51st state: thirteen conservative counties may look into separating from California

[Le Socialiste]

51st state: thirteen conservative counties may look into separating from their blue state.



http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/0711_51st/10433692-1-eng-US/0711_51st_full_380.jpg (http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/0711_51st/10433692-1-eng-US/0711_51st_full_600.jpg)


51st state unlikely: Republican Jeff Stone is asking 13 conservative counties in Southern California to consider separating from the blue state. Gov. Jerry Brown's office calls the idea "a supremely ridiculous waste of everybody's time."
Lucy Nicholson/Reuters/File

By Associated Press (http://www.csmonitor.com/About/Contact-Us-Feedback) / July 11, 2011
Thirteen mostly conservative California (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/California) counties would break away to create a 51st state known as South California under a proposal by an elected official that would have to clear major hurdles to succeed.


Republican Jeff Stone (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Jeff+Stone) has asked fellow members of the Riverside County (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Riverside+County) Board of Supervisors to support a motion to bring together officials from the 13 counties to discuss the idea.
A vote on the proposed meeting is scheduled for Tuesday.

Stone said California is too big to govern, a situation that has led the state to raid local government coffers because of runaway spending. He knows it will be a challenge to create another state but doesn't believe it's an impossible task.
"We are sending a message," Stone told the Los Angeles Times (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Los+Angeles+Times).
The effort marks the latest in scores of secession movements in California dating back to the 1850s that aimed to cleave the state and split counties and cities.
Even if leaders from the 13 counties got serious about secession, the U.S. Constitution says no new state can be formed without the consent of Congress and the state Legislature.
An e-mail message left by The Associated Press (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/The+Associated+Press) for Stone's chief of staff, Verne Lauritzen (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Verne+Lauritzen), was not immediately returned.
Gil Duran, a spokesman for California Gov. Jerry Brown (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Jerry+Brown), said Stone's proposal is "a supremely ridiculous waste of everybody's time."
"If you want to live in a Republican state with very conservative right-wing laws, then there's a place called Arizona (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Arizona)," Duran told the newspaper.
Stone's version of South California would not include Los Angeles County (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Los+Angeles+County). Instead, it would encompass coastal Orange and San Diego (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/San+Diego) counties, and more sparsely populated, inland areas such as Fresno (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Fresno), Imperial, Inyo, Kern, Kings, Madera (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Madera), Mariposa (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Mariposa), Mono, Riverside, San Bernardino (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/San+Bernardino) and Tulare (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Tulare) counties.
Combined, those counties have about 13 million people.
Stone also proposed that South California would have a part-time Legislature with no term limits as well as a newly built capitol building.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/0711/51st-state-would-be-a-red-state

I highly doubt such an effort would succeed, but seriously? What's the point of this? :rolleyes:

[Jose Gracchus]

Its white flight taken to its logical conclusion; the central urban hubs can exist for the edification and profit of the wealthy while the servile classes that clean the skyscrapers can dwell in their barrios and get fucked without the benefit of belonging to the same tax system.

[Leftsolidarity]

Wow. Just wow.

[Comrade Crow]

As much as I want to stay here and make things better and shit, this is just, wow. America is going to hell, we're in a depression and people are concerned about what? Simply absurd.

[LegendZ]

"If you want to live in a Republican state with very conservative right-wing laws, then there's a place called Arizona," Duran told the newspaper.Rofl.:laugh:

[Le Socialiste]

As much as I want to stay here and make things better and shit, this is just, wow. America is going to hell, we're in a depression and people are concerned about what? Simply absurd.


My family and I are about two presidential elections away from "fleeing" the country.

[Revy]

I saw the map of the proposed state and it actually looks more like it should be called "East California" than South California. And South California is a stupid sounding name, but I guess you need a stupid name for a stupid idea.

[LegendZ]

I saw the map of the proposed state and it actually looks more like it should be called "East California" than South California. And South California is a stupid sounding name, but I guess you need a stupid name for a stupid idea.West Virginia? Where's East Virginia? Was it kidnapped?:cool:

[Tim Finnegan]

Do they have any basis for their proposed delineation that isn't blatantly partisan? I can see how you could bluff your way on a "too big too govern line", but the obvious solution to that is a line somewhere between Los Angeles and the Bay Area from the coast to the Nevada border (although correct me if I'm fouling up the population distribution), rather than something so obviously contrived. It's like they're not even trying to keep up a face of being "public servants".

[Le Socialiste]

It's like they're not even trying to keep up a face of being "public servants".

They gave up all appearances a long time ago.

