are not working class.

First of all, it wasn't am assumption, it was a hypothesis awaiting further data. Secondly, I never said that "hipsters are not working class", nor did I deny that they could be. It's a subculture, not an economic relation.


undoubtedly you are right that it's a unclear category, in which case your sociological assertions make even less sense, if you don't know what a hipster is how can you say where they are commonly found?

Because I'm speaking from personal experience. If I had any data I would present it.


I mentioned material circumstances to counter that same point and to note that shock horror sometimes the working class or even those 'commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder' can be pretentious.

Indeed, but it's hardly like hipsters have a monopoly on pretension.


and chav is a very class ridden term, some Labour party hack wrote a book about it recently I think that some trot hacks are going nuts over. that some people may use it differently doesn't really matter (some black people have reappropriated nigger does that mean it is no longer racist when used by others? there is something called queer theory now, does that mean it is not homophobic when used by others? - and note before you jump on it I am not implying that racism and homophobia exist on the same level as chav bashing, just using them as linguistic examples). the predominant use of the term, the most common way it is invoked and its origins led it to being on the whole an elitist smear. for americans reading this is sort of similar to redneck or trailer trash.

Why should I let the under-informed opinions of idiot reactionaries colour my perception of a particular subculture? If some upper-class twit thinks being a chav is synonymous with being a violent antisocial criminal, why should I take that any more seriously than the stereotype of goths being suicidal?

[bricolage]

First of all, it wasn't am assumption, it was a hypothesis awaiting further data.
Well ok, I'm not really sure I see the practical difference outside of word play, but ok.

Secondly, I never said that "hipsters are not working class", nor did I deny that they could be.
The thread is about the economic conditions of the strange group known as hipsters to which you replied, 'This leads me to suspect that whatever "hipster" is, it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.' I saw 'bottom of the socioeconomic ladder' as largely interchangeable with working class but I suppose you could say I was reading too much into it.

Why should I let the under-informed opinions of idiot reactionaries colour my perception of a particular subculture? If some upper-class twit thinks being a chav is synonymous with being a violent antisocial criminal, why should I take that any more seriously than the stereotype of goths being suicidal?
Because the 'under-informed opinions' came first and still form the dominant narrative on chavs. It's not like everyone was calling themself a chav for decades and suddenly men in top hats decided to make it a derogatory term. The category is in the vast majority of times used in a pejorative manner, quite clearly related to the way the category was formed as is predominantly invoked. I'm not sure what anyone gets for playing into this.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well ok, I'm not really sure I see the practical difference outside of word play, but ok.

My understanding is that an assumption is more "solid" than a hypothesis. People make assumptions and act on them, but you do not necessarily act on a hypothesis due to its fundamentally unproven nature.


The thread is about the economic conditions of the strange group known as hipsters to which you replied, 'This leads me to suspect that whatever "hipster" is, it is not something commonly found near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.' I saw 'bottom of the socioeconomic ladder' as largely interchangeable with working class but I suppose you could say I was reading too much into it.

You were forgetting the "socio" part of the deal. Certain subcultures are more accepted among certain circles than others.


Because the 'under-informed opinions' came first and still form the dominant narrative on chavs. It's not like everyone was calling themself a chav for decades and suddenly men in top hats decided to make it a derogatory term. The category is in the vast majority of times used in a pejorative manner, quite clearly related to the way the category was formed as is predominantly invoked. I'm not sure what anyone gets for playing into this.

I'm not sure what is to be gained by admitting defeat, rolling over and playing along with the "dominant narrative", myself. If chavs are not the violent hooligans the borgeouis media paint them as, then as far as I am concerned the fault lies entirely with them, not with a term that can be used neutrally, and should be used as such more often in my opinion.

In my experience, people who conform to the chav image and/or subculture are no more or less violent than any other person. The subculture gets a bad rap because it is popular with young and/or poor people and the people writing about them in the borgeouis media tend to be rich and/or old.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

This thread is getting too serious.


Fucking A. People call me a hipster and I'm the poorest person I know personally. I've never met anyone labelled a 'hipster' that wasn't poor and wasn't a commie/anarchist. I also think people try to generalize 'hipsters' too much, where-as it isn't actually a self-conscious sub-culture or set of norms and values, but really a douchey slur some people use against people.

Basically, shut up about hipsters because its stupid and meaningless. You might as well go on about chavs because its just as classist and uninformed as slagging off the next stereotyped 'sub-culture'.

