Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions with respect to LGBT issues

[Queercommie Girl]

A question: It seems that many people have the view that Abrahamic religions, like Judaism, Islam and Christianity, are generally more queerphobic (homophobic and transphobic) than non-Abrahamic religions, like Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism. Do you think this is actually the case empirically and theologically speaking, either intrinsically or at least to a significant extent statistically? Or is this an example of a kind of stereotype people have regarding Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions? If there is some truth to this observation, then what do you think is the reason for this difference in view with respect to LGBT issues?

Note that I am generally speaking an anti-cultural essentialist, so I'm not explicitly stating that this observation is actually true at all. I think it might indeed be a stereotype. However, I don't tend to simply deny empirical reality either, which is why I'm raising this issue here for discussion.

Note also that the very way in which this issue is addressed could actually be problematic to some extent, since one could argue that it is difficult to simply divide "Abrahamic religions" from "non-Abrahamic religions" in such a binary way. Sometimes for instance on many issues 2 different Abrahamic religions could indeed be more different from each other than either of them is to a non-Abrahamic religion, and the same goes for non-Abrahamic religions.

[DarkPast]

Well the only non-Abrahamic religion I've got to know better is Buddhism and I can confirm that, yes, it is definitely less queerphobic - at according to my experience.

According to Buddhist ethics, one should resist craving sexual pleasure. Some Buddhists interpret that "refraining from committing sexual misconduct" also applies to homosexuality, but I think that's a very subjective interpretation. On the other hand, Buddhism generally does not define what is right and what is wrong in absolute terms for lay followers (this is one of the reasons it's the only major religion I can appreciate).

I've also had plenty of contact with Catholics, and I can tell you they're generally very, very queerphobic. My country is predominantly Catholic and many people (even non-Catholics) are openly hostile to homosexuals - in fact our word for "gay" is an insult commonly directed at males (interestingly being lesbian is somewhat more acceptable). This attitude has mellowed out - to an extent! - in the last decade or so.

[ComradeMan]

Hinduism:

It's difficult to approach Hinduism as one subject because of the various schools and teachings etc, however in modern Hinduism it seems the majority of swamis oppose same.sex unions/marriage.

Despite the recent moves by the Indian Government in recognising the "third gender/sex" of the hijras, they still face a society in which they are marginalised, discriminated against and often face violence.

Jainism:

Does not accept or approve of homosexuality yet Jains being Jains would not persecute anyone.

Zoroastrianism:

"The man that lies with mankind as man lies with womankind, or as woman lies with mankind, is a man that is a Daeva [demon]; this man is a worshipper of the Daevas, a male paramour of the Daevas"- Videvdat

Taoism:

Taoism seems to disapprove of homosexuality on a kind of "energy" level because of the issues of male and female energy.

It seems that the Taoic religions, although not condemning homosexuality, regard it as an obstacle to fulfillment.

See: Wawrytko, Sandra (1993). Homosexuality and Chinese and Japanese Religions in "Homosexuality and World Religions", edited by Arlene Swidler. Trinity Press International, 1993.

Buddhism:

Early Buddhist texts, which generally speak of purity and abstinence from any kind of sexual pleasure (hetero/homo) are quite disapproving. In the Pali canon "pandaka" are regarded as being "defiled" by passions and lust. There is also a difference between what is acceptable for a layperson, albeit not openly condoned and what is acceptablt for a monk or nun.

Kagyu- Disapproves of homosexuality.
Tibetan- Disapproves of homosexuality.
Theravada- Sees homosexuality as a karmic condition caused by "hetero" sexual misconduct in a past life.
Japanese Buddhism- Ambiguous position- condemnation in theory, such as that of the Tendai Genshim but apparently widespread practice in the past. Nevertheless LGBT history in Japan needs to be considered separately and within the wider hisoty and culture of Japan.
Chinese Buddhism- tolerant.

From what I have read it seems that in Thailand there is the hardest line taken. See: Jackson, Peter Anthony (December 1995). "Thai Buddhist accounts of male homosexuality and AIDS in the 1980s" (http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/anth.htm). The Australian Journal of Anthropology 6 (3): 140–153. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1111/j.1835-9310.1995.tb00276.x (http://dx.doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1835-9310.1995.tb00276.x). PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 12291560 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12291560).

[Queercommie Girl]

Traditional Chinese Buddhism isn't really tolerant of homosexuality either, even though it's not explicitly denounced as "evil" or actively persecuted.

You should remember that in China Buddhism was heavily influenced by Confucianism and Confucianism denounces homosexuality on the grounds that homosexuals cannot have natural children and therefore cannot carry on the family line.

