Is Man fundamentally selfish?

[Anti-Fascist]

Is Man fundamentally selfish? Or do people perplex "selfishness" with self-preservation? I would like to read some input on this (after which I shall fully expound my position on the matter), for it is not an infrequent attack against Communism.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

You most likely made this assertion from observing the possibility that you are instinctively selfish. I personaly don't think that people are instinctively selfish. Selfishness comes from an enviroment's impacts on a person. I may be worng, however, in which case, oppression is still not justified.

[Bradyman]

"capitalism was not created by the 'natural greed,' but made greed seem natural"

I agree with victorcommie in that people are greedy only because of the outside conditions forcing themselves to be greedy so that they can survive. If it was unnecessary to be greedy for personal advancement or survival as it is under capitalism, there would be no greed in people. That's just what i think.

[FatFreeMilk]

Isn't this thought by Thomas Hobbes?
I agree with victorcommie too though on this one. John Locke was the one who belived in this too, he's the one who thought of the certain unalienable rights as a result right?

[Iepilei]

I believe all power should be regulated, just in case. That of the government and that of the economy.

[BuyOurEverything]

I believe it but I think "altruism" can also be a form of greed. Everything we do is done to make ourselves feel better even if it is helping others and that is greedy.

[(*]

I agree with that...



I don't think that watching out for yourself is being selfish. It all depends on context though.

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 12:36 AM
You most likely made this assertion from observing the possibility that you are instinctively selfish.
You snake, I never made that observation. Read my posts again! I said that OTHERS make this observation.

[Towelly]

Maybe it all goes back to sex.As animals and biological machines we`re just here to pass on our genes.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

man is not fundamentally selfish, it is greedy capitalist society that has made man that way.

[Regicidal Insomniac]

The question of so-called "human nature" is one of the most commonly raised arguments against socialism - but it is also one of the easiest to debunk. Many people believe that the way people think has always been the same, and that we will always think the way we do now. But a few examples will show that nothing could be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is, like all things in nature, human consciousness and society are always in a state of change. Marx explained that "conditions determine consciousness". In other words, our environment determines to a large degree how we think. We know what rap music, Hollywood movies, and a Boeing 747 are because they exist in our world. For example, if we were born 5,000 years ago as peasants in China, our world-view would be very different! If we were born as royalty in China 5,000 years ago, we would also have a very different view of things than if we were peasants.

Human beings rose to the top of the food chain not by competing against each other and crushing one another in the struggle to "get ahead", but through cooperation. Only by cooperating were humans able to combine their resources to hunt, build shelters, and eventually domesticate plants, animals, develop pottery, build the pyramids, etc., etc. Just look at a human baby! Compared to a deer, which can stand up and run within minutes of birth, human young are totally helpless for years. Baby humans could not survive even a few days without the help of others! So you see, primitive humans needed to cooperate if they were to survive the elements, wild animals, find enough to eat, etc. For the vast majority of human existence, there were no classes, and we lived communally in small bands, dividing up the work and dividing up the wealth in the interests of everyone.

And although on the surface is appears that nowadays we are all "individuals", the truth is we are even more dependant on literally thousands and even millions of other humans around the world. Can any one person design a car, mine and process the metals and other materials needed, build the factory, and the put together a car themselves? To even pose the question shows how absurd the idea is. And what about the gasoline to fuel it? Or the roads to drive it on? What about the food we eat? The list goes on and on - and we have only scratched the surface. Think about it carefully, and you will see that under capitalism, almost everyone is indirectly linked to everyone else through the world market and the exchange of commodities.

We work together, live together, hang out together, go to the movies together, go to the park together, etc. Do we have police around 24 / 7 to make sure we don't all kill each other? Do we run around murdering each other "to get ahead"? If that were the case, then nothing would ever get done and we would all starve to death in a matter of days! So why do people have this strange idea that we are all "individuals"? Well, getting back to the first point we made, which is that conditions determine consciousness - the ruling class (the capitalists) do everything in their power to affect the way we think. Through our education, through the media, religion, etc., we are raised to have the values of the capitalist system. And what values are these? Precisely the "dog eat dog" attitude which states that the only way to get ahead is to stomp on your opponents. We are raised to look away and think nothing of the homeless, the starving, those killed in war, etc. - or at most to say a prayer for them and give a little "charity" to ease our conscience.