Fucking hipster. :thumbdown:

[bricolage]

My understanding is that an assumption is more "solid" than a hypothesis. People make assumptions and act on them, but you do not necessarily act on a hypothesis due to its fundamentally unproven nature.
Ah right I see. I think in practical and non-academic terms though they mean essentially the same thing.

You were forgetting the "socio" part of the deal. Certain subcultures are more accepted among certain circles than others.
Such as?
Subcultures transcend economic conditions in my experience.

f chavs are not the violent hooligans the borgeouis media paint them as, then as far as I am concerned the fault lies entirely with them, not with a term that can be used neutrally, and should be used as such more often in my opinion.
You get it the wrong way round, it's not that the 'bourgeois media' presents chavs as 'violent hooligans' but the category of chav was created as synonymous with 'violent hooligans' by merging together elements of clothing, ways of acting and so forth.

The subculture gets a bad rap because it is popular with young and/or poor people and the people writing about them in the borgeouis media tend to be rich and/or old.
Well yes, it's the latest way of bashing young kids of upset middle class sensibilities. The new 'yob'

[Libertador]

Do I have a beanie? = Yes
Do I have a beard? = Yes
Am I vegetarian/vegan? = Yes
Do I listen to a lot of Indie? = Yes
Do I like earth tones? = Yes
Do I drink PBR? = No, only alcoholic cider.
Do I go to second hand stores? = Yes

Outlook is bad friends.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You get it the wrong way round, it's not that the 'bourgeois media' presents chavs as 'violent hooligans' but the category of chav was created as synonymous with 'violent hooligans' by merging together elements of clothing, ways of acting and so forth.

Even that was true, words are not bound by the will of their creators, and it's pretty damn obvious that I was using the word in a neutral context.

That's what pisses me off about these stupid arguments about words - they tend to completely ignore the context in which they are used. When some media talking (dick)head goes on a little rant about chavs, it's obvious the problem is lies not in their choice of words, but in the sentiment behind them.

[Angry Young Man]

Do I drink PBR? = No, only alcoholic cider.

Isn't all cider alcoholic? And isn't non-alcoholic cider apple juice?

And for curiosity, what cider do you drink?

[Niccolò Rossi]

Jimmie, the OP left me scratching my head. Since when did hipsters become yuppies?

Explosive Situation and cmoney are right here. I think Explosive Situation is particularly on the money regarding hipsterdom as the expression of a nihilism amongst todays youth. Hipsterdom unlike youth subcultures of the past contains within itself no positive critique of the status quo. Hipsterdom creates nothing new, it merely recycles, vintage ciche and all that jazz. A drunken discussion me and my friends had on this and the relation of hipsterdom to post-modernity a couple weeks back actually sounds pretty similar to what Explosive Situation has had, haha.

Regarding the sociology of hipsterdom, I can't recommend the essay by Mark Grief published in the New York Times last year, 'The Hipster in the Mirror':
Once you take the Bourdieuian view, you can see how hipster neighborhoods are crossroads where young people from different origins, all crammed together, jockey for social gain. One hipster subgroup’s strategy is to disparage others as “liberal arts college grads with too much time on their hands”; the attack is leveled at the children of the upper middle class who move to cities after college with hopes of working in the “creative professions.” These hipsters are instantly declassed, reservoired in abject internships and ignored in the urban hierarchy — but able to use college-taught skills of classification, collection and appreciation to generate a superior body of cultural “cool.”

They, in turn, may malign the “trust fund hipsters.” This challenges the philistine wealthy who, possessed of money but not the nose for culture, convert real capital into “cultural capital” (Bourdieu’s most famous coinage), acquiring subculture as if it were ready-to-wear. (Think of Paris Hilton (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/paris_hilton/index.html?inline=nyt-per) in her trucker hat.)

Both groups, meanwhile, look down on the couch-*surfing, old-clothes-wearing hipsters who seem most authentic but are also often the most socially precarious — the lower-middle-class young, moving up through style, but with no backstop of parental culture or family capital. They are the bartenders and boutique clerks who wait on their well-to-do peers and wealthy tourists. Only on the basis of their cool clothes can they be “superior”: hipster knowledge compensates for economic immobility.

I think this is pretty accurate. I can definitely identify folks in my own life from each of these categories.

