IDK if i can support reverse racism..

[StoneFrog]

It seems reverse racism is widely accepted here on revleft, i just don't see it as a legitimate tactic. It feels to me to be built off white peoples guilt of discrimination towards other ethnic groups. As a communist i don't see it as a valid tactic to adopt, since it fractures the working class, and ignore that racism stems from bourgeois wanting cheap labour; using the race to divide the working class.

Plus it does push the working class white people towards the right, into the hands of fascists which call for "defense of the white race". We shouldn't be providing them with fuel for their idiotic principles.

I do support things to help with the inequality that has been created, by supporting things like autonomy for First Nations in Canada, and other settler states. But i draw the line at slander towards people because they're white.

It deters me from any group which condones reverse racism, am i less of a leftist for not supporting hatred towards a race?

[thefinalmarch]

First off, there is no such thing as "reverse racism". Racism is racism all the same - but it is impotent without power (e.g. actual anti-white racism [though rarer - yet equally intolerable - it may be] is a far less danger to society and the working class than anti-black/Hispanic/Asian racism as employed by a few white individuals in command of the state).

Secondly, where can I actually find evidence of this widespread "reverse racism" here on revleft? As far as I'm aware, nearly every revolutionary communist rejects the idea that we can use white guilt as a tactic to combat racism or to make "reparations" of some sort.

[Queercommie Girl]

Secondly, where can I actually find evidence of this widespread "reverse racism" here on revleft?


This.

[Sun at Eight]

It's important to distinguish between White as the concept that only came into being as a colonial division and the various light-skinned people inhabiting Europe or light-skinned people descended from people who inhabited Europe. Also, some people detest this, since the term "racism" is purposely kept as a sort of vague individual bad feeling between people "of different races", but the formula of "racism = power + prejudice" is a good one to remember. Thus, "reverse racism" is a very problematic term. White people will basically never have systemic oppression for being White (for example, white supremacy lingers, perhaps energized by the market reforms and opening, in China where a person, particularly a man, who is seen as White can quite easily get a job, such as the infamous pretend company employee) However, it is true that people seen as White can find that they are sensitive and can't take a joke and can forget their privilege of living in a White Supremacist system because instead of seeing Whiteness as the social set-up that is, they see it as intrinsic.

Most of the jokes can be pretty silly, especially from White leftists who may be trying too hard. The problem with "White people" is not that they don't have any rhythm or are dorky or cheesy or whatever other ironically self-congratulatory things get tossed up (for example, nerdiness is hugely Whitened...and masculinized). It is that they (in these 400-500 years of Whiteness) have been on the top of a colonizer/colonized relationship that also created its other subjugated groups.

The working class disunity caused by Whiteness and its psychological and material "wages" (as Du Bois put it) have been a profound problem in organizing in North America. We cannot avoid it simply because of the idea of it "[pushing] working class white people towards the right, into the hands of fascists". This doesn't mean it will be solved before The Revolution, but it is part of a process.

However, it would be good to have discussion of how posters or their organizations have dealt with the issue of White Supremacy and Privilege, since the practical steps are often unclear.

[Le Libérer]

Could you give examples of this wide spread reverse racism on revleft?

[Sun at Eight]

I don't think it's widespread at all, but this is probably coming out of the dreadlocks thread, which as the comedian Hari Kondabolu says, "You can take it, white people. We'll be okay".
aHlvvP8r4OY

[bricolage]

A victory for trolling once more!

[Queercommie Girl]

for example, white supremacy lingers, perhaps energized by the market reforms and opening, in China where a person, particularly a man, who is seen as White can quite easily get a job, such as the infamous pretend company employee


This is a product of capitalist revisionism in China. This kind of things were not present during the Maoist era at all.



for example, nerdiness is hugely Whitened...and masculinized
Nerdy macho-ness is the type of macho-ness that I have the least problems with.

I find explicit macho-ness, like rude, violent, explicitly sexist/homophobic/transphobic macho-ness, macho-ness that beats people up simply for disagreeing with oneself etc, macho-ness that likes to flex its muscles every opportunity it has, to be much much more problematic.

Compared with that, "nerdy-ness" is fucking progressive.

Besides, these days nerdy-ness is no longer just associated with whites, but to some extent with East Asians and Indians/South Asians too.



It is that they (in these 400-500 years of Whiteness) have been on the top of a colonizer/colonized relationship that also created its other subjugated groups.
In the Chinese context the semi-colonial era was between the years of 1840 and 1949. (And you could argue that right now it's making a bit of a come-back to some extent) Of course, other non-Europeans, like Africans and Native Americans, suffered under European colonialism for much longer.

