why is the CIA legal?

[RedMarxist]

this is a legitimate question: If the CIA has the power to overthrow entire nations, and is basically a secret police, then how come it is 100% legal to use?

I mean, why do Americans seem content to just turn a blind eye to a blatantly unethical organ of state power? Why can't it be shut down?

[Ocean Seal]

this is a legitimate question: If the CIA has the power to overthrow entire nations, and is basically a secret police, then how come it is 100% legal to use?

Because the ruling class controls what's legal or not. They don't care about so-called ethics.

That's why you have people who control the means of production controlling half the wealth in this country.
That's why cops get away with murder.
That's why paramilitaries and governments get away with massacres.
That's why cossacks were able to as they pleased under the Tsar.

[RedMarxist]

true that. Really though, does anyone here have concrete reasons for why the CIA is legal apparently?

[StoneFrog]

Its not "legal" it has broken international laws etc..
Just everyone looks the other way, never going to be put on the news nor brought up in court...for the reason RedBrother said.

[Ocean Seal]

true that. Really though, does anyone here have concrete reasons for why the CIA is legal apparently?
That is the one concrete reason though.
The capitalist state acts to protect the capitalist class. And if it is the state that determines what is legal and what is not, then it will surely rule in favor of the capitalist class.

[RED DAVE]

true that. Really though, does anyone here have concrete reasons for why the CIA is legal apparently?What do you mean by "concrete reasons"?

(1) Do you want to know what the prupose of the CIA is?

(2) Do you want to know why the USA constructed such an agency in the first place?

(3) Do want to know what laws, specifically, enable the CIA's existence or what part of the US Consitution enables it?

In general, try to form your questions as specifically as possible.

RED DAVE

[RedMarxist]

I want to know why a blatantly secret police force in MY country that overthrows nations and terrorized entire groups of people is allowed to exist and why no one is punished inside the organization for committing horrific crimes against humanity.

[Susurrus]

Secrecy and propaganda. Ever hear of Frank Olson?

[Blake's Baby]

Because 'crimes against humanity' are what America's enemies do. American governments/military on the other hand kill people for their own good, overthrow their governments in the name of 'democracy' and bomb them so that they can be free. The CIA are the good guys, and therefore anything they do wrong is the other guys' fault.

[jake williams]

I want to know why a blatantly secret police force in MY country that overthrows nations and terrorized entire groups of people is allowed to exist and why no one is punished inside the organization for committing horrific crimes against humanity.
Because the US bourgeoisie accepts what it does, and no one else has the power to stop it. Why would the US ruling class stop it? How would anyone else stop it?

[RedMarxist]

if the people of America rose up tomorrow, they could stop it. But as we all know Americans, me included, are to LAAAZZYY to have an uprising so...:D

[Reznov]

this is a legitimate question: If the CIA has the power to overthrow entire nations, and is basically a secret police, then how come it is 100% legal to use?

I mean, why do Americans seem content to just turn a blind eye to a blatantly unethical organ of state power? Why can't it be shut down?

Because it is American Government? The Stasi, the KGB, the SS etc... were all horrible organizations, except for the U.S.'s CIA of course, who are protecting freedom and spreading democracy.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

because they want to have the group so that if you go bump in the night. really, there here to be a power presence

[thesadmafioso]

Why would it be illegal? It fulfills its purpose to great effect, it would be foolish of the US government to abandon such an effective tool of hegemonic domination. The American class of capitalists cares not for such petty roadblocks as 'democracy' or 'international law' and they will do what they please to secure their interests, regardless of how corrupt they may appear to the objective observer.

[scarletghoul]

The state is founded on illegality, a transgression of its own standards. This is precisely what gives it its sublime authority, the fact that it places itself 'above the law'. The state can do all the things that it outlaws: it can take property, it can kill, it can imprison people and even condemn them to slavery (the constitution uses this very word), etc. This is how the state makes itself the State.

[RedMarxist]

why won't Americans then overthrow this state? why are people so proud of it(one look no further then fourth of july), why do they turn a blind eye?

