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Black Sheep
11th July 2011, 16:30
Okay i'm writing this due to this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/please-ban-me-t157819/index.html)thread, and because it's a super common case to young revolutionary leftists (commies and anarchists).
I'll try to cover most passions that often come up,that friends have told me, stuff i had to go through/still going through.
Also not sure if this belongs here or in MA&DIY.Anyway.

I'm a young commie and...

i)"My level of knowledge isn't good enough"
"(All)Other comrades seem to be experts"

-Noone's level of knowledge is high at something they're newbies at - so don't expect yours to be, and don't feel bad about it.You're not the communist superman.
The best way to improve it is to read a book or two, discuss with your comrades,try to absorb as much knowledge as you can.Learn to listen, ask as many questions as your conversation partner is willing to answer, critically question everything (not in a stupid way though). Verify what you're being told.
If there aren't any comrades in your area, well, internet and Revleft.com.

The expert comrades are great source of knowledge and material.Ask them ruthlessly,be the devil's advocate and learn from them.Don't worship them,but if they worth it,make them a role model for healthy competition.
Always critically receive what they tell you.Their shining communist overlod status may cloud your judgement.Veterans that arise to an implied leadership position in a supposedly leaderless organization is a very common scenario.


ii)"I lose all debates/conversations with cappies/other tendencies"

See (i).
-It's ok to lose debates and you will,many of them.Oh,yeah, you will be crushed like a soviet cockroach.
Even in the ones you lose though, you can still learn something and discover gaps and misconeptions in your understanding and knowledge of theory.
If smashing the capitalist zeitgeist was so easy, it would have been destroyed years ago.Remember,you're dealing with mindsets engineered to fit the current ethics and "allowed" political philosophies.It takes time and effort to take them apart, and they have a tendency of respawning.
So don't despair.Just advance your knowledge and carry on.

iii)"How can i debate better?"

See (i).
Be vigilant not to fall into traps and logical fallacies - either in your argumentation or missing the ones your opponent makes.Remember that capitalists rely on logical fallacies, loopholes, vaguely defined concepts and sentimental bullshit.Use iron fist logic but be calm, straightforward and direct.
If your opponent refers to something you aren't familiar with, say so, hear him/her out and check it later.It's dishonest and hypocritical to try to defend something you don't know much about,or know you don't understand well, just because it's supposed to be a part of your tendency (if you're a member of an old school platformist / democratic centralist organization , prepare for some hard times).Remember that your side isn't de facto correct.If you go down this path, then god save your critical thinking abilities...
It's ok to not know stuff , even if your asshole opponent thinks it's inexcusable(if so,ask him a question about the current political sustem / capitalist theory/economics/historical events and destroy his/her ass).

"Veterans theory masters",either communists or capitalists will try to appeal to their "brilliance" or status to justify claims (i.e. "i was in may 68","i've read the entire capital","i'm 80 years old", etc).Mostly they're full of shit, so approach the conversation as critically as any other.In my experience, extremely knowledgable people were hard to notice, meaning you didn't notice it until they gave an awesome response to your question :)

When discussing with an OIer, try your best to make him/her make one point at a time.Most conversations end out of frustration of trying to reply to 100 points,each of which require 2 minutes of arguing.Also note to him/her that a point has been made if he/she agrees with sth, and try to build on that.Most OIers tend to forget it, and repeat the debunked claim a few seconds after it's been debunked.

Also,don't be a dick,don't try to stick politics where it doesn't directly relate to, according of course to how well you know the person you're discussing with (i.e. "damn we have to wait X hours for the bus" -"WELL YEAH? IN SOVIET RUSSIA THEY HAD BUSES EVERY Y MINUTES HURR").
Keep in mind always that 'stereotypical asshole annoying communist' and try to steer clear of becoming that character.

