My friends are in denial

[Hawker]

My friends are in complete denial.They think that facism is like communism.I explained to them that facism in nothing like communism and that facism violated every laws of communism.They said that facism and communism is the same because they both have dictators,and I go like so,as long as they listen to what I have to say then I'm happy with the dictator.My friends Jay and David are both idiots,my friend David is completely patriotic and every time I tell the truth about US crimes against humanity and he refuses to believe me.I even told him about the US trade embargo with Cuba which was condemned by the UN,but the US still continues to do it.I told him about the US breaking tons of international laws.

When he said that Cuba could always get new trading partners I told him about a law which forbade companies to trade Cuba or else loose favor in the US market,his reply was"Well that was the companies choice not the countries"I go like are you even listening to me,It's either stop trading with Cuba or loose favor in the US market,his reply is"Well unleast they're not forced to do anyting."I go stupid,of course they're forced to do something,they're forced to stop trading with Cuba or loose favor in the American market,which I might add is one of the most luxurious market in the world,so it basically better not to trade with Cuba then being forced off of the Amercian market.So basically they were forced.

My friend Jay is just like David,a poor misguided drone of the government.Is there anyway of leading these mindless drones of the government into seeing the light?

[redstar2000]

This question comes up a lot on this board and the answer is always the same...

MAKE NEW FRIENDS!

You have no obligation to the congenitally stupid.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Bradyman]

I got friends that are crazy conservative so this is what I do. Instead of starting a heating conversation about Communism, I talk about morals and crap like that. Many of my friends are religious so I bring up the religious morals. Then I tell them what Socialism is instead of Communism because most don't know what Socialism is, but instead have a bad perception of what Communism is. That way they start sypathizing with communism.

[Urban Rubble]

They said they think fascism and communism are the same simply because both have spawned dictators ? Sorry, but you have some stupid friends.

Did you not mention all the Capitalist dictators like Hussein, Pinochet, Hitler, Hirohoto, Suharto, and Duvalier ?

[Hawker]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 13 2003, 11:51 PM
They said they think fascism and communism are the same simply because both have spawned dictators ? Sorry, but you have some stupid friends.

Did you not mention all the Capitalist dictators like Hussein, Pinochet, Hitler, Hirohoto, Suharto, and Duvalier ?
Yeah they said that facism and communism are both alike but facism has a racial edge to it.Even though when I explained to them that racism is forbidden in communist state,still they persue their idea that facism and communism are alike.Yeah they're stupid,but dude the dictators you mentioned aren't capitalists,they're literally just dictators.

[Anarchist Freedom]

yah i know kids who call me a george bush hater and shit well they say i wanna kill him. well you see this one kid who is fuckin braniac walks over to me saying shit about communism he is like hey communism is bad it doesnt help anybody but the bourgesis! i freaked ouT! and yelled at him and he left me alone but then this other kid hates me because i dont want george bush to be realected well i guess a catholic school can get kids like that 8 (


:che:

[Hawker]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 14 2003, 12:34 AM
yah i know kids who call me a george bush hater and shit well they say i wanna kill him. well you see this one kid who is fuckin braniac walks over to me saying shit about communism he is like hey communism is bad it doesnt help anybody but the bourgesis! i freaked ouT! and yelled at him and he left me alone but then this other kid hates me because i dont want george bush to be realected well i guess a catholic school can get kids like that 8 (


:che:
Yeah George Bush in nothing but a facist and a failure in life.

[Iepilei]

Gah. I know a few kids who are as such. Parents memebers of the Repub party, etc, etc. I usually just try to avoid political convos, even when they're attempted to be ignited.

[(*]

I hate to say this, but sometimes it just isn't worth arguing.
Let them live their little deluded lives, and after the revolution...shoot them in the head (I really like that phrase from Nagasaki!!)

[Urban Rubble]

Yeah they're stupid,but dude the dictators you mentioned aren't capitalists,they're literally just dictators.

No, they were Capitalists. If not, what economic system did they use ? Nothing ? Dictatornomics ?

[Hawker]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2003, 02:05 AM

Yeah they're stupid,but dude the dictators you mentioned aren't capitalists,they're literally just dictators.

No, they were Capitalists. If not, what economic system did they use ? Nothing ? Dictatornomics ?
Well they just used regular non-capitalist and non-communist economic system.

[Hawker]

Well I also have a friend named Morgan,he doesn't stand in any belief and plus he hates Hitler because he's a bit Jewish in his backgrounds.Think I can convert him to the cause?

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

Hawker, i think its often quite difficult to convert people to be for something there so confused about, most of these people will have only eva heard of communism when Red on that 70's show calls people commies! This is difficult to change because people only ever hear about it in a bad light, what you must do in order to convert people is say things you know will appeal to them(easy to do with minority groups,poor,etc.), just one or two things to get them interested, if they like what they hear, reffer em to here or another website or a book or something (depending on the individual).