To not carry on the family line is a sin in Confucianism, as Mencius said, "There are three categories of unfillial behaviour, to not have an offspring is the greatest."

It's interesting that you say Thailand is the most homophobic, since in Thailand there is a long history of tolerating "third sex" people. But of course such "tolerance" is still problematic since "third sex" people are often treated as second class citizens (even though they are not directly treated with hostility), and all transgendered people are regarded as "third sex" in Thailand, including people who do not wish to be but want to be fully regarded as members of the sex they are changing into, which is a problem as well.

Zoroastrianism objectively is closer to the Abrahamic religions, but even in the the basic texts of the Abrahamic religions (e.g. the Bible) homophobia isn't so explicit.

[Queercommie Girl]

I've also had plenty of contact with Catholics, and I can tell you they're generally very, very queerphobic. My country is predominantly Catholic and many people (even non-Catholics) are openly hostile to homosexuals - in fact our word for "gay" is an insult commonly directed at males (interestingly being lesbian is somewhat more acceptable). This attitude has mellowed out - to an extent! - in the last decade or so.


I have two close personal friends, one from Italy, the other from Ireland, both "Catholic countries", and they support LGBT rights. They were both born in Catholic families, but personally they don't really care about the religion at all. So I guess what you said here only applies to Catholics who take the religion seriously.

[Queercommie Girl]

Kagyu- Disapproves of homosexuality.
Tibetan- Disapproves of homosexuality.
Theravada- Sees homosexuality as a karmic condition caused by "hetero" sexual misconduct in a past life.
Japanese Buddhism- Ambiguous position- condemnation in theory, such as that of the Tendai Genshim but apparently widespread practice in the past. Nevertheless LGBT history in Japan needs to be considered separately and within the wider hisoty and culture of Japan.
Chinese Buddhism- tolerant.


Personally from what I know about Han Chinese and Tibetan cultures, I think you are mistaken in thinking that Han culture is more tolerant of homosexuality than Tibetan culture is. The fact is that Han culture even today isn't tolerant of homosexuality at all. I can't even tell my parents that I'm queer. Compare this with my trans-girlfriend, whose Protestant Christian family has accepted her transgendered status to a significant extent, and my Irish and Italian friends from Catholic backgrounds, who completely accept LGBT people.

Frankly I don't know where some people get the idea that Han culture is somehow more tolerant of LGBT people than Western cultures or some other cultures. I myself seem to be a very good counter-example to this assumption.

[ComradeMan]

Personally from what I know about Han Chinese and Tibetan cultures

I didn't say Han Culture, I said Chinese Buddhism based on textual evidence and doctrine.

In mainstream culture it would not be surprising to find homophobia even if the religious/spiritual/philosophical traditions differ- this was the case in the Ancient Mediterranean, especially Rome.

You also need to remember that tolerate is not synonymous with condone.

[Queercommie Girl]

I didn't say Han Culture, I said Chinese Buddhism based on textual evidence and doctrine.

In mainstream culture it would not be surprising to find homophobia even if the religious/spiritual/philosophical traditions differ- this was the case in the Ancient Mediterranean, especially Rome.

You also need to remember that tolerate is not synonymous with condone.

Actually according to Chinese Buddhist sources in the Mandarin language (rather than English), homosexuality isn't really tolerated either. It's just that Buddhists never (in principle) do anything to hurt anyone, even when they disagree with them.

Western Buddhism (in the English language) is generally more "liberal" than "native Asian Buddhism".

[DarkPast]

I have two close personal friends, one from Italy, the other from Ireland, both "Catholic countries", and they support LGBT rights. They were both born in Catholic families, but personally they don't really care about the religion at all. So I guess what you said here only applies to Catholics who take the religion seriously.

I was primarily speaking about those who take the religion seriously, yes. Of course, it doesn't apply to all of them and, like I said, the prejudice is so deeply ingrained in the society that a lot of people from non-Catholic families, or those who don't take the religion seriously, tend to be anti-LGBT.

I've given the issue some thought, and I've come to think it's possible that, as the years went by, the anti-LGBT prejudice became decoupled from religion and turned into a social norm.

Of course, I'm just speaking from personal experience here, not saying it's a general rule or something.

[Astarte]

A question: It seems that many people have the view that Abrahamic religions, like Judaism, Islam and Christianity, are generally more queerphobic (homophobic and transphobic) than non-Abrahamic religions, like Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism. Do you think this is actually the case empirically and theologically speaking, either intrinsically or at least to a significant extent statistically? Or is this an example of a kind of stereotype people have regarding Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions? If there is some truth to this observation, then what do you think is the reason for this difference in view with respect to LGBT issues?