Also, I like this alot: "wait tables and spend what little they make on tattoos and drugs" - Explosive Situation

For the record, and I always feel the need to say this, but I like alot of the 'hipster' aesthetic. I don't understand all the hate from revlefters. My guess is that alot of the hipster hate is just coming from nerds with in camo cargos and docs (sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here)

Nic.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Jimmie, the OP left me scratching my head. Since when did hipsters become yuppies?I don't think the majority of them are in that class position, but many are fiercely petty-bourgeois in political outlook ("precious" artisan craft over mass produced art, shop-local and food and bike politics, and generally individualistic values). As far as yuppies go, it's more like yuppies became hipsters (not all hipsters, just a section of them) rather than indie rock and punk rock subcultures becoming yuppie "hipsterism".

But I'm not arguing (and I did not create) this conflation of hipster and yuppie, it's sort of a common idea here. In the US hipsters are commonly connected to gentrification, class elitism, and trust-funds. It's an over-generalization at best and most of the time is just scapegoating - average hipsters do not create zoning laws, make deals with cities and real estate developers or give tax incentives for trendy stores and do not cause the police to patrol the poor residents of depressed working class neighborhoods that they move into. They are no more the cause of gentrification and hardships for the working poor than "gayborhoods" which are also scapegoated for causing gentrification.

So while the vast majority of hipsters are probably working class or professionals in background and only a few are really wealthy, it's the "trust-funders" who have been at the aesthetic and cultural front of the subculture and have caused some of the popular conflation of hipster and yupppie. Dov Charney of American Apparal, botique shop owners, the Etsy people etc, have shaped much of what has been "hipster" culture. Hippies like the Diggers may also have individually had trust-funds or independent money of some kind, but in outlook they were interested in actually developing sort of anarchist "preconfigurative" institutions like free stores and crash pads etc. Hipsterism, however has a very demoralized outlook and can't see beyond doing a sort of kitsch version of mainstream culture - it's less counter-culture and more boutique alterna-culture.

It's unfair to blame the majority of hipsters for this, most just want to dress well and their hipsterism comes from a dissatisfaction with the general culture. But IMO it's less pointed than Punk and less independent that the 1960s counter-culture.

But anyway, my question was basically about how the economic crisis may have shaken up youth culture over the last few years. One of the most defining threads of US hipster culture has been sort of a parody of working-class stereotypes... PBR, trucker-hats, Mustaches, old-timey tattoos, sort of a hobo-aestetic for some. So I was just curious if people had anecdotal evidence in some kind of a shift among young people or confusion or concern within "hipster" circles. I read an article which suggested that the actual "trust-funders" and the more specialized professionals are now less able and interested in starting a blog or opening a gallery than trying to secure more stable "regular" professional jobs while the majority of hipsters who once may have had illusions about classlessness (this was the argument in the article, not mine) are now realizing that their joe-job is not just something to do so they can have a flexible schedule and party or a day job while they start their boutique business or niche artistic craft, but is their only real option.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

For the record, and I always feel the need to say this, but I like alot of the 'hipster' aesthetic. I don't understand all the hate from revlefters.

I don't hate "hipsters" - I just don't find the kind of fashion that appears to be popular among them to be remotely appealing.


My guess is that alot of the hipster hate is just coming from nerds with in camo cargos and docs (sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings here)

I wear Grafters boots and proper combats, so no offence taken. :p

[Libertador]

Isn't all cider alcoholic? And isn't non-alcoholic cider apple juice?

And for curiosity, what cider do you drink? In North America we make a distinction between cider (what you in the rest of the Anglosphere would consider apple juice) and hard cider (alcoholic cider). Apple juice for us is the processed apple-flavored corn syrup shit juice that you see children drinking out of cardboard boxes while cider is purely squeezed juice from an apple without any additives.

As far as what I like to drink, I'm partial to Strongbow and Woodchuck. In Autumn there are some farmers who run a co-op that sell* unpasteurized hard apple cider which is where I get my very favorite stuff.

*As it is a co-op I technically own a share of the apples being squeezed and fermented (I pay about twenty dollars for twenty-four liters of cider). Doing this is a sneaky way to get around laws requiring pasteurization for selling food products. I'm just getting what I already own.

[Angry Young Man]

Strongbow? Jesus, boy! (you are a boy, aren't you) That stuff is factory-made chav juice and it's imported from England in huge quantities, meaning you're killing the planet, you fascist.

Come to Bristol with loads of money and I'll take you on a cider tour of the West Country. I would say we could go to Herefordshire, from where all the best cider comes, but it's fucking boring there and they all end up in Bristol anyway

[Quail]

Strongbow is what I imagine piss to taste like in a can.

