Italy next?!

[Melnitz]

Italy Evolves Into E.U.’s Next Weak Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/business/global/italy-evolves-into-eus-next-weak-link.html?hp)


In recent days, Italy has become Europe’s next weak link after Greece, Ireland and Portugal and Spain, harmed in particular by a power struggle between Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and his finance minister, Giulio Tremonti. The dispute threatens to turn the euro zone’s third-largest economy, after Germany and France, into one of its biggest liabilities.

[Tommy4ever]

Italy already has ludicrous amounts of debt and an inept political caste. Its already the most worrying chink in the EU's armour. The collapse of the Greek, or Irish or Portuguese and to a much lesser extent the Spanish economy aren't nearly as terrifying as the prospect of the Italian economy following the PIGS.

We'll see how this situation develops.

[Threetune]

Italy already has ludicrous amounts of debt and an inept political caste. Its already the most worrying chink in the EU's armour. The collapse of the Greek, or Irish or Portuguese and to a much lesser extent the Spanish economy aren't nearly as terrifying as the prospect of the Italian economy following the PIGS.

We'll see how this situation develops.

Do you have anything say about the revolutionary thing, y know like???anything?:confused:

[Tommy4ever]

Do you have anything say about the revolutionary thing, y know like???anything?:confused:

What?

[Threetune]

What?

Friend, how do you think it will go? Talk about it as it's going on. Stick the neck out mate! Give it some anal, it won't kill you.

Edit: 13/07/11
Tommyf4ever
I owe you an apology. I have only just clocked on to the Italy thread again and seen my mistake.
I was responding to your “We'll see how this situation develops.” remark, which I thought was a bit limp to say the least. However, It was meant to read:

“Friend, how do you think it will go? Talk about it as it's going on. Stick the neck out mate! Give it some analysis, it won't kill you.”

As serious as the subject is I haven’t stopped laughing for a full half hour.
I don’t know how it happened and am sorry for any confusion caused.

[Turinbaar]

Give it some anal, it won't kill you.

yeah, what?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Give it some anal, it won't kill you.
First: What!?

Second: Nomination for best political Argument of 2011.

Third: Italian Stocks are fucking sinking hard.

[Leftsolidarity]

I think it's time to implement that policy of ignoring threetune's posts.

I mean I love anal and all but I don't want to be horny while trying to have a political discussion.

[North Star]

Too bad the Italian left is in such a sorry state to take advantage of this...

[Comrade Crow]

Too bad the Italian left is in such a sorry state to take advantage of this...

This is what I'm saying, with the markets the way they are, the global depression that is facing America and European nations, we definately need to get on the ball. I would say the material conditions for revolution are slowly arriving. It seems things are getting back to they way they were in our hayday of the 20's and 30's.

[Le Socialiste]

The problem is the official "Left" is it's too deeply entrenched in the system of capitalistic bourgeois democracy/parliamentarism to actually contribute anything meaningful to the movement. Unless the people break with the old parties and organizations to self-organize along a revolutionary platform, independent of the state, they'll be easily suppressed. What's even more depressing is the fact that the old "Left" has been in bed with capitalism for so long it no longer has the willpower to effect change, more willing to undermine potential leftist movements in order to ensure their place at the political table. Things may seem to be like they were in the 20's and 30's, but if that's to be true we have even more things to worry about:

http://www.newrightausnz.com/images/nazis047.jpg

http://rt.com/files/politics/nationalist-movements-dpni-unite/march-russian-pitalev-nationalists-570.n.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/5/19/1242751185995/Jobbiks-Hungarian-Guard-a-001.jpg

Far-right groups have been on the rise as well, and unless the revolutionary left is better equiped to combat jingoist rhetoric, actions, and propaganda, we'll see what happened when the left failed in the 20's and 30's...

[Shropshire Socialist]

What happened to the Italian Communists? They used to be fairly strong pre Berlusconi iirc.

