Existentialism

[The Feral Underclass]

"Life - Do I live with it? or die of it?"

any thoughts? :ph34r:

[RyeN]

A well deservered death for everyone.

[Pete]

When you die, you percieve nothing and are thus nothing. How can you be anything if you can not name yourself nor identify yourself? Those are two aspects of being that are essential to our world view. We have the name "I" and we know that "I" fits a physical concept, and our langauge are formed around physical forces. When these 'forces' (lack of a better word) die, so do we.

I found that concept, surprisingly, in the Upanisads. I think it was in the Brankyahada Upanisad Chapter 4.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Death is what gives life meaning.

--- G.

[sc4r]

How you live is what gives life meaning.

Death does not have to be philosiphised into anything. Death is what we call it when you no longer have life. Thats the sum total of its meaning.

Since you cant do much about it I suggest you ignore it, except for perhaps avoiding it where possible.

[BuyOurEverything]

Death is what gives life meaning.

I agree. I would also venture to say that nothing can really exist except in relation to something else.

[RyeN]

Life has no meaning. With capitolist, communist, socialist, or any other way of life it is all the same. Wake up do stuff sleep, repeat until death. The meaning comes from what you do in your life. I work towards communism because it would be a better way of life with more posotive things. There is happiness in everything but somethings are easier to be happy about than others.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 09:10 AM
Death does not have to be philosiphised into anything. Death is what we call it when you no longer have life. Thats the sum total of its meaning.

Yes, but it is an elementary philosophical point that opposites define each other. Death would be meaningless without the existance of life - similarly life would be meaningless if there was no other way - i.e. if there was no way of "not being alive".

--- G.

[The Feral Underclass]

human beings created meaning to their lives because of the lack of control over them....Because we have no meaning in our life, because we can not explain it we attach a meaning. the meaning of life in current society is the persuit of wealth, fame, fast car or looks, materialism has replaced god as the meaning of life....but, the persuit of material things is false, because we as anarchists or communists accept that we can live with these belongings without having to spend our lives persuing them, ultimatly failing. So the persuit for material things can not be the meaning of life.

So if the meaning of life is not god, and it is not the persuit of material things there still remains a truth. What is the only thing that can never end, that will always be replaced with something new, that we as animals have the brain power to do....experience! We can experience music and films, art and dance, culture, language, literature, socializing, travelling, seeing the world it is endless. We humans create new experinces every day, new films, new books that can be expericned new people to meet, new ideas to talk about, new inventions to make, new food, and then we give birth to new humans who experince what we did and what the old did and then they create some new experinces all the time existing within an experience we created. There for the meaning of life is existing, which is defined by the experiences we create for ourselves and for the future generation....

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by Dhul Fiqar+Oct 15 2003, 02:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dhul Fiqar @ Oct 15 2003, 02:58 AM)
[email protected] 15 2003, 09:10 AM
Death does not have to be philosiphised into anything. Death is what we call it when you no longer have life. Thats the sum total of its meaning.

Yes, but it is an elementary philosophical point that opposites define each other. Death would be meaningless without the existance of life - similarly life would be meaningless if there was no other way - i.e. if there was no way of "not being alive".

--- G. [/b]
So are you alive prior to knowing that you think and knowing that you exist?

If you did not know you could die or that others died, would you be alive? Would you know you exist?

[The Feral Underclass]

There is always a truth&#33;...in your mind if you do not know what existance is, you do not exist, because you have no knowledge of existance. but, in reality, in truth, you exist because you are alive.

[Dhul Fiqar]

EC: I was dead before I was alive - in the sense that "death" is the absence of being ;)

--- G.

[The Feral Underclass]

would anyone care to elaberate on what I put.........

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by Libertarian [email protected] 15 2003, 06:25 AM
would anyone care to elaberate on what I put.........
I wish I could, but I think I only understand about 50% of what Dhul just replied back to me with. ;)

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by Libertarian [email protected] 15 2003, 06:20 AM
There is always a truth&#33;...in your mind if you do not know what existance is, you do not exist, because you have no knowledge of existance. but, in reality, in truth, you exist because you are alive.
hmmmm I think the first rule is..