[bcbm]

Strongbow is what I imagine piss to taste like in a can.

nah over in the states we have a whole range of (very cheap) beers that fill that market

[Libertador]

Strongbow? Jesus, boy! (you are a boy, aren't you) That stuff is factory-made chav juice and it's imported from England in huge quantities, meaning you're killing the planet, you fascist.

Come to Bristol with loads of money and I'll take you on a cider tour of the West Country. I would say we could go to Herefordshire, from where all the best cider comes, but it's ****g boring there and they all end up in Bristol anywayBut I don't want to be a Fascist! :crying:
I wasn't aware of it apparently being piss juice. My choices are pretty much limited to the ultra-fresh unpasteurized stuff (amazing!) and Strongbow and Woodchuck. A cider tour/pub crawl would be amazing.


Strongbow is what I imagine **** to taste like in a can.
This VVV

nah over in the states we have a whole range of (very cheap) beers that fill that market

[Angry Young Man]

In fairness, eco-fascist is a term I use to describe people with no concern for the environment, which includes some people on here. But climate change sceptics are normally a bit right-wing. Even old dears talk of 'doing their bit for the environment,' although all the old dears I know are way ahead of their generation.

But Tatty Bear's (I'm sure Quail is The Anarchist Tension) right: Strongbows is unadulterated child's piss. Do your research and you'll see South West England is the biggest producer and consumer of cider. Hereford seems to do all the good stuff, but Somerset and Wilts also do good stuff.

[Angry Young Man]

OMG: you should all descend on Bristol, I'll tell the local Socialist Party (but not the local SWP :P) and we'll have a Big Lefty Cider Fest followed by a very drunken revolution.

[Quail]

What the hell, I'm not a TAT sock!

[Angry Young Man]

You're in Sheffield and you're an anarchist. Sheffield's a socialist town where they make steel, not new-age jewellery

[Lenina Rosenweg]

You're in Sheffield and you're an anarchist. Sheffield's a socialist town where they make steel, not new-age jewellery

Quail is female and is the ex of a banned user,as I understand.TAT is a gay man and a film maker.

But yeah, a pub crawl would be cool, if and when I can get to the UK, perhaps for a CWI event. That will have to wait at least six months though.

[Il Medico]

Quail, Wolfie and TAT all know each other I believe, but Quail isn't TAT.

Also, I always got the impression Sheffield was famous so to speak for having anarchist. So I don't see how being an anarchist from Sheffield would really lead to the conclusion of sockdom.

[Il Medico]

Plus, Quail would have to be like 3000Xs more obnoxious to be TAT.

[Quail]

Yes, I do know TAT in person, but we are separate people. :lol:

There are quite a few anarchists in Sheffield, so my tendency and location don't really give that much away.

[Magón]

Yes, I do know TAT in person, but we are separate people. :lol:

There are quite a few anarchists in Sheffield, so my tendency and location don't really give that much away.

You think TAT is another person, but the reality of it is, he's just another one of your Sheffield multi-personalities. :lol:

[Angry Young Man]

Also, I always got the impression Sheffield was famous so to speak for having anarchist.

Like I said. It makes steel, not dreamcatchers.

[Angry Young Man]

Also, do you know Komsan? He's an anarchist in Sheffield (from London, of course :P)

[Quail]

Yeah, I know everyone in Sheffield AF :p He's leaving this weekend though.

[black magick hustla]

quail is real and a woman

[Patchd]

nah over in the states we have a whole range of (very cheap) beers that fill that market
I heard Americans couldn't brew beer for shit and it comes in small cans. Plus our cider is your 'hard cider' ... what's that about??

[Lord Testicles]

Y9cTXl5ApEk

[Thirsty Crow]

I know a girl who's pretentious as hell, and an elitist of the worst variety when it comes to intellectual achievement.
She listens mostly to indie, loves one of those crappy pop sounding bands with "Electric Girl" song or something like that (can't remember at the moment and don't care enough to google it), but also to stuff like Lady Gaga and even some metal.
I can't identify whether she has a particular style in clothing, and she didn't refer to herself as a hipster.
She's relatively well off, but not rich. Politically nihilist to the core.
She also thinks that women shouldn't do certain things, like drinking beer from the bottle, since it reflects on them in a negative way.

Is she a hipster?