[nuisance]

from what i hear, the anarchos are still going pretty strong in italy. could be wrong though.

[JustMovement]

I dont think its that weak. yes the traditional rifondazione comunista and its 100 splits is, but there is a visible anarchist presence and a militant youth. the trade unions are also still pretty big. communist politics outside of communist parties.

[Tommy4ever]

What happened to the Italian Communists? They used to be fairly strong pre Berlusconi iirc.

Despite a worrying decline during the 1980s the PCI still won 26% of the vote (10 million votes) in 1987. It was still a viable mass movement.

After the fall of the USSR the PCI decided the gig was over (like so many communist parties around the world) and morphed into social democrats in the PDS. Communist dissidents formed the PRC (Communist Refoundation Party).

The PDS got just 16% of the vote in 1992, PRC got 5%.

Over the following years the PRC would grow, sometimes taking part in broad left coalitions and sometimes not with its vote moving between 5 and 10%. Even breaking the 2 million vote mark. There was also a smaller commie party getting around 2% of the vote. At this time the PDS vote fluctuated around 15-20% mark.

In an effort to make the Left wing parties competitive in 2007 they formed the 'Rainbow Left' - the two communist parties, greens and democratic socialists (not PDS) joined together. In 2008 they were mauled - they lost 2/3s of their combined 2006 vote. The Rainbow Left then died.

In 2009 the leftwing parties seemed to commit suicide. In the European Election there was an Anti-Cap list with a bunch of commie parties, a Trot party and another coalition with Greens, democratic socialists and that sort. 4% of the vote was necessary to win seats:

The Anti-Capitalists got 3.4%, The Trots 0.5% and the Greens and other assorted quasi-lefts 3.1%. So no one got any representation.

The Anti-Cap thing is now the Federation of the Left.

So, in conclusion. Italy's communist movement seems to have played a major role in its own destruction, as inspite of quite significant popular support the movement had withered away. We'll see if it can revivde itself. Afterall, a significant number of votes (if you include the quasi-lefts like Greens we're talking about pushing 2 million, if not then well over 1 million anyway for various communists) and still go to pretty far left groups and some of these parties have decent memberships (tens of thousands).

I think I went to far with this response. :blushing:

[scarletghoul]

http://rt.com/files/politics/nationalist-movements-dpni-unite/march-russian-pitalev-nationalists-570.n.jpg

is that... an oven glove ??

[Blake's Baby]

It's a mitten, I presume his mum won't let him have grown-up gloves.

[Shropshire Socialist]

Despite a worrying decline during the 1980s the PCI still won 26% of the vote (10 million votes) in 1987. It was still a viable mass movement.

After the fall of the USSR the PCI decided the gig was over (like so many communist parties around the world) and morphed into social democrats in the PDS. Communist dissidents formed the PRC (Communist Refoundation Party).

The PDS got just 16% of the vote in 1992, PRC got 5%.

Over the following years the PRC would grow, sometimes taking part in broad left coalitions and sometimes not with its vote moving between 5 and 10%. Even breaking the 2 million vote mark. There was also a smaller commie party getting around 2% of the vote. At this time the PDS vote fluctuated around 15-20% mark.

In an effort to make the Left wing parties competitive in 2007 they formed the 'Rainbow Left' - the two communist parties, greens and democratic socialists (not PDS) joined together. In 2008 they were mauled - they lost 2/3s of their combined 2006 vote. The Rainbow Left then died.

In 2009 the leftwing parties seemed to commit suicide. In the European Election there was an Anti-Cap list with a bunch of commie parties, a Trot party and another coalition with Greens, democratic socialists and that sort. 4% of the vote was necessary to win seats:

The Anti-Capitalists got 3.4%, The Trots 0.5% and the Greens and other assorted quasi-lefts 3.1%. So no one got any representation.

The Anti-Cap thing is now the Federation of the Left.