[Tim Finnegan]

They gave up all appearances a long time ago.
True. Perhaps I should that they're not even pretending to try? :laugh:

[Reznov]

Like this is going to work.

Although its interesting seeing the rise of "Conservative" and centrist-right wing tendencies and thoughts starting to spring up.

[synthesis]

Fuck it, let 'em secede from the U.S. completely.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Its a conspiracy by the Flag industry to cash in on hundreds of millions of US Flags needing an extra star. Crafty swines...

[Kléber]

kill the teabaggers like it's 1861

[CornetJoyce]

"Split California" is a recurring theme, and it's not the only province where the theme recurs.

[Comrade Crow]

My family and I are about two presidential elections away from "fleeing" the country.

I'm already there mate, I'm already there.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Do they have any basis for their proposed delineation that isn't blatantly partisan? I can see how you could bluff your way on a "too big too govern line", but the obvious solution to that is a line somewhere between Los Angeles and the Bay Area from the coast to the Nevada border (although correct me if I'm fouling up the population distribution), rather than something so obviously contrived. It's like they're not even trying to keep up a face of being "public servants".

This is the first time I have ever heard of this particular division scheme and I don't think it's anything more than some stunt. There's no real social basis for this to my knowledge whereas schemes to separate northern California (above San Francisco) and combining with Southern Oregon (the so called State of Jefferson) probably does have something to do with northern logging industries being able to create a state where those industries interests, rather than agricultural interests and urban business interests, dominate. A sort of West Virgina (coal) or Alaska (oil) for logging.

As far as I know, Southern Californian land development (huge suburbs in cheap desert land), agriculture, and industry all rely on water from the northern part of the state - there are often conflicts between these interests and the dominant agricultural interests in the center of the state. I would think that if dry southern California separated, then getting water from Nevada or Other California would become more expensive.

In short I think it's probably just a partisan political stunt - maybe to put pressure on the state government not to even think about raising taxes. Like someone above said it's sort of an example of white flight and gerrymandering taken to a silly extreme.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Just wait until Northern California fraternity bros with their Nor*Cal tattoos and bumber stickers start demonstrating for Nor*Cal independence :laugh:

http://eightarc.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/norcal.jpg
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7PorPiMYNugiGpmkN0CPSeIPpvd2Mp hH8zZ6tqV3hiBMRCqPW&t=1
http://img.pistolshrimp.mobi/tattoos/originals/79229.jpg

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think sometime in the 1990s there was actually a ballot initiative to separate California into 3 states: southern and coastal with the division with the north somewhere between Sacramento and San Francisco (making S.F. the very top of "Southern California") and an eastern state taking the agricultural valleys and mountains and then the northern part which would be some agriculture and some logging but not much of either so this state would have become Oregon's guest house.

At any rate these kind of schemes are common in California but don't make much sense outside of possibly creating more industry specific state-zones which could then shape taxes and laws to suit the needs of different important industries.

[Agent Ducky]

What the FUCK? I should've expected this from these orange county conservative bastards. That's it, I'm fleeing to LA county....
Ok, I know this is never happening, but if it did IT WOULD DIRECTLY AFFECT ME >_<

[Weezer]

Hey! Leave me out of this. I don't want my county looking dumber than it already is. :(


What the FUCK? I should've expected this from these orange county conservative bastards. That's it, I'm fleeing to LA county....


We're not all conservative...:closedeyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

There was also the movement for "Jeffersonia" which involved the northern most CA counties and parts of oregon.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There was also the movement for "Jeffersonia" which involved the northern most CA counties and parts of oregon.

I would only support this if they made "Movin' On Up" their state anthem.

[Agent Ducky]

Hey! Leave me out of this. I don't want my county looking dumber than it already is. :(




We're not all conservative...:closedeyes:

I know, I know. I'm here in Orange County, and so are my parents. We're not conservative. Oh, and Laguna Beach. Laguna Beach somehow escaped all those people. XD I mean the multitude of conservative bastards in Orange County, not that all in Orange County are conservative bastards! But everyone around me seems to be like that, I swear, during the 2008 election the streets were lined with "YES ON 8" and "McCain Palin" lawn signs.

[Weezer]

Haha, they should just call us West Arizona if they do somehow manage to make a new state. It would make more sense than "South California".

[Rusty Shackleford]

or how about New Former Mexico?

[Coach Trotsky]

Fuck it, let 'em secede from the U.S. completely.

