What to do with extremely violent criminals?

[RadioRaheem84]

What do socialists say, or what should we say when questioned about violent criminals? And I am not talking about gang members compelled by the streets to commit horrible crimes, but types like Jefferey Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy that are severely screwed up in the head to commit the most heinous of crimes?

Can they really be rehabilitated? What is the materialist approach to the question of violent criminals such as these?

[Manic Impressive]

Oh it's that time of the month again, already, time for this thread.

In the case of people who are mentally ill like Dhamer and Gacy it's a question for people qualified in treating psychosis which I'm pretty sure no one here is. So like it's predecessors this thread will be full of speculation on an extremely rare and complicated subject, which none of us know enough about.

[Principia Ethica]

Maybe I'm being an idealist but in a socialist society, if medical research isn't based on making some corporation gazillions of dollars, maybe some of the more "unprofitable" conditions would start getting some attention.

As it stands now, they KNOW that there are childhood patterns to these criminals, they KNOW their brain is different than a "normal" brain but they stop there. There is no incentive as far as profit to look any further.

I think since socialist medical research wouldn't be hampered by the question "Is this going to be profitable or not?" and instead ask "Would finding a solution for this be helpful to society and make it better?" they would most likely come up with a better way to deal/treat this "condition" (because I'm hard pressed to believe anyone would WANT to be like this and live the resultant lifestyle) than we do presently.

[danyboy27]

psychiatric facility.

The goal isnt to punish the person, but to protect the people.

[RadioRaheem84]

this thread is not meant to be a "hey, but they're serial killers, we should punish them or kill them", but one meant to understand why violent criminals like Dahmer and Gacy do what they do, what is the materialist answer? What would be the best way to deal with them, rather than the typical kill 'em let god sort 'em out approach?

[danyboy27]

this thread is not meant to be a "hey, but they're serial killers, we should punish them or kill them", but one meant to understand why violent criminals like Dahmer and Gacy do what they do, what is the materialist answer? What would be the best way to deal with them, rather than the typical kill 'em let god sort 'em out approach?

Well, that why we need them in a psychiatric facility, to understand those things.

[Sixiang]

this thread is not meant to be a "hey, but they're serial killers, we should punish them or kill them", but one meant to understand why violent criminals like Dahmer and Gacy do what they do, what is the materialist answer? What would be the best way to deal with them, rather than the typical kill 'em let god sort 'em out approach?

Incarcerate them in facilities (prisons). If they are especially violent and "messed up", put them in solitary confinement, not without plenty of opportunities for psychiatric treatment. In a socialist society, I would much rather have some Psychological Association come up with specifics on what to do with it all. That is, maybe this association would have a subcommittee devoted to analyzing and treating violent criminals and they would be able to come up with some resolutions on what to do to help treat them. Something much more scientific than just a bunch of people who know next to nothing about psychology say "execute them because otherwise they'll just kill more people." Of course it could be a bit different from that. Fuck knows what said future society would look like.

Which makes me wonder: does anyone have any good books or online texts on psychology and dealing with violent criminals in the USSR, PRC, Cuba, and so forth? I'm curious what psychology was like/is like in those societies.

[Jose Gracchus]

The USSR used to use involuntary commitment to psychiatric institutions on the pretext of imaginary disease (viz. "sluggishly progressing schizophrenia" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggishly_progressing_schizophrenia)) to get rid of political dissidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union).

[Leftsolidarity]

The USSR used to use involuntary commitment to psychiatric institutions on the pretext of imaginary disease (viz. "sluggishly progressing schizophrenia") to get rid of political dissidents

How does this have anything to do with the question the OP is asking?

[Jose Gracchus]

I'm replying to the previous poster, not the OP:


Which makes me wonder: does anyone have any good books or online texts on psychology and dealing with violent criminals in the USSR, PRC, Cuba, and so forth? I'm curious what psychology was like/is like in those societies.

I think my reply did provide an explanation for how psychology was approached within the societies. In another problem, the USSR refused to acknowledge it had serial murderers (it was a "Western" problem, of course), and therefore some got away with many crimes before they were arrested due to self-delusion about the nature of the crimes.

Psychiatry was highly politicized, so I think expecting much Scandanavian-type open-mindedness on the part of Soviet psychology is pretty naive.

As for my own view re. the OP, I think by sheer probability there will probably be some infinitesimal proportion of the population who acts out in appallingly inhumane and antisocial ways no matter the improvements in social conditions, and there will have to be forcible confinement, though certainly with an eye toward rehabilitation and eventual parole if possible, and in much better conditions for much fewer persons (to make an understatement) than today.

[Sixiang]

How does this have anything to do with the question the OP is asking?

I think he was responding to my questions. Sorry for veering off topic a little.

[MarxSchmarx]

So let's dissect some of the premises here.

First, there is an assumption that there is at least some genetic contribution to serial killing. It also seems implicitly held that there is also some environmental component as well, thus the "contribution" of the two effects.

Second, there is an assumption that this genetic contribution can over-ride the considerable environmental component.

Now, there's a lot of these premises that are debatable, and supporters of capitalism as well as quite a few other people basically embrace them.

But even if were to grant them these, it hardly follows that the capitalist approach centered on integrating punishment with rehabilitation is even remotely acceptable.

Under these points, I don't see why people can't be placed in an environment, presumably something like psychiatric care, where their genetic propensity to kill others would be overcome, and where they could be conditioned not to act on that propensity. Moreover, as the science of psychology matures, it will become more adept at intervening and treating "innate psychopaths" before crimes occur. I think only a socialist society could make that possible.

But, there is going to be utter, unpredictable randomness - that is, a one in a million person who for some reason just clicks even under say full communism. I don't think this is unlikely - if anything, I would be quite surprised if it didn't happen. These people there won't be anyway of protecting the public from even with the best of science short of keeping everyone in cages.

The question then is whether rehabilitation can work on those people, or whether they need to be in psychiatric care that may not be able to really help them, presumably with the people whose genetic propensity to commit murders is so overwhelmingly large and in a care facility geared at "correcting" the behavior of those with a strong innate propensity to harm others.

I think to some extent we on the left have to admit that all societies, during all stages, under all economic systems - certainly will have such individuals just as earthquakes won't stop after socialism. It therefore behooves us to have a good answer to this question and understand where it's coming from.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Rope is cheap and reusable

[Sixiang]

Rope is cheap and reusable

Good thing money will be abolished under communism.

[Weezer]

Penal colonies.

Alternatively, put them up against a wall and well, you know.