If you find yourself at times not remembering stuff to respond to an OI question/ challenge, well,shit happens.It has happened to me countless times.As you become more experienced the answers will pop into your head automatically (because the questions are fairly common)
Also,don't forget that browsing revleft and discussion with comrades helps refresh your memory.


iv) "I like the idea of communism, but i'm not working class / i am relatively wealthy.

So? Kropotkin was a freaking prince, marx and engels were far from workers! You don't have to be a worker or impoverished to support the idea of emancipation of the oppressed, your human sense of solidarity to your fellow man,hostility to injustice can be enough.(note that you shouldn't expect the full trust of a revolutionary organization in that case and try to get in their shoes)
As long as you fon't own a buisiness and employ several workers,you're ok.


v)I am embarassed / afraid to defend communism

Understandable - communism is portrayed either as a monstrous authoritarian tyranny, a childish utopia, or as a lunatic "earth-lies-on-top-of-a-turtle" theory.
I myself as a teen when newspapers were brought up in a discussion i used to tell jokes like "Well, i buy "rizospastis" (the newspaper of the communist party of greece)!" and everyone laughed.
The fact is, that no matter how they resort to ridicule your person, make straw mans, or other techniques to escape arguing, if you've done your homework right, you'll be able to destroy every little assertion cappies make - and that shows.Counter their pathetic excuses with hard evidence and facts and refuse to drop to their level.
If you live in a country like the US,where anti-communist hysteria is sky high, you can draw parallels with other countries where leftist presence is stronger.Meaning the world doesn't end beyond your country's borders.


vi)I've been alienated by friends/family due to my political beliefs.

That sucks.Fix your priorities, no good comes from being a communist and disowned/homeless/friendless.If your politics get in the way of such important stuff in your life, slow down a bit.
If social and economic penalties are so severe that threaten your well-being,then keep communism to yourself,but keep studying and express yourself at a later and safer time.


vii)There are no comrades in my area.

Keep educating yourself.Internet is great.Situations change, and you may even move.
You can initiate a group with friends to engage in political action and/or activism.It doesn't need to apply 100% to your beliefs : action and discussion can bring about radicalization.


viii)I'm scared to speak in a political debate / discussion (like student assembly in college) out of fear of losing
I'm scared to engage in activism with my comrades out of fear of ridicule

See (i),(ii),(v)
Who doesn't?Thing is, postponing such activities for later dates when "your grasp of theory will be better" may go on forever.An observed phenomenon is that speaking in front of lots of people will in time eradicate your fear of doing so,which leads to either being a moron who spews out bullshit to crowds, or a fearless speaker who speaks his/her mind.Make sure you don't end up in the 1st case though.
As far as activism is concenrned, take courage from your comrades, and feel free to discuss your issues with them - they're bound to have useful advice and personal experiences that may be helpful.
Isolating yourself with your thoughts will only make you end up a couch revolutionary, and an 'internet communist'.Few levels are lower than this.(I know what i'm talking about, i am dangerously approaching that slimey pitfall)


ix)I don't know which tendency to side myself with
It's tough.In the beginning,you wont be able to determine which is right and which isn't, just as a person uneducated in physics, can't pick out the bullshit parts in "Quantum healing" books and miscellaneous new age woowoo.
The #1 mistake most people do (myself included) is saying "Well i'll firstly read 1,000,000 books to get a spherical view on all, and decide" : you"ll never accomplish that.If you have a basic understanding of core principles, go join an organization and in the meantime keep studying.Remember (i) about veterans and keep your head straight.Continue studying theory (not only your organization's theory: that's very important!), participate in rallies,propaganda and activism.Practice will refine theory and vice versa.
If the time comes when your views contradict the ones in your organization, discuss the matter with your comrades and if you want leave.
After some time, you"ll be able to laugh at organizations you once thought worthy, just from a line in their political program.
Since sectarianism is rampant in the revolutionary (and not only) left, bullshit and slander from one organization to another is an everyday fact, so the best bet is sadly your personal opinion.Study theory, political programs, strategies of each one, and observe their actions.