[bcbm]

I heard Americans couldn't brew beer for shit and it comes in small cans.

we make a lot of shitty beers but there are also tons of good micro and craft breweries


Plus our cider is your 'hard cider' ... what's that about??

we also have cider without alcohol, and we don't have awesome ciders like 'white lightning'

[Os Cangaceiros]

Beer snobs really are the worst kind of snob.

[Angry Young Man]

We have cider without alcohol here too. We call it apple juice.

It wasn't as good, so we decided to ferment it

[Quail]

We have cider without alcohol here too. We call it apple juice.

It wasn't as good, so we decided to ferment it
Ahh if only I could rep you for this.

I fermented some apple and mango juice recently. It's fucking amazing.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Apple juice and apple cider refer to two different things in the US.

[Lyev]

OMG: you should all descend on Bristol, I'll tell the local Socialist Party (but not the local SWP :P) and we'll have a Big Lefty Cider Fest followed by a very drunken revolution.:lol: If I know the Bristol folks at all, this would be pretty raucous probably

[Tim Finnegan]

Beer snobs really are the worst kind of snob.
You've never met a whisky snob, have you? :bored:


Strongbow is what I imagine piss to taste like in a can.
A heinous slight on piss! :scared:

[Quail]

A heinous slight on piss! :scared:
True, true. People should drink more real cider.

[soyonstout]

It's not online for free that I can find, but Jean Malaquis (translator of Norman Mailer, ex-member of ICC predecessor Internationalisme and author of "Planete Sans Visa") wrote an excellent piece in 1958 about the "hipster" of that period and the romanticization of a subcultural opposition (rather than an oppositional class) in the modern world, basically trashing the literatti's obsession with beatniks as having any kind of socially transformative potential (and abandoning the working class for this). It appeared in Dissent magazine and you can see the beginning of it here (or the whole thing if you wanna shell out the dough): http://search.opinionarchives.com/Summary/Dissent/V5I1P73-1.htm but it also appeared in an anthology (and the 17th issue) of Communicating Vessels which was a Dauve/LeftCommunist/Surrealist-influenced book of poems and political essays from a dude on the West Coast (Anthony Leskov).

Malaquis spends most of the essay trashing the idea that bohemianism is in any way revolutionary (
...the hipster is nothing but a conformist in reverese. ...he is the avant-garde of conformity.), but I think that kind of critique is somewhat unnecessary at this point in history.

It seems that the collapse of the Fordist model of mass production has led, particularly in the culture industry, to an explosion of different niche market "identities," one or more of which, especially in the metropoles of capitalism, have been adopted at least partially by everyone under a certain age. Most "hipsters" today are working class, just like most students today are working class--both partially because of the expansion of consumer credit, which itself obscures class identity and unites people in different subcultures based on consumption habits (rare music, american apparel, or bachelor's degrees in the case of students), rather than their means (or lack thereof) of procuring a livelihood.

I also wonder how much the prevalence of ideology that could be called "petit-bourgeois" amongst this group is simply a reflection of people simply adopting their bosses' ideology (since, in my experience, anyway, "hipsters" tend to work for the petit-bourgeoisie in coffee shops, restaurants, etc.). Certainly some of the least militant sections of the "blue collar" working class in big companies may share the big bourgeois ideology to different degrees (I could be wrong though), but may share less in the consumption habits of their exploiters.

hope that's not too rambling.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I also wonder how much the prevalence of ideology that could be called "petit-bourgeois" amongst this group is simply a reflection of people simply adopting their bosses' ideology (since, in my experience, anyway, "hipsters" tend to work for the petit-bourgeoisie in coffee shops, restaurants, etc.). Certainly some of the least militant sections of the "blue collar" working class in big companies may share the big bourgeois ideology to different degrees (I could be wrong though), but may share less in the consumption habits of their exploiters.

hope that's not too rambling.Not at all, it was a very interesting post. Unless there is some kind of economic barrier I think most popular "underground" (if that make sense) cultures are no doubt made up of large numbers, if not a majority, of workers.

As far as the ideology goes, I think some of it comes from lack of opportunity on the one hand but also a kind of atomized experience which leads people to identify with petty-bourgeois politics. Many hipsters probably work jobs in service (small shops like you said) or internships or, for the more specialized skill set, new and start-up tech type jobs. None of these have a lot of unionization (maybe some islands in some service positions) in fact many are defined by their non-union status like temp or internships. Without any pull towards working class strategies for fightback I think people who are then satisfied with their situation in society, instead, turn toward utopian lifestyleism or trying to figure out a niche craft which will allow them creativity and autonomy in their labor or set up some kind of "indie" or "counter-culture" capitalist alternative to "big" capitalism.