So, in conclusion. Italy's communist movement seems to have played a major role in its own destruction, as inspite of quite significant popular support the movement had withered away. We'll see if it can revivde itself. Afterall, a significant number of votes (if you include the quasi-lefts like Greens we're talking about pushing 2 million, if not then well over 1 million anyway for various communists) and still go to pretty far left groups and some of these parties have decent memberships (tens of thousands).

I think I went to far with this response. :blushing:

Thanks for the response! :)

[Shropshire Socialist]

It's a mitten, I presume his mum won't let him have grown-up gloves.

ROFL :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Tommy4ever]

It's a mitten, I presume his mum won't let him have grown-up gloves.

Fingered gloves are part of the Islamo-Jewish conspiracy to destroy the White Race.

Obvs

[Catma]

I think I went to far with this response. :blushing:

Not at all, at least 3 people appreciated it and probably many more lurkers. Thank you.

[Rainsborough]

http://rt.com/files/politics/nationalist-movements-dpni-unite/march-russian-pitalev-nationalists-570.n.jpg

"Today we bake, tomorrow we conquer the world!" :laugh:

[Die Neue Zeit]

Too bad the Italian left is in such a sorry state to take advantage of this...

Rifondazione's aiming for coalitionism via 2% vs. 4% thresholds for coalition parties and pure opposition parties, respectively, is partly to blame.


In the European Election there was an Anti-Cap list with a bunch of commie parties, a Trot party and another coalition with Greens, democratic socialists and that sort. 4% of the vote was necessary to win seats:

The Anti-Capitalists got 3.4%, The Trots 0.5% and the Greens and other assorted quasi-lefts 3.1%. So no one got any representation.

When was the threshold changed to 4%. I cited the electoral rules above. :confused:

[Mather]

An interesting article on Italy's economic and political problems in the Weekly Worker paper:

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004480

[Crux]

Italy (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5187)

’Black Friday’ shows Italian capitalism in crisis (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5187)

[a rebel]

I suppose their prime minister spent all their money on a champagne and caviar pool for his orgy parties.

[KurtFF8]

Italy parliament prepares to pass austerity package (http://news.yahoo.com/italy-parliament-prepares-pass-austerity-package-105520587.html)



