Would You Call Me Sexist?

[Comrade Crow]

Ok, so, take this scenario, you see me and my gf, walking down the street, nothings odd or anything, except she's wearing hijab and we live in the West, in particular, America. If you didn't know me or my political affiliations and saw us, what would you think? Do you think I was sexist and misogynistic? What if I were to tell you that she is wearing the hijab on her own free will? That she is wearing it despite those around her telling her not or that she shouldn't? That she is wearing this strictly because she believes she should out of a firm and rational, religious, political and cultural conviction? Thoughts? Just curious due to a convo me and one of my new friends had.

[Susurrus]

It would only be sexist if you were forcing her to wear it, imho.

[Le Socialiste]

If I never knew you and/or hadn't seen you before, I'd wonder if the hijab was a voluntary or forced decision. I don't know much about the history behind it, so I'd only have how it has been used in recent years to decide.

If you were to tell me, however, that she is wearing this out of her own free will, despite what others tell her and out of some religious, cultural, and political conviction, and this was true - I wouldn't think you were sexist. People are free to dress as they please, provided they do so voluntarily and aren't forced.

Isn't the hijab symbolic of a patriarchal system though, based on a belief that a woman should be covered up at all times (or at least in public)? The reasoning behind such dress I don't approve of - if that is indeed the case.

[Comrade Crow]

If I never knew you and/or hadn't seen you before, I'd wonder if the hijab was a voluntary or forced decision. I don't know much about the history behind it, so I'd only have how it has been used in recent years to decide.

If you were to tell me, however, that she is wearing this out of her own free will, despite what others tell her and out of some religious, cultural, and political conviction, and this was true - I wouldn't think you were sexist. People are free to dress as they please, provided they do so voluntarily and aren't forced.

Isn't the hijab symbolic of a patriarchal system though, based on a belief that a woman should be covered up at all times (or at least in public)? The reasoning behind such dress I don't approve of - if that is indeed the case.

The history of the hijab is interesting. Usually it was to distinguish a woman as being "free" or something to that effect and the reasoning for it, (aside from verses in al-Qur'an which say a woman is to guard what Allah (swt) would have her guard), is that by covering herself, not only will she not be lead into temptation or lead a man to think impure thoughts and sin or anything of that nature, she would also force the other party to view her as a person, not an object and will not be judged by her looks or lack thereof. This is what I have always heard and this is what she tells me.


It would only be sexist if you were forcing her to wear it, imho.

Agreed, I actually told her that I agreed with her family, given the climate here and the fact that I'm not sure if it's obligatory to wear it or not and is probably a cultural custom. But, I felt even this also was sexist on my part, given the fact that I should not be trying to influence her chosen style of dress in either direction. It would be sexist, imo, if I were to force her to wear hijab or not wear it.

Mainly I am just curious because my friend thought and told me, while smoking, that he thought I made her wear hijab or forced her too or something. Which, kind of struck me because I'm sure he's not the only one whom thinks this and as both a Muslim and an Anarchist, it just irks me to think this is what people think. I don't know, just some late night thoughts.

[jake williams]

I'm going to be really honest and say that ultimately I think the reasoning behind having different dress codes for men and women, which Islam has - including not allowing women to be topless, something rarely questioned in many liberal Western countries - is sexist.

There is nothing intrinsically sexist, however, about a free decision to cover one's hair. It's also not really a problem. I disagree with why Muslim women wear hijabs, but I don't think it constitutes a real social problem that many of them do.

If you share with your girlfriend the sexist beliefs that I think are part of having separate dress codes for men and women, then again, I would disagree with you, but I can think of worse sexist beliefs.

[Revolution starts with U]

No. I wouldn't care. I would, however, think she is sexist. As if a woman can "lead a man into temptation." We make our own decisions.

[Le Libérer]

Moved to discrimination.

[Hit The North]

No. I wouldn't care. I would, however, think she is sexist. As if a woman can "lead a man into temptation." We make our own decisions.

That might not be the reason she's wearing it, though. In public women get "checked out" a lot by men and I can imagine that being hidden from the male gaze might be kind of liberating.

Wearing the hijab might be her response to male power.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

No. I wouldn't care. I would, however, think she is sexist. As if a woman can "lead a man into temptation." We make our own decisions.
I lead several men almost into car accidents because they were trying to hit on me from their cars and hence not looking at the road. That happens on average once or twice a month with me.

[Ocean Seal]

Ok, so, take this scenario, you see me and my gf, walking down the street, nothings odd or anything, except she's wearing hijab and we live in the West, in particular, America. If you didn't know me or my political affiliations and saw us, what would you think? Do you think I was sexist and misogynistic? What if I were to tell you that she is wearing the hijab on her own free will? That she is wearing it despite those around her telling her not or that she shouldn't? That she is wearing this strictly because she believes she should out of a firm and rational, religious, political and cultural conviction? Thoughts? Just curious due to a convo me and one of my new friends had.