But: don't be a sectarian asshole.I said don't.Try to be objective, don't idolize your tendency/organization and be ready to accept its flaws without belittling them and maximizing the others' mistakes.


I can't think of anything else,so that's it for now :)

Jimmie Higgins
11th July 2011, 17:12
Fantastic work! I really think we need to do everything we can to be accommodating to younger or new radicals. Not only are they entering a political viewpoint that is dismissed by their teachers and ignored or ridiculed by "mainstream" politics, but they are also jumping into a whole lot of jargon and (often petty) inter-radical history. It would be intimidating enough if it wasn't ideas and activism actively hated by the most powerful people in the world.

Even admitting that "I'm intimidated" can be intimidating, so letting people know right off the bat that they don't have to be perfect* and all-knowing is very important.


*That's why I use such poor grammar and spelling in my posts. It's for the benefit of the youth of today ;P

RedMarxist
11th July 2011, 17:41
excellent thread man. I'm 17 and everything listed above was spot on!

I had this teacher who tried using Animal Farm as a way to explain his anti-communist beliefs/portray communism as evil, well if I had known half the stuff I do now I could have outright made him look like a fool!

Some things I wish I had said to him:

"Well, actually Orwell was speaking out against the Stalinist bureaucracy that had arisen in Russia at the time the book was written, and he was not against communism"

"well for starters, saying a nation is "communist" is false as it is not communist, according to Marx, until the state completely withers away after all classes are abolished. Technically the Soviet Union was, or claimed to be, in a transition period called Socialism."

"Well, your arguments about this book being anti-communist make no sense. the pigs clearly represent a new class, a new bureaucracy, The changed phrases on the barn wall side represent stalinist corruption of the ideals of the revolution. the farmer/pig trading represents the hypocritical nature of stalinism, as stalin himself sought to make deals with imperialists"

Manic Impressive
11th July 2011, 17:42
ix)I don't know which tendency to side myself with
It's tough.In the beginning,you wont be able to determine which is right and which isn't, just as a person uneducated in physics, can't pick out the bullshit parts in "Quantum healing" books and miscellaneous new age woowoo.
The #1 mistake most people do (myself included) is saying "Well i'll firstly read 1,000,000 books to get a spherical view on all, and decide" : you"ll never accomplish that.If you have a basic understanding of core principles, go join an organization and in the meantime keep studying.Remember (i) about veterans and keep your head straight.Continue studying theory (not only your organization's theory: that's very important!), participate in rallies,propaganda and activism.Practice will refine theory and vice versa.
If the time comes when your views contradict the ones in your organization, discuss the matter with your comrades and if you want leave.
After some time, you"ll be able to laugh at organizations you once thought worthy, just from a line in their political program.
Since sectarianism is rampant in the revolutionary (and not only) left, bullshit and slander from one organization to another is an everyday fact, so the best bet is sadly your personal opinion.Study theory, political programs, strategies of each one, and observe their actions.

But: don't be a sectarian asshole.I said don't.Try to be objective, don't idolize your tendency/organization and be ready to accept its flaws without belittling them and maximizing the others' mistakes.

I would say that's the wrong approach tbh. Don't just go and join any old party. Read Marx get a really good understanding of his work then and only then should you start thinking about whether your interpretation fits in with an existing tendency.
Way too many people join a party with strict sectarian lines who will only teach you their chosen path. I think this is due to people feeling that they need to fit in or be a part of something. You don't need to be taught fallacies and revision of Marx's work you need to figure it out for yourself so that you can separate the bs from the facts.
Also don't romanticise failed attempts at implementing communism, judge those attempts critically and refer back to Marx for why they went wrong.