Note that I am generally speaking an anti-cultural essentialist, so I'm not explicitly stating that this observation is actually true at all. I think it might indeed be a stereotype. However, I don't tend to simply deny empirical reality either, which is why I'm raising this issue here for discussion.

Note also that the very way in which this issue is addressed could actually be problematic to some extent, since one could argue that it is difficult to simply divide "Abrahamic religions" from "non-Abrahamic religions" in such a binary way. Sometimes for instance on many issues 2 different Abrahamic religions could indeed be more different from each other than either of them is to a non-Abrahamic religion, and the same goes for non-Abrahamic religions.

Mysticism and occult traditions, as well as the most ancient religions are usually much more open to LGBT, the problem is, official religion needs to maintain the status quo; often times LGBT is not or has not been part of the status quo of civilizations. Its not a universal problem with spirituality though; if you look at Medieval European Alchemy, the essential merging of duality was a huge part of the spiritual quest; I think the pictures below illustrating the "Rebis" demonstrates this clearly:

http://www.aionicstar.com/rebis.gif
http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/Yandrog.gif

Also, in ancient Mesopotamia, a certain priest caste of the goddess Inanna-Ishtar (kalum priests, sometimes called 'galum' or 'gala' priests) were either men who took on the persona of a female (ie adorned themselves with female dress), but also would carry swords and axes, or the opposite, women who adorned themselves as men. This tradition can also be found in ancient Rome as the priest/esses of Cybele. The basic idea behind this was that Inanna-Ishtar was the goddess of all duality, love and war, male and female. They would associate her with the marsh-lands - that is where dry land and waters meet without either gaining fundamental supremacy - the merging of essential duality.

In ancient Egypt Akhenaten seems to have either been born ambiguously gendered or had at least tried to make himself appear androgynous for religious reasons in state art, imitating the Nile God "Hapi", or the asexual "Aten" itself.

Hapi appeared as essentially male looking but with female breasts and a pregnant stomach:
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/313975/313975,1276843041,3/stock-photo-statue-of-hapi-the-river-god-of-the-nile-55447315.jpg
Akhenaten:
http://vagabonding.com/images/i032_akhenaten.jpg

Then of course there is no shortage of such occurrences in Hinduism.

[Astarte]

Also I wanted to add this very overlooked verse from the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus pretty much says its OK to be a Eunuch, overturning the Mosaic prohibition.

Matthew 19:11-19:12
11: But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12: For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvMatt.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=19&division=div1

Compare to the Mosaic prohibition in Deuteronomy 22:5:
5: The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

The passage from Deuteronomy, I suspect, was enforced since the early Hebrews were much associated with the ancient Mesopotamian (and Egyptian) religion - it was sort of a direct affront against the practices of the particular priest caste of Inanna/Ishtar/Astarte who engaged in this. Abraham did come out of the Sumero-Babylonian city state of Ur, and he did hew down the idols of his fathers - it is not surprising the early Hebrews would chose this route as a means of distancing themselves farther from the old pagan ways.

[ComradeMan]

Mysticism and occult traditions, as well as the most ancient religions are usually much more open to LGBT, the problem is, official religion needs to maintain the status quo; often times LGBT is not or has not been part of the status quo of civilizations. Its not a universal problem with spirituality though; if you look at Medieval European Alchemy, the essential merging of duality was a huge part of the spiritual quest; I think the pictures below illustrating the "Rebis" demonstrates this clearly:


I agree but be careful- ancient Germanic religion was not particularly LGBT friendly at all- the revived form of Asatru does not have a great LGBT relationship either- so much so there is a group called Heathens Against Hate.
http://www.heathensagainsthate.org/

Whatever way modern revivalists try to dress it up, the old Nordic culture was full of rather contemptuous words for LGBT males which doesn't suggest they were particulary LGBT friendly.

Here's an interesting article looking at it.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayvik.html

[Queercommie Girl]

Pretty much no ancient culture had complete acceptance of LGBT rights, the difference is only in degree. The "golden age" for LGBT people would appear to lie in the future, rather than in the past. LGBT people won't find more acceptance simply by looking backwards in history.

[DarkPast]

Bear in mind that ancient cultures may not have had the same concept of sexual orientation as we do.