If you forced her to wear it, then you would be a sexist. If you forced her to take it off you would also be a sexist. She is entitled to make her own choices and regardless of what the public thinks if she wants to wear a hijab in the west and no one's forcing her: more power to her.

[freya4]

Women, and really everybody, are free to make their own choices as to how to dress. If they want to walk around in their underwear, fine. If they want to walk around in a burka, that's also fine as long as they are choosing to do out of their own free will. However, the reasons for why women in Islam are encouraged to wear the hijab are sexist. I don't understand why it's acceptable for men to dress as they please, while women are expected to dress modestly. It indicates a fear of female sexuality. In fact, not only is it sexist against women, but also against men, since it assumes them to be lustful, sex-hungry creatures who are unable to control their own desires.

[Hiero]

In regards to the debate around the hijab people need to distinguish between femininity, patriarchy and sexism. I would say femininity is things women do to express a gender identity, patriarchy is a hierarchical gendered institution and sexism is the opinions and actions that uphold patriachy. Being a gendered women encompases all three in a triangle, one thing that a women does may not be a result or reinforcing of the other two, or doing one thing encompases all of three, for instance the statement "women are feeble, so can only do half the amount of work as a male so should be paid less". Just reverse everything for the gendered male, for genderqueer it is a play and challenge on all three points of the triangle.

The free will concept in the debate detracts the focus away from thoose three concepts. Women do things to be express femininity against or to accompany as it's duel opposite masculinity, and these things may not be sexist or reinfore patriachy (at least it may not be a cornerstone of upholding the two). A women in the west may through her free choice choose to wear the hijab to express gender identity as an extension of a master identity (Islam). However her choice of free will does not disolve the other two concepts, patriarchy or sexism. That ones action through free will does not null and void the existance of the structural regime and the ideological superstructure.

So it can be both ways, women may choose to wear the hijab by free will, but it does not mean the hijab does not exist in a sexist and patriarchal system. Just the same as a black man may choose to wear a nose around his head as a joke would not null and void the real racism in American society.

Throughout history women (among slaves, children and workers) have been used for the symbolism of the status masters/husbands/groups of men . In this debate often women are talked about, not neccassarily enaged with. The point is to use women as the symbolic difference between two imagined cultures, the West and the East. West as liberal, superior, free, non-sexist and the East as inferior, dominated, sexist. Then you simply reverse it for a conservative look at Western society, ironically shared by muslims and christran conservative, too liberal, women dress as sluts, women are not protected. That is why this debate has occured around the hijab, it is a symbolic debate that attempts to reforge large scale identities (west v east). It has never been about women's rights.

Women in the west for a long time wore clothes for the master, women were vicarious consumers of the master. They consumed to show the status of their master, especially in the upper classes. Here I am use old Europe as he starting point. There are still remanents in society, wether it is hijab or high heels. Some feminist will make the point that both are sexists, regardless of the existance of free will, that women dress for the male.

Just to clarify, my point is that we need to look at why these debates are happening, how people construct gender identities and the power involved and fall into the trap where women are used to (re) create imagined collective identities.

[Kamil]

Women, and really everybody, are free to make their own choices as to how to dress. If they want to walk around in their underwear, fine. If they want to walk around in a burka, that's also fine as long as they are choosing to do out of their own free will. However, the reasons for why women in Islam are encouraged to wear the hijab are sexist. I don't understand why it's acceptable for men to dress as they please, while women are expected to dress modestly. It indicates a fear of female sexuality. In fact, not only is it sexist against women, but also against men, since it assumes them to be lustful, sex-hungry creatures who are unable to control their own desires.

There are very definite rules in Islam on how men should dress, men are forbidden to wear gold and certain jewellry among them (cant recall the others, but there are many).

I would not say that the REASONS for why women in Islam wear hijab are sexist, in theory it is to ensure that they are treated for who they are and not simply viewed as sexual objects (i.e. prevent them from being commodified). It is actually based in a negative perception men.
By your own admittance, it rather names fear of male sexuality as its motive "assuming them to be lustful, sex-hungry". The implications of this are that males are the intrinsicly more animalistic of the two. Remembering the savagely patriarchial landscape of ancient arabia (still is yes i know), the REASONS in Islam were threatening and progressive. Most of Muhammads early followers were the young and poor of the slums in the capital Mecca. The ruling caste of wealthy merchants were the ones who strove to put down Islam. But I digress.....

There's always a sad unbrakeably barrier between theory and practice isn't there? In the end it plays out like apartheid in South Africa: remember how they said all the control measures were "for their own good"? It gets twisted in the worst way, and the very ideas that are supposed to entail freedom are used to enslave. The muslim world today is very orwellian. Its freedom as in free to choose out of your own volition what we have declared good FOR you. The same thing happens in the US with nightmarish beauracratic institutions draped in hypocritical banners of service to the people (police, bourgeois school systems ect.)