A lot of the "hipster" activities in the Bay Area of California center around trying to recreate skilled artisan crafts as an alternative to what they would consider the bland and manufactured commodities general produced by capitalism. So things like wood-block printing and all sorts of analogue art techniques which could easily and comparably done with Photoshop are all the rage which puts "hipster" culture in a wider context of contemporary petty-bourgeois obsessions with "local food" and "slow food" and "buy local" and all that. So it's a lot like IMO what you were quoting above about underground culture being just kind of an inverted microcosm of the mainstream culture. Modern "hipsters" are what an underground youth counter-culture looks like in a period of both low opportunities for workers as well as little struggle (until recently) and no apparent alternatives to the system.

[Angry Young Man]

Apple juice and apple cider refer to two different things in the US.

Yea I did some research. Apple cider's apple juice that's hot off the press, right? It sounds nice, but it doesn't get you pissed.

But yea, you should just call it massively fresh apple juice.

[bricolage]

Beer snobs really are the worst kind of snob.
I agree so much it hurts.

[Angry Young Man]

I much prefer people who go on holiday to Tadcaster and drink real ale as if they're doing forensic science than somebody who thinks I'm a waste of society because my family was below an adequate income.

Actually, no. Working-class snobs are the very worst. They scorn their own community and kiss the arses of those who scorn them.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The thing about American beer is that quite a bit of it bares a lot of Euro influence. A lot of European immigrants from central Europe and Germany immigrated to the USA and brought their brewing traditions with them...such is the case with Shiner beer, for example. So I think a lot of the distaste for the blanket term "American beer" is missplaced, unless there's some kind of secret ritual that makes European beer un-piss like. (my patriotic nationalist feathers have been ruffled)

[bricolage]

I much prefer people who go on holiday to Tadcaster and drink real ale as if they're doing forensic science than somebody who thinks I'm a waste of society because my family was below an adequate income.
I'm not talking about them, they tend to stick to themselves and don't really bother anyone.

I'm talking about the people that will come to a pub in a group and then moan all night about how there are no 'proper' drinks interspered with 'hoooowwwww can you drink that???'. I'm talking about the people that will walk round parties scorning at everyone else.

Incidentally beer snobbery tends to coincide pretty easily with regular snobbery and a disdain for the carling drinking, cap wearing feral underclass.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm not talking about them, they tend to stick to themselves and don't really bother anyone.

I'm talking about the people that will come to a pub in a group and then moan all night about how there are no 'proper' drinks interspered with 'hoooowwwww can you drink that???'. I'm talking about the people that will walk round parties scorning at everyone else.

Incidentally beer snobbery tends to coincide pretty easily with regular snobbery and a disdain for the carling drinking, cap wearing feral underclass.

I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for drinking Carling. Even Stella Artois is better than that pisswater.

[Quail]

I do moan if the only cider I can get is strongbow or something, but then I just drink something else, like vodka or rum. It's quite rare that I find myself in a pub where I can't get a decent drink though.

[Ele'ill]

There's a lot of defensiveness in here...

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for drinking Carling. Even Stella Artois is better than that pisswater.
Actually, I quite like Stella, as big largers go. I really don't know why it gets such a bad rap. :blink:

[Angry Young Man]

The women's refuge might answer that question for you

[Tim Finnegan]

The women's refuge might answer that question for you
:glare:

[Angry Young Man]

:glare:


http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=stella+wife+beater&hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=W5wNhrzeXQu2zM:&imgrefurl=http://belgiumstuds.blogspot.com/2009/12/stella-artois-pub-finder.html&docid=rohxXsDS3MPCxM&w=209&h=213&ei=oZk4TrjVO9LG8QPTy82cAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=353&vpy=111&dur=518&hovh=170&hovw=167&tx=78&ty=74&page=1&tbnh=149&tbnw=146&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&biw=1280&bih=709

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Actually, I quite like Stella, as big largers go. I really don't know why it gets such a bad rap. :blink:

If I really need a beer and can't afford anything better, then I will happily chug down a Stella or two. But Carling - no.

[bricolage]

I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for drinking Carling. Even Stella Artois is better than that pisswater.
That's not really the point though.

[Sasha]

jbTI7eWaQbk

[Niccolò Rossi]

^ The fuck did I just watch?