Stalinism and National Socialism

[LevDavidovichBronstein]

My last thread got deleted for having a title that would attract trolls, so I'm remaking this with a more responsible title :P

My question is what are the similarities, if any, between Stalinism and National Socialism? I have had various opinions given to me already by Trotskyists, Stalinists, Maoists, Marxist-Leninists, and various other groups of people.

I am asking this as I am doing an essay with part of it based around the subject.

I am hoping for mixed responses and looking for around 10 separate opinions on this, with reasons and possibly evidence to support them :)

Thanks RevLefters ;)

[Rusty Shackleford]

'Stalinism' as a period during the Soviet Unions existence?
i guess a similarity would be that there was a state. a standing army. and single party control.

'Stalinism' as a theory?
its a political 'theory'

[RichardAWilson]

Stalin claimed to be a Socialist and the Nazi-Party claimed to be Socialistic.

Recall: Hitler didn't campaign against Socialists, he campaigned against Communism and thought the Social-Democrats were closeted Communists.

Otherwise, they had little, if anything, in common.

[The Man]

Hitler believed that the Bolsheviks stole the word "Socialism" from ancient Aryan empires. As shown in this interview from 1923:


"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?"
"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.
"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.

So there. National Socialism and Marxism-Leninism use the same word, with complete opposite meanings. They are two different ideologies with no relation.

[RichardAWilson]

Hitler was right about that one: Socialism was around, in varying forms, long before Marx was even conceived.

I suppose that's the reason Marx differentiated between Primitive Socialism, Utopian Socialism and (Scientific Socialism). Marx can't help that his ideas came to be popularized.

[The_Outernationalist]

I was just looking through the trash, and see this gem of a thread was trashed recently quite rightfully. Here's to hoping it returns there!

[The_Outernationalist]

Tee hee we're supposed to take him seriously, and not take into account what his name means hee hee how hilarious

[Rusty Shackleford]

Stalin claimed to be a Socialist and the Nazi-Party claimed to be Socialistic.

Recall: Hitler didn't campaign against Socialists, he campaigned against Communism and thought the Social-Democrats were closeted Communists.

Otherwise, they had little, if anything, in common.
no, the Social Democrats were not closeted communists. They equally campaigned against the communists and the nazis in the interests of liberal capitalism.
"Gegen Hitler, Gegen Kaiser, Gegen Thaellman"


Tee hee we're supposed to take him seriously, and not take into account what his name means hee hee how hilarious
Yes, his name is trotskys name. har har. Even a trotskyist wouldnt call Stalin a Nazi or the soviet union national socialist.

The soviet union was a 'deformed workers' state' in the eyes of various trends of trotskyism during the leadership of stalin, and became 'revisionist' in the eyes of marxist-leninists with the ascension of Krushchev to leadership.

the two tendencies recognize the class character of the soviet union and that is what makes it impossible to be labeled as 'nazi' 'fascist' or 'national socialist'

[Ocean Seal]

Stalin claimed to be a Socialist and the Nazi-Party claimed to be Socialistic.

Recall: Hitler didn't campaign against Socialists, he campaigned against Communism and thought the Social-Democrats were closeted Communists.

Otherwise, they had little, if anything, in common.
This is a common mistake that people make.

Marxism is composed of both socialism and communism. Being that we live in capitalism, from a Marxist perspective socialist=communist, as in Marxism socialism precedes communism. We are socialists in order to build for communism. National Socialism isn't socialism by any means necessary. It is a reaction to the rise of socialism. Aside from the face value use of the word socialism the Nazi's weren't socialists. Property was controlled privately, communists of all colors were massacred, industrial unions were destroyed, ultra-nationalism was encouraged, war of every variety except the class variety was sought, and minority proletarians were kept as slaves.

[Born in the USSR]

Nazism is one of the forms of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.

What is Stalinism? I must say that many of today's leftist activists do not welcome this term,considering it a stamp imposed by the liberals and anti-communists, and, therefore, unacceptable.In my view, there is nothing wrong with the term "Stalinism" , and it's anti-Stalin origin does not mean that we should completely abandon it. On the contrary, now when the bourgeois propaganda is aimed at the discrediting of the concept of "Stalinism", both from right and from left,we shall focus our attention on understanding the nature of Stalinism, which was inseparably connected with the essence of Leninism and was its logical extension, just as Leninism was a logical extension of classical Marxism. Moreover, in my view, attempts to identify Leninism and Stalinism are also not quite correct, because Stalin had developed Marxism in different conditions than Lenin,he introduced many new provisions, typical for a new historical stage - the stage of building socialism and communism, and not theoretical, but direct, rough, practical construction, with all the ups and downs and difficulties.

So Stalinism is a theory and tactics of the proletariat revolution in conditions of the world transition from a capitalist to a communist socio-economic structure.

[Apoi_Viitor]

To be honest, I can't really give you any real, substantial similarities between the two ideologies. However, there are a few books you might want to refer to, which are:

Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti
Beyond totalitarianism by Geyer and Fitzpatrick (I have this in PDF, PM me if you want it)

[Commissar Rykov]

Stalinism? Never heard of it. Do you mean the Marxist-Leninist line?

[Agent Blazkowicz]

I'm sure if you went to your local bookstore you could find plenty of books comparing Stalin(ism) and Hitler (Nazism).

[BlackMarx]

My last thread got deleted for having a title that would attract trolls, so I'm remaking this with a more responsible title :P

My question is what are the similarities, if any, between Stalinism and National Socialism? I have had various opinions given to me already by Trotskyists, Stalinists, Maoists, Marxist-Leninists, and various other groups of people.