[Desperado]

As said, the reasons for wearing a hijab might be anti-sexist (that it allows a woman to avoid being glared at) or explicitly/implicitly sexist (that a woman is pressured to by patriarchy). Or, as yet unmentioned, it could be fairly irrelevant - simply a fragment of culture completely untied to patriarchy other than the fact it represents a gender divide (as do hair styles etc.). The mainstream criticism as Hiero said of it of course has nothing to do with sexism but rather a xenophobic and awfully hypocritical "West has moral high ground". This in itself raises a fourth reason behind wearing the hijab (especially in the West) without necessary association to sexism - as a symbol in defiance of Western chauvinism (I say not Islamophobia because the hijab is cultural, not simply religious) and pride in culture.

Our main problem is that these reasons are naturally mixed and confused. Our best action is simply to expose the Western demagogic hypocrisies on the issue, and focus on women's rights more generally when the situation is clear cut.

[Dr Mindbender]

I once had a girlfriend from a Muslim background. She had turned secular though.

Unless you yourself were a muslim, and this is your wife, I would find this scenario extremely unlikely because orthodox muslim women generally avoid scenarios where they would be alone with men outside marriage. Especially non muslim men.

[freya4]

There are very definite rules in Islam on how men should dress, men are forbidden to wear gold and certain jewellry among them (cant recall the others, but there are many).

I would not say that the REASONS for why women in Islam wear hijab are sexist, in theory it is to ensure that they are treated for who they are and not simply viewed as sexual objects (i.e. prevent them from being commodified). It is actually based in a negative perception men.
By your own admittance, it rather names fear of male sexuality as its motive "assuming them to be lustful, sex-hungry". The implications of this are that males are the intrinsicly more animalistic of the two. Remembering the savagely patriarchial landscape of ancient arabia (still is yes i know), the REASONS in Islam were threatening and progressive. Most of Muhammads early followers were the young and poor of the slums in the capital Mecca. The ruling caste of wealthy merchants were the ones who strove to put down Islam. But I digress.....
Yes, I do recognize that men are obliged to some form of modesty in both dress and behavior, but their rules (no gold, covering navel to knees) are much more lenient. A man can walk around with just a loincloth wrapped around his waist, while women must cover everything but her hands and face. It just seems like the fact than women too have sexual desires, sometimes even as strong as men, is being ignored. Besides, even if the intentions of the hijab are to protect women, that's still sexist. Who's to say women need protection? It is true that many women might choose to cover themselves for these reasons, but Islam claims it is compulsory, which in my view is dangerous. It's just as bad as forcing women to wear bikinis all the time. It reduces them to objects that only have one purpose. It is the responsibility of the man, regardless of whether a woman is wearing a mini skirt or a burka, to treat women with respect. Only then, I think, will the problem of rape and sexual harassment start to disappear. However, it is not only the Islamic world that has a problem with sexism. Women in the west are objectified as well, but in a different way.

[Kamil]

It is true that many women might choose to cover themselves for these reasons, but Islam claims it is compulsory, which in my view is dangerous. It's just as bad as forcing women to wear bikinis all the time. It reduces them to objects that only have one purpose. It is the responsibility of the man, regardless of whether a woman is wearing a mini skirt or a burka, to treat women with respect

I couldn't agree with you more, I just wanted to point out, as someone who grew up in a very strict muslim househould, the theory behind it is the opposite of its practice. Something we are all very familiar with in the Socialist movement. Its alot like those abortion laws that they have in the midwest now? u know what i mean

[Mind_Zenith]

I actually knew a Moroccan woman who was completely atheist, but wore a Hijab (or something similar) as a sign of cultural heritage, so I consider the Hijab more a fashion piece than anything else. A lot of people are inclined to say that just wearing the Hijab is a sign of a woman's oppression, even if it isn't considered so by the woman wearing it; it's considered a symbol of anti-female cultural mores. But, so is the western idea of marriage: it used to be a system of the woman's submission, and indeed some people still consider it as this today.

So, short answer: no. But if you said something sexist or treated her in such ways, then I would consider you a sexist while not taking the Hijab into account.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I would totally rock a hijab on top while wearing a mini skirt with a garterbelt and thy-highs with hooker boots and be super ironic. Covering up on one half just to be super revealing on the other, gotta love it!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That might not be the reason she's wearing it, though. In public women get "checked out" a lot by men and I can imagine that being hidden from the male gaze might be kind of liberating.

Wearing the hijab might be her response to male power.

Nope, it just makes me curious about what's underneath, and why they feel the need to conceal it.