I think, therefore I am. -- Descartes.

So when you say you exist because you are alive, you are giving credit to a mind and a heart and many other things. You are giving credit to the physical being of alive. But truly you are not alive if you are not aware of it.

I guess if you do not know you are alive and that you exist, then that existence is meaningless. Why exist at that point? You are no more existing than an animal? What is the point of just being there, if you do not know you are there and that someday you may not be there and that you were not always there?

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 15 2003, 06:24 AM
EC: I was dead before I was alive - in the sense that "death" is the absence of being ;)

--- G.
So there is no difference in me, prior to my physical conception and my first years of physical life, that is all a death and remains so even once I hit the point of knowing I am me. Then from there I exist and will till I go back to where I no longer know I exist....my physical death.

Oh wow, Existentialism can get scary. I think I just figured out why people might not care so much about killing retarded people, the insane and the coma.... oh what a scary path indeed.

[Droes lee]

the "meaning" of life is between born (physical death)and death(also a physical death) buth overal ther&#39;s no defenition of the meaning of life
you can say I think life is live so the meaning is life


Oh wow, Existentialism can get scary. I think I just figured out why people might not care so much about killing retarded people, the insane and the coma.... oh what a scary path indeed. can you explaine that? I can&#39;t come in that idea ....

[The Feral Underclass]

So there is no difference in me, prior to my physical conception and my first years of physical life, that is all a death and remains so even once I hit the point of knowing I am me. Then from there I exist and will till I go back to where I no longer know I exist....my physical death.

...So what is the meaning of life? camus said "the absurd has meaning only insofar as it is not agreed to" - "Life therefore, has no meaning. It is inescapably absurd. It asks only whether I can live with it or die of it"

But it is unproductive to get into such fatalistic ruts....we are born, we exist and we do it in a beautiful world...well, hypothetically. I wrote this in this thread, please comment on it....

"human beings created meaning to their lives because of the lack of control over them....Because we have no meaning in our life, because we can not explain it we attach a meaning. the meaning of life in current society is the persuit of wealth, fame, fast car or looks, materialism has replaced god as the meaning of life....but, the persuit of material things is false, because we as anarchists or communists accept that we can live with these belongings without having to spend our lives persuing them, ultimatly failing, this is not the true meaning of life. the persuit for material things can not be the meaning of life.

So if the meaning of life is not god, and it is not the persuit of material things there still remains a truth. What is the only thing that can never end, that will always be replaced with something new, that we as animals have the brain power to do....experience&#33; We can experience music and films, art and dance, culture, language, literature, socializing, travelling, seeing the world it is endless. We humans create new experinces every day, new films, new books that can be expericned new people to meet, new ideas to talk about, new inventions to make, new food, and then we give birth to new humans who experince what we did and what the old did and then they create some new experinces all the time existing within an experience we created. There for the meaning of life is existing, which is defined by the experiences we create for ourselves and for the future generation.... "

[Dhul Fiqar]

Droes lee: Because those people don&#39;t truly "exist" in the way we tend to think we exist - as a stream of rational consciousness regarding itself and the world around it. I personally think being self-aware is an illusion anyway - but explaining my basis for that belief could get very complicated and I need to buy some aspirin first =D

--- G.

[Towelly]

I think you can be self aware but as such we try to express ourselves through language which can only ever be a representation not the thought itself.Words are just labels to try and put order on the world.

[BuyOurEverything]

Conciousness is an illusion created by the fact that no species can ever comprehend itself. Therefore there is no such thing as counsiousness, which is the only thing that seperates life from say, a rock. Therefore "life" does not exist and animals (including humans) are just parts of the machine that is the universe.

[Red Flag]

life is death.. once you live you die..

the only thing guaranteed from you being born is you dying.

all finite things, that is things with a begaining, must have an end.

[The Feral Underclass]

life is death.. once you live you die..

the only thing guaranteed from you being born is you dying.

all finite things, that is things with a begaining, must have an end.