I am asking this as I am doing an essay with part of it based around the subject.

I am hoping for mixed responses and looking for around 10 separate opinions on this, with reasons and possibly evidence to support them :)

Thanks RevLefters ;)

Fiercely autocratic and very nationalistic. Both at their peaks were anti-Semitic and very militaristic. Socially conservative. The difference would be the bourgeoisie ruling class would survive in Fascism vs Communism they would be violently repressed.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Fiercely autocratic and very nationalistic. Both at their peaks were anti-Semitic and very militaristic. Socially conservative. The difference would be the bourgeoisie ruling class would survive in Fascism vs Communism they would be violently repressed.
im not going to argue the point of social conservatism or the centralization of power to one man but i will question the bolded points.

If the soviet union was very nationalistic, then what nation was the superior one? Stalin was a Georgian living in Russia supporting all the nations that were within the USSR. Sure, most of the industry was in the west, but im guessing because that was where the infrastructure was at.

The soviet union was definitely proud of itself. I mean, having a revolution and all that and surviving a civil war and a foreign intervention...

Anti-semetic? many of the partisans were jews, many communists were jews.

Militaristic? If the soviet union was super militaristic then it wouldnt have been kicked all the way back to Moscow, Kiev(and a bit farther), and Leningrad in less than 8 months. The soviet union wast capable of a fight like that until it was forced to deal with it.

[BlackMarx]

im not going to argue the point of social conservatism or the centralization of power to one man but i will question the bolded points.

If the soviet union was very nationalistic, then what nation was the superior one? Stalin was a Georgian living in Russia supporting all the nations that were within the USSR. Sure, most of the industry was in the west, but im guessing because that was where the infrastructure was at.

The soviet union was definitely proud of itself. I mean, having a revolution and all that and surviving a civil war and a foreign intervention...

Anti-semetic? many of the partisans were jews, many communists were jews.

Militaristic? If the soviet union was super militaristic then it wouldnt have been kicked all the way back to Moscow, Kiev(and a bit farther), and Leningrad in less than 8 months. The soviet union wast capable of a fight like that until it was forced to deal with it.
Umm, you realize the USSR's legacy expands further than the Popular Front? Last time I checked, a lot of people were starved to death in Ukraine because of Holodomor. Stalin even threatened Lenin's older sister if she released the knowledge that Lenin's grandfather was a Jew. Lets also not forget Stalin was preparing to send the USSR's entire Jewish population to Siberia, on the false claim that they were capitalist undermining 'socialism' in the Soviet Union; which Stalin believed Socialism had been achieved already.

Secondly, the USSR was fiercely militaristic and under/after Stalin engaged in fierce imperialist politics against Eastern Europe, crushing indigenous movements and communist who didn't follow Moscow's line (Research Hungary 1956).

[Red_Struggle]

Even a trotskyist wouldnt call Stalin a Nazi or the soviet union national socialist.

I've been places.


Umm, you realize the USSR's legacy expands further than the Popular Front? Last time I checked, a lot of people were starved to death in Ukraine because of Holodomor. Stalin even threatened Lenin's older sister if she released the knowledge that Lenin's grandfather was a Jew. Lets also not forget Stalin was preparing to send the USSR's entire Jewish population to Siberia, on the false claim that they were capitalist undermining 'socialism' in the Soviet Union; which Stalin believed Socialism had been achieved already.


Yeah, I wouldn't use wikipedia to gain an unbiased view of the USSR. Solzhenistyn and Conquest are often utilized to provide "evidence" for this or that atrocity.

[Property Is Robbery]

Stalinism? Never heard of it. Do you mean the Marxist-Leninist line?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism

there ya go :)

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism

there ya go :)

gems from that wiki article:

he term came into prominence during the mid-1930s, when Lazar Kaganovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich), Soviet politician and associate of Stalin, reportedly declared, "Let's replace Long Live Leninism with Long Live Stalinism!"[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism#cite_note-Montefiore_2004_164-0)



^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism#cite_ref-Montefiore_2004_164_0-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism#cite_ref-Montefiore_2004_164_0-1) Montefiore, Simon Sebag (2004). Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar. Knopf. p. 164. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 1400042305 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/1400042305).


In the Cold War-era United States, Stalinism took on a decidedly more negative meaning, akin to what the New York Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times) dubbed "red fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism#cite_note-1)


^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism#cite_ref-1) Fried, Richard M. (1991). Nightmare in Red: The McCarthy Era in Perspective. Oxford University Press. p. 50. ISBN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0195043618 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0195043618).

[Savage]

Anti-semetic?

What's your take on the Doctors' plot?

[Kamil]

Insofar as the socially conservative stuff......abortion and homosexuality wer considered the evils of capitalist society that would disappear in socialism and communism. The bolshevik revolution just DECRIMINALIZED them, indicating that it was disaproved of but would be left to personal choice. Stalins decision to ban them again were most likely rooted in half baked pragmatism: thinking that it would increase the population when it was needed, as a product of his times he was unable to grasp that these are actually two dynamic causes of the proletariat. And since he believed they would not exist in communism he probably thought that banning them would be a move forward in building socialism in the superstructure. Ismail pointed out to me that Trotsky in his "The Revolution Betrayed" made no gripe about the ban on homosexuality. But as this is a science, and not a dogma, we learn and move on.