For example, in Ancient Greece sexual preference towards gender was not a social identifier. Furthermore, Ancient Greek didn't even have a word that can be translated as "homosexuality". This implies that very few people cared about which gender one was erotically attracted. Instead, what mattered was whether one took an active or passive role during sex. A passive position was associated with femininity, youth and social inferiority.

[ComradeMan]

Bear in mind that ancient cultures may not have had the same concept of sexual orientation as we do.

For example, in Ancient Greece sexual preference towards gender was not a social identifier. Furthermore, Ancient Greek didn't even have a word that can be translated as "homosexuality". This implies that very few people cared about which gender one was erotically attracted. Instead, what mattered was whether one took an active or passive role during sex. A passive position was associated with femininity, youth and social inferiority.

It's strange isn't it? It seems that the Greeks and later Romans were both united in their "shock" at the alledged sexual practices of the Etruscans! :lol:

If we are to believe classical accounts, albeit with a grain of salt, then the Etruscans were very "open" indeed.

[Queercommie Girl]

For example, in Ancient Greece sexual preference towards gender was not a social identifier. Furthermore, Ancient Greek didn't even have a word that can be translated as "homosexuality". This implies that very few people cared about which gender one was erotically attracted. Instead, what mattered was whether one took an active or passive role during sex. A passive position was associated with femininity, youth and social inferiority.


But that is just as much a problem though. Sexism is just as bad as homophobia. To care about whether or not one took an active or passive role during sex can be just as bad as caring about to which gender one was erotically attracted to. And LGBT issues in the modern context are much much wider than just which sex one sleeps with.

Furthermore, in any sexual activity, if one is the more "active partner", then by definition the other one must be the more "passive partner", so to discriminate against the "passive partner" is indeed to discriminate against the entire sexual activity.

I don't think ancient Greek society, or indeed any society in which there is sexism and patriarchy (including primitive tribal ones) and the inequality of the two genders, would consider a trans-woman like me favourably.

By Marxist standards, ancient Greece and Rome were also class societies, (slavery societies) so one wouldn't expect them to be particularly tolerant towards LGBT people intrinsically.

I'm just saying that the modern LGBT movement doesn't really need to look backwards towards the past for some kind of "justification". No historical justification is required for the validity of the modern LGBT movement.

I essentially agree with the feminist idea that without sexual equality, there can be no real equality for LGBT people either.

[Queercommie Girl]

It's strange isn't it? It seems that the Greeks and later Romans were both united in their "shock" at the alledged sexual practices of the Etruscans! :lol:

If we are to believe classical accounts, albeit with a grain of salt, then the Etruscans were very "open" indeed.

What did classical sources say about the Etruscans?

Apparently the Etruscans had a lot of influence in the development of ancient Italian culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans

[DarkPast]

I'm just saying that the modern LGBT movement doesn't really need to look backwards towards the past for some kind of "justification". No historical justification is required for the validity of the modern LGBT movement.

I'm inclined to agree.

You asked for an example of a classical source on Etruscan sexuality, so here's one:


Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom. Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often, sometimes along with the men, and sometimes by themselves. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. They do not share their couches with their husbands but with the other men who happen to be present, and they propose toasts to anyone they choose. They are expert drinkers and very attractive. The Etruscans raise all the children that are born, without knowing who their fathers are. The children live the way their parents live, often attending drinking parties and having sexual relations with all the women. It is no disgrace for them to do anything in the open, or to be seen having it done to them, for they consider it a native custom. So far from thinking it disgraceful, they say when someone ask to see the master of the house, and he is making love, that he is doing so-and-so, calling the indecent action by its name.
When they are having sexual relations either with courtesans or within their family, they do as follows: after they have stopped drinking and are about to go to bed, while the lamps are still lit, servants bring in courtesans, or boys, or sometimes even their wives. And when they have enjoyed these they bring in boys, and make love to them. They sometimes make love and have intercourse while people are watching them, but most of the time they put screens woven of sticks around the beds, and throw cloths on top of them.
They are keen on making love to women, but they particularly enjoy boys and youths. The youths in Etruria are very good-looking, because they live in luxury and keep their bodies smooth. In fact all the barbarians in the West use pitch to pull out and shave off the hair on their bodies.


-Theopompus of Chios, Histories

[Queercommie Girl]

You asked for an example of a classical source on Etruscan sexuality, so here's one:

-Theopompus of Chios, Histories


Etruscans were also a class society, but the higher status of women in their cultures compared with Greco-Roman societies might explain their greater sexual openness.

[ComradeMan]

What did classical sources say about the Etruscans?