That's exactly what I was gonna say.
This secession idea might get mocked here, but we'll see it raised more and more in the USA, by all sides of the divides within this empire.
It's almost Balkanization time, and that will be a massive window of OPPORTUNITY for revolutionary socialists in North America.
Hippie liberal-Left utopians clinging to their Scars and Stripes flag can cry all they want to and try to cling to this empire and their Hollywood liberal dreams...revolutionary socialists will ACT to secure a future ruled by the workers and oppressed!

[Rusty Shackleford]

i dont think balkanization is imminent. its like that one russian guy saying that by 2010 the US would fall apart into 5 republics dominated by various other world powers.

[Coach Trotsky]

i dont think balkanization is imminent. its like that one russian guy saying that by 2010 the US would fall apart into 5 republics dominated by various other world powers.

Sooner or later, the oppressed neocolonial nations and the oppressor nation in the US empire will break apart. Sorry, but the whole "can't we all just get along' thing ain't gonna be the way most of us see it.

Right now, you are seeing mostly "oppressor nation" succession movements rearing their head, because the Democratic Party has basically bribed and sucked in the minority neocolonial nations' sellout bureaucrats. But this will change. There are already some Blacks who are looking to break from the Democratic Party to form their own Black People's Party, since they feel they're not getting sufficient representation from the Dems. I don't know much about the details of the politics of the people trying to form this Black People's Party. But I expect more of this, in all the internal neocolonial nations, and I even think we will see anti-USA left-wing nationalism develop among some Euroethnic workers.

[Jose Gracchus]

There's such a thing as "NorCal fraternity dudes"? :eek:


Sooner or later, the oppressed neocolonial nations and the oppressor nation in the US empire will break apart. Sorry, but the whole "can't we all just get along' thing ain't gonna be the way most of us see it.

Right now, you are seeing mostly "oppressor nation" succession movements rearing their head, because the Democratic Party has basically bribed and sucked in the minority neocolonial nations' sellout bureaucrats. But this will change. There are already some Blacks who are looking to break from the Democratic Party to form their own Black People's Party, since they feel they're not getting sufficient representation from the Dems. I don't know much about the details of the politics of the people trying to form this Black People's Party. But I expect more of this, in all the internal neocolonial nations, and I even think we will see anti-USA left-wing nationalism develop among some Euroethnic workers.

With this logic, you'd expect that the UK would long have fissioned along the lines of oppressed Gaelic peoples and the endless Crown dependencies. No such luck, and the British Empire is on decade seven since its terminal decline from world hegemony.

[Shropshire Socialist]

Like this is going to work.

Although its interesting seeing the rise of "Conservative" and centrist-right wing tendencies and thoughts starting to spring up.

Agreed. Some of the Bible Belt states have been itching to break away since they lost the American Civil War. This is not different. Doomed to failure.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sooner or later, the oppressed neocolonial nations and the oppressor nation in the US empire will break apart. Sorry, but the whole "can't we all just get along' thing ain't gonna be the way most of us see it.

Right now, you are seeing mostly "oppressor nation" succession movements rearing their head, because the Democratic Party has basically bribed and sucked in the minority neocolonial nations' sellout bureaucrats. But this will change. There are already some Blacks who are looking to break from the Democratic Party to form their own Black People's Party, since they feel they're not getting sufficient representation from the Dems. I don't know much about the details of the politics of the people trying to form this Black People's Party. But I expect more of this, in all the internal neocolonial nations, and I even think we will see anti-USA left-wing nationalism develop among some Euroethnic workers.

I don't see a breakup coming either from above or below. Among capitalists there hasn't been a serious divide probably since the civil rights era and the rural southern elite lost the battle to preserve it's rule of the south and a segregationist racial status quo. The federal government, as representative of the national capitalist class initially supported ending segregation because it was an antiquated policy that made the US look bad as "leader of the 'free' world" and the black movement threatening stability in the south whose economy had just begun (after WWII) to become a more regular part of the modern capitalist system (sharecropping cotton had dominated the economy before the war, manufacturing after).

I that didn't result in civil war but it definately did cause splits among the US ruling class with the southern elites rebelling, pulling out of the Democratic party and even challenging federal authority. I don't see any real splits of this magnitude... I think maybe manufacturing and fiance interests have been at odds somewhat with the recession but they need each-other whereas the southern urban capitalists didn't need the old rural southern system (which responded with a brutal fight to maintain dominance - including terrorism). So anyway, I don't see any splits at the top that would cause separation.