But we can not live our lives with such fatalism....if this is true, then should we or should we not try and bring meaning to out lives? If you say there can never be any meaning to our lives other than death, then we can conclude that we should all commit suicide.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Why on earth would you say that? If life is given meaning by death - and death is everything except for the 80 or so years you get to spend in the state of "existance" - surely suicide is the most pointless thing in the world?

--- G.

[The Feral Underclass]

I was merely pointing out the fatality of the argument "the meaning of life is death", if the meaning of life is death, then we might as well kill ourselves...as dying is the whole purpose of living&#33;

[Dhul Fiqar]

No, that would be the reaction to a statement such as "death is preferable to life" - the argument here is not to glorify death over life but to point out the fundamental fact that one cannot exist independantly of the other - they give each other meaning.

--- G.

[The Feral Underclass]

i dont agree for a minute that we should all commit suicide, I do not believe that the meaning of life is death...however, if the meaning of your life is to serve god, then you will spend your life serving him...if the meaning of your life is to eat donuts then you will fullfill that meaning by eating donuts...therefore, if the meaning of life is death, you will fullfill that meaning by dying....staying alive negates the hole meaning of ur existance, so by commiting suicide you are fullfilling the meaning of ur life. Death&#33;

i suppose its a silly argument.

[Droes lee]

suicide? I think the way you prepare you&#39;re dead is the mening of live the way you live ...

you can argue this for the rest of you&#39;re life sooo eh... stickie? :huh: :unsure:

[Dhul Fiqar]

Originally posted by Libertarian [email protected] 16 2003, 08:28 PM
i dont agree for a minute that we should all commit suicide, I do not believe that the meaning of life is death...however, if the meaning of your life is to serve god, then you will spend your life serving him...if the meaning of your life is to eat donuts then you will fullfill that meaning by eating donuts...therefore, if the meaning of life is death, you will fullfill that meaning by dying....staying alive negates the hole meaning of ur existance, so by commiting suicide you are fullfilling the meaning of ur life. Death&#33;

i suppose its a silly argument.
Sorry - but you completely misunderstood the intent of the phrase and what it means. Sure it is possible to split hairs and say: "Well, when I hear a sentance like that I assume it means we should kill ourselves" - that simply has nothing at all to do with the philosophical argument being placed by the sentance.

The difference between the juxtaposition of opposites like life and death on one hand - to eating a baked good such as a donut on the other - cannot be overstated =D

--- G.

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 14 2003, 11:43 PM
Death is what gives life meaning.

--- G.
i disagree...



death does not give any meaning nor sense to life..
it is the person itself that gives any (or none) meaning to life...



remember matter doesnt have a meaning nor a "sense", nor do you..


so in resume the "meaning of life" cannot be found writen on a holly book nor holly scripture of some sort..
but on your own analisis and intrepertation of life itself...

[Dhul Fiqar]

So if you had always existed and would always exist - life would still be a unique experience? Not in my definition - but then again I am a relativist =D

--- G.

[The Feral Underclass]

DF&#33; how long have you been studying philosophy...have you done it at an academic level or did you self learn? :ph34r:

[Dhul Fiqar]

I did it for a few years myself when I was going through serious depression and wondering about the meaning of life - then when I started studying the social sciences we had to get into some different philosophies to understand the philosophical background of some social thinkers like Foucault and Plato and such.

It&#39;s sort of a hobby that comes in very handy in my studies :)

--- G.

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Hey Hey&#33;&#33; I think that there are too many different possibilities for us to argue for as the meaning of life, let me just paraphrase my good bud aristotle. There are many goods, but there is only one good that is only intrinsically good and not instrumentally good. That is, it is totally good in itself, and can&#39;t lead up to any other good. What is it, you ask? Happiness.

There are some other concerns being discussed here, like when are you alive? You only KNOW that you&#39;re alive when you&#39;re having thoughts, just like Descartes said. And that is the ONLY thing you&#39;re assured of. Epistemology, people, the study of the nature of knowledge.

So basically, consciousness is not an illusion, but is actually the only non-illusion that we know is not an illusion.