Apparently the Etruscans had a lot of influence in the development of ancient Italian culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans

Check out the "Tomb of the Bulls" and the "Tomb of the Bigas".

also

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/theopompus/index.html

DarkPast's quote (above) is from Theopompus of Chios, IVth cent. BCE: in Histories Book XLIII:

You should be cautious with this material as the Greeks and Romans were hostile towards the Etruscans so may have "sexed" up the material to back up their points about how "disgraceful" these "horny" Etruscans were. :lol:

Aristotle, amongst others, noted that homosexuality was also popular among Gaulish warriors.

[tradeunionsupporter]

I think that the Abrahamic religions are anti Homosexuality.

[Pretty Flaco]

I have a friend from Sri Lanka and she told me once that buddhism there was very intolerant of LGBTs.
I think tolerance has less to do specifically with the religions themselves, which are very open to personal interpretation, and instead based much largely on an area's culture and what is seen as socially acceptable.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Some Indigenous American religions are fairly tolerant of homosexuality. In Mexico today, in some Catholic areas where indigenous religion was synthesized with the faith of the missionaries the locals are far, far more tolerant of homosexuality than other Catholic or Christian communities.

In some respects, despite the fact that Mesoamerican religion today is seen as depraved and violent, in part due to the focus on Aztec excesses in human sacrifice, they had ideas which were more progressive than their conquerors (though this focus was always misplaced as it was only a facet of the religion, and the Christian and Islamic contemporaries were committing far worse atrocities for spiritual purposes).

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/stepping-out


Sitting in the church of San Vincente Ferrer in the dusty Mexican city of Juchitán, I watched a woman in tight jeans, a red crop top, and ornate gold earrings make her way to receive Holy Communion. It was only when she swallowed the wafer Padre Francisco placed in her mouth that I noticed her Adam's apple bobbing and knew for certain what the priest had known all along: This woman is a man.
Actually, she's a muxe (pronounced "moo-she"), the local name given to men who dress like women, or dress like men but have male lovers and hold traditionally female jobs—weaver, party planner, hairdresser. Susana Trilling, who runs a cooking school in Oaxaca city, five hours from Juchitán, first told me about the muxes in her kitchen. "On the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, especially in Juchitán, every family considers it a blessing to have one gay son," she said. "These sons do handicrafts and sell embroideries in the market with the women, while the men work in the fields, so it's a monetary boon to the family. And while daughters marry and leave home, a muxe cares for his parents in their old age."
Pre-colombian communities were quite mixed on the issue, with the Mexica being quite puritan apparently, with other nationalities and tribes taking a more tolerant role. But even the Mexica seem to have had an ambivalent relationship with it. The Mayans seem to have been fairly open to it too.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico


Precolumbian era

The majority of information on the pre-Columbian peoples comes from the reports of the Spanish conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_the_Aztec_Empire). These accounts must be taken with caution, given that the accusation of sodomy was used to justify the conquest, along with other accusations real or invented, such as human sacrifice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice), cannibalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism), or idolatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Evans-3) Given that the defenders of the natives manipulated the information to their opinion as much as those who were opposed by them, some trying to minimise the incidence of sodomy and others exaggerating the stories, it proves impossible to get an adequate picture of homosexuality in pre-Columbian Mexico. The historian Antonio de Herrera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_de_Herrera_y_Tordesillas) arrived at that conclusion as early as 1601.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Crompton-4)
Among the indigenous peoples of the Americas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas) the institution of the two-spirit people was widespread. The two-spirits, originally considered hermaphrodites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite) and called "berdache" by the Spanish conquistadors, were men who took feminine duties and behaviours. They were considered neither men nor women by their societies, but were considered like a third sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_sex) and often held spiritual functions. The conquistadors often thought of them as passive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_and_bottom_in_sex_and_BDSM#Bottom) homosexuals, and they were treated with contempt and cruelty.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Aldrich-5)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Najtunich_d80.png) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Najtunich_d80.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Najtunich_d80.png)
Homoerotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoeroticism) Mayan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization) paint in the natural cave of Naj Tunich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naj_Tunich) in Petén (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet%C3%A9n_%28department%29), Guatemala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala).