To quote from the Marxist history text A People's History of the World:

Chapter 9: The Conquest of the East

The splendours of the Orient still had an allure for West Europeans in 1776, when Adam Smith published his Wealth of Nations. Textiles, porcelain and tea from India and China were sought after in the West, and intellectuals like Voltaire treated the civilisations of the East as at least on a par with those of Britain, France and Germany. Adam Smith called China "one of the richest...best cultivated, most industrious...nations of the world...Though it may stand still, it does not go backwards". A century later the picture was very different. The racist stereotypes applied to the indigenous peoples of Africa and North America were now used for those of India, China and the Middle East. In the intervening period Britain had seized virtually the whole of India as a colony and humiliated China in two wars, France had conquered Algeria, and Russia and Austria-Hungary had torn chunks off the Ottoman Empire. The development of capitalism which had turned the societies of Western Europe and the United States upside down now allowed the rulers of those societies to grab control of the rest of the world.

:crying:

[Queercommie Girl]

Racism is, has always been, and will always be, based on geopolitical power.

[Le Libérer]

About reverse racism and discussion it, It is a tough issue because, people are sensitive about it (maybe thats why you feel slandered as a white person). Talking about race as a social construct in regard to history, is completely different, because we move from pointing fingers at individual people to analyzing systems.

This may mean looking at individuals, but we will be failing if we don’t look at the system and how power is distributed. This is what we do here. This is what we are suppose to do as Communists.

[StoneFrog]

Trivializing proletariat oppression on the grounds they are white, is something i have seen a few times on the left and anti-racism. As a communist thats not something i can support, and can only do harm to the movement.

"After thinking about it, I had to say there wasn't. For that reason, I have to believe that anybody who would act seriously offended by an anti-white slur really is a closet racist. Feigning offense at something like that is, to me, a subtle way of trying to exert white supremacy by attempting to censor the language of racial-ethnic minorities."

^is such an example of Acceptance

As for the troll comment, shows that with trolling the same way as so many i have found, trolling with sexism and homophobia creates an environment where it becomes accepted. Note i don't see anti-white slurs on the same level as sexist to homophobic slander. Not even to mention the fact trolling has become out of hand here.

[Die Rote Fahne]

"reverse racism" doesn't exist.

[black magick hustla]

"reverse racism" is totally impotent. ifsomeone makes a hurtful joke about white people or whatever the worse that will happen is that you will get annoyed and angry for a day and then the next they you will go on with your life. its not like you get a magazine emptied on you by a trigger happy cop like they do with the black folk all the time

[Susurrus]

If Fascism across the world was politically impotent, would it be any less intolerable? Not to be to critical, but I would say both white and black(and yellow and brown) racism should be combated.

[Queercommie Girl]

If Fascism across the world was politically impotent, would it be any less intolerable? Not to be to critical, but I would say both white and black(and yellow and brown) racism should be combated.

There is no such thing as "yellow racism" objectively speaking. The Japanese far-right for instance are more racist towards the Chinese than anyone else. They see us like how white Nazis see the Jews.

Racial racism doesn't work in the East Asian context. There is only ethnic racism with us. East Asian nations fight amongst ourselves much more than we do with white or black peoples.

[Ocean Seal]

Actually revleft is one place where reverse racism never surfaces. You'll hear people jump on anyone who uses the words "cracker" or "redneck" or "trailer trash" as both classist and divisive. There is no reverse racism (or reverse bigotry to be more accurate) on revleft. What you will hear people say, is the idea of reverse racism occurring systematically is flawed, because minority races aren't in power to oppress whites, which is something that the arch-right often claims.

[black magick hustla]

"cracker" is an ok term to use because not all white people are cracker, its for racists and bigots. it comes from the sound of a the whip, "it cracks". redneck and trailer trash are extremely classist insults used against the rural white working class.

[Susurrus]

There is no such thing as "yellow racism" objectively speaking. The Japanese far-right for instance are more racist towards the Chinese than anyone else. They see us like how white Nazis see the Jews.

Racial racism doesn't work in the East Asian context. There is only ethnic racism with us. East Asian nations fight amongst ourselves much more than we do with white or black peoples.

"White demon" isn't racist? But I was referring to the far eastern national racism, as well as Han Chinese, Manchu, Tibetan, Mongol, Japanese, Korean, etc prejudices and stereotypes.

[Susurrus]

"cracker" is an ok term to use because not all white people are cracker, its for racists and bigots. it comes from the sound of a the whip, "it cracks".

Actually cracker does not refer to the sound of the whip(urban myth), it dates back to an Elizabethan English slang term for a braggart(also the origin of to "crack" a joke)(an example of the term from Shakespeare's King John: "What cracker is this same that deafs our ears with this abundance of superfluous breath?") , which came to be a pejorative term for poor white English and Scotch-Irish settlers(NOT slave-owners), used by the upper-class planters.