[Palmares]

Rather than death being &#39;the&#39;, or &#39;a&#39; meaning to life, I see more as the result of life. Life is the result of being born, and death is the result of being alive. This by no means insinuates that one should aim for the result of life (death), but rather accept that is the &#39;final outcome&#39; as such. Perhaps this subject appear somewhat fatalistic in its conclusions (or theoretical conclusions), but the is the result of Taoistic absolutes.

Not to sound cliche, but there is no &#39;the&#39; meaning to life, but rather &#39;a&#39; meaning to life.

It may be your education, to overthrow capitalism, etc. It will always change according to your goal(s) in life.

For me, at the moment, love is my meaning to life. How long it will be is another question.

[apathy maybe]

The meaning to life is 2. The meaning to everything 40 and the meaning of the universe is 0. Therefore the meaning of life the universe and everything is 42&#33;
(For a more complete breakdown of my calculations PM me.)

The breakdown of life, is that we are either,
what we make of it OR
what we are made from it.

The first one means that you will make your own meaning to life by however.

The second means that you flow with the stream, taking the easiest options even if it is detrimental to you.

[Alejandro C]

&#39;i will be a worker: it&#39;s this idea that keeps me alive, when my mad fury would have me leap into the midst of paris&#39; battles-where how many other workers die as i write these words? to work now? never, never: i&#39;m on strike.

right now, i&#39;m beshitting myself as much as possible. why? i want to be a poet, and i&#39;m working to turn myself into a SEER: you won&#39;t understand at all, and it&#39;s unlikely that i&#39;ll be able to explain it to you. it has to do with making your way towards the unknown by a rational derangement of ALL THE SENSES. the suffering is tremendous, but one must bear up against it, to be born a poet, and i know that&#39;s what i am. it&#39;s not at all my fault. it&#39;s wrong to say I THINK THEREFORE I AM: one should say I AM THOUGHT. I IS SOMEONE ELSE. tough luck to the wood that becomes a violin, and to hell with the unaware who quibble over what they&#39;re completely missing anyway&#33;&#39;


-Arthur Rimbaud age 16


i was going to just say that i disagree with descartes but i thought puting in a part of that letter would be more interesting to you all. Rimbaud at age 15 was telling his teachers that descartes had it wrong on the first word of cogito ergo sum. i am inclined to agree. i also agree wholeheartedly with duhl. death brings meaning to life because it makes life finite. limits are necesary.

however i also find existence truth in buddhist ideas such as the PATICCA-SAMUPPADA, which is the chain of causation, the 12 causal states of the individual, each one determining the next:

1.ignorance
2.mental elements
3.consciousness
4.mind and body
5.6 senses
6.contact
7.feeling
8.craving
9.becoming
10.birth
11.old age
12.death


of course this disagrees with Kant which i do as well.

[Sartrefan]

That we&#39;re *free* to suicide is what makes our moment-by-moment will to live so precious...it&#39;s not about &#39;suicide is good&#39; or &#39;life is good&#39;--it seems to me the existentialists are suggesting that it is the freedom, bubbling up from the fact that we do exist, to choose between them that really matters...and having chosen, within the limitation of mortality, we create our world. well, that&#39;s how i take it...

i don&#39;t take it to be morbid--it&#39;s liberating

didn&#39;t Sartre say Che was the most authentic man he had ever known?

ever read de Beauvoir&#39;s "All Men Are Mortal"? it&#39;s about a guy who drinks a potion that makes him immortal--eventually his life is wholly meaningless, nothing he does matters to him, either for good or ill...he&#39;s never defined by death.

[Sartrefan]

Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 27 2003, 10:19 PM
don&#39;t say I THINK THEREFORE I AM: one should say I AM THOUGHT.


AlejandroC: but even to say "I am thought" must imply an existential prefix----&#62;"I think that &#39;I am thought&#39;" or "I claim that &#39;I am thought."

isn&#39;t Descartes saying that your own existence can never be honestly doubted and not that &#39;thought precedes existence&#39;...if this is wrong, then the existentialists really blew it b/c they hold that &#39;existence precedes essence&#39; (you have &#39;to be&#39; before you can be any*thing*...even &#39;thought&#39;?)