Among Mayans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization), there was a strong association between ritual and homosexual behavior. Some shamans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman) engaged in homosexual acts with their patients, and priests engaged in ritualized homosexual acts with their gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Spigal-6) According to a 17th century Franciscan friar, Juan De la Torquemada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fray_Juan_de_Torquemada), Teen-aged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenager) males were given pubescent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pubescent) boys to serve as partners until marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage), at which time the younger partner was given a pubescent boy of his own.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-7) When the Toltecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltec) arrived to conquer the region, they brought more sodomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy) and public sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_sex) of all kinds. Then when Itzá (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itz%C3%A1) conquered the area, they brought more sodomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy), more eroticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroticism) and extensive sexual ceremonies.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Spigal-6) However, the Maya, as a people with a hybrid culture, had differing views on homosexual sodomy. The Maya Chilam Balam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilam_Balam) books, for example, regularly contained sexual insults directed toward the Itzá. According to mythology contained in the book, sodomites were responsible for destroying the order of Maya society by producing illegitimate children through their anuses who were unable to run society.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Spigal-6) It is known that there were orgies among the Maya that included homosexual sex, but for sodomy you would be condemned to death in a fiery furnace.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Evans-3)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Reza-8) Mayan society considered homosexuality preferable to premarital heterosexual sex, so the nobles got sexual slaves for their children.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Evans-3)
The Zapotecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapotec_civilization) of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isthmus_of_Tehuantepec) in southeastern Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Mexico) did not develop a culture of conquest, which may explain their relaxed attitude toward masculinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Reding.2C_p._18-9) Homosexual behavior was common among males of all ages. Boys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy) began having sex with other males during puberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty) and would continue having sex with other men through their twenties. By the time they were thirty most males were married and had children, but as with the Mayans, homosexual relations continued even after marriage. In fact, it was not uncommon for a Zapotec man to leave a marriage after his children were grown and move in with another male lover.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-10) The Zapotecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapotec_peoples) developed the concept of a third gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender), which they referred to as muxe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muxe), as an intermediate between male and female who played both gender roles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role) in everyday life.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Reding.2C_p._18-9) It is important to note that “two-spirit” (and similar native terms) refer to gender, not sexual orientation. “Two-spirit” individuals may be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. To date, muxes still exist among Zapotec people and play a crucial role within the community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community).
In the Valley of Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Mexico), the Aztecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs) lived in urban centers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization) such as Texcoco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texcoco_%28altepetl%29), Tlatelolco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_%28altepetl%29), and Tenochitlan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochitlan). From there, they politically dominated most of Mesoamerica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica) and extracted a heavy tribute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribute) of raw materials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_material), finished products, slaves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave), and sacrificial victims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-11) The Aztecs exhibited a profound duality in their approach to sexual behavior. On one hand, they held public rituals which were at times very erotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroticism), but on the other, they were extremely prudish in everyday life. In their pantheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon_%28gods%29), the Aztecs worshiped a deity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity), Xochiquetzal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochiquetzal), who was the goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess) of non-procreative sexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality) and love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love), and both female and male at the same time. In her male aspect, called Xochipilli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochipilli), was worshiped as the deity of male homosexuality and male prostitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_prostitution).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Dynes.2C_Johansson.2C_Percy_and_Donaldson.2C_p._80 4-12) The mythical history of the Aztec people was divided into four "worlds", of which the previous had been "an easy, weak life, of sodomy, perversion, of the dance of the flowers and of adoration to Xochiquétzal", in which the "masculine virtues of war, management and wisdom" were forgotten.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-glbtq_M.C3.A9xico-13) It is possible that this story made reference to the Toltecs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltecs).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Evans-3) In the majority of cases, they allowed the people they conquered to maintain their own customs. Nonetheless, Aztecs placed a high premium on "manly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manliness)", "assertive" behavior, and a corresponding stigma on "submissive" behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior). When conquered people were not sacrificed on temple altars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice), the males of conquered nations were often demoted to the status of women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Reding.2C_p._17-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-glbtq_Latinoam.C3.A9rica-15) The penalties for male homosexual intercourse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_sex) were severe. Mexica law punished sodomy with the gallows, impalement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement) for the active homosexual, extraction of the entrails through the anal orifice for the passive homosexual, and death by garrote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote) for the lesbians.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Reza-8) In Tenochtitlan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan), they hanged homosexuals. In nearby Texcoco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texcoco_%28altepetl%29), the active partner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top,_bottom_and_versatile#top) was "bound to a stake, completely covered with ashes and so left to die; the entrails (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrails) of the passive agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top,_bottom_and_versatile#Bottom) were drawn out through his anus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anus), he was then covered with ashes, and wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood) being added, the pile was ignited."[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Reding.2C_p._17-14)
Some authors state that these strict laws were not used in practice and that homosexuals were relatively free. For example, they cite Spanish chronicles that speak of widespread sodomy that included children of up to 6 years or of children dressed like women to practice prostitution. The chronicles also speak of religious acts in which sodomy was practiced.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Spencer-16)
The existence of lesbianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian) is testified to by the Nahuatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl) word "patlacheh", which designates a woman who carries out masculine activities, including the penetration of other women, as revealed in the General history of the matters of New Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Codex) by Bernardino de Sahagún (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardino_de_Sahag%C3%BAn).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-glbtq_M.C3.A9xico-13)
In spite of the puritanism of the Mexica, the sexual customs of the people conquered by the Aztec Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_Empire) varied to a great extent. For example, Bernal Díaz del Castillo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_D%C3%ADaz_del_Castillo) speaks of homosexuality among the ruling classes, prostitution of young people, and cross-dressing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing) in the area of Veracruz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracruz).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-glbtq_M.C3.A9xico-13) The yauyos had prostitution houses full of men with painted faces and women's clothing.
The Toltecs, elsewhere, were extremely tolerant of homosexuality.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Mexico#cite_note-Evans-3)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology


Aztec and Mayan

In addition to being a god of maize, magic and rulers, the Mayan god Chin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_%28Mayan_god%29) is said to have introduced homoeroticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoeroticism) into the Mayan culture and subsequently became associated with same-sex love. His example inspired noble families to purchase young men as lovers for their sons, creating legal relationships akin to marriage.[114] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-113)
Xochipilli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochipilli) was the god of art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art), games, beauty, dance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance), flowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower), maize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize), and song in Aztec mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_mythology), and also the patron of homosexuals and homosexual prostitutes.[115] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-Greenberg-114) This role "suggests a complex set of associations including the role of entertainer, the love of exotic foods and perfumes, male gender variance, and same-sex eroticism".[116] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-115) The goddess Tlazoteotl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlazoteotl), known as the "Eater of Filth" or "Shit Goddess" is an underworld deity of life and death, transforming pain and suffering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_suffering) into gold. She is the metaphorical mother and protector of the "huastecs", transgendered or lesbian priestesses, along with the goddess Xochiquetzal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochiquetzal). In some manifestations she is known as "Goddess of the Anus", with links to male homosexual sex.[117] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-116)
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LGBT_themes_in_mythology&action=edit&section=21)] Native American and Inuit

See also: Two-spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit)
In the Navajo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_mythology) tradition, Ahsonnutli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsonnutli) is a transgendered (or bi-gendered) creator god, whose name translates as "Turquoise Hermaphrodite."[118] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-conner45-117)
In Inuit shamanism, the first two humans were Aakulujjuusi and Uumarnituq, both male.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] This same-sex couple desired company and decided to mate. This sexual encounter resulted in pregnancy for Uumarnituq. As he was physically not equipped to give birth, a spell was cast that changed his sex, giving him a vagina capable of passing the child. The now-female Uumarnituq was also responsible for introducing war into the world via magic, in order to curb overpopulation.[119] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-118) The goddess Sedna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedna_%28mythology%29) is an Inuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit) creator deity, with dominion of marine animals. She is depicted as gynandrous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynandrous) or hermaphoditic in some myths, and is served by two-spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit) shamans. Other myths show Sedna as a bisexual or lesbian woman, living with her female partner at the bottom of the ocean.[120] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#cite_note-119)

[Queercommie Girl]

I have a friend from Sri Lanka and she told me once that buddhism there was very intolerant of LGBTs.


As I said, modern Western Buddhism is generally speaking much more liberal than native Asian Buddhism, because modern Western Buddhism is to some extent a reconstruction of Buddhism in the Western cultural context.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

As I said, modern Western Buddhism is generally speaking much more liberal than native Asian Buddhism, because modern Western Buddhism is to some extent a reconstruction of Buddhism in the Western cultural context.

I would say too that its reconstruction is also derived more directly from Buddhist philosophy itself and less from "Folk Buddhism", which is full of all sorts of innovations (much as any religion which has lasted for thousands of years).

[Queercommie Girl]

In its reconstruction it is also derived more directly from Buddhist philosophy itself and less from "Folk Buddhism", which is full of all sorts of innovations (much as any religion which has lasted for thousands of years)

And a lot of the more unpleasant features of traditional Buddhism, like sexism, queerphobia, and support for feudalism, are removed, ending up with a version of Buddhism that is more pure and more philosophical.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

And a lot of the more unpleasant features of traditional Buddhism, like sexism, queerphobia, and support for feudalism, are removed, ending up with a version of Buddhism that is more pure and more philosophical.