If the American people rose up today, then the government could not stop them. I guess this is why anti communist lies are fed to them-so they dont rise up.

to many people I know, friends and family, REFUSE to read Karl Marx or anyone else. They live in a fantasy world in which Stalinist Soviet Communism is the only kind of communism and The Russian Revolution was the greatest threat to democracy in history.

that and the boys at Langley who overthrew countless nations were heroes protecting us from the "horrors" of communism.


it reminds me of that book the man in the high castle, in which characters justify the Nazi oppression by saying 'well, they saved us from the RED MENACE!'

[Susurrus]

Their not even particularly proud of the state, for the most part. It's a culture of submission and apathy.

[Comrade Crow]

I see you're begining to undertsand how America really works.

Do you think the CIA is alone in the world? We are talking about the Culinary Institute of America, right?

[RedMarxist]

Yes, I have awoken only to see the true state of things in America.

America seems like some sort of-police state.

Lets see-if you oppose the state in an non-peaceful manner(IE in such a way that you are a threat, as opposed to being peaceful) you get labeled a terrorist. So, in effect your doomed if you rise up.

If you dont rise up and peacefully protest, the media congratulates you for "standing up", but nothing gets done.

So-Jesus my head is about to explode :cursing:

so, is not violence against the state the only way? I mean, to rationalize it, they[the state] use violence against you so it is OK.

So say I bombed a police station and killed 12+ cops. that would make me a terrorist BUT hold on. What if those same 12+ cops killed 30+ people in a crowd of peaceful protesters? would that still make one a terrorist?

[Comrade Crow]

Yes, I have awoken only to see the true state of things in America.

It's not just America, google "M16." America is not the only one with secret agent men.

This Machiavellian sort of underhanded state play is nothing new.


So say I bombed a police station and killed 12+ cops. that would make me a terrorist BUT hold on. What if those same 12+ cops killed 30+ people in a crowd of peaceful protesters? would that still make one a terrorist?

What do you think? Of course you would be branded as a terrorist, well, maybe not terrorist unless you're Arab/Muslim but probably atleast a madman. I know what you're getting at but you have to understand the definition for terrorism and whom is and whom isn't, is largely subjective, as your question, kind of points out. It's just the reality of the situation.

[Reznov]

Yes, I have awoken only to see the true state of things in America.

America seems like some sort of-police state.

Lets see-if you oppose the state in an non-peaceful manner(IE in such a way that you are a threat, as opposed to being peaceful) you get labeled a terrorist. So, in effect your doomed if you rise up.

If you dont rise up and peacefully protest, the media congratulates you for "standing up", but nothing gets done.

So-Jesus my head is about to explode :cursing:

so, is not violence against the state the only way? I mean, to rationalize it, they[the state] use violence against you so it is OK.

So say I bombed a police station and killed 12+ cops. that would make me a terrorist BUT hold on. What if those same 12+ cops killed 30+ people in a crowd of peaceful protesters? would that still make one a terrorist?

In theory its good to discuss, but try not to worry yourself to much over this. There isn't much you can do to actually change the system, you kill a cop he will be replaced and the system continues so to speak. Live your life, and if time comes for Revolution because people are fed up with the system then it will happen.

Obviously, Americans have a decent life right now so they aren't too fed up with the system. Will this change? I hope so, but I honestly can't be too optimistic about that actually happening.

[RedMarxist]

i understand that killing 30 people as a cop(s) makes you a "criminal" but bombing a police station full of police who helped kill these 30 people makes you a "terrorist"

and yes im not dumb I know just about every nation has a CIA of its own.

EDIT:

Exactly. Americas have too good a life to complain. If we default on the other hand... My dad, And some have asked me what his job is, well he works in insurance. Yes, he works in one of the most exploitative jobs on Earth.

I'm reading wage labor and capital right now. It explains so much about how capitalism functions. Basically, using my dads job as an example, lets say he makes, and i know this is a low number, $10 per hour of his job. Well, the insurance company must still make a profit, so my dad makes way less then the value of his labor to the company. Whereas the company merely owns the insurance, the "means of production", my dad actually sells it, so in a perfect world he should make more then the company

[Comrade Crow]

Obviously, Americans have a decent life right now so they aren't too fed up with the system. Will this change? I hope so, but I honestly can't be too optimistic about that actually happening.

Perhaps you don't live in America but Americans, in general, are not doing so well at all and the country is about to go belly up. The material conditions for revolution are there.