As for movements of oppressed nationalities in the US... well while the US is certainty heavily and informally segregated within cities I don't think there really could be something like a "black belt" rebellion for autonomous rule. Unless there was a rebellion of native Americans, I really don't think oppressed groups in the US are seeking to form autonomous regions like, say, the Zapatistas. So I also don't see any movement for breaking off coming from below at this point.

It could happen if there is a severe crisis - I think maybe it would happen from above rather than from below because as segregated as the working class is, it is also not generally regionally segregated - cities like Chicago have a huge Latino population, for example, but not within the entire state, so it would be hard to imagine anyone thinking that secession is a viable option.

[danyboy27]

a group of folkks in arizona, democrats want to do the same thing!!!

[praxis1966]

Apart from the stellar points already raised by Jimmy Higgins on the issue, I'd just like to add some of my own observances. Granted I live in Cali, but I haven't been here that long so occasionally these regional antagonisms are lost on me. When they are I have to rely on other Californians to put things into perspective.

Having talked to some of those folks, mostly the attitude is, "So long, and take your shitty ass Prop 8 with you." Others have said things like, "Yeah, good luck getting any water out of us now, assholes." Personally, I think the entire thing is race baiting. If you look at the way the lines are drawn, the counties in the proposed new state are overwhelmingly white and poor. The inclusion of Orange County was a deliberate ploy to make it seem as if bourgeois white people and working class whites in those areas have something in common. They don't. It's a divide and conquer tactic aimed at keeping working class whites (who tend to be conservative by and large in the US) in an "us versus them" mentality when it comes to the coastal liberals and working class minorities.

One last edit: If you wanna know which state I really think is the likeliest to secede, that would have to be Alaska.

[OhYesIdid]

As an aside, the freaky-looking peninsula to the northwest of Mexico (and sout of Califronia) is already known as South California (It's actually two states: North South California and South South California. Nope, I couldn't make this up). So hooray for the coming confusion, I guess.

[Jose Gracchus]

No way, Alaska receives by far the most federal spending relative to the tax receipts it returns. Much of its economy consists entirely of defense spending and extraction by oil majors based in CONUS.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Looks like a political ploy to me. This sort of thing continually pops up in the U.S..

"On March 28, 2008 Suffolk County, New York Comptroller Joseph Sawicki and Keith Durgan proposed a plan that would make Long Island (specifically, Nassau and Suffolk counties) the 51st state of the United States of America. Sawicki says that all the Long Island taxpayers' money would stay on Long Island, rather than the funds being dispersed all over the entire state of New York. The state of Long Island would include over 2.7 million people." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island

"Over the latter half of the 20th century (and reportedly as far back as 1889), the counties of Eastern Washington have occasionally raised the possibility of splitting largely conservative and rural Eastern Washington (and sometimes the Idaho Panhandle) away from urban and liberal Western Washington. As recently as 2005, this has been officially proposed in the state legislature, amid the fallout of the 2004 governor's election."

Here are dozens more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_secession_proposals

If you'll notice it's usually about rich areas wanting to free themselves of the "burden" of having their tax dollars used in poorer areas. The politics overlay and correspond to that. What's not mentioned is in a lot of these cases the richer people in these areas make their money in the poor urban areas they don't want to "support," then go home to their suburban mansions to sleep.

In reality, this tends to be more about posturing than anything else in most cases. It allows those making the proposals to talk about their willingness to "fight for their constituents," etc.

The extreme version of this looks like the recent push for "autonomy" in Bolivia's Santa Cruz department, the wealthiest in the country.

[praxis1966]

No way, Alaska receives by far the most federal spending relative to the tax receipts it returns. Much of its economy consists entirely of defense spending and extraction by oil majors based in CONUS.

Fair enough... I was just sort of thinking out loud with that one because it seemed to be the state with the largest and most well organized secessionist movement... Not that the people involved in it or anything have any contact with reality, lol.

[Red Commissar]

I think sometime in the 1990s there was actually a ballot initiative to separate California into 3 states: southern and coastal with the division with the north somewhere between Sacramento and San Francisco (making S.F. the very top of "Southern California") and an eastern state taking the agricultural valleys and mountains and then the northern part which would be some agriculture and some logging but not much of either so this state would have become Oregon's guest house.

At any rate these kind of schemes are common in California but don't make much sense outside of possibly creating more industry specific state-zones which could then shape taxes and laws to suit the needs of different important industries.

LA Times says that there have already been well over 220 similar proposals since the foundation of the state (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-south-california-20110711,0,2846870.story).

But to me honestly it's just a political stunt. Just like what Governor Perry did when he threatened to have Texas secede from the United States itself after the "Stimulus Package" was passed. This guy proposing it is just looking for a way to get his name out there for some stupid political ambition he has. What better way to do so than getting the attention of some national news agencies?