This is true. However I would say that a lot of the philosophical points which are more stressed in "Western Buddhism" are the discussions which are really at the heart of the Buddha's ideas. The Buddha's discussions are mostly focused on ontological questions and a critique of metaphysical religion, and not so much on overt moralizing. I can't find anything on homosexuality in the early Buddhist texts and the early philosophers, it seems to have been something brought in to make it synthesize with local morality.

Note, I edited the post a little before you posted your message but after you hit reply, I changed the wording to make it read a little less awkwardly (the content is the same though)

[Astarte]

Pretty much no ancient culture had complete acceptance of LGBT rights, the difference is only in degree. The "golden age" for LGBT people would appear to lie in the future, rather than in the past. LGBT people won't find more acceptance simply by looking backwards in history.

It is clear that some ancient cultures were much more accepting of LGBT, especially transgenderism.

There is a book that was put out by Simo Parpola and the Helsinki University's press, which is known world wide as kind of a "hot spot" in the academics of Mesopotamian studies it is called "Assyrian Prophecies", and is a true scholarly and academic study of ancient Assyrian primary text documents (baked clay tablets), so please, no one go saying I am pulling new age shit, because this is about as "old age" (well maybe not, it is only 700-600 BC or around that) as we can get.

http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/downloads/parpola_saa9intro.pdf
(my apologies, all copies of this I could find online are not including the actual transliteration and translation of the "prophecies" which are more like short parables, astral divinations or omens having to do with animals).

In this text please go to page IL and see "2.Baya", it seems that this prophet(ess) of Ashurbanipal was a "transgender" priest(ess) of Ishtar, of such high rank that she predicted astrological omens and engaged in divination for the King himself.

I'm just saying the priest(esses) of the cult of Ishtar in ancient Mesopotamia I do not think were very marginalized, transgenderism via the worship of Ishtar definitely played a major mainstream cultural role, and it appears even a political and theological one as the tablets are showing...

[Queercommie Girl]

It is clear that some ancient cultures were much more accepting of LGBT, especially transgenderism.

There is a book that was put out by Simo Parpola and the Helsinki University's press, which is known world wide as kind of a "hot spot" in the academics of Mesopotamian studies it is called "Assyrian Prophecies", and is a true scholarly and academic study of ancient Assyrian primary text documents (baked clay tablets), so please, no one go saying I am pulling new age shit, because this is about as "old age" (well maybe not, it is only 700-600 BC or around that) as we can get.

http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/downloads/parpola_saa9intro.pdf
(my apologies, all copies of this I could find online are not including the actual transliteration and translation of the "prophecies" which are more like short parables, astral divinations or omens having to do with animals).

In this text please go to page IL and see "2.Baya", it seems that this prophet(ess) of Ashurbanipal was a "transgender" priest(ess) of Ishtar, of such high rank that she predicted astrological omens and engaged in divination for the King himself.

I'm just saying the priest(esses) of the cult of Ishtar in ancient Mesopotamia I do not think were very marginalized, transgenderism via the worship of Ishtar definitely played a major mainstream cultural role, and it appears even a political and theological one as the tablets are showing...

Thailand still has its ancient tradition of "third sex" people today.

However, by the standards of modern LGBT politics, even ancient cultures that apparently accepted transgenderism are still problematic to some extent from a modern point of view. Firstly, transgendered people always seemed to be limited to a handful of very specialist social roles (e.g. religious functions etc), you cannot find transgendered people in "normal civil society" at large doing completely ordinary jobs; Secondly, everyone who doesn't fit with the binary gender norm in patriarchal society is usually labelled as "third sex", even people who don't consider themselves to be transgendered and just cross-dresses occasionally, or those who consider themselves fully as members of the sex they wish to change into. (I.e. like modern transsexual people)

Personally, I find the modern Western secular system in which trans-women are legally fully recognised as women, but there are only 2 legal genders (men and women), to be better than the ancient system in which everyone who is transgendered is forced to consider themselves "third sex".

Of course, there are trans people who really do consider themselves as "third sex" or genderqueer (to use the more modern term), so the ideal system would include both fully transsexual people and genderqueer people, rather than only legally recognise 2 genders or force everyone into the "third sex" category.

[Queercommie Girl]

From a Marxist historical materialist perspective which rejects cultural essentialism, it would also be not so easy to explain why some ancient cultures were more tolerant of LGBT people than others, when all of them were patriarchal class societies.

Ideologically, Marxists don't usually consider any "cultural differences" between different societies apart from class, gender, and technological level. Everything else is assumed to be basically the same in all human societies.