[Susurrus]

Wait to implement violent struggle until the time is right for the masses to rise up. That is not this time, and unfortunately such actions will work against us. For now, stick to waking other people up.

[RedMarxist]

Obama still has not solved that whole default problem, right now the democrats and republicans r fighting over how to end it, and things are not looking good in Europe.

yes, the conditions in both Europe[esp. Greece which I guess already has had a revolution or is in one] and America r ripe for revolution. If America defaults and the Eurozone falls apart then people will be rioting in the streets./

[Comrade Crow]

Wait to implement violent struggle until the time is right for the masses to rise up. That is not this time, and unfortunately such actions will work against us. For now, stick to waking other people up.

I'm a Blanqui revivalist.

[RedMarxist]

this is interesting; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14169940

and from another bbc article: " Republicans have refused to agree to the tax hikes on corporations and wealthy Americans proposed by Mr Obama"

there is your problem.

[Susurrus]

I'm a Blanqui revivalist.

pfeh.

[RED DAVE]

I want to know why a blatantly secret police force in MY country that overthrows nations and terrorized entire groups of people is allowed to exist and why no one is punished inside the organization for committing horrific crimes against humanity. Given the nature of capitalism, why would you expect anything else. This is what capitalism has been doing for about 500 years.


if the people of America rose up tomorrow, they could stop it. But as we all know Americans, me included, are to LAAAZZYY to have an uprising so...:DYoung comrade, this issue of consciousness, and false consciousness, is a complex and important one as is the issue of the individual responsibility of revolutionies. Neither of them can be dealt with using words like "lazy."

You need to kick it back with a good book on revolution like Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/download/hrr-vol3.pdf), and get ready to enjoy your future as a revolutionary.

RED DAVE

[Commissar Rykov]

I want to know why a blatantly secret police force in MY country that overthrows nations and terrorized entire groups of people is allowed to exist and why no one is punished inside the organization for committing horrific crimes against humanity.

The CIA's charter forbids it to operate in the Continental United States as it does most intelligence agencies except the FBI. Has that been violated? Yes it has thus it is a violation of law but I see nothing wrong with an Intelligence Agency. I do see a problem with one that violates its charter and oversteps its directives.

[RED DAVE]

I see nothing wrong with an Intelligence Agency.You see nothing wrong with an agency whose purpose is to overthrow governments the the American bourgeoisie doesn't care for?

RED DAVE

[Commissar Rykov]

You see nothing wrong with an agency whose purpose is to overthrow governments the the American bourgeoisie doesn't care for?

RED DAVE

Where did I say I see no problem with the CIA? I said I see no problem with an Intelligence Agency. IE: An intelligence agency would likely be needed in a socialist state to help defend it from outside bourgeois forces who have a vested economic interest in the nation that has been overthrown.:confused:

[RED DAVE]

Where did I say I see no problem with the CIA? I said I see no problem with an Intelligence Agency. IE: An intelligence agency would likely be needed in a socialist state to help defend it from outside bourgeois forces who have a vested economic interest in the nation that has been overthrown.:confused:Okay.

But let me make two points here.

(1) The socialist revolution will be global or it will not be at all. Don't think of some kind of a cold war situation where socialist state and capitalist states coexist. Ain't gonna happen that way. Any enclave of socialism will be in a war with capitalist countries very quickly. Likewise, any capitaist enclave would be surrounded and, hopefully, be overtaken by a revolution. The need for intelligence agencies will be minimal at best. With a global revolution, they hopefully will never develop into permanent organizations.

(2) Which leads me to my second point. Intelligence agencies are very dangerous to a revolution. They are, by definition, secretive with a tendency to autonomy, and operationally they are violent. The tendency for them to turn into some kind of secret police must be resisted at every turn.

RED DAVE

[Psy]

Okay.

But let me make two points here.

(1) The socialist revolution will be global or it will not be at all. Don't think of some kind of a cold war situation where socialist state and capitalist states coexist. Ain't gonna happen that way. Any enclave of socialism will be in a war with capitalist countries very quickly. Likewise, any capitaist enclave would be surrounded and, hopefully, be overtaken by a revolution. The need for intelligence agencies will be minimal at best. With a global revolution, they hopefully will never develop into permanent organizations.

