Lumpen-?

[Leftsolidarity]

So I'm having difficulty understand how things are classified as lumpen-proletariat or lumpen-bourgeois. I've heard some people describe gangsters as lumpen-proletariat and police as lumpen-bourgeois and I've also heard the exact opposite. Could someone clear this up for me?

[Impulse97]

Lumpenproletariat, a collective term from Lumpenproletarian (a German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language) word literally meaning "raggedy proletarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletarian)"), was first defined by Karl Marx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx) and Friedrich Engels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels) in The German Ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_German_Ideology) (1845) and later elaborated on in other works by Marx. The term was originally coined by Marx to describe that layer of the working class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class), unlikely to ever achieve class consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), lost to socially useful production, and therefore of no use in revolutionary struggle or an actual impediment to the realization of a classless society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_society)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpen_proletariat#cite_note-0)

Lumpenbourgeoisie is a term most often attributed to Andre Gunder Frank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Gunder_Frank) in 1972[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Hos-1) [a] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#endnote_anone) to describe a type of a middle class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0) and upper class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_class)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-sch-2) (merchants, lawyers, industrialists, etc.)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Harr-3); one that has little collective self-awareness or economic base[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0) and who supports the colonial masters.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-sch-2) The term is most often used in the context of Latin America.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Hos-1)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Harr-3)That's via wikipedia. Well, I learned something today.:D

[Tommy4ever]

I'm reading ''The Ragged Trousered Phillanthropists'' at the moment and I think it might help shine a little light on the term.

In the book a group called the ''Loafer Class'' is mentioned. This class consists of socially useless groups who do no work whatsoever and contribute nothing to society through work - they merely consume. In this ''Loafer Class'' were aristocrats, 'society people' (modern day socialites and celebs), those of heriditary wealth, tramps, beggars and criminals.

The latter mentioned groups who live lives in conditions comparable or worse than the working class would be considered lumpen. In modern society you might also consider people who live on unemployment benefits but make no actual attempt to find work lumpen as well (this group tends to be statistically much smaller than is usually infered by rightwingers mind ...).

[Black Sheep]

First time i hear about "lumpen bourgeois"

[Kadir Ateş]

I personally never liked the term "lumpenproletariat" and quite frankly find it degrading towards those with even less means than the proles.

[Sixiang]

I'm reading ''The Ragged Trousered Phillanthropists'' at the moment and I think it might help shine a little light on the term.

In the book a group called the ''Loafer Class'' is mentioned. This class consists of socially useless groups who do no work whatsoever and contribute nothing to society through work - they merely consume. In this ''Loafer Class'' were aristocrats, 'society people' (modern day socialites and celebs), those of heriditary wealth, tramps, beggars and criminals.

The latter mentioned groups who live lives in conditions comparable or worse than the working class would be considered lumpen. In modern society you might also consider people who live on unemployment benefits but make no actual attempt to find work lumpen as well (this group tends to be statistically much smaller than is usually infered by rightwingers mind ...).

That's what I always thought it meant. I thought it was the unemployed proletariat who for one reason or another don't really care to work. But I suppose it could include the other groups who only consume. But then, don't the bourgeoisie live off of the proletariat's labor and thus not really produce anything? Sure some of them may be accountants and bankers and other "organizers" in society, but is that really producing anything? I'm getting my Marxist terms all mixed up now. I need to refresh on Capital.

[hatzel]

First time i hear about "lumpen bourgeois"

I only heard it from that user who's name was 'lumpenbourgeois' or something similar, and I assumed it was just some clever little joke. Which it also may have been when whoever it was who said it that was mentioned on Wikipedia said it (coherent sentence, eh? :rolleyes:)

Anybody else going to confirm the existence of the concept of lumpen-b?

[Aurora]

Lumpen-bourgeois is a nonsense term used primarily by people who have no coherent understanding of what class is and decide to invent their own, examples include DNZ and syndicat.
They invented some other crap like 'managerial class' 'bureaucratic class' and 'lumpen-scum' aswell.

[Hit The North]

I only heard it from that user who's name was 'lumpenbourgeois' or something similar, and I assumed it was just some clever little joke. Which it also may have been when whoever it was who said it that was mentioned on Wikipedia said it (coherent sentence, eh? :rolleyes:)

Anybody else going to confirm the existence of the concept of lumpen-b?

I think your hunch that it's an ironic appellation rather than a serious Marxist or sociological designation is correct. I mean, Frank might have used it, but I think it lacks rigour.

I agree with Kadir that the term lumpen is unhelpful because it has come to embody a set of undesirable and negative social attributes (criminality/idleness/drug-dealing and taking/sexual promiscuity/etc.) and embodies a particularly self-righteous and moralistic standpoint from those who apply the stigma to others and is almost always used as a form of insult. It makes some folks who are having a rough time feel a little better about themselves.

One of the tricks of capitalism is to convince its slaves that they achieve emancipation through their labour. Ruling class ideology piles guilt on our heads when we refuse to put our shoulders to the wheel. It is disappointing to find this echoed in the rhetoric of those who claim to represent the revolutionary aspirations of the working class.

[Rooster]

I only heard it from that user who's name was 'lumpenbourgeois' or something similar, and I assumed it was just some clever little joke. Which it also may have been when whoever it was who said it that was mentioned on Wikipedia said it (coherent sentence, eh? :rolleyes:)

Anybody else going to confirm the existence of the concept of lumpen-b?