Black Sheep
11th July 2011, 17:55
Way too many people join a party with strict sectarian lines who will only teach you their chosen path. I think this is due to people feeling that they need to fit in or be a part of something. You don't need to be taught fallacies and revision of Marx's work you need to figure it out for yourself so that you can separate the bs from the facts.
That's why i encourage criticism and studying tendencies other than the organization's line as well.
Do you have a better model to reach the tendencial truth other than that?
Sitting down and reading everything takes A LOT of time.
Also,you're asserting truth of marxism, and my post doesn't apply to marxism only, but to leftism in general (the revolutionary one).


Also don't romanticise failed attempts at implementing communism, judge those attempts critically and refer back to Marx for why they went wrong.
Well,that's your/your organization's view, one that others don't share.What's failed and what's not differs according to political program and tendency.
I'm not trying to promote any of that at the OPost.

Black Sheep
11th July 2011, 18:01
I had this teacher who tried using Animal Farm as a way to explain his anti-communist beliefs/portray communism as evil, well if I had known half the stuff I do now I could have outright made him look like a fool!Heh, the world is full of communists wishing in tears they were communists at school (myself included) to own their history/politics teachers, and full of atheists wishing the same to destroy their Religion teachers (at least in countries where the state religion is "taught" in schools...)

This is an excellent thing to shout to your (communist atheist) parents about..
Why didn't you tell me this!??:(

Manic Impressive
11th July 2011, 18:14
That's why i encourage criticism and studying tendencies other than the organization's line as well.
Do you have a better model to reach the tendencial truth other than that?
What other than joining any party that will take you just because it's convenient. Yes, Yes I do. As I said understand Marxism and see if it applies to any of the existing tendencies. Don't jump in and become a Trotskyist because they have the biggest party and don't join a Leninist party because you want to shock people with a banner of Stalin. I think way too many people do this already and it damages the movement as a whole which is why I am disagreeing with you.


Sitting down and reading everything takes A LOT of time.
It's better to make an informed choice than to waste even more time in a crap party, as I did.


Also,you're asserting truth of marxism, and my post doesn't apply to marxism only, but to leftism in general (the revolutionary one).
Fair enough, I apologise if I offended any anarchists.
But you did call the thread "passion of a young commie" and not socialist, if it had been the latter my statement might have been different.


Well,that's your/your organization's view, one that others don't share.What's failed and what's not differs according to political program and tendency.
I'm not trying to promote any of that at the OPost.
I think it's a fact that communism has never been implemented. Seriously are there any parties who actually say that communism has existed? If not then they have been failed attempts.

Tommy4ever
11th July 2011, 18:31
I'm 18 and your post was very good. I think I have fallen into the trap of going to read 10,000 books (although I've pretty successful so far :p) rather than getting properly active.

I don't like to actually go out and tell people I am a communist (although others seem to take joy in doing so) as it almost immediately makes people hostile and determined to debate with you, even when you don't want to. If you talk about a communist viewpoint on something without giving it the 'Filthy Red' label people tend to be more willing to accept it.

All the tiny sects is a bit of a worry for getting active, especially as I'm leaving my home city at the end of the Summer I've convinced myself to basically delay joining a group until I arrive at Uni in September. But, really that might just be a bit of an excuse.

Sixiang
11th July 2011, 18:36
Finally. Please sticky this! We've all been there, I think. I cannot stress the importance of criticism, self-criticism, study, and learning from practice to beginners/learners enough. :thumbup: to Black Sheep.

Quail
11th July 2011, 20:25
Good thread. I'm 20, so quite young, and although I can defend my views well to my peers, I find it difficult to defend them to older people, such as my parents, who don't even make an effort to listen to me and understand but still come out with bullshit "arguments" (seriously, the other night they thought they'd shattered my ideology with "but as soon as you organise you can't be anarchists herp-a-derp").

PhoenixAsh
11th July 2011, 20:43
I think that is a very good post. There is something I like to add...or...maybe highlight.

You do not need to convince people to become communist over night. As you said people are very indoctrinated and the social structures and rules are engrained into them and they will follow those ways of thinking sometimes without critically assessing them.