[sc4r]

First you have to decide what sort of person you are talking to.

If your 'friends' are totally unamenable to reason, and have simply decided that what they want to be is far right conservatives, just because they think this is cool and will therefore not care whether what you say is right or not then dont bother.

If, on the other hand, they genuinely think they have thought it through, and there is any glimmer that they may listen to a clear enough argument then :

1. DO NOT try to batter away at them and simply deny what they say. That's just an argument, they'll simply entrench their position, and not even hear yours. Almost literally they will not hear it.

2. Instead say something like 'You are right that far too many communist movements have spawned dictators'.

3. And be honest say 'in fact socialism does have features in common with Fascism'; it does BTW.

4. say 'Socialism can be bad as well as good...Just as Capitalism can be'.

5. But what I support is the good version and this means ...........It works because ..... NOT JUST 'IT STANDS FOR'.

6. Admit the limitations freely (Socialism does mean that some people will be less rich than they are now for example, admit it) show that you have thought it through from both sides.

Obviously if you cant actually deliver that last part convincingly (as few can) then you wont get anywhere, but this would be your failing not theirs. It would say that you actually dont know anything beyond the Dogma yourself, and dont actually know what it is you support, or why.

It helps (rather obviously) to have a clear view of a type of Socialism that can work, and which actually does recognise the dangers of mutation into Fascism (or something like it), and a clear view of what could prevent it. It also helps to have a really clear, credible, answer to the question of how the economic side of it would work (Communism and Anarchism do not have any coherent answer).

What far too few Socialists/Communists seem to realise is that their arguments are rejected by many because those arguments actually are not very good, they are unconvincing because they rely on saying 'what socialism stands for' instead of 'how it works, how it produces the good things I am describing' IN TERMS THAT OTHERS CAN ACTUALLY UDERSTAND.

To get to the position where you can do this you actually do have to be critical of 'Socialism' and 'Marxism' yourself; spot the flaws, the problems, the dangers. If all you do is buy the Dogma and read socialist propaganda , then all you will do is convince yourself, never others.

But most importantly when you are trying to convince somebody to do something (in this case to accept Socialism) you NEVER directly confront an absolute decision they say they have already made. If they 'Socialism sucks', you should not even mention Socialism unitl long after you have convinced them of the validity of the content. Only when you have got them to say 'Yes I want equality of opportunity, I can see that a market system without accumulated wealth would work, I can see that direct democracy is feasible, I can see that Capitalism can cause prisoners dilemmas and lead to wasted effort as a consequence, Yes, I'd want a democratic system, ideally one where I had a constant input into those decisions, Yes I can see how the internet might help make this feasible. etc etc.' Only AFTER THAT should you even attempt to put the label SOCIALISM on what they have agreed to.

If what you want is for them to accept the concept described by the name 'Socialism' this will work. If what you are concerned about it that they put I AM SOCIALIST badges on without caring what it is, and admitting that you are their guru, then it may not.

Which do you want ?

Believe me I know what I'm talking about. Every single day of my working life people tell me 'Now before we start I want you to know that under no circumstances will I be doing a deal until next month or next year, if ever. I absolutely do not want to hear you even suggest that a deal today is possible, I have already decided that because....'.

Know what I say? I say 'Great, I'm glad you you cleared that up. That makes it totally plain to me where I stand'.

Know what else? 35% of those people do end up doing the deal today.

I do not start by challenging their decision, I first SHOW them why it might be a poor decision (without ever saying so) and ONLY THEN do I ask them to change that decision.

Best wishes.

[Kapitan Andrey]

I agree with redstar2000!!! :D

All my mates are non-political morons! :angry:

[Hawker]

Good Idea Redstar,but anyways I was talking to him(David) again and I was discussing guerrilla warfare with him and he said that it's terrorism.I was like 'what!?'.I said that guerrilla warfare isn't terrorism,sure it can be used by terrorists but it's not terrorism,the existance of guerrillas is to overthrow a government,those who have no intention of doing that but practice that are called militias.Then David starts to blurt out about some crap about guerrilla warfare to be terrorism when I said that in order to be successful in overthrowing a government you have to gain support of the people.Can somebody help me straigthen this dumbass out.

[Urban Rubble]

Well they just used regular non-capitalist and non-communist economic system.

That makes no sense, there is no "regular" economics. What did they use ?

[BuyOurEverything]

Guerrilla warfare is terrorism in the same way conventional warfare is terrorism. It inflicts terror. America was founded using guerrilla warfare (more or less.)

[Hawker]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 15 2003, 02:43 AM

Well they just used regular non-capitalist and non-communist economic system.

That makes no sense, there is no "regular" economics. What did they use ?
fine your right they did use a capitalist system just like every government in the world before the modern era.I guest that every government will have a capitalist economy.