Marx makes this reference in the 18th Brumaire:


The finance aristocracy, in its mode of acquisition as well as in its pleasures, is nothing but the rebirth of the lumpenproletariat on the heights of bourgeois society.

[Ocean Seal]

That's what I always thought it meant. I thought it was the unemployed proletariat who for one reason or another don't really care to work. But I suppose it could include the other groups who only consume. But then, don't the bourgeoisie live off of the proletariat's labor and thus not really produce anything? Sure some of them may be accountants and bankers and other "organizers" in society, but is that really producing anything? I'm getting my Marxist terms all mixed up now. I need to refresh on Capital.
The differences I would think between the lumpen-proletariat and the bourgeoisie comes from the bourgeoisie getting more than a living wage rather reliably from the work of those that they exploit and having complete control over the state whereas the lumpen element has to go around searching for options to give them cash rather unreliably.

[Nuvem]

I personally never liked the term "lumpenproletariat" and quite frankly find it degrading towards those with even less means than the proles.

There's nothing degrading about it. I'm currently a lumpen and have been for quite some time. The difference between me and most lumpenproletariat (like gang members) is that I'm class conscious and revolutionary. In the USA today, mobilization, education and militarization of the lumpenproletariat is absolutely crucial to a revolution. In a country with so many non-working working class people and groups with so much undirected or misdirected animosity towards the bourgeois capitalist system, the lumpen have great potential to challenge the existing social order. That's what was so great about the Black Panther Party- that's why the government took such extreme measures to murder and arrest so many of them. Of course a revolution can't be led by lumpen, just like it can't be led by students, but they can and must supplement it.

[A.J.]

So I'm having difficulty understand how things are classified as lumpen-proletariat or lumpen-bourgeois. I've heard some people describe gangsters as lumpen-proletariat and police as lumpen-bourgeois and I've also heard the exact opposite. Could someone clear this up for me?

http://www.mltranslations.org/US/Rpo/classes/classes4.htm

I have no idea what this "lumpen-bourgeois" is.


Lumpenbourgeoisie is a term most often attributed to Andre Gunder Frank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Gunder_Frank) in 1972[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Hos-1) [a] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#endnote_anone) to describe a type of a middle class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0) and upper class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_class)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-sch-2) (merchants, lawyers, industrialists, etc.)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Harr-3); one that has little collective self-awareness or economic base[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0) and who supports the colonial masters.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Haw-0)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-sch-2) The term is most often used in the context of Latin America.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Hos-1)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie#cite_note-Harr-3)

I s this not the what's called the comprador bourgeoisie?

[danyboy27]

people on welfare are also considered lumpen.

[Aurora]

people on welfare are also considered lumpen.

There's a difference between workers who are temporarily out of work and on welfare and those who live consistently on welfare. The former are workers the latter are pretty insignificant but i guess you could say lumpenproletarian.

It's horrendously bad analysis to consider all those on welfare as lumpenproletarian if that were the case then 14% of ireland is lumpen, 21% of spain etc etc

[piet11111]

Lumpen bourgeois are criminals who are very succesful say a drug/warlord who makes his/her money by making lesser criminals do their bidding.

[danyboy27]

There's a difference between workers who are temporarily out of work and on welfare and those who live consistently on welfare. The former are workers the latter are pretty insignificant but i guess you could say lumpenproletarian.

It's horrendously bad analysis to consider all those on welfare as lumpenproletarian if that were the case then 14% of ireland is lumpen, 21% of spain etc etc

i meant those who consistently live on welfare, sorry if you understood something else.

[ColonelCossack]

I'm reading ''The Ragged Trousered Phillanthropists'' at the moment and I think it might help shine a little light on the term.

AMAZING BOOK.

Have you got to the great money trick yet?

I think the workers like Crass do embody the lumpenproletariat, but I also think Tressell was trying to convey a feeling of hope toward the end that the builders would gain class consciousness and improve their lives.

I think the foreman (who's name I can't remember) also reflects the lumpenbourgeoisie, in the sense that he's a slimy arsehole (is that word allowed?) who also sucks up to(is that allowed?) Rushton and I think got to his position by being a completely self serving prick but still is ignorant to the terrible system he's a part of until he... well, you'lll know what I mean if you've read the book.

[Kadir Ateş]

There's nothing degrading about it. I'm currently a lumpen and have been for quite some time. The difference between me and most lumpenproletariat (like gang members) is that I'm class conscious and revolutionary. In the USA today, mobilization, education and militarization of the lumpenproletariat is absolutely crucial to a revolution. In a country with so many non-working working class people and groups with so much undirected or misdirected animosity towards the bourgeois capitalist system, the lumpen have great potential to challenge the existing social order. That's what was so great about the Black Panther Party- that's why the government took such extreme measures to murder and arrest so many of them. Of course a revolution can't be led by lumpen, just like it can't be led by students, but they can and must supplement it.

How are you lumpen (also, sort of strange that one would wear this proudly as Marx himself had a disdain for what he considered as "social scum'). I think the category is entirely bogus analytically and "morally".

[piet11111]

Lumpen proles i always understood as the people that are unemployed, unable (disabled) or unwilling (criminals) to work.
Essentially they should belong to the working class but for some reason are not a part of it.