[Leftsolidarity]

There is no such thing as reverse racism. It is just racism. While I draw almost all my influence and motivation from things like the Black Panthers and stuff like that there is a line. That line is when you are only judging someone based on the darkness (or lack there of) of their skin. Not every white is a capitalist. Not every black is a proletariat. There are many with light skin that are oppressed also and to bring it to the point where the blame for capitalist crimes falls on them just because of their skin is when it has gone too far. For people saying that race is a societal construct some sure are judging a lot of people by just the color of their skin with nothing other than that. The idea of not liking light skined people just because they were born with light skin is ridiculous at best and has no place with people supposedly struggling for the freedom of all.

[Principia Ethica]

As a person who identifies as being "black". . .I just want some clarification because if I'm not understanding the terms used here, I really can't come to any sort of conclusion. Are the terms racism, bigotry, and prejudice all being used interchangeably or are they separate and distinct.

I can half way buy the "blacks can't be racist because they do not hold geopolitical power etc" argument to an extent. But what about black people being bigoted and prejudice?

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to understand this discussion.

[Thirsty Crow]

As a person who identifies as being "black". . .I just want some clarification because if I'm not understanding the terms used here, I really can't come to any sort of conclusion. Are the terms racism, bigotry, and prejudice all being used interchangeably or are they separate and distinct.

I can half way buy the "blacks can't be racist because they do not hold geopolitical power etc" argument to an extent. But what about black people being bigoted and prejudice?

I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to understand this discussion.
In fact, you bring up a valid point with regard to terms and their connection to social processes and phenomena.
In this sense, I think that it's perfectly acceptable to say that any human being, regardless of skin tone, can be bigoted and prejudiced. But racism, as an overarching term, designates intersubjective, i.e. social and structural phenomena, not only personal opinions. That's the main difference, and that's why accusations of "reverse racism" almost always imply a non-recognition, out of ignorance or real bigotry and prejudice, systemic prejudice and discrimination directed at a specific group of people by specific, nowadays more diffuse, means.

[bricolage]

yeah I think racism only makes sense as a structural concept and treating it as something else abstracts it from these material circumstances and leads us down a path of multiple yet equal discourses, a caricatured form of post-structuralism. individual acts of bigotry however can exist in all kinds of terms and on different levels, for example in my opinion acts of bigotry towards Jews still exist to a very large degree and often very violently, yet anti-semitism is no longer the structural issue it was in earlier epochs. I'm not sure about 'discrimination', it seems discrimination is more of an act than racism (which is a way of thinking and so forth) so I suppose there'd be structural (and institutional) discrimination and lower level individualised cases of it. that being said to discriminate against someone (ie. to treat them differently based upon prejudices) requires some, albeit often very low, level of power or authority otherwise you would not be in the position for this discrimination to mean anything in practice. with that in mind it would probably more often than not be an institutional or structural phenomenon.

I've no idea how these 'definitions' sit with other people and I've only really just thought them out but I *think* that's how I'd generally see things.

[Queercommie Girl]

"White demon" isn't racist? But I was referring to the far eastern national racism, as well as Han Chinese, Manchu, Tibetan, Mongol, Japanese, Korean, etc prejudices and stereotypes.

That appears to be a Japanese term, AFAIK. In China, we have a term called "foreign devils" (yang guizi), but there is no racial element in it. In fact, Chinese people sometimes refer to the Japanese as "Japanese devils" (Riben guizi) It's more xenophobic than racist, basically it can be applied to anyone who is not Chinese, or even Han Chinese in some cases.

But you are right in that national/ethnic racism/prejudices are very significant in East Asia. East Asia, despite common cultural and historical origins, is a much more divided region of the world compared with Europe.

Even within China, ethnic nationalism is on the rise in recent years. On the Chinese language Internet there are a "Han forum", a "Manchu forum" and a "Mongol forum". Much of the energy on these forums focus on historical events from a few thousand to a few hundred years ago. Reading threads there you would think you still live in the era of Genghis Khan. Very few deal with contemporary affairs. Sometimes East Asians have a tendency to get stuck in the past. History is a very major concern in East Asian culture in general.

Interestingly, technically it would make much more sense for Asians like Chinese and Vietnamese to call white people "white devils" rather than the Japanese, for the Chinese, Koreans and Vietnamese etc actually suffered directly under Western imperialism (e.g. Opium War, Korean War, Vietnam War etc), whereas Japan never did.

[Manic Impressive]

Whiteness theory is a reaction to a racist society. Which is exactly why I don't support it, it's a reaction not materialism. It's rhetoric is intentionally provocative and this makes it counter productive and alienates the working class.