Utopian

[Leftsolidarity]

It's really annoying when people throw that at you in a debate and I can break it apart but that can take a long time to the length where it is pointless to do so. What is a good short argument to prove that Communism is not a utopian ideal?

[Weezer]

It's really annoying when people throw that at you in a debate and I can break it apart but that can take a long time to the length where it is pointless to do so. What is a good short argument to prove that Communism is not a utopian ideal?

In the Communist Manifesto, Marx rallied against the utopian socialists of his time. There's a whole section dedicated to arguing against utopian socialist ideals.

Socialism and Communism are realistic solutions to capitalism. They follow the pattern of history: The Lower class overthrows the Ruling Class. The merchant class(now bourgeoisie) overthrow the feudal class of Kings and such. The proletariat will do the same with the bourgeoisie.

[Tim Cornelis]

In the Communist Manifesto, Marx rallied against the utopian socialists of his time. There's a whole section dedicated to arguing against utopian socialist ideals.


That itself does not prove that Marx' communism is not utopic. "It is one thing to show a person that he is in error, it is another to put him in possession of the truth".

There are little tendencies of socialism all around. Linux, worker cooperatives, democratic communes (both international communities and EZLN's good government councils), other examples of participatory democracy, etc.

None of these constitute communism independently but taken together, connecting the dots, they are very close. This shows that communism is viable, although it is not ultimate proof of course.

[ZeroNowhere]

Socialism can be a utopian ideal.

[Jimmie Higgins]

It's really annoying when people throw that at you in a debate and I can break it apart but that can take a long time to the length where it is pointless to do so. What is a good short argument to prove that Communism is not a utopian ideal?

A quick and smarmy response would be: it's utopian to think that systems that would be willing to cause nuclear war rather than loose their ability to dictate policies to their "sphere of influence"; would rather see fascism than workers fighting for democracy; would rather dump staple crops or gamble with them than prevent starvation of millions; would rather destroy the environment and all life through climate change than loose profitable competitive edges in the short-term... could allow humanity to survive much longer.

But really, to answer this criticism, you have to establish what aspect of communism is utopian to them. For some people, they agree with the idea that socialism makes sense, but they think that the idea that workers could unite and work together in a collective struggle for liberation is "utopian". Other people might grant that workers have created movements that could fight for socialism, but that the concept of a classless and stateless society or a democratic society run by workers is impossible and "utopian". Pinpoint what aspects they think are an impossible dream and work from there. Most people will say socialism/communism is "utopian" simply because that is what they have always been told and so even if they think that the idea of a democratically run society sounds appealing, they never investigated because they've only heard people say, "It's a good theory, but doesn't work in practice".

[Tommy4ever]

The perfect Communist society is indeed an unattainable and utopian goal. But the idea is that the closer you get to that ultimate perfect the better your society will be. Mabye we won't be able to create our perfectly functioning, egalitarian, peaceful and rational society - but if we manage to secure control of the means of production for the workers, end economic exploitation and promote internationalism, then we will have greatly improved the world. There is nothing wrong with an ultimate goal is it drives you to improve the world.

[Black Sheep]

"Utopian" is an excuse argument, or a scare word, or just a superset naming other counter-arguments.

Imo, the best answer to that is "What exactly do you find utopian" / "What aspect of it causes it to be utopian"

As expected, the answer(s) will be either:
-Human nature argument - aka "humans are inherently greedy, etc
I've made a video about it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBOfzQDzf9g), and there are plenty of threads in RL covering it, just do a search

or

-People will never unite / never wake up
Which is historically false (+ even today there are many peoples' struggles going on), an appeal to ... despair and lack of imagination, an underestimation of peoples' collective power, and a presupposition ignoring economic reality (neo-liberalism, new economic crisis) and working/middle class hardships.

Plus,you can mention that countless systems/theories were considered utopian and were nevertheless true/implemented.So one has to consider the evidence and basis of each rather than his gut feeling, which tends to be full of shit.

In my experience, those are the components of mindlessly screaming "utopiaaaa"!

[RemoveYourChains]

It's really annoying when people throw that at you in a debate and I can break it apart but that can take a long time to the length where it is pointless to do so. What is a good short argument to prove that Communism is not a utopian ideal?

We know from recorded history that human beings have lived under a whole host of social arrangements. Immense (and sometimes rapid) changes in law and culture have occurred within a single lifetime, let alone over the course of generations.

Most arguments that communism is "utopian" rest upon an inability/unwillingness to see how the distance between the present order of things and a communist one could be bridged. After making clear what communism IS (and what it is not), I would simply inform such a doubter that "stranger things HAVE happened."

[Seresan]

Of they say "Utopian" to mean "optimistic", then I would gladly say that I am utopian. I say we should aim and plan for the best possible option, because any shortcomings would still be an improvement.

[Black Sheep]

Utopian means too optimistic to be true.
Optimism has nothing to do with it, feasibility and positive change to standard of living, do.