(2) Which leads me to my second point. Intelligence agencies are very dangerous to a revolution. They are, by definition, secretive with a tendency to autonomy, and operationally they are violent. The tendency for them to turn into some kind of secret police must be resisted at every turn.

RED DAVE

That and that the type of intelligence that would be useful for a revolution would be better suited for reconnaissance in revolution armies.

[RadioRaheem84]

What makes the CIA and the MI6 so dangerous is that their misdeeds have been blown out of the water by Senate Hearings, investigative journalists and political historians, yet the propaganda system is so strong that films, television and the rest of the media have portrayed them as heroes and the first line of defense for the nation's safety.

CIA has been implicated in drug trafficking, destabalizing democratic governments, rigging elections, using publications as fronts for propaganda, paying journalists to spread disinformation, selling arms, training terrorists, funding assassinations, terrorist plots, etc. The list is endless.

This organization is ruthless and has a massive PR department that promotes it's good name to the American public.

At least the KGB or the Stasi didn't really have this much cache among the public due to a PR firm in their ranks.

Honestly, when comparing the work done by both the KGB and the CIA abroad, the KGB were puppy dogs by comparison.

[A Marxist Historian]

this is a legitimate question: If the CIA has the power to overthrow entire nations, and is basically a secret police, then how come it is 100% legal to use?

I mean, why do Americans seem content to just turn a blind eye to a blatantly unethical organ of state power? Why can't it be shut down?

Getting back to the original question, the reason the CIA is legal is that, as any lawyer will tell you, property is 90% of the law. And if you read the US Constitution, what practically jumps out at you is that protecting private property is the foundation stone of the Constitution.

The CIA set about protecting private property on a world scale. Primarily American of course, but in the context of the Cold War it was protecting private property vs. governments and nations with other ideas all over the world, overthrowing them if necessary.

Whether trying to overthrow socialist governments, or even nationalist governments like Mossadegh in Iraq which wanted to nationalize foreign oil companies, protecting private property is what the CIA is all about. By any means necessary, including torture, murder and assassination.

So therefore it is both constitutional and legal by American law, duly authorized by Congress under Truman.

As for the bad stuff, all deemed constitutional by the current Supreme Court's version of the Dred Scott decision, namely that humans have no rights that Americans are bound to respect. Not stated in so many words, but clearly implied by a whole body of legal decisions lately.

-M.H.-

[Psy]

Getting back to the original question, the reason the CIA is legal is that, as any lawyer will tell you, property is 90% of the law. And if you read the US Constitution, what practically jumps out at you is that protecting private property is the foundation stone of the Constitution.

Correction, protecting the property of the ruling class which is why the FBI was able to destroy the property at the Waco siege without breaking any laws and how the US government can legally take the means of production away from those that deal in illegal drugs.

[Commissar Rykov]

Correction, protecting the property of the ruling class which is why the FBI was able to destroy the property at the Waco siege without breaking any laws and how the US government can legally take the means of production away from those that deal in illegal drugs.

True, they also overthrew the government of Guatemala because the President of the United Fruit Corps was the brother of the CIA Director. Guess you should sell fruit to America or they will smash your country and put in a Yesman.

[RedMarxist]

would a revolutionary country allow this shit to happen? I doubt it.

[Zealot]

The people are kept pacified and think the system works great. Nazi Germany was a great system... for Germans, they just had to ignore the misery they brought to the rest of the world in exchange for their "freedom" which is how Americans basically live today. But it's all going to turn to shit some day.

[Psy]

would a revolutionary country allow this shit to happen? I doubt it.
Well a revolutionary state would have no need for a CIA, lets not kid ourselves we will never be able to covertly back any workers movement, all the bourgeoisie intelligence agencies will know so it is just logical for revolutionary states to just be up front about backing uprisings just to make it clear to workers around the world that the revolutionary states got their back and will provide them with arms, supplies and if possible military support.


As for not allowing the CIA supporting counter-revolution well if the revolution is strong enough the CIA simply would not be able to find any counter-revolutionary fraction that is any significant threat to the revolution.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Now who the hell is going to enforce a verdict against the single most powerful organization in the world