[Alejandro C]

even to say "I am thought" must imply an existential prefix----&#62;"I think that &#39;I am thought&#39;" or "I claim that &#39;I am thought&#39;


i dissagree- i didn&#39;t see i am thought as a claim, meerly an expression. "i am thought, i is someone else" those make the self an abstraction.

[Rasta Sapian]

interesting concept apathy&#33; Life is a gift which we all share, what we do with our lives in our own concious physical reality may inturn effect our afterlives :blink:

Live for the moment&#33; Fight for what you beleive in&#33; Impirialists will always be blinded by greed ;)

[Sartrefan]

Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 6 2003, 07:14 AM

i dissagree- i didn&#39;t see i am thought as a claim, meerly an expression. "i am thought, i is someone else" those make the self an abstraction.
AlejandroC--

I&#39;m not sure I quite follow you here--can you give a bit more?

To *whom* are you abstract? If you&#39;re abstract to your self, would the self have to be concrete? I&#39;m a bit muddled by this "I is someone else" notion.

Would that someone else also be I? If so, then you&#39;re back to the person making the claim (or the expression) in the first place...In all these cases, who is it who is thinking/speaking/expressing/abstracting?

I love the existentialists--it&#39;s like falling into a juggling act full of knives, cobras and chocolate bars.

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 12:32 AM

To *whom* are you abstract? If you&#39;re abstract to your self, would the self have to be concrete? I&#39;m a bit muddled by this "I is someone else" notion.

Would that someone else also be I? If so, then you&#39;re back to the person making the claim (or the expression) in the first place...In all these cases, who is it who is thinking/speaking/expressing/abstracting?


you aren&#39;t abstract to anyone... maybe your essence is abstraction.... damn i have to confess i&#39;m a little more than lost. backtracking.. i&#39;d have to say the self is the self in the buddhist sense. it is an abstraction to the world but non existent to the self? fuck&#33; ....i&#39;ll get back to you after i figure this all out (27 years).

[canikickit]

Life and death don&#39;t have meanings.

Life is for you to live. Walk around, see what happens, talk to people.
Death happens because your body is worn out from doing stuff with it.

People have individual purposes and fit into the planet in different ways. Your ultimate goal is to stop breathing as late as you can.

[caseyjones]

Life only has meaning if we choose to do everything with passion. The meaninglessness of life is not in question; it is only through passion that we can derive meaning. Just as Sysiphus pushed pushed the boulder up the hill again and again for the same meaningless result every time, so must we live.

[Purple]

There is no heaven or hell, it is just right here, right now... What is the point of believing anything else? All you do is to use important brain capasity... Thinking is hard&#33;

[Valkyrie]

one&#39;s Being-into-existence is consciously aware of Itself by Others before it is consciously aware of of-itself... (pro-choice position)

The paradox of existence is that despite the fact of certain defeat-- that being death; humans still strive for life in vein, hoping, dreaming, planning the future of which goal is to ultimately blot out all of existence from the collective consciousness. oh well....

Yeah, Anarchist Tension&#33; I agree - to experience, and create and contribute --- what else is there?

[katie mccready]

life and deth are one. we go through strugles and chalanges just to die i canot belve that we do this live through school, work and retiament. people think that retiement is fun i bet it is full of resentment lolenes and bordem. i think school life is simeler. evry night you will go sleep and you expect to wake up at 6:30 but there is still a somthing in the back of you head that maby you whont you should live in deth not fering it.

[RedAnarchist]

Life is the action - death the reaction

[CommunistRob]

Once spirituality is the most important thing in your life than you need not worry about death only what you will do afterwards.

[anti machine]

I think one of the fundamental problems of humanity, addressed by existentialism, is the conception of life and death, cause and effect, beginning and end. These things exist only in man&#39;s head---it is not necessary or positive to live with death always in the back of one&#39;s mind. Society, culture, and religion have scarred us with the assertion of some justification in the beyond for which we must be perpetually mindful. Death is simply a facet of life, not a judgement day or reward for all the works we accomplished when alive. Existence is absurd, said Sartre, and death need not be perceived or speculated about any differently.