But if we look a little harder, we will see that these "values" benefit only a tiny handful of people - the ultra-rich capitalists! The rest of us, in our daily lives, gain nothing from this. What we want above all is peace, stability, a decent job, no worries about healthcare or education, time off for family and loved ones, etc. It is only the capitalist class which thrives off the individual competition between one company and another. One of the main contradictions of capitalist society is that we have social production (meaning we produce the things we use socially - like the example of the car), but private appropriation of the surplus wealth produced. In other words, we produce the wealth socially, but the profit goes into private hands! The thousands of workers who actually know how to produce the cars in a factory do not get to decide what to produce or how, or what to do with the extra wealth - the capitalist class does. Socialists want to end this contradiction by having social control over the socially produced wealth. The surplus wealth produced by working people would be used to provide better wages, benefits, healthcare, education, safety conditions, new technology that could reduce the working day, etc. - instead of for the private gain of a handful of people while millions starve, are homeless, and unemployed. This is not a utopian idea - the material pre-requisites for this exist now! The only barrier to this is the grip the capitalist class has on political and economic power. Only unity of the world working class can put an end to this situation, and end the horror, degradation, poverty, and instability of the capitalist system once and for all. Then a whole new world will open up!

So just imagine a baby born into a world with no hunger, no want, no poverty, no lack of jobs, etc. Since conditions determine consciousness, they would see the world in an entirely different way than we do today. Even babies born today do not notice differences in race, language, etc. until these are pointed out to them as they get older. Under socialism, people will relate to each other as people, and not as mere commodities to be bought and sold.

The reason for the vast bulk of the problems we suffer under capitalism is scarcity – there is simply not enough to go around. To take an example form nature, if you take 100 rats and put them in a cage with enough food for 100 rats and then a little bit more, you will have docile, friendly, and gregarious animals before you. But if you put those same 100 rats in a cage with only enough food for only 50 of them, you will quickly see the situation deteriorate into a murderous, greedy, self-interested orgy of violence and bloodshed. Of course, humans and their society are much more complex and on a different level than 100 rats in a laboratory cage, but the example illustrates an important point.

As we all know, much of the scarcity we find is artificially produced. We have all heard the stories of farmers being paid not to plant or to destroy crops, even though there are millions of hungry and malnourished children right here in the United States, let alone around the world; of shoe or clothing stores which punch or tear holes in their old stock, to make them unusable, even though millions of people could use those products; of restaurants firing employees for taking food home, insisting instead that this perfectly good food be thrown in the dumpster; or of perfectly healthy, capable, and willing people being paid not to work, or forced into unemployment when they are willing to work, instead of creating meaningful jobs for them.

"Human nature", like all things, in a constant state of change. To accept that it is set in stone for all time does not stand up to even the most simple analysis. Humans have created wonderful tragedies, comedies, songs, poems, paintings, sculptures and countless other expressions of artistic creativity which are a reflection of our changing world view at any given time. Just take a walk through an art, science, or historical museum and you will see the changing consciousness of humanity graphically portrayed. As Marx explained, "the philosophers have interpreted the world in various ways - the point however, is to change it!" Our way of thinking will change with it!

from Youth for International Socialism FAQ (http://www.newyouth.com/archives/theory/faq/human_nature.asp)

[Beccie]

Isn't this thought by Thomas Hobbes?

Hobbes did believe that humans were naturally greedy but more importantly he believed that the chief passion that drove human beings was fear. In his theoretical state of nature people were naturally equal, he thought that such equality meant people were constantly engaged in a war of all against all. There is no security in the Hobbes state of nature; people are self-interested and fearful of the interests of other people. Hobbes believes that his view of human nature justified a dictator in which the people were to alienate all their sovereignty to.

[apathy maybe]

Anarchism and communism assume that people aren't fundamentally selfish.

[Don't Change Your Name]

I came to the conclusion that people isnt necessary selfish.
Lately I have seen Ayn Rand and other neo-liberals being worshipped, and we can come to the conclusion that individualism is not bad on itself, but we must face the truth:
1 - the means of production are in the hands of few
2 - this people in charge of making decisions
3 - those decisions ruins the individuality of the workers they control
4 - those people take the profit of the proletarian
5 - they dont care about the proletarian, and they decide their faith in every decision they make
6 - competition and anti-environmentalism will make humans extinct
7 - the cappies make selfishness look like a good, normal, fundamental and politically correct thing
In fact, they only way to reach real individualism is collectivism, otherwise there wont be goods for everyone.
The only way to stop selfishness is by taking the means of productions away from the owners and deleting the private property.

I agree with what Regicidal Insomniac said.