What is of imense and not to be underestimated value is to get people to think. Usually that is the first step. You do not have to win a debate...the fact that you have a debate, discussion or conversation is often enough to get people to critically assess their positions or give them new information which they previously did not recognize.

Even if they disagree with you or they keep being entrenched in their position initially...more often than not people do change their position over time due to those kinds of moments and the new insights, information or arguments they create.



If you think it is counter productive or unhelpful or just plain "dangerous" to mention communism/anarchism....then do not. You do not have to mention your position is Marxist/Communist/Socialist/anarchist (or whatever) to have a debate and still get people to accept a certain position. Do not unnecessarilly classify or label your self and your arguments if there is no need or if it is unhelpful.

The Idler
11th July 2011, 20:47
Lets not get carried away and sticky this, these are basically obvious points. A good beginners reading list would be pretty useful.

Oxford University Press
Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction by Colin Ward
Communism: A Very Short Introduction by Leslie Holmes
Socialism: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Newman
Marx: A Very Short Introduction by Peter Singer
Engels: A Very Short Introduction by Terrell Harver

Going to few meetings of different organisations (without joining them) basically solves a lot of these problems just as long as you don't uncritically swallow the party line whole. Also, Engels owned a factory and exploited workers, but he was still a revolutionary.

The Man
11th July 2011, 20:53
I'm 15 years old, So I thought that this was a fantastic post.. Good job :thumbup1: I go up against the world it seems in school during history class, and my Communism course. The teacher thinks Communism is the idea of the late, revisionist Soviet Union (Which is totally false). My teachers think I am completely extremist as I wish to abolish Religion, Capitalism, and Nationalism. But most of my classmates are sometimes interested in what I have to say, Which I guess is good :).

It seems like all of my teachers view Socialist leaders as horrible people, that just want to purge people they don't like. When in reality, you have to look at the type of society the early Soviet Union was in a materialist point of view: They were up against the world, They had to fight off Imperialism, the threat of Counter-Revolutionaries within the Government, and not to mention, they almost got completely invaded.

Agent Ducky
11th July 2011, 21:00
I'm 15 and this was really inspiring. You got everything spot-on and it was really useful. Super awesome job, XD. Because sometimes you really do feel like you don't know shit....

Black Sheep
11th July 2011, 21:10
What other than joining any party that will take you just because it's convenient. Yes, Yes I do. As I said understand Marxism and see if it applies to any of the existing tendencies. Don't jump in and become a Trotskyist because they have the biggest party and don't join a Leninist party because you want to shock people with a banner of Stalin. I think way too many people do this already and it damages the movement as a whole which is why I am disagreeing with you.
I am presupposing that the hypothetical young commie isn't a dumbass wannabe cool rebel, and will pick whichever organization thinks fits best his/her beliefs, according to the basic stuff read.


It's better to make an informed choice than to waste even more time in a crap party, as I did.
Well, maybe,maybe not.
I wasted a lot of time in a crap party, but i learned a huge amount of stuff.
If i hadn't joined that party, today i would be apolitical.
Again, i mention "if you know the core principles".


Fair enough, I apologise if I offended any anarchists.
But you did call the thread "passion of a young commie" and not socialist, if it had been the latter my statement might have been different.
We're in tears.
I think it's well established that "commie" = revolutionary leftist in revleft lingo.


I think it's a fact that communism has never been implemented. Seriously are there any parties who actually say that communism has existed? If not then they have been failed attempts.
I meant past attempts to establish communism are viewed by worthwhile and successful tries by some, horrendous monstrosities by others.
Wasn't that obvious?

RedMarxist
11th July 2011, 21:13
Unfortunately I have to learn "advanced" American History. How many times will they ram this patriotic shit in!

Every opportunity get in that class, I am going to raise serious questions about our founding fathers, democracy, and dare I say it revolution

Revolution = terrorism according to India, the Philippines and even our own government? Then i guess our founding fathers were terrorists and the continental army was an extremist army.