[Shropshire Socialist]

Someone has suggested they call it the "state of Denial", with a capital of "Lunacy".

Hence:

"what state are you from?"
"state of denial"
"and whereabouts from that state?"
"the capital city of lunacy" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[KurtFF8]

As much as I want to stay here and make things better and shit, this is just, wow. America is going to hell, we're in a depression and people are concerned about what? Simply absurd.


My family and I are about two presidential elections away from "fleeing" the country.

So much for the Left being a force of resistance :rolleyes:

[syndicat]

proposals to split California come and go every so often. There is a group of rural counties in the far north of the state that want to form the state of "Jefferson".

the first proposal to split California was in 1859. Congress actually passed a law to split California at the Tehachapi Mountains -- the only split that would actually make sense...and the southern state was to be called "Columbia." But that wasn't implemented because of the civil war. The federal government was afraid southern California would join the Confederacy since much of the white population in southern California at that time sympathized with the confederacy. The white English speaking population in southern California at that time were still a minority as they were outnumbered by the Spanish speaking and Indian populations.

proposals for a 51st state that have gained more support have been the effort to make DC a state (which was approved in a referendum in that city i believe) and the Republican equivalents in Puerto Rico also would like to make Puerto Rico a state (but they're a minority there).

[praxis1966]

Yeah, DC is the only place that really makes any sense in terms of a 51st state. AFAIK, they're the ones with the largest drive to become one and it's the only place in the contiguous 48 without a voting member of Congress. Apart from that, DC also has a larger population than Wyoming by roughly 30,000 people which kind of nullifies any arguments concerning the fact that they have yet to reach the 600k mark that's been used for admission to the union in the past (they're only about 1,000 people shy of that mark as well according to the 2010 census any damned way).

The rest of the various territories and commonwealths (Northern Marianas, Samoa, PR, etc) ought to be able to hold an internal referendum and get it sorted once and for all... I kind of hate the idea of colonial holdovers...

EDIT: Assuming of course you accept the whole notion of countries to begin with, lol.

[ar734]

Fine. Let Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, Miami, New Orleans, Houston, and San Francisco declare themselves separate states.

[Martin Blank]

Sigh! I feel like James Petigru's comment on South Carolina when it seceded in 1860 fit best: "too small for a republic, and too large for an insane asylum"

[KurtFF8]

Yeah, DC is the only place that really makes any sense in terms of a 51st state. AFAIK, they're the ones with the largest drive to become one and it's the only place in the contiguous 48 without a voting member of Congress. Apart from that, DC also has a larger population than Wyoming by roughly 30,000 people which kind of nullifies any arguments concerning the fact that they have yet to reach the 600k mark that's been used for admission to the union in the past (they're only about 1,000 people shy of that mark as well according to the 2010 census any damned way).

The rest of the various territories and commonwealths (Northern Marianas, Samoa, PR, etc) ought to be able to hold an internal referendum and get it sorted once and for all... I kind of hate the idea of colonial holdovers...

EDIT: Assuming of course you accept the whole notion of countries to begin with, lol.

I agree, the only state that I can think of off the top of my head is for DC.

Their license plates even say "Taxation without representation"

[Jose Gracchus]

They couldn't even elect their own municipal authorities, but were totally dependent on Congress until the 60s or 70s, IIRC.

[praxis1966]

They couldn't even elect their own municipal authorities, but were totally dependent on Congress until the 60s or 70s, IIRC.

If you mean DC, yeah, that sounds about right. I remember sometime, probably in the early to mid-90s, watching a congressional debate televised on CSPAN (yeah, I'm that kind of nerd) on how much money to allocate the DC public school system... So even then they didn't have that much autonomy.

[Social-Murphy]

Yes, Wyoming is very uneventful. Where 99% of the state is Conservative and cows out number people and we only have one Represenative in Congress because they HAD to give us one because we lack the proper population. This state tend to be very pathetic.

[Ocean Seal]

Its white flight taken to its logical conclusion; the central urban hubs can exist for the edification and profit of the wealthy while the servile classes that clean the skyscrapers can dwell in their barrios and get fucked without the benefit of belonging to the same tax system.
I suppose that I'm in kind of an emotional state right now, but seriously sometimes this stuff just makes me want to break down. I know that this is minor compared to most of the other stuff going down, but I mean the bourgeoisie just seems to be having more victories than ever. And they're not even satisfied with what they have, they want more.