ROME (Reuters) - Italy's parliament was set on Friday to approve a 48 billion euro austerity package aimed at averting a full scale financial crisis but there were growing questions about the government's capacity for further reforms.
After what business daily Il Sole 24 Ore called an "absolute first," government and opposition parties have set aside differences to pass the austerity measures in a matter of days.
The government easily cleared a confidence vote in the lower house called to speed up the package on Friday and the chamber was expected to approve the mix of spending cuts and tax raising measures at around 6.00 p.m. (1600 GMT).
The rapid political accord helped calm the violent sell off of Italian assets at the start of the week. But in a sign of continuing market nerves, yields on Italian 10-year government bonds climbed to about 5.7 percent and spreads over benchmark German bonds rose above 300 points on Friday.
As market uncertainty continued, Italian media questioned the approach of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who has not made a public appearance since last week and who has made only one written statement in response to the market panic.
Instead it has been left to President Giorgio Napolitano, an 86 year-old former communist, to shepherd government and opposition parties to an accord which should ensure the government's austerity package is passed.
"The noisy silence of the great communicator," Italy's leading daily newspaper, Corriere della Sera, commented in a front-page editorial.
"Perhaps we will read a long interview from him somewhere today but for the moment, it is a worrying silence," it said.
After several days in which he has not been seen in public, Berlusconi came to parliament for the vote where he met Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti and Umberto Bossi, head of his Northern League coalition allies.
Speaking to supporters in the chamber, he rubbed the back of his neck and grimaced several times as if describing an episode of physical discomfort. One deputy quoted Berlusconi as saying he had slipped in his bath and hit his head.
Apart from an uncharacteristically solemn statement on Tuesday, Berlusconi's last public remarks were in a newspaper interview in which he accused Economy Minister Giulio Tremonti of arrogance and said he was "not a team player."
TECHNICAL GOVERNMENT
The crisis appears to have strengthened Tremonti, a firm proponent of fiscal discipline widely seen as the best guarantor of financial stability, who has piloted the austerity package through to its expected final parliamentary approval.
Speculation has grown that Berlusconi, mired in scandal and fighting four separate trials on corruption and sex charges, may be forced to step down before his term ends in 2013, possibly making way for a so-called "technical government" which could steer Italy into calmer waters.
With a crushing debt burden equal to 120 percent of gross domestic product and chronically weak growth, which has held back efforts to cut back the debt, Italy faces a long, grinding battle to return to economic health.
In its monthly report for July, the Bank of Italy called for further action to consolidate public finances.
But there is uncertainty over the government's capacity to make sensitive reforms in areas such as labor markets to spur growth, and ratings agencies have pointed to doubts on reform implementation as grounds for questioning Italy's credit rating.
"This budget in a sense resumes what Italy's been doing over the past few years. It's good on fiscal consolidation but there is still more to do on the growth side," said Fabio Fois, an economist with Barclays Capital in London.
He said Italy's primary budget surplus, expected to reach 5.2 percent by 2014 would be a strong positive signal to markets but it would not be enough on its own.
"The primary surplus in 2013 and 2014 should help to strengthen the position of Italy, but Italy has to show something more on structural reform to boost real GDP growth," he said.
The opposition has repeated its regular calls for Berlusconi to resign and make way for a broadly based government of technocrats along the lines of the one led in 1995 by Lamberto Dini, a former senior official of the Bank of Italy.
The outlines of what could be such a government have already been seen in the unusually rapid response to the crisis shown by parliament, with opposition parties agreeing not to hinder the austerity package despite objections to many of its elements.
Deputies from both the ruling PDL party and the opposition center-left say that Napolitano, who as head of state usually stands above daily political affairs, has taken an unusually direct role in coordinating a response to the crisis.
"The Berlusconi government is in hiding but during these hours, it's obvious that there's another government in the country," said one deputy from the government side, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Berlusconi himself has always rejected any suggestion he may stand down before 2013 and has named Justice Minister Angelino Alfano as his preferred successor as center-right leader.
That has infuriated his coalition allies in the pro-devolution Northern League party who have made it clear they expect to have a big say in the future the center-right.
(Additional reporting by Paolo Biondi and Giuseppe Fonte; Editing by Timothy Heritage)


This will likely pass quite easily. Even in Greece where there was a mass movement against it, the package is now being implemented. A sad time for Southern Europe.

[Barry]

This is again a important development towards the crisis within capitalism, it ass is literally falling out lol. However I think that this can more important then even the 20's and 30's, the capitalist nations are struggleing to keep the eu afloat. With the large amount of national and personal debt that exists in most countries we are entering a new era of crisis. Italy is the weak link as its collapse will lead to the collapse of the European economy, its probably the final nail in the cofin

[Red Commissar]

Italy parliament prepares to pass austerity package (http://news.yahoo.com/italy-parliament-prepares-pass-austerity-package-105520587.html)




This will likely pass quite easily. Even in Greece where there was a mass movement against it, the package is now being implemented. A sad time for Southern Europe.

And to update, it did indeed pass. The Chamber of Deputies voted to approve it: 314 in favor, 280 against, and 2 abstentions from one source I'm reading, while the Senate voted 161-135 in favor. Different sites have different numbers but they seem to be bouncing around that.

I don't know the exact voting breakdown though, I'll have to look into it. But just looking at those numbers (these numbers though don't add up to the totals, so it seems not everyone was present in the parliament but it was enough to meet quorum), it would indicate that Berlusconi's people and the Lega Nord were able to put it through both houses on their own. The opposition for the most part though didn't do much beyond just voting against it, not a big surprise.