I'd just like to point out that if the continental army lost the war, which was very likely early on, then our founding fathers would have been hung. They would have been looked down upon as "terrorists" and troublemakers in future history. And we'd be a dominion of the British Empire.

If Guerrilla warfare is bad and is terrorism, then what do you call the continental army? we were founded on Guerrilla warfare.

from agile writer:

The greatest guerrilla fighter in the American Revolution was General Francis Marion. He formed Marion's Brigade in 1780, with one hundred fifty tattered and penniless patriots. None received pay, food, or even ammunition from the Continental Army, but they terrorized the British Army in South Carolina and Georgia with a series of hit and run raids in the face of overwhelming odds. Marion and his men would strike swiftly and then vanish into the swamps. His tactics were so effective that he was nicknamed "The Swamp Fox" by one very frustrated British general.

Later in the war, Marion and his men combined with the larger regular army forces operating in the area to attack and defeat the British in South Carolina’s big cities. In 1781, he rescued an American unit that was surrounded by British forces at Parker’s Ferry, South Carolina, and received the thanks of Congress for his efforts. His victories eventually drove British forces out of South Carolina entirely.

o well this is ok I guess
11th July 2011, 21:18
v)I am embarassed / afraid to defend communism
vii)There are no comrades in my area. I would think these two go hand in hand.

We're isolated not by geographical space but by social space. We're more unwilling to talk about our politics rather than separated from those who would talk about them.

RedMarxist
11th July 2011, 21:24
v)I am embarassed / afraid to defend communism
vii)There are no comrades in my area.


V) Me too, yet I do it anyway. Be brave, and be prepared to get flak for your beliefs

Vii) On revleft you have plenty of comrades. and if your in HS like me, the odds of finding comrades at your school is zero. Try to spread socialism through groups, class, etc. but don't outright say I'm a communist

o well this is ok I guess
11th July 2011, 21:33
the odds of finding comrades at your school is zero. This is untrue.

There's always at least someone who's willing to take up the position of the left in any given social studies class.

If not the students, at least the teachers. I can't recall ever meeting a social teacher who wasn't at least left of center.

RedMarxist
11th July 2011, 21:42
well, what do you think my odds are of forming a socialist group? I have to get permission from my principal but I really want to do this.

my parents say it wont work blah blah blah no one cares etc

Tommy4ever
11th July 2011, 21:50
well, what do you think my odds are of forming a socialist group? I have to get permission from my principal but I really want to do this.

my parents say it wont work blah blah blah no one cares etc

Just say you want to create a group to discuss either politics or social issues (your choice on the words) or mabye even a reading group. DO NOT call it the ''commie club'' or something like that - this will just drive people away, will make you look foolish and might well not be allowed.

This might allow you to teach one or two people about socialism.

o well this is ok I guess
11th July 2011, 21:52
You want to form a socialist group within your school? Ok. Why exactly do you need formal organization for it?

RedMarxist
11th July 2011, 22:06
our principal does not allow anyone to form a new group without explicit permission. My mom told me people are scared of communism and won't allow a socialist group(but i can form a democrat group Dur da dur) and I'd get complaints from parents, and I have yet to get my dad's opinion.

I could try doing plan B: plastering posters promoting an unapproved socialist group to meet after school, completely anonymous all over school

OR i could do my other idea: a democratic assembly modeled after the soviets/Greek assemblies to debate school issues and whatnot. I'm SURE the principal would allow that.

The Idler
11th July 2011, 22:13
Hold your meetings officially outside of school (so don't plaster posters around) but speak to other students inside school about it. You might get a group together then you can talk between yourselves and recruit however you like. This kind of thing should be easier in the age of facebook, blogs and twitter.

Don't bother trying to conceal it within something as broad as "politics group" or "democratic assembly". You'll either get discovered if it really becomes a communist group and you're still holding meetings in school. Or else it will become watered down if it becomes a pluralist group. Principals aren't completely stupid.

o well this is ok I guess
11th July 2011, 22:17
Nothing has ever stopped students from talking about whatever they like during lunch break. So long as you can find like minded individuals there is no reason to gain permission to be a formal group.
The posters might cause a stir. Your principal probably won't like them being posted all around unapproved. But whatever. So long as there's no implicit leader or leading body he'd have to punish everyone who shows up, which would probably be unfeasible.

Hell, if you've got any left social teachers they'd be plenty willing to help find ways to defend you. They might even let you use their classrooms.

RedMarxist
11th July 2011, 22:33
Well, My idea for the assembly is to raise awareness about Greece/Spain, Syria, etc. As well as to challenge the administration and its policies

would i be punished by the principal for this? I plan to, if i do get permission(and im not going to be like hey can i form a group opposed to you?), make some "people power posters" it will be apolitical, but i may throw in some socialist themes slowly but surely.

would this get a large following in a high school setting, as we all know HS students are dumb and don't care about the real democracy protests in Greece or their lot in life.

furthermore, can the principal even punish me for speaking out against the undemocratic nature of schools/the administration? what can he/she do? suspend/expel me/ would my views fall under freedom of speech.

Manic Impressive
11th July 2011, 22:54
I am presupposing that the hypothetical young commie isn't a dumbass wannabe cool rebel, and will pick whichever organization thinks fits best his/her beliefs, according to the basic stuff read.
I'm drawing my conclusions from people I've met who joined the same party I did who I met while there and since I left. Also from young users on here who's first post is "what tendency am I?" as if they feel they have to belong to some little sect. I think there's quite a few young users on here who are not ready to choose a party to join and many who already have that don't have a good understanding of the basics of Marxism, but I'd never call them "dumbasses".



Well, maybe,maybe not.
I wasted a lot of time in a crap party, but i learned a huge amount of stuff.
If i hadn't joined that party, today i would be apolitical.
Again, i mention "if you know the core principles".

The #1 mistake most people do (myself included) is saying "Well i'll firstly read 1,000,000 books to get a spherical view on all, and decide"
So which is it? Did you study theory and then choose a crap party? Or did you join a crap party and then learn theory as you advise others to do? One of the statements is false.
How do you know that you would be apolitical if you had read a lot of theory, it seems as though someone reading a lot of marxist theory would find it hard to be apolitical.


We're in tears.
Oh how gracious of you

I think it's well established that "commie" = revolutionary leftist in revleft lingo.
No it's not. Being specific about terms avoids confusion.


I meant past attempts to establish communism are viewed by worthwhile and successful tries by some, horrendous monstrosities by others.
Wasn't that obvious?
Again, no, that's not what you said.

Black Sheep
12th July 2011, 12:14
Again, no, that's not what you said.

Also don't romanticise failed attempts at implementing communism, judge those attempts critically and refer back to Marx for why they went wrong.
That's what you said earlier, and i said what you considered failed attempts, other regard them as worthwhile attemps.Not saying that they think "communism was implemented!" , which is wrong by definition, but that it was a sound attempt, in the correct path.


So which is it? Did you study theory and then choose a crap party? Or did you join a crap party and then learn theory as you advise others to do? One of the statements is false.
How do you know that you would be apolitical if you had read a lot of theory, it seems as though someone reading a lot of marxist theory would find it hard to be apolitical.
Both are.I wasn't able to read everything about every tendency, but i was aware of the basic principles - i read some theory,and i joined the party (pun intended!).In my experience, joining a party that upholds whatever complete or not understanding of theory you have is the best way to get yourself started, and you can correct yourself or the membership status later.
But that's my opinion of course,if you disagree,write a paragraph and i'll append it at the first post.


No it's not. Being specific about terms avoids confusion.
It really is.Chill out.
The notorious Commie Club was a clique of marxists and anarchists here,so i